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A new forum for sport? A new forum for games?

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13:54 / 14.06.04

Do we need a Spectacle forum for the discussion of sport and related stuff? I ask because some people like sport, and we don't have a forum about it, and I guess although I'm a big geek and don't see the point, I guess well some people might and stuff.

15:19 / 14.06.04

Personally I'd yell "nooo!" and not just because I highly prize Barbelith's existence as a relatively sport-free haven.

But outside of my own feelings - What could it offer that you couldn't get at any one of hundreds of dedicated sports fora?

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:32 / 14.06.04

That isn't outside your feelings, Sleaze. The answer to that is precisely the same as the answer to "what does this offer that dedicated Music/Magick/Current Affairs/Film fora do not", which is the company of members of Barbelith. That's it.

A more salient question might be what one would gain from having a sport forum that would be better than just having occasional sports threads in the Conversation. One answer would be that the sportophobic would therefore be spared the horror of even having to look upon such threads. Would there be enough of a critical mass to justify a forum, though? Even the quieter fora are historically founded - why create a new, largely empty forum, if not to spare the wilting violets from the rough boys.

It occurs to me that at present martial arts threads tend to end up in the conversation or the Magick, and on occasion there has been a case made for a gaming forum - most notably by the one-per-forum trollapalooza way back when. So, could there be a case for a "Sport, martial arts, gaming and videogames" forum - Funtime, or something similar? This would also have the hysterical effect of combining in a single thread the video gamers, the role-playing gamers and the bull-necked thugs who pantsed them without mercy at school...

15:54 / 14.06.04

So, could there be a case for a "Sport, martial arts, gaming and videogames" forum - Funtime, or something similar?
I'd say this was a fine idea. If it was. Which it is. So I will.

15:59 / 14.06.04

I think a broad forum called something like The Games would be a sound idea. The 'What Videogames Are You Playing?' thread alone already seems more forum- than thread-like; add to that the exisiting sports threads, threads on martial arts, word-games, Mafia etc, and I'm sure it'd have a broad enough base to support its own premises.

18:43 / 14.06.04

The Arena.

I'm not sure it's necessary, but if it comes to be, I think it should be called The Arena.

18:53 / 14.06.04

Goddamn you, you Colonial tabloid poet. I was just going to suggest the Arena, and that it should be full of gamey fun, like football and computer games and wrasslin' and, as soon as I pluck up the courage to admit here on Barbelith to my love of the greatest of country pursuits, fox hunting.

So, yes, I shall sullenly second the formation of The Arena.

20:27 / 14.06.04

The answer to that is precisely the same as the answer to "what does this offer that dedicated Music/Magick/Current Affairs/Film fora do not", which is the company of members of Barbelith. That's it.

That's part of what I was going to say. As far as video games discussion goes, I can get it elsewhere. Unfortunately, the places I can go for that suffer from some of the standard message board problems, which Barbelith generally doesn't (on its better days) - casual acceptance of racism and the like. You can get a high standard of discussion on them, but it can be hit and miss. Others suffer from being too limited - the SHMUPS board, for example, is great for shmup-related discussion, obviously, but that's all you get.

So part of me would like to see an area specifically for these discussions on Barbelith. Currently, those of us who are interested seem to be pretty well-disciplined in limiting video game talk to the one thread, but it's a bit of a ridiculous situation. You can end up with four or five different discussions taking in place in the one thread, you feel an obligation to reply to all posts so that nobody gets the impression that they're being ignored, and so on. Try limiting all film-related talk to one thread and see it come crashing down.

On the other hand, I'd be wary of pulling the balance of the board even further off-kilter than it already is.

Tempted to suggest trying it out for a short period of time, seeing how it affects things. As long as it's set up with the proviso that it may well only be a temporary section, you'd be able to kill it if you found it to be doing more harm than good.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:55 / 14.06.04

So, is it that people have been just aching to have long detailed discussions about sport but have felt restricted because of the lack of an appropriate forum to bring them up, unless they're Haus and so start the occasional thread in the Conversation? I don't really object to it, but I think if it's put in it should go close to the 'Art & Design' thread and the 'Books' thread as I really don't think there's going to be much going on.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:27 / 14.06.04

Certainly. Barbelith used to be a place where people read books, and now is less so. Books has a historical imperative. Personally, I'm not sure that a "Funtime" forum would get a lot of traffic, so perhaps it is best kept in the Conversation, since it lacks the same historical argument.

(I am sure that Flowers is far too well-read to have mistakenly undertaken to believe that I am responsible for starting lots of threads about video games, role-playing games and martial arts, so is talking about a pure "Sport" forum, as the thread began)

I don't really see why sports-and-nothing-but would need to exist outside the Conversation, unless the volume of threads got disturbing, unless people were disturbed by their presence in the Conversation in and of itself. Ask yourself what makes Barbelith easier to navigate.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

09:15 / 15.06.04

Yes, I realised I mistyped but forgot to edit.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:54 / 15.06.04

No problem - I think we all agree that there's not much point in a pure sport forum, since only about half a dozen to a dozen people want to talk abut sport. Maybe another dozen for video games, perhaps half a dozen for martial arts, some tabletop RPGers...

I don't know. Is there a good argument? Or should we keep it in the Conversation? I imagine it would be at the Comic Books end of the Spectacle...

13:30 / 15.06.04

Upon a bit of thought, I have to say that I do love the fact that martial arts is part of the Temple. It seems to make that a stronger, broader forum overall.

And Sax, you know I love you. Especially when you pout.

Goodness Gracious Meme

09:44 / 16.06.04

Now Grant, that kind of thing belongs in the Arena.

What others have said really, on why? I really like the 'level' of conversration about football/cricket/sport I get here. but I don't think that even with video games/martial arts/sports there's enough to warrant another forum. Perhaps if the spectacle ever gets re-jigged, as is discussed periodically, putting 'sports/games' into a spectacle sub-forum might be an idea...

11:52 / 16.06.04

No, no, and again no.

We had a similar discussion about needing a videogaming forum, and came to a flat 'no' for conclusions. Then it was suggested it could cover all gaming, including RPGs, etc, and it was still no. It might even have been mooted than that it include sport, and again no.

Nothing has changed bar the fact that there are about four more football-related threads on the board than normal because of a large competition happening in Portugal.

So I say: no.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:12 / 16.06.04

I'm with Paleface here (and many others, it would seem, but I can't see the rest of the thread as I type, so short-term-memory-crapness prohibits me from naming names).

Apart from anything else, I drunkenly began a post about my hatred of football-related culture the other day. Where would that have gone? If it went in a Sport forum, it would probably have garnered no responses, other than a swift dressing-down (ooh, Matron). In Conversation, it would have got lame very quickly if all the people who LIKED sport had somewhere else to talk about it and didn't figure it was worth responding to a sport-hater's thread in the Convo. (For comparison- an "all magick is shit" thread in the Conversation probably wouldn't provide much of a discussion. An "all magick is shit" thread in the Temple would be given short shrift.)

There's yeah, maybe a few extra Convo threads. And yes, while I may (indeed do) hate sport, I love videogames. But the couple of videogame-related threads there are have seemed sufficient so far.

I mean, yeah, if there's enough interest if we throw all the things into one, it could be worth a forum. But if it became a "ghetto" forum it could rob those of us (and those of "them"- by "them" I mean those weird people who LIKE sport

) of a free-for-all to discuss stuff in a fun way.

I LOVE videogames. But I don't hang out on specialist videogame forums for a very good reason- they tend to get a bit weird about it, and I get scared... (not sure if the same's true for sport, but then, I wouldn't be).

Tryphena Absent

13:29 / 16.06.04

You can start a Games forum but I won't be going in there.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:59 / 16.06.04

Videogames and ROTFLOLARP aside, I still don't quite understand why the topic of sport is thought to be inadequately covered by the Film & TV forum. We watch the sport on telly, and to my knowledge there has never been a Barbelith thread where people were posting from the perspective of having attended a live sporting event or having played in one, so why not? Imposing a distinction between "something which is taking place anyway and just happens to be televised" and "an actual television programme" seems a bit arbitrary to me (especially in the world of reality TV), and also seems to wilfully ignore the rather interesting question of how important television is in making something like a Euro or World Cup such a big deal, nationally.

14:36 / 16.06.04

It's not arbitrary. It boils down to the fact that FTV&T is for discussing the creative, artistic side of things that are conveyed to the masses through theatre, tv and the cinema.

A thread that discusses the way in which the televising of a football tournament (or similar event) increases the perceived importance of the event would probably go into the Head Shop (cultural studies, social psychology, etc).

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:52 / 16.06.04

Well, it could go in TVF&T - that's a judgement call> I think general threads on sport probably shouldn't go in FTV&T, even if they are being watched on TV, just for ease of use - if I was looking for a Euro 2004 thread, I wouldn't do it in FTV&T. Conversation makes more sense...

16:11 / 16.06.04

You can start a Games forum but I won't be going in there.

I don't think anybody was suggesting that attendance would be compulsory.

18:33 / 16.06.04

Then how will the lions be fed??

Our Lady Has Left the Building

19:39 / 16.06.04

Is raelianautopsy still around?

19:41 / 16.06.04

With the corpse of any swottish, non-Gamey individual who wanders in by mistake, thinking it's the Equine Studies room. There may not be much meat doing the rounds, but it'll be that much sweeter when it does appear.

Would you like to see this sort of forum on Barbelith? Maybe.
Would you find a use for this sort of forum? Yes.
Do we *need* a new forum? No.

20:52 / 16.06.04

I don't really think that there's a need for such a forum myself. I'm not too bothered by the presence of mega threads in which many different things are discussed, because my perception is that individual issues are not discussed for very long and don't always merit their own threads... though it could be that the threads' existence puts people off posting new threads specifically on one topic.

10:26 / 17.06.04

Well, I would quite like a forum but I don't know how well it'd work on Barbelith. I have to take issue with the idea that sport takes place on the telly though - I'd be much more interested in a thread about doing stuff rather than watching it.

semioticrobotic

23:53 / 01.06.05

In accordance with Smoothly's response to this thread, in which I asked for some direction when wishing to start threads about videogames (and gaming in general), I'd like to dredge up the Should-We-Add-A-Gaming-Forum debate.

It's been a year since the last post wound up the discussion/debate about the matter, and I'm wondering if the climate of the board has changed in any way that would allow for the addition of a forum in which to discuss gaming.

The general consensus of the board a year ago seemed to be "no" -- but not an adamant and irreversible "no." So I bring the issue to the fore once more.

I'll begin by saying I'd really like to see a forum for the discussion of gaming and social issues surrounding the phenomenon of gaming. By saying "gaming," I am willing to grant the inclusion of videogames, MMORGs, role playing games, board games, and sports.

I would, however, prefer the forum be for discussion of "serious" gaming issues or ludological theory/philosophy. "What Are You Playing" threads are fine, but I don't think they should be the main focus of the new forum.

Other topics could include help for those beginning to learn new games/gaming systems.

New thoughts?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:24 / 02.06.05

The sort of thread you want to start wouldn't be out of place in the Headshop.

I don't know whether it's in Tom's powers to create and delete new fora at the moment or whether that's something that we'd need Cal for, but in my humble opinion, the only way a new forum would be created is if a need for it was demonstrated, with a number of threads that don't sit well in the Conversation or the Head Shop etc... At the moment we have a 'what are you playing' and a 'football' thread and that seems to be all anybody wants, if it were up to me, and thank God it isn't, I'd want to see loads of game/sports threads before I'd create a new forum just to put them in.

After all, by threads alone there would seem to be a more pressing need for a late shift forum than a sport and games one...

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:28 / 02.06.05

The sort of thread you want to start wouldn't be out of place in the Headshop.

Indeed, such threads have been started before in the Head Shop, on violence, the treatment of women and other salient matters. If there isn't a critical mass for peoplet o discuss all aspects of videogaming, I certainly don't see a case for a forum covering a single aspect of videogaming. Head Shop for philosophy/sociology, laboratory for tech, A/F/D for design and art, F/TV/T for "Wing Commander - the Movie"... and so on.

11:14 / 02.06.05

Use of the forum entirely depends on what you call it. If you call it the Arena, it's a much freer space than 'Sport and Videogames' because the Arena feels a bit like most leisure pursuits would fit there. Threads about acting, threads about that ace Pirate card game with the pop out ships, and even threads about cricket. If you must.

If there were such a forum, I for example, would be much more likely to post about gaming in it. Currently I don't post in the videogame thread because it feels really hardcore and techie and my little Simcity questions don't seem to fit so well there.

At the moment any sport questions I have remain unwritten because it seems pointess to start a thread (which will probably sink really quickly over in Convo) on them. It wouldn't be pointless 'The Arena'.

Plus, the threads in the Headshop can feel daunting. It's asier to talk about things in forum specific spaces than the very regulated Headshop.

12:45 / 02.06.05

Currently I don't post in the videogame thread because it feels really hardcore and techie and my little Simcity questions don't seem to fit so well there.

That was never the intention - if anything, I *want* to get more casual gamers talking about games and posting to that thread. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy, lula - casual gamers don't post to the thread because there are no casual gamers posting to it. And, personally, I'd much rather be having games-related discussions with people who don't play them all the time than I would certain of the self-confessed hardcore.

Wasn't always the case. When Ellis started the first of those 'What Videogames' threads, a far greater spread of members took part in it - Nick, bio, Cholister, Sally, fridge, Saveloy. Now there's just the same four or five people talking to themselves. I don't really understand why that changed.

There is room here for a new forum, imo. It couldn't be any less busy than AF&D, the creation of which always baffled me for exactly the same reasons that people like Flowers don't see a need for a gaming forum - all of the arguments against creating the latter could have been used against the creation of the former. The only difference that I can see is that 'art' and 'design' aren't sniffed at in the same vaguely snobbish way as 'videogames'.

I think that what we've got right now is a bunch of people who would have some interesting things to say about the medium if they didn't feel that the only others with that interest were a small bunch of geeks. It's almost like the fact that you play a game is a dirty little secret on Barbelith.

Lula, if there were a forum specifically for this, would you be more likely to post your questions and comments in there? Are there others who feel the same way?

12:55 / 02.06.05

All of that being said, the one argument against having a gaming forum on the board is that I've got a horrible feeling that it'd require some hefty moderation so as not to let the level of discussion drop to the same sort of levels of fanboysim and/or pathetic negativity as certain threads in FTV&T and Comics occasionally tend to succumb to. There's a pretty good chance that a Videogames forum would be even more likely to attract that sort of frustrating rubbish.

Doesn't have to be that way, though. I get the feeling that those arguing against a new forum are doing so because the only games discussion they've seen has been on those boards that *do* make being a gamer a bit of an embarrassment and they've come away from them believing that having any threads that treat the medium in a slightly more mature fashion is an impossibility - that, I think, is what Stoatie's getting at with his

I LOVE videogames. But I don't hang out on specialist videogame forums for a very good reason- they tend to get a bit weird about it, and I get scared

post.

And the thing is, as long as there's nobody making an effort to change that, they'll be right. Self-fulfilling prophesy again. Done properly, moderated properly and with a requirement that people think before they post, there's absoltuely no reason why a gaming forum *has* to be a bit weird.

14:10 / 02.06.05

"Lula, if there were a forum specifically for this, would you be more likely to post your questions and comments in there?"

Yes I definitely would. I've got lots of things to say about videogames and men, videogames and women, videogames and kids, videogames and women watching men kill people and why it's strangely fascinating even though we don't want a go ourselves, why the world has suddenly become a real life version of Simcity4000, how to get a roundabout in Simcity, the relative merits of the creatures in Black and White, what the deal is with those chicken things in Half Life...I could go on...

And that's not even taking into account threads about Archery, about Pirates (which everyone, everywhere should play) the best aerobic exercise, Ta'i chi, Ashtanga yoga...ya ya ya.

I've got lots to say in a forum like 'The Arena.' I'm not saying any of it anywhere else though, because I really think we should have one!

As for A,F&D; I read it everyday. I think a fair few of us do. It's specific I suppose, but OCD'ly that's one of the things I like about 'Lith. It's got systems, things have a correct order and you know where you are.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:32 / 02.06.05

Well, I don't object because I think gamers would be bringing down to the tone of Barbelith, it's a bit late to worry about that with Morph around, I'm not convinced that the case (which currently seems to be that Olulabelle doesn't want to talk about this in the existing threads) has been made but it's not like I'm going to leave in a huff about it.

I wonder if Tom is able to create a new forum?

15:10 / 02.06.05

LOL. I don't not want to talk about it, I would just like a games type forum, that's all so I was being silly about not sharing those threads until we had one. And the videogames thread is techie and a bit scary.

It's a topic that comes up over and over again and I do think it would be used. And the more I think about it, the more I think it's odd that there is nowhere for leisure pursuits other than intellectual or artistic ones to go. (Please don't call me on this, what I mean is we have places for things like art, film, theatre, galleries, reading, writing, and music, only I just can't immediately find the right words.) We have forums for indoor things and places to talk about those, but nowhere for any physical pursuits. Any threads on sport or gaming have to drift around being randomly placed.

Barbelith is divided up into intellect and art. But lots of people here also game, or do some sort of sporting activity.

I think the main objection seems to be that it will 'lower the tone' of Barbelith, which is blatant snobbery and ridiculous. As a board we manage not to do that everywhere else so why would it suddenly occur there?

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