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A new forum for sport? A new forum for games?

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:11 / 06.06.05
I also totally agree with Loomis. And I personally despise sport.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:24 / 06.06.05
I still have a problem with the antipathy towards discussion of sporting events.

It's not antipathy, though, it's apathy.

For me, it's not so much that I don't think sport should be discussed here, it's just that I dislike the idea that sport and videogames are synonymous with each other - they're very much not - which is a notion that having a combined area for the two would seem to reinforce. But it's not that big a deal that a combined forum would bother me particularly.
 
 
semioticrobotic
12:32 / 06.06.05
I tend to think the sport/not-sport issue will work itself out when the forum is up and running and when a culture is being established.
 
 
■
12:37 / 06.06.05
While I absolutely loathe having to watch or participate in sport, I think it does have a role on Barbelith as part of the whole game-playing package. I don't think anything along the lines of "my team's great, did you see that penalty, up Villa, Spurs are shit blah blah" would be of any use. I dp, however, think that looking at the notion of creative play (which is what sport is, just with rules), with discussions of the way in which sport impacts on and reflects psychology and sociology is an interesting one that falls under the remit here. In the same way we normally do discussion of the arts - where people normally expect a widening out into the bigger picture - why could we not expect something examining motivations and presentations of sport people?
However, I have just had a picture right now of Ganesh breaking down the ramifications of Paula Radcliffe's toilet breaks... perhaps it's not such a great idea...
 
 
Tom Coates
06:36 / 07.06.05
Yeah for me the two issues are quite clear - firstly that I don't really see the Sports / Gaming connection that strongly, although I can tell I'm in a minority, and secondly that the day-to-day intrigue of sporting news doesn't seem to me to be something we need a forum for and I'm nervous that it'll completely swamp the discussions that people actually appear to want to have. I'm not saying I won't do it, and while I agree that fundamentally I'm the person you have to persuade, I don't think of this place as being 'my' forum and neither should any of you. I just tend to think of myself as being the tedious boring one who tries to look at all the implications and possibilities before we do something that might bite us in the ass (because normally I'm the one who has to fix it afterwards).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:29 / 07.06.05
I think it's a pretty positive idea! When you delve into the two subjects fashion and art don't have that much in common outside of the visual/design aspects of the two. We haven't had a thread that crossed over the two boundaries since I've been moderating the forum but it actually works well with an increasing number of people reading and posting in it. We have one thread with 0 posts on the front page now and it's about an exhibition that hasn't even opened yet! That's a huge change in the last 12 months (sorry, any excuse, you can tell where my love lies but seriously look at the replies on page 3. We rarely get 2 replies now) and it makes me think that the potential forum that we're discussing here could work very well.

A games and play forum; A space for discussing tactics, individual games and participation. All those threads inviting people to join in Kingdom of Loathing, the word games that people start in Conversation could go there to! Paleface and Bryan have already started the first thread here and I think I could dig my teeth into it very happily. I say we stop talking and open up the new forum. I can't wait to start a thread on Lacrosse vs. Hockey in schoolgirl literature of the 20th century.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:32 / 07.06.05
And seriously, what are the implications of starting a new forum with such a wide spec? I hope no one's planning a huge sports vs. videogames war(!) and there's so much eagerness that I think there should be quite a lot of posting. Can anyone outline any potential bad?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
00:50 / 08.06.05
When you delve into the two subjects fashion and art don't have that much in common outside of the visual/design aspects of the two. We haven't had a thread that crossed over the two boundaries since I've been moderating the forum but it actually works well

I think the key difference is that it's generally accepted that fashion and art are different things, so people's opinions of one aren't going to be negatively affected by their opinions of the other.
 
 
lekvar
01:13 / 08.06.05
...the day-to-day intrigue of sporting news doesn't seem to me to be something we need..
I really couldn't agree with you more on this, but in the year-and-a-half I've been here I've only seen one thread even remotely similar to this. The people who were interested pitched in and the people who weren't let it go it's merry way. The season came and went and the thread dropped to the second page of Convo, never to be seen again.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:23 / 08.06.05
I think the key difference is that it's generally accepted that fashion and art are different things, so people's opinions of one aren't going to be negatively affected by their opinions of the other.

You conflate a game of hockey and Quake 3 (sorry a bit behind the times. Hell, did Quake 3 ever exist)?

I really couldn't agree with you more on this, but in the year-and-a-half I've been here I've only seen one thread even remotely similar to this

But barbelith isn't perceived as a place where posters are interested in sport. We're meant to be all geeky and academic but I know people on this board who are football fans, who practice Parkour, who have a secret passion for croquet, at least three keen cyclists... anyone ever in a little league team? Anyone want to discuss their hatred or love of cross country at school?? Oh wait, that's already been done... in a thread on typos.

Sport actually comes up here all the time, people just don't think about dedicating threads to it because there's no space for it and you can bet that videogames are played by about half the posters here. The more I think about this the better it works.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:27 / 08.06.05
You conflate a game of hockey and Quake 3 (sorry a bit behind the times. Hell, did Quake 3 ever exist)?

I don't, no, which I would have thought I'd made clear in my previous posts. Some do - including, if you read through it again, some of the contributors to this very thread. Most non-gaming people see videogames as sport for geeks, from my experience.

If you're wanting another reason why there's even an argument about whether sport should be included or not, though, I think that you've provided a pretty good one yourself - personally, I can't see this

Anyone want to discuss their hatred or love of cross country at school?

as being anything that wouldn't be better suited to Conversation. We don't need a second Conversation area specifically for games and sport - we need a Spectacle/Lab/Headshop/Switchboard area for them. If there's a new forum in the offing, it needs to justify its existence by being for threads that are at least up to the standard of those in the meatier areas of the board, and hopefully better than them in a lot of cases.

sleaze worries about another arts forum throwing Barbelith even more off balance than it already is. That's a valid concern, and the only way to try and protect against the addition of another arts section damaging the place is to ensure that the topics it contains are of a certain standard.

I really want to see the new forum come into being, but not if it's just going to be an extension of Conversation.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:47 / 08.06.05
Why do you think that will create problems? As long as people don't think that talking about a football match (not a Championship Manager match obviously) in a videogames thread is a good idea I'm not sure where the issue lies. The only trouble of that sort I can envisage is the type that occurred in the Murakami thread in B & L and no one seemed to mind that.

And I don't understand your dislike of a thread on cross country, frankly the pain I felt at being made to participate in a sport that sapped my will away is something that I don't think I can adequately express in a thread on typos. If anything I regard that degeneration as a reason to have a forum on the subject because there wasn't any real analysis on an issue that influenced all of us heavily at school. How many people here don't bother with physical exercise because so much of their formative experience was so off-putting?

If any of you have a case for a new revolution forum than put it across, if not then why suggest that we need another. I can't think of a subject as influential as those already covered (psychology perhaps but I'm certain we require more analysts and I dread to think what would happen with the love angst threads if there was a forum that actually welcomed analysis).
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:53 / 08.06.05
I think that it's a misconception which could end up suffocating - or, at least, damaging - discussion, if there are enough people here who believe it. It's unlikely, I'll admit, but it is possible - so far there's only a tiny proportion of the board who've posted to this thread, so we've no idea how the majority view either videogames or sport.

(Sorry, there's some more stuff to be added to my previous post - edited it before I saw yours.)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:15 / 08.06.05
Ah the joy of moderating the same forum, I've also moderated mine to try and answer yours though it might seem a little confused as my recollection of your request has now faded. It's like moderator wars, only nice.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
02:50 / 08.06.05
If anything I regard that degeneration as a reason to have a forum on the subject because there wasn't any real analysis on an issue that influenced all of us heavily at school. How many people here don't bother with physical exercise because so much of their formative experience was so off-putting?

You know, that'd be a topic with great potential, but it sounds to me like a significantly different one than anyone want to discuss their hatred or love of cross country at school?

I may not be explaining this very well.

If there's one thing that both sport and videogames do have in common (although this is much truer for the latter than the former), it's that hardly anybody spends time or energy trying to talk about them in any great depth, especially on the Internet. Like you say, there's not any real analysis. That's why this forum could be a very good thing indeed. At the same time, though, it could also mean that a new forum *still* wouldn't be home to any proper analysis, because people are so unused to going into depth on these subjects. The norm is to talk about them as a sort of light entertainment with no underlying 'value' or meaning, and if we want to change that and make sure that it's not something that we're simply perpetuating or opening the door to here, we need to be really careful about very basic things. You (largely non-specific 'you', here, but using your example) want your thread to be a discussion about how negative experiences with the teaching of PE at early ages can affect the willingness to undertake physical exercise of your own accord later on in life? Then it's likely that you're going to have to go to a greater effort to set out the purpose of your thread than you would in any other area of the board bar Headshop, not just in the opening post, but also in the tile and abstract. The issue of proactive moderation again.

And if we're combining sport and videogames into one forum, which seems inevitable, then we've got to be even more careful about this, because the general level of videogame discussion is *far* less sophisticated or intelligent than sports discussion. We'll get away with the odd purely conversational sports thread in the new forum, but the problem then becomes one of trying to dissuade a flood of similar videogames-related threads. Because even on the best gaming fora that I'm aware of, that's more or less all there is. You'll maybe get a couple of people trying to look at a game or an issue surrounding gaming with some amount of depth every now and again, but those threads either die straight away or become about how "the graphics are sh8t" within a few posts.

In other words, a frighteningly large proportion of the videogaming community doesn't need much of an excuse to act like a bunch of idiots.

I'm probably worrying about this too much, I know, but I feel that somebody needs to be pointing out just how wrong this could all go. It might as well be me, seeing as I've also been so enthusiastic about what we *could* get from this, if it works.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
02:51 / 08.06.05
I promise not to edit that one.
 
 
Axolotl
07:13 / 08.06.05
Spatula, while I understand and share to an extent your concerns about the level of discussion in the new forum being pitched too low, surely such a forum can include threads of various levels of sophistication? Film, TV and Theatre for example has both serious threads and fluffier ones talking about spoilers and so on. As long as the more serious threads aren't rotted is there really a problem? Assuming that is we avoid descent into "Nintendo is teh gay!!!" hell which is (I hope) fairly unlikely.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:30 / 08.06.05
but it sounds to me like a significantly different one than anyone want to discuss their hatred or love of cross country at school?

So we make sure we're concise and practice close moderation over the forum to make sure people outline things properly for the first couple of months. Just because we throw away titles in a thread like this doesn't mean we throw them away in a new forum- a lot of people posting in this thread put far more stock into clarification and specificity than the rest of the board.
 
 
semioticrobotic
12:41 / 09.06.05
Nina: So we make sure we're concise and practice close moderation over the forum to make sure people outline things properly for the first couple of months.

Yes. For instance, if someone posts the score of last night's game with a bunch of jibberish about the other team sucking hose water, then a moderator might kindly step in, say the thread would be more appropriate in the Conversation, and then move it there. A few experiences like this will develop a posting culture for the forum, and then moderation will be less necessary.
 
 
Loomis
13:31 / 09.06.05
Just floating an idea here, so bear with me ...

If there is a concern that gaming is too different from sport, how about two new fora, one for gaming and associated theories and ideas, and another for sport, exercise, health, diet, food, general outdoorsiness from gardening to building your own eco-friendly dwelling, etc.

Or would that steal too much from the lab?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:52 / 09.06.05
That's really helped me shape my main objection to the two being together, actually, because it makes the issue of forum placement more significant. If we were to have a videogames-only area, it'd be within the Spectacle grouping, yeah? A sports-only area, on the other hand, would possibly be best suited to the Creation/Gathering sections.

That's not just an attempt to try and prevent any major alteration in board balance, by the way, but an honest, insitinctive thing. It just makes sense for me that sport should go with the sections of the board that could be held under the loose banner of 'Participation', rather than 'Spectacle', especially given the types of sport-related thread ideas that have been put about so far.

I just don't see many people going for the idea of two new sections rather than one, Loomis. It's certainly something worth considering, though - if not as an idea that's currently viable, then at least something that we're open to the possibility of in future if the combined forum gains enough interest and decent threads to justify it.
 
 
semioticrobotic
16:05 / 09.06.05
I agree, Spatula. Loomis' idea is novel, but, as you say, we don't want to initially bite off more than we can chew. Perhaps we will eventually see a need for two fora instead of one; for now, though, I think we need to focus our efforts on getting this one forum launched (we're so very close).
 
 
invisible_al
17:29 / 09.06.05
I still think there's enough meat there for the one forum and as for the sporting threads, there's already been a few ways of handling match specific threads discussed, namely have league/sport threads that roll onwards with specific threads for specific games that warrant it.

Can we just give it a go and see what happens?
 
 
Grey Area
18:21 / 09.06.05
Can we just give it a go and see what happens?

Seconded. Along with volunteering to moderate this forum, if and when it is set up.
 
 
semioticrobotic
18:54 / 09.06.05
Third. I'm a newbie making a list of thread topics.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:57 / 09.06.05
I'd like to volunteer for mod duties, too, I think. If anyone's worried that this'd mean I'm moderating too many areas, I'd be perfectly happy sacrificing one in exchange.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:58 / 09.06.05
Totally give it a go and see what happens.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
07:06 / 10.06.05
Another vote for trying this -been following this topic and the ideas people have mooted for threads all look interesting!
 
 
The Strobe
08:23 / 10.06.05
I'd like to volunteer for this, and also would volunteer for mod duties: the fora I mod already are not taking up too much of my time, and I'm very keen to see this work.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:24 / 10.06.05
Okay, so I'll try and set this up some time in the next twenty four hours or so. Before I do so, can I ask people to go and think up (and even start writing) some interesting threads to get the thing launched with?
 
 
Tom Coates
09:28 / 10.06.05
BTW - this is probably going to result in some different colour schemes around the place. they probably won't be ideal from the start, so can people please promsie me that they wont' go ballistic on my ass.
 
 
The Strobe
09:31 / 10.06.05
Have some threads I could begin, Tom, but unfortunately (because I moved house) have no net connection at home. Might PM some ideas to Spatula, or try and get to Foyles to skank some wireless...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:06 / 10.06.05
I'm trying to write up something along the lines of the nature and limitations of narrative structure in games, but obviously it needs to be a bit more coherent than that...
 
 
Grey Area
10:37 / 10.06.05
I've got a sports/politics related question on physical education in secondary schools, inspired by Nina and Spatula's posts above, floating about my head that I'll try and get together.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:36 / 10.06.05
Paleface> If you want to PM me some thread ideas then feel free. I'd be perfectly happy to try and make them into opening posts - it's not like I've currently got anything better to do, after all - but they're your ideas, so I wouldn't be able to guarantee that you'd end up with exactly the threads you were hoping for. 'Sup to you.

Just going back to something Haus suggested earlier on in the thread about transfering some existing threads into the new forum, could I ask that we don't do that? Number of reasons.

Firstly, those threads will have been shaped to fit in with their surroundings and moving them into the new section might prevent it from finding its own voice naturally. Secondly, they might put some people off posting to it - ties in with what's been said about the Headshop recently about new posters constantly being refered back to long-dead threads. Potentially even more damaging here, as it could put off a lot of people who previously had no interest in talking about this stuff, but were considering putting their toes into the water. Thirdly, doing so might just stifle discussion - not just new discussion on those subjects, but discussion full stop.

Same goes for the 'What videogames' thread. I think it'd be in the new forum's interest if that was locked and left where it is, rather than moved. It's a one-thread-fits-all solution and the new area will make it entirely unnecessary.
 
  

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