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MAX Punisher

 
  

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Spaniel
08:38 / 05.06.07
I must reread that arc and come back and comment
 
 
Feverfew
18:38 / 08.06.07
I think a while ago I picked up an isolated single issue of Punisher MAX out of sheer curiousity, and having read "Welcome Back, Frank" up to "Confederacy of Dunces", my immediate thoughts were "Oh, look, it's the Punisher, just with more swearing and blood". If memory serves, it was in fact issue 12 of the MAX run, right at the end of the arc, making picking it up at random even more irrelevant.

However, today I've picked up trades 3, 4 and 5 (1 and 2) not being available) since the recommendations from the The Boys thread and this thread, and, well, damn.

I'm impressed by the writing style, and the topics, but more than this I'm impressed by Garth Ennis's ability to remain fairly serious with the material - but this may just be in comparison to seeing The Russian return as a woman and survive a fall off the Empire State Building.

And The Slavers? Well, I agree with what's been said here, but I have to say that it didn't impact straight away after the first read. It was in fact around five minutes after reading it that the hairs went up on the back of my neck and my brain actually thought "wait a minute, what just happened?" Which sounds really cheesy, but I can't really emote the feeling of having finished that trade, somehow. Not yet, anyways.
 
 
The Falcon
22:32 / 08.06.07
Yeah, I don't know that it's necessarily a massive success as a comic, formally, having reread it, but just as a fictionalisation, from - to be fair - a fairly large media outlet, of (what should be, given it's a >$7bil industry apparently - thanks, Punisher War Journal #7, for that fact. I really do learn everything I know from comics) a global and largely unspoken-of horror. It's the factual verbalisations that really leave you... just cold. And, yeah, second time about did nothing to make that last page feel like anything other so much as a kick to an already leaden gut.

It's a deeply troubling story, I think.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
12:40 / 09.06.07
I'm reading the Widowmakers story right now and I like it, but it's a little slow to get moving. Mostly it seems to consist of the widows sitting around their living room and fighting with each other. It's a good story, but I wonder if it'll read better in trades. Currently it feels a bit like it's spinning its wheels.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
12:48 / 06.07.07
Okay - I take it back. Final issue of WIDOWMAKER out and it's really great. This has been one of the better arcs on this book. Did anyone else read this one?
 
 
FinderWolf
14:15 / 06.07.07
I'm reading it, and yes, it's terrific. It's amazing to me how formuliac yet still engaging the Ennis Punisher story arcs seem to be. And many of his arcs have been pretty inventive in terms of how they twist the 'Punisher kills the bad guys' plot (I loved the first one where the US gov't tries to recruit/force Frank to work for the CIA and go after al Qaeda).

Ennis manages to take what is essentially a one-note character and somehow find the depth and variety in him... and make us care, even though the stories often basically go over the same 'wow, he's just seen so much DEATH!!!! He's so TRAGIC and MESSED-up!!!! But aren't we glad there's someone like him around to play out our vengeance fantasies against evil lowlifes' character bits.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
11:48 / 02.08.07
Just read issue #50 of THE PUNISHER and it was great - I finally feel like whatever arc Ennis has been following is speeding up and more and more pieces are falling into place. And this is an arc - read all the issues in one or two sittings and you'll see just how tightly constructed Ennis' run has been with a ton of overlap between characters, their relatives, their friends and avengers.

My one criticism is that I hate the Howard Chaykin art. I never thought I'd type that sentence, but I can't stand it. His layouts are workmanlike but not very original and his people all look like they have square heads wobbling on the end of skinny, stalk-like necks, with age and jowl-lines tattooed on their faces in heavy ink.

Also, did anyone else see that THE PUNISHER is getting yet another movie? Don't these guys learn? Without Garth Ennis writing the screenplay there's never going to be a motion picture version that works.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
12:34 / 02.08.07
I'm really not sure how I feel about this issue, Chaykin's art is really awful, I really hate Barracuda, and O'Brien having Castle's (of course, it doesn't have to be his, I suppose) kid and not mentioning it seems really weird.

Apart from that, the nuts and bolts of the writing was it's usual quality.

I re-read everything MAX Punisher recently, and am really loving the way Ennis is building a cast of characters and keeping the mythology tight. The dream in this episode was a good example. Getting injured in the first tour of Vietnam meant that he wouldn't be around for the third tour and the massacre at Valley Forge, and consequently would never have made the deal with whatever-it-was. Subtle.

I do wonder if Ennis is building to something, like a huge finale or if he's going to keep adding to and taking away from the Punisher Toybox for the rest of time. I'd be happiest with the latter I think.
 
 
Janean Patience
13:41 / 02.08.07
My one criticism is that I hate the Howard Chaykin art. I never thought I'd type that sentence, but I can't stand it.

Chaykin, back in the American Flagg days, used to be so, so good. His art was beautiful, dynamic, and infused with a design sense that comics hadn't really seen before. He, Frank Miller, and Walt Simonson shared a studio... But in his recent work-for-hire stuff he's been so bad, like a parody of himself done by Mad magazine, that it hurts me to see it. That New Avengers issue was particularly painful. It can't, surely, be long before editors stop hiring him.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
19:12 / 02.08.07
"O'Brien having Castle's (of course, it doesn't have to be his, I suppose) kid and not mentioning it seems really weird."

I read it this morning and I'm vaguely captivated by the idea that the kid is Tommy's. (Ennis confirmed in a newsarama interview that O'Brien is Kathryn McAllister from Hitman.)

But that's just silly.

However... wow, I'm continually shocked at how much I like this book.
 
 
wicker woman
08:33 / 02.11.07
Was inspired to bump this by the The Boys thread, and just because I think it deserves it occasionally.

I'm really not sure how I feel about this issue, Chaykin's art is really awful, I really hate Barracuda, and O'Brien having Castle's (of course, it doesn't have to be his, I suppose) kid and not mentioning it seems really weird.

Apart from that, the nuts and bolts of the writing was it's usual quality.


Agreed.

As far as Barracuda goes... I can't wait for this arc to be over, and if the gods are merciful, he won't be in the comic anymore at the end of it. I tolerated him at first, but I have grown to hate him (and not in the way I think Ennis intends me to.) It seems more and more that he is not at all his own character and is intended to be nothing more than Frank's polar opposite, right down to the fact that he's black. Even the fact that he's black doesn't matter, except that he's a walking stereotype. It seems like he got drug back out of the closet because Garth needed a backing for this arc.

Also, and mind you, I'm not exactly an expert on guns, but how does one survive a shotgun blast to the chest at close range? Some of the people in this series, Frank included, have survived some pretty crazy stuff (Pittsie is pretty much tops on that list), but bringing Barracuda back after his getting hit with a shotgun and then tossed into shark-infested waters seems really contrived. Being hardcore is one thing; big pointy shark teeth are quite another.
 
 
This Sunday
09:18 / 02.11.07
What was the shotgun loaded with? That may sound silly, but really, it matters in a sense of Big guy/Suspension of disbelief.

I mean, in real life is one thing, but this is the same Punisher, in essence, who fought the Russian. And Ennis isn't generally known for being able to keep a serious tone or tell a straight story for any considerable length, without winking, twitching, or otherwise revealing his awkward hand. And making a dick joke out of it.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:00 / 02.11.07
I read it this morning and I'm vaguely captivated by the idea that the kid is Tommy's. (Ennis confirmed in a newsarama interview that O'Brien is Kathryn McAllister from Hitman.)

Was there a Crisis and no-one told me?
 
 
_Boboss
11:24 / 04.11.07
but but - i think this was answered in the comic: sharks who've just gorged on a yachtfull of hedge fund managers or whatever, just aren't very dangerous. and anyway, it's not really any less plausible than frank's survival against those same sharks a couple issues before, is it? and (being no expert either) i think it's quite possible for a shotgun, at close range and even with heavy shot, not to fatally penetrate a well-muscled sternum.

i'm not really sure how barracuda's a stereotype either. a charming, indestructible supersmart killer with a happygolucky gangsta disposition? maybe it's a stereotype that i'm not familiar with. the only character i've come across who's similar is addibisi from oz, though there are key differences that make barracuda less of a stereotype than he. i think there's also been close to some genuine character moments with him in recent issues, with the revelation that he's not all that younger than frank, and his low self-esteem when he realise he's still not the icon frank is. following the recent frank=nam's captain america, it's interesting to speculate that barracuda could be the captain america of the post nam era, when the usarmy basically became enforcers for the cocaine trade in south america. i dunno, could well be wrong, but i just think he's an amusing, chillingly effective villain really, the kind of thing that the punisher's entire character history has been largely marked by an absence of, and therefore very welcome. the miniseries sucked quite hard though, a real awkward companion tonally to ennis' extended run.
 
 
The Falcon
13:36 / 04.11.07
And Ennis isn't generally known for being able to keep a serious tone or tell a straight story for any considerable length, without winking, twitching, or otherwise revealing his awkward hand. And making a dick joke out of it.

Except for, basically - 'Barracuda' excluded - the entirety of his run on MAX Punisher. Or, indeed, his War Stories. Or Enemy Ace. I haven't read Battler Briton, but I imagine that too. Oh, and Hellblazer, excluding the inglorious 'Son of Man' return. Really anything he shows a modicum of investment in.

Except them.
 
 
This Sunday
15:09 / 04.11.07
Except them.

Except, those aren't really 'considerable length' are they? They're one-off stories or parts of a work of 'considerable length,' which goes right into my assertion, since he couldn't keep from doing it.

And there wasn't a modicum of investment in Preacher?

Don't get me wrong, I really like Ennis more often than many people do, and when he does play things straight in shorter works it can be beautiful stuff, I just don't see it as often happening.
 
 
The Falcon
15:32 / 04.11.07
Well, MAX Punisher is 51 issues (+ some, frankly, phenomenal specials, nary a joke to be found,) Hellblazer originally 43; I'd accept maybe 3 or 4 issues of either contained for the easy, deflatory outs that kind of marked (Hitman and) Preacher - which, yeah, sorry, you're right - as juvenilia, to an extent.

Apologies for the tone, it just seemed as though I was reading the same popular critique of Ennis that I've read a large number of times on Barbelith already.
 
 
The Falcon
15:43 / 04.11.07
parts of a work of 'considerable length,' which goes right into my assertion, since he couldn't keep from doing it.

And this isn't really very true at all - I don't have 'Barracuda' to refer to, but thirty issues in is I think something most readers would consider (2 1/2 hc collections) fairly considerable length before the "winking, twitching, or otherwise revealing his awkward hand. And making a dick joke out of it" really gets any play; I don't know that it, whatever it is, even does at this point* - it certainly does in the Barracuda miniseries, but this is ancillary material. (P.S. I'm very much inclined to agree that beyond 'really tough black guy' the character doesn't conform to any stereotype I'm aware of, and furthermore runs counter to several notional ones.)

*I mean, the book isn't entirely free of humour, but it does tend to be of the quite extraordinarily bleak variety. "Oh dear", etc.
 
 
This Sunday
15:51 / 04.11.07
No, I think my original assertion reads a bit too critical, or at least, harsher than I'd intended. And, I'd give a vote in Battler Britton's direction; it was good hard man does hard things comics, from what I remember.
 
 
Spaniel
16:46 / 04.11.07
In terms of people getting shot, I saw a documentary a few years ago in which a SWAT guy claimed that it wasn't unheard of for people to be shot multiple times and stay standing. He recounted an instance where they shot a fella 12 times and he kept on firing his gun in response.
 
 
_Boboss
18:31 / 04.11.07
whatever john woo..
 
 
wicker woman
07:22 / 05.11.07
i'm not really sure how barracuda's a stereotype either. a charming, indestructible supersmart killer with a happygolucky gangsta disposition? maybe it's a stereotype that i'm not familiar with.

I think his charm is derived largely from the fact that he's as wide as most people are tall, and that people are more intimidated than charmed by him.

I'm not saying the stereotype is a 7-ft. tall indestructible black man, I'm saying the stereotype is the black man with the gold teeth that speaks fluent 'gangsta' and has a hyper-obsession with proving just how masculine he is. And so on.

Actually, my biggest dislike of this storyline comes from the death of Yorkie. For me, at least, he was one of the best things to come out of the IRA arc.
 
 
wicker woman
07:37 / 05.11.07
In terms of people getting shot, I saw a documentary a few years ago in which a SWAT guy claimed that it wasn't unheard of for people to be shot multiple times and stay standing. He recounted an instance where they shot a fella 12 times and he kept on firing his gun in response.

Probably true, I would guess; from what I understand, put enough drugs in a person's system (or alternately, if their adrenaline is running fast enough), and they can stay up well past the point where they should've fallen down. This doesn't mean that they won't be falling down shortly. Or that the SWAT people tossed them into a shark tank afterwards.

Anyways. Normally, I don't expect extreme levels of realism from my comic books. But in this case, it really seems to me like Barracuda got dragged back out of the closet because he's the only character that's been able to go toe-to-toe with Frank physically and Garth wanted to write a 'beat-the-hell-out-of-Frank' story.

P.S. I may be making too light an observation of Barracuda's character. He just seems really pointless to me.
 
 
Spaniel
09:13 / 05.11.07
Well, regardless of what any of us think about the character he was pretty clearly always gonna be dragged back out the closet. He was just set-up that way. Garth must've known exactly what he was doing when he a) set him up as the hardest baddy evAr, and b) failed to kill him in the first arc. The logical inference is that Ennis was using the first arc to establish Barracuda's cred, and always intended to bring him back to confront Frank.

My opinion: the idea of a rock hard anti-Punisher hardly seems boring or redundant to me. Especially in ths comic, where villains seldom last more than a couple of issues.
 
 
_Boboss
18:21 / 05.11.07
agree about the affectiveness of yorkie's passing - his war-weariness made him probably the most approachable character in the book. his death, when he'd already had his exit speech really, was not strictly necessary, but i guess inevitable given the 'always consequences' ethos of the series as a whole. having him die was too good a gut punch to not throw really, for lots of reasons.

i suspect it's not the case about barracuda being dredged up purely for the sake of a fistfight with frank in this arc. it wouldn't be difficult for ennis to come up with another hardman character if one was required for a punchup. the whole series is marked by being careful about what the supporting and background characters are doing (like yorkie), with very little in the way of excessive cast-filling or loose plotting. lots of examples of this, from the appearance of pittsy's vengeful sister, to rawls or the man of stone, and the women in the widowmaker arc - part of what makes the book so gripping is the way it keeps a very tight leash on the ramifications of its own events, and doesn't allow characters to fall in or out of the series too easily. if ennis sticks around for many more arcs (i suspect the current one is his last*), i imagine the cop from widowmaker will reappear, for instance. and hey, we were very carefully NOT shown barracuda's corpse in the enron arc, which is basically comicstripese for 'i'll be back' - i think his reappearance here, and an attempt to make him a 'classic' recurrent archvillain, was always part of the plan. (i doubt he'll be recurrent beyond this arc though - ennis rarely leaves his characters behind for others to play with. and the story is building to a crescendo at this point, the climax of which will surely be his, hopefully very grisly, death.)

i think the point of the character is that, rather than being an antithesis (what would the opposite anyway? the facilitator? the congratulator?) , he's actually frank's superior on every level - younger, faster, meaner, probably smarter. but he doesn't have the devil or the legend in him, doesn't have the skull on his chest. i feel the familiar, light hearted clipse/wire/'hood movie-derived dialogue is used well as a counterpoint to his actual effectiveness as a threat - the way he talks isn't front or bluster, as expectation says it ought to be - he's as good as he says he is, which takes him out of the realms that you might otherwise expect the character to inhabit, if he was simply a stereotype.

i like the point about the necessity to prove his masculinity - i think this adds an interesting and original dimension in this context, because it's only since he met the punisher that there's been even the merest suggestion that he's not teh supreem manhard, the attempted reassertion of which is the real explanation behind his current vendetta. again, whether this makes him a stereotype, or if that itself is a negative here, i'm just not sure about. as for charming... well yes charming: the bit where he meets derot for the first time in the enron arc, and plays upon dermot's expectation that a big black guy wo's been in prison will only be after his precious white arse? that's funny, it certainly charmed me, although yes the people he meets in his fiction world are of course not charmed but intimidated, downright terrified. the lengths people will go to to hide how scared they are of him is one of the frequent points of 'humour' in his miniseries, if i recall correctly. 'Charismatic', with its dangerous implications, is probably a better word than charming.

as to the points about humour and comedy in ennis' work (and let me put down my pom-poms for a moment and say here that i have basically no time for his deliberately 'funny' pieces - never read the boys or his authority stuff, for instance) - one of the things i like about his style is that it reflects the fact that the real world, or at least my experience of it, is full of crap jokes, ironically amusing situations and low-rent pisstaking. the po-faced expression that mainstream US genre comics tend to walk around with is something he doesn't have a lot of time for, and that can be refreshing, and when ennis gets the mix right, like say in the recent hitman/jla, it works very well. i think it's worth remembering that his first extended comics work was writing judge dredd in 2000ad, which amongst its many facets is at its core a very skillful balancing of low comedy, high satire and cop show/action movie drama. the wagnerian tone of the strip was not something that the young, awed ennis always handled entirely successfully, but has left its traces over nearly all of his subsequent work. as i think this thread has established by now, the max punisher is clearly by some margin the best long work he's ever done, and the humour is very much backgrounded here. i don't think the introduction of barracuda, a nasty man in a nasty land who happens to have a sense of humour, is some kind of slip into rifle brigade territory at all. that he can smile while throwing an od'ing snakebitten woman off his boat, is not really comedic in the least, but a further ugly colour to add to the palette marked 'bloody grim'.



* when the quitting date is confirmed, i'll be turning the house upside down to find the trades and embarking on a good old-fashioned barbelith re-read of the entire series, including born and the one-offs and maybe even the fury series, with commentary in this here thread book-by-book. i hope some of youse will join me. i might even find duncan's metabarons books while i'm doing the search, won't that be amazing?
 
 
Spaniel
19:04 / 05.11.07
Only meant anti-punisher is so much as he's supposed to be same kind of hard as Frank, and that's unheard of this side of the Russian. It's a big bloody deal.
 
 
_Boboss
19:18 / 05.11.07
sure, i appreciate that's not what you were saying. sjust, i think a bit more thought and care has gone into the character's conception and execution than a standard 'the punisher's dark reflection in a broken mirror' cliche that is so often the formula for superbaddies.
 
 
wicker woman
04:25 / 06.11.07
Only meant anti-punisher is so much as he's supposed to be same kind of hard as Frank, and that's unheard of this side of the Russian. It's a big bloody deal.

Thanks, Vision. Now I'm picturing Barracuda with great big breasts. *ack*

You might have a point there, Thor, you might have a point. I'm still not inclined to like the character all that much, but maybe I shouldn't dismiss him so quickly.
 
 
Mark Parsons
05:29 / 06.11.07
I'm just getting up to speed on the series. Loved BORN and the HC collection of Tyger, Cell & The End. Currently digging into Mother Russia. Great, intense stuff. It's totally rekindled my Ennis appreciation after not having read him much since PREACHER. Actually, I think I like PUNISHER/Max a wee bit better (heresy!).

Is the current arc Ennis' last?
 
 
The Falcon
07:43 / 06.11.07
Well, it's not been declared as such, but yer LITG thinks he be leavin' soon; this seems either ultimate or penultimate, this arc.
 
 
Spaniel
09:32 / 06.11.07
Thanks, Vision. Now I'm picturing Barracuda with great big breasts. *ack*

Got me thinking, I can't remember exactly how the Max Punisher interfaced with Ennis's initial run. Was the Max run originally tied up in the MU, or was it always conceived as a stand alone entity?
 
 
The Falcon
10:38 / 06.11.07
There's stuff like... Yorkie is in Ennis' mainstay 'troubles' issues of the Knights run and the social worker whose name I never recall (Jenny?) is in the horrible underground cannibal man arc, which features Garth's regularly recurring 'suffocating under fatness' motif.
 
 
_Boboss
21:46 / 06.11.07
despite what i said upstairs, i think this probably is likely the penultimate arc. there is one thread left hanging which doesn't seem likely to be wrapped up in the current story: who fed barracuda the intel.?

(i think a max universe kingpin would be a fine finale.)
 
 
Mark Parsons
04:46 / 07.11.07
Holy GOD, I just finished Mother Russia (!!) and Up is Down. I am floored. They're un-f***ing believable!

How do the rest of the arcs hold up? (Like I'm not going to know by week'e end) It's hard to imagine Ennis sustaining this kind of intensity, but then again...
 
 
The Falcon
10:19 / 07.11.07
Oh man, 'Slavers' next. Steel yourself, Parsons. It makes 'Mother Russia' look, in terms of brutality, like a fieldmouse.
 
  

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