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Underground > Switchboard >

ID cards in the UK

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Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:00 / 07.11.06

Blair's latest tack is to claim ID Cards are the spirit of 'modernity', modernity being the quality of being modern.

An "action plan" would be published by the Home Office in December to "explore the benefits" people could get from ID cards in 10 years' time, he said.

So ID Cards have been on the hot plate for several years now, there's been legislation through Parliament on this and only now the Government is investigating what ID Cards could do?

This is, of course, not the situation at all. All this is is that the Government currently have to force through a pointless plan because they figure it's less embaressing than to u-turn but have run out of arguments as to the benefits because all of them have been revealed to be false. New arguments please!

I'm hoping that before he leaves office Blair claims the argument for ID Cards is that they are 'post-modern' and that everyone will be forced to carry around half a dead shark tattooed with the names of everyone they've ever slept with.

Tabitha Tickletooth

07:41 / 07.11.06

On the positive side, well done BBC for nice use of scare quotes. The article linked to above does read with a nicely mocking tone because of them.

On the fuck off you bastards side, as a filthy foreigner, I feel yet again personally insulted. So as a non-EU resident, I'm what? More likely to be a terrorist and steal your identities? Because that's what you're effectively suggesting, TB, by lumping immigration, terrorism and identity fraud together and suggesting that it would be a good idea if I was restricted in some way from indulging in all three as is my natural non-EU wont.

It's been asked before, but hey, let's ask it again: how, how and how will it stop any of these things and why do you think I'm more likely to to do them then a filthy EU foreigner or indeed a filthy local? Admittedly, only for an extra year. Or until 2010 when it becomes compulsory. Oh, I give up.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

10:56 / 07.11.06

I AM IN YOUR COUNTRY STEALING YOUR JOBZ it would seem.

14:11 / 07.11.06

I don't know ... Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but whe do seem to be talking about a fading Mr Tony who nobody really listens to any more. Given the uncertainty surrounding his position in the opinion polls, I'll be surprised if Gordon doesn't allow this to quietly drop come May. If nothing else, it'd be a way of distancing himself from Mr Tony, which is something I'd imagine he's increasingly keen on doing.

14:15 / 07.11.06

Unfortunately Mr. Gordon deems to think it's a swell idea too. We'll see what other prospective leaders of New Labour have to say for themselves on this issue. I suspect that it will follow the party line; there are some very lucrative contracts to be divvied up with this project...

Tabitha Tickletooth

09:21 / 08.11.06

redtara: Unfortunately Mr. Gordon deems to think it's a swell idea too. We'll see what other prospective leaders of New Labour have to say for themselves on this issue.

According to They work for you John Reid and Alan Johnson are very strongly for, David Miliband and Gordon Brown are quite strongly for, and John McDonnell - the only declared runner at this point - is moderately against.

I wonder whether this might not stall at the point that it moves from non-nationals to nationals? Could be paranoid, but I suspect that almost any administration would love to be able to force every non-EU citizen to carry one of these as a condition of entering the country with the intention of remaining for any period of time. They'd love to extend it to EU citizens, I'm sure, but wouldn't get the co-operation they require. The Tories would positively adore the idea. You could link access to all social services for anyone who looks a bit, you know, non-EU and you've got a lovely little control mechanism for job-stealing, identity defrauding, terrorists of every non-EU ilk.

Perhaps I am being overly optimistic, but I suspect that this will be such an abject, expensive, utter IT failure that it will not be credible, if even possible to make it compulsory for everyone in the country to carry one. In that case, having already introduced them for foreigners, there would be little impetus to remove such a valuable control mechanism when the rest of the scheme slips out of sight. I mean surely, Daily Mail readers, it's not unreasonable for foreigners living in our country to have to identify themselves as such at all times?

Paranoid ravings of a foreigner or a possibility?

[Disclaimer: I am currently in the process of applying for citizenship in Britain to get hold of a shiny EU passport, so hopefully - money and approval permitting - I will not be affected by the first phase introduction. Thus is one magically transformed from filthy, terrorist, identity thieving foreigner to decent, salt of the earth citizen. For just under £500!]

Our Lady Has Left the Building

19:35 / 08.11.06

That it will be a mess is pretty much a certainty, I just wish we didn't give several millions of pounds to computer firms that have already taken several billion pounds then given us fuck all. I mean, call me a deranged pot-smoking socialist but I can think of several better uses for that money, schools, the health service, copies of how to write scripts that don't suck for the Torchwood and Robin Hood writers. What's touching is when you come across one of the diminishing band of people who think Gordon will suddenly swing to the left when he gets in the big chair. I think they were the ones that talso hought Tony Blair's right-wing rhetoric was only a ploy to win the '97 election.

01:09 / 09.11.06

It's not so much a question of Gordon swinging to the Left, as such; it's just that if he's not going to keep his sweaty, neo-Calvinist mitts on the purse strings once he's in the top job, what's the point of him?

The ID card scheme seems like exactly the kind of fiscally irresponsible, and in particular, Blair-tainted project that he ought to be distancing himself from him, in any case. He's not one for rushing into anything of course, but sooner or later it does seem as if he's going to have to set up his premiership as something distinct from that which preceded it, for reasons to do with pragmitism as well as personal vanity (though God knows, there's enough of that in the mix to inspire him on it's own.) The last thing Gordon wants to be is John Major to Mr Tony's Mrs T.

Seeing as dropping ID cards wouldn't cost him anything politically, what with the other parties being openly against, it seems like an opportunity to put some clear blue water (or whatever the cliche du jour is,) between him and Mr Tony that he'd be a fool to miss. And he is going to need them, I think, given recent developments in the States, and what they might mean with regard to public perception of the war in Iraq.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:09 / 09.11.06

But Gordon wanted to bring in his own register several years ago, like an ID Card scheme without the ID Cards, run by the treasury and, I think, based on NI numbers. So Gordon presumably doesn't believe the central premise of the scheme is bad.

17:04 / 14.11.06

from NO2ID;

FINGERPRINT PUB SCHEME MUST BE STOPPED
Pubs and clubs around the country are introducing fingerprint scanning systems for drinkers. The scheme which is backed by the Home Office was first trialled in Yeovil but plans are afoot to expand the system to Coventry, Hull, Sheffield, Leeds, Gwent, Nottingham, Taunton and possibly Swindon. Drinkers must have their thumbprints scanned and supply their name, address and date of birth to enrol onto the system before they are allowed to enter licensed premises taking part in the scheme. An increasing number of authoritarian measures are being introduced by UK pubs and clubs following new licensing laws which were introduced in November 2005.

Great. Now I'll need an ID card just to get a pint?

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:19 / 14.11.06

Not only to get a pint, but to enter the pub in the first place. As a plan, this is a work of genius - with enough take-up by the chains, it's near-equivalent to compulsory fingerprinting for anyone likely to be up and about - that is, excepting minors and senior citizens. Since everything in a pub is covered in multiple fingerprints, it would be almost totally useless in stopping crime - perhaps it might be useful for stopping underage drinking. Unless people were also fingerprinted upon leaving, or photographed, it would be little good for demonstrating that they had been present during a particular altercation.

Is there any possible justification for this as opposed to for people entering, say, John Lewis, which is presumably the next logical step?

18:38 / 14.11.06

Dear God ... Quite apart from anything else, and assuming it's their own idea (which the reference to Home Office backing implies, anyway) what do the pubs/clubs involved hope to gain from this? It's certainly not going to be cheap to administer - even if they pass on the cost to the customer it's still going to mean less units sold, and they're already looking at a potential drop in profits when the smoking ban goes through as it is. And if they're worried about troublesome elements, well I suppose that's understandable, but as a troublesome element (whatever that is in any case,) wouldn't effectively having to turn in your passport at the door before you're allowed a beer be liable to exacerbate whatever feelings of rage you already had? And what about passing trade in large numbers, if there was a football match or gig worth travelling to in town that week? There'd be applications to process in large numbers, which, even assuming the technology worked properly ... well the devil laughs every time one of these schemes gets the green light.

As far as the government goes, at the height of it's increasingly Orwellian dementia, I can see the appeal - I suppose what's logically to follow is a national pub chain data base of people who use their services, whose consumption (well if you've got the name, address and fingerprints, why not factor in the other, for marketing purposes,) could easily enough be tied into their records on the brand new National Health database, with the relevant implications as regards treatment for anything more serious than a dose of flu - 'you broke your arm because you slipped on some ice did you sir? But we see from your records that you habitually drink more than ten beers a week. Oh dear. Should have gone private then, shouldn't we?' But as far as the breweries go, I don't see the percentage here at all.

Increasingly, I find myself wondering why I ever thought William Burroughs' monologue in 'Drugstore Cowboy' was a bit silly.

18:46 / 14.11.06

Yeah, this was in some papers a few weeks back. More info:

A pilot scheme is running in pubs and clubs in Yeovil, Somerset; it is "set to be introduced nationwide" eventually as a supposed method of reducing alcohol-related crimes and to stop 'troublemakers' entering every pub and club in a town or city. Drinkers must register their finger prints with bar staff when they buy a drink; they must also show passport, driving licence or similar ID and this info will be held on a database accessible by the cops. 6,000 drinkers have signed up for the scheme in Yeovil. Violent alocohol-related crime is claimed to have fallen 48% in 6 months. Some landlords were reluctant to join the scheme but were threatened with losing their licences - they were also offered the incentive of longer opening hours. The Home Office is considering expanding the scheme to other regions and cops in other areas have expressed interest.

12:07 / 15.11.06

blimey - that's like, fifteen percent of the town or something? and it's accessible by the cops - so the centralised/compulsory ID card debate is going to be pretty much moot anyway if this goes ahead? really fucked, i'm quite shocked by that really.

so who to blame? who's actually pushing the ID agenda so forcefully? is it the association of chief police officers or something? have they like agms where they decide all this police state stuff? or is it more of a steam engines thing, with no recognisable body responsible for adopting this as policy? except the labour party, i mean...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:19 / 15.11.06

I dunno... having grown up in Yeovil, it's easy to see how you could be scared into introducing such draconian measures. Given the town's (well-earned) reputation for violence, I wonder if it was either chosen because they felt it needed it, or because they felt more people would agree to it...?

14:41 / 15.11.06

A bit of both, I suppose. The other towns mentioned seem to be more or less *notorious* for alcohol-related crime.

What's the betting this scheme won't be operative in Central London in time for the Olympics though? As a visitor from abroad I imagine I'd be on the first flight home around about the second I was fingerprinted while trying to buy a beer.

18:44 / 15.11.06

Some landlords were reluctant to join the scheme but were threatened with losing their licences

Sounds like a protection racket a bit, doesn't it?

22:14 / 15.11.06

I wonder about the number of 'dry-drunks' in contemporary US/UK politics - the UK Labour party's littered with them, John 'fucking' Reid, A Campbell, Robin Cooke, etc, (although to be fair to Cooke, he's not on record as having laid off while in office, as far as I know) and to what extent these characters aren't attempting to inflict their rage about their state of non-drunk being on everyone else. Your average 'troublesome town-centre ASBO youth,' after all, is at worst going to advise firebombing an all-night Asian shop, while pissed, whereas Cambell, sober, and angry, was gung-ho enough for doing that to a whole country.

And then there's George Bush.

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, these perhaps aren't bad people, but on the other hand, an decisions made should be taken with a pinch of salt.

17:29 / 16.11.06

I found it kind of scary that people are actually willing nowadays willing to have chips implanted in them for mere access to a new fashionable dutch discotheque. True this! (sadly, don't have an english link to it).

If people are willing to have something implanted under their skin just to have access to a bar and to make paying there easier, will it truly be this easy for governments to impose more and more restrictions on our liberties, and take away our rights?

Anyway, here in the Netherlands, ID cards are already obligatory. One needs to have one on their person all the time, I think from about the age of 14 or 16. Of course the cops have to know what person they are giving a ticket for a busted bicycle light...

It is kind of scary to think about the amount of information that becomes more and more available to institutions of government or otherwise.

Mon Oncle Ignatius

10:34 / 17.11.06

It is kind of scary to think about the amount of information that becomes more and more available to institutions of government or otherwise.

And indeed, how easy it is for unauthorised persons to access the data once it's on the passport/ID card.

Someone is going to make a quick fortune selling foil-lined passport holders.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:00 / 17.11.06

Someone is going to make a quick fortune selling foil-lined passport holders.

You, sir, are a genius.

Mon Oncle Ignatius

16:27 / 17.11.06

Fancy setting up a lead-lined wallet corporation?

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