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Underground > Switchboard >

ID cards in the UK

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03:20 / 22.04.04

Apparently of people recently polled by MORI the large majority are happy to carry ID cards. Should we secede from the UK?

Fucks sake.

Blunkett Immigrants, fnord! Benefits fraud, fnord! Terrorists, fnord! FEAR! FEAR! FEAR!

British public Baaa baaa baaa (yes please, rape our personal freedoms Mr. Blunkett, I fear foreigners and the poor) baaa baaa baaa.

GRRRRR!

OK, I know not everyone in the UK is sleepwalking but sometimes it fucking seems like it.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

03:21 / 22.04.04

I sometimes (well, often) wish Hackney could secede from the UK. And I could be its King.

Blunkett just keeps on getting worse. I honestly think he's the worst apple in the whole fucking barrel.

03:57 / 22.04.04

Ah, but:

Almost half those surveyed said they would not want to pay anything for the cards. A £35 fee has been proposed.

Only one in five said they would be prepared to meet the suggested £35 charge.

People have no problem carrying them, but they'll be damned if they're going to pay for them!

04:32 / 22.04.04

Well, perhaps that will be the saving grace, Baz. Honestly! Did these people actually think they'd appear from thin air?

08:35 / 22.04.04

We don't pay for ours.

And the fact that we (Germany) have ID cards means that someone who roots through my mail to find two bills, my date of birth and mobile number can't impersonate me. The ease with which you can assume a new identity in the UK is just as frightening to me as the perceived invasion of your civil liberties is to you.

10:58 / 22.04.04

I think David Blunkett's more than anything else just a little confused. He seems to have got it into his head that if he's not in the papers every five minutes, he's doing something wrong. For example, his deplorable public statement regarding Harold Shipman's suicide ( in case anyone missed this, Dave was glad, in spite of the fact that as a prisoner of the UK government, Harold Shipman's well-being was one of those things that Dave, as Home Secretary, perhaps might have been expected to take fairly seriously. ) Or his comments on the Brass Eye paedophile special, which it turned out later he'd never actually seen. He seems a bit fixated on getting attention, which is fine in Three year old, arguably less so in public office.

Anyway as I understand it, the reason why ID cards haven't been introduced already is that Gordon Brown won't pick up the bill. So given that, trying to pass the bill on to the UK public seems like political suicide on the level that even a government that looks like it's losing to the extent that New Labour are doesn't seem likely to take on board.

11:16 / 22.04.04

But I suppose the majority of people who answered this poll probably just think, ID card, cash card, what's the difference ? Which is a fair enough point, except that forgetting your cash card when you leave the house isn't, as yet, something you expect to have to deal with the cops for.

11:34 / 22.04.04

Grey area-

"We don't pay for ours."

Of course you do, just with your tax money, that's all. It's still your money.

And the fact that we (Germany) have ID cards means that someone who roots through my mail to find two bills, my date of birth and mobile number can't impersonate me.

Do you seriously believe that no-one can impersonate you because you have ID cards? The minute ID cards arise a forgers black market also arises. That's capitalism, baby

"The ease with which you can assume a new identity in the UK is just as frightening to me as the perceived invasion of your civil liberties is to you."

And yet, I've never had any problems with identity fraud and I've yet to hear any anecdotal evidence of it. Our tabloids would be crawling with shocking stories if identity fraud were it at all common.

My problem is not entirely with the invasion of civil liberties. If nothing else, we will soon have biometric passports. I don't like it, but I travel on planes a great deal so I'll have to get one. What is the point of dupilcating identifications? If biometric passports aren't good enough, what is?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:53 / 22.04.04

58% don't think the Government can introduce them smoothly. Sometimes I think democracy is wasted on the public. I think if you did a survey in which the people are only allowed to vote in favour if they can give solid reasons as to how ID cards would help as opposed to existing controls then you'd see that figure plummet.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:56 / 22.04.04

Also, after the embaressment of the consultation exercise and the strong opposition from pretty much everyone who wasn't Tony Blair or who worked for the companies that would make ID cards, Blunkett needs to manufacture support. Expect glossy articles in The Sun before the final announcement is made.

11:59 / 22.04.04

I'm decidedly ambivalent about this. The civil rights concerns that people bring up seem...overblown...if one compares the situation to the rest of Europe. I'm not sure that that is a good argument for the cards, but it undercuts many of the arguments against them that I have heard.

12:09 / 22.04.04

I'm still hearing no support for my secession idea. I say we take over the Channel Islands (plenty of cheap French fags and booze, sunny, temperate, isolated) after first removing the indigenous population and relocating them to Essex where they'll be comfortable.

C'mon people, I don't want to have to move to Canada to relax. Even Canada isn't entirely cool.

12:25 / 22.04.04

"I'm decidedly ambivalent about this. The civil rights concerns that people bring up seem...overblown...if one compares the situation to the rest of Europe. I'm not sure that that is a good argument for the cards, but it undercuts many of the arguments against them that I have heard."

Bollocks it does! ...deep breaths...

OK, sorry, that was rude.

Think about it like this- we will have biometric passports soon. WTF is the necessity for further ID if we have these passports? Getting a passport is complicated enough without having your retina scanned and fingerprints blotted.

We live in paranoid times my friend, think- WHY does the government need this?

It's another example of "foot-in-the-door" policies like student fees. Eeking their way into your personal life, where they have NO RIGHT TO BE.

The opposition to this appears to be "Oh don't be so silly, I don't think the government would be up to anything sinister." It's a willfully ignorant attitude, or am I the only person watching the news? WMD's anyone? To name just one MAJOR lie from Blair's government.

Now go read 1984.

13:14 / 22.04.04

if you did a survey in which the people are only allowed to vote in favour if they can give solid reasons as to how ID cards would help as opposed to existing controls then you'd see that figure plummet

I'd be interested to see how the questions asked in the poll were phrased... it certainly seems heavily skewed in favour of ID cards, especially considering how little everyone I know would like them. I think that a question which mentioned that they would be compulsary anyway would be far more likely to get a 'Yes, I'd carry one' response ; true, it still demonstrates that the people asked were fairly apolitical, but it doesn't mean that they actively support the introduction of ID cards...

13:14 / 22.04.04

Now go read 1984.

Its exactly this kind of statement that makes it hard to take your point seriously. The fact is that I already live in a country which is part of that Orwellian dystopia. But somehow - perhaps I am uniquely oblivious to totalitarian control regimes? - I seem to manage.

13:25 / 22.04.04

"Its exactly this kind of statement that makes it hard to take your point seriously. The fact is that I already live in a country which is part of that Orwellian dystopia. But somehow - perhaps I am uniquely oblivious to totalitarian control regimes? - I seem to manage.

I didn't realise how passe caring about our exploitative government was, pardon me.

To clarify, hyperbole is a technique used to emphasise points yet clearly you understand all phrases only literally. When it suits you.

14:07 / 22.04.04

The scary bit seems to be that if they're introduced, people have to carry them at all times. Is this true? It seems like people were hinting at this above...

14:08 / 22.04.04

Think about it like this- we will have biometric passports soon. WTF is the necessity for further ID if we have these passports?

Not everyone has a passport?

14:13 / 22.04.04

Of course you do, just with your tax money, that's all. It's still your money.

I do realise that my taxes pay for my ID card...but my taxes also pay for the policemen who arrested the neo-nazis throwing rocks at my house five years ago. And guess what? Because we have ID cards and its the law to carry them, none of the guys were able to give false names and got convicted. There's none of that 'present yourself at a police station within 48 hours with proof of identity' crap you get here.

Do you seriously believe that no-one can impersonate you because you have ID cards? The minute ID cards arise a forgers black market also arises. That's capitalism, baby

Yes, true. However, the ID cards we have are nearly forge-proof. A fake ID will set you back a serious amount of cash, just like a (good) fake passport. What ID cards achieve is to make identify fraud more difficult so only a serious criminal would consider it.

And yet, I've never had any problems with identity fraud and I've yet to hear any anecdotal evidence of it. Our tabloids would be crawling with shocking stories if identity fraud were it at all common.

How about this or this? Identity fraud is one of the fastest growing crimes in the United Kingdom, especially because it is so easy. And you mentioned taxes? One of the many reasons taxes are so high is so the government can pay for all those fraudulent benefits being claimed by people exploiting loopholes created by the absence of an identity register.

What is the point of dupilcating identifications? If biometric passports aren't good enough, what is?

The whole point of an ID card is that it is a form of identification that is easy to take with you. Yes, I know a passport isn't that big either, but it doesn't exactly fit into a wallet. And a passport has one other function an ID card does not have: It identifies you as a citizen of the issuing nation, with all the rights and priviledges that entails. A passport is much more valuable than an ID card, which is only proof of identity, not nationality.

14:15 / 22.04.04

Nobody's Girl, I care about explotative government as much as the next person. And I clearly wasn't taking you literally, but expressing my dissatisfaction with how facile hyperbole is, when faced with complex issues.

I also think I was fairly reasonable in expressing some doubt about the self evident wrongs of ID cards. To respond by telling me to read 1984 is...not constructive.

I can see some advantages to having ID cards - preventing identity theft, streamlining some aspects of government and possibly speeding benefit payments - and disadvantages - cost and greater government intrusion.

But since I live in a country with ID cards and barely notice, I don't take it as a given that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I could be missing something, but vague appeals to paranoia, slippery slopes and cynicism seem insufficient.

14:19 / 22.04.04

The scary bit seems to be that if they're introduced, people have to carry them at all times. Is this true? It seems like people were hinting at this above...

No, according to the BBC.

Individuals would not have to carry the card at all times but would have produce it within a few days if asked to do so by police, the document says.

14:41 / 22.04.04

It's worth bearing in mind that this is the UK government we're talking about - It's been hellbent lately on increasing it's powers, often it seems for no other reason than post 9/11, it feels that it can.

Surely the problem with ID card system under discussion is that it's going to be compulsory. I mean it might be introduced on a voluntary basis, but if the thing's going to work, that won't last long. So in other words, it's going to be a criminal offence to leave the house without one, and presumably, as with a driving license currently, the police will have the power to stop anybody they don't like the look of ( that's us folks, ) and demand to see their " papers. "

Compared to that happy vision of the future, I'm personally all right with things just as they are.

Incidentally, on the subject of retina scans, I seem to remember reading somewhere that you can tell someone's entire medical history based on a good enough photo of one of their eyes. So if that's right... Well I don't know about anyone else, but that information in the hands of the government could prove a little, er, tricky, let's put it that way.

14:48 / 22.04.04

Sorry LA, missed your last post.

What I said about police stop and search powers still stands though, I think. I mean I know they can do that already, but at least they're supposed to give a reason. A technicality, it seems, that we can now do without.

19:51 / 22.04.04

The point is still valid. Even if the cards would be optional now, it would still be easy to, at some later point, say "Well, everyone has it and most are already carrying it. Why not make it mandatory. After all, if you don't have anything to hide, you have nothing to fear."
Or some other crap like that. After all, once you have the cards (and it's mandatory to have it, even if you aren't carrying it), it would be stupid not to use it.

I suggest introducing the card on a trial basis for elected officials only. And make it so anyone at any time can ask to see their identification.

22:04 / 22.04.04

There are a couple of points about ID cards preventing ID theft that are probably worth raising...

If someone *does* go to the trouble of getting a good, fake ID card, they then blend seemlessly into the system. Once they have the ID card, it would be virtually impossible to detect that.

The fact that there are people working and living in the UK illegally is just the status quo. Even if you don't have to carry ID cards, like 'papers', you will need to have one to get access to services like the NHS. However you feel about illegal immigration, is it really a good idea to marginalise people in an already precarious position still further?

Re: retina scans, etc. Does the old argument that this will lead to rather more vicious and violent attempts to take on someone else's identity not still hold? Isn't that the reason it hasn't been introduced before to increase security? Maybe that's a bit paranoid, but...

By the way, I am all for the seceding idea

Our Lady Has Left the Building

09:30 / 23.04.04

Grey Area Yes, true. However, the ID cards we have are nearly forge-proof. A fake ID will set you back a serious amount of cash, just like a (good) fake passport. What ID cards achieve is to make identify fraud more difficult so only a serious criminal would consider it.

'Nearly' forge-proof isn't good enough for a serious legal document. Does anyone have that link to the article about how soon after the new 'unforgeable' five pound notes came out the forgeries started circulating?

And serious criminals tend to have the money to put into finding ways to beat the system, the terrorism angle is a government buzzword and also deliberately misleading, the Sept. 11th hijackers didn't have false passports or anything, and how would a British system stop hijackers from coming into the country from another country that don't have Biometric passports?

Serious criminals will be able to get their hands on the machines that make them or find someone in the organisation that needs the extra cash so will be willing to make some extra cards. What would be worrying is that if people are told that the new ID Card system is unbreakable and unforgeable they may not check cards rigorously because they 'know' they can't be forged.

10:25 / 23.04.04

The fact that we are just one person per person is a fucked up social construction in the first place. The governments of this world should read som postmodern identity theory.

10:37 / 23.04.04

Interesting point, Widing. But for those of us less familiar with postmodern identity theory, can you give us an indication of its relevance and impact on the subject of identity cards?

Flowers: Aren't you being a bit absolutist about this? I mean, just because a security measure fails to be infallible, that doesn't mean it is useless. I mean, anything you try to do to prevent crime will be flawed.

Also, I'm getting slightly confused in this debate about what is being proposed, what may be proposed and what we suspect may subsequently be imposed. Anyone have any handy links explaining the in and outs?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:33 / 23.04.04

I would say that when most of the things a ID Card is supposed to be for wouldn't work, are done equally well by other things, will cost a huge amount of taxpayers money to bring in, will include a charge that we are forced to pay when we could always choose not to have passports or driving licenses, and when this seems to all be for the short term political gain of one man and his dog and so the Government can bung a load of our money towards private companies, AGAIN, I think useless might be being kind to it.

15:11 / 23.04.04

I would happily carry an ID card if it fits some useful purpose. Perhaps by cutting down on people doing illegal stuff.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:59 / 23.04.04

Interestingly, this MORI poll saying there was public support was carried out for Detica. The press release is here.

What does Detica do?

Our National Security clients include those UK Government departments who rely on advanced technology to protect the UK from a broad range of threats. From the design and implementation of advanced software radios to the integration of very large databases with associated analytical tools these projects all have one common characteristic; they are at the leading edge of what can readily be achieved with today's technology.

I don't know exactly what integration of very large databases might actually mean but I would guess that Detica would be able to take part in the building of databases to hold people's information for ID cards. So Detica aren't exactly an impartial company here.

It's not the first time that a company that might be in a position to make money from a national ID card scheme have produced a report claiming widespread public support.

21:15 / 23.04.04

On the postmodern identity: We are not one person, not one true self - which could be symbolised with an ID. There is only roles that enact in different situations. You are not the same when you are in school and when you visit your grandmother. Sometimes er are several persons at the same time. Right now I am a peacefull anarchist member of a community, but in the window next to Barbelith I could be a muslim girl instead of a guy - planning a terrorist crime. Why should the peacefull anarchist be blamed for what the muslim girl did?

I hope you understood my point. My limited english skills made the example vague.

Whale... Whale... Fish!

23:30 / 23.04.04

Thank fuck I'm scottish and we can leave the UK. I don't want an ID card and they can't make me carry or indeed own one, well they can but it doesn't mean I will especially if they are gonna make me pay for the pleasure.
Rebel my little monkeys! New labour cant stop us! No-one can.... except maybe sleep...

I'm sorry.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

12:11 / 24.04.04

Widing, as far as I know, MPD has yet to be accepted as a defense for violent actions undertaken by someone. You might have more luck if you were tried in South America and claimed posession or being a zombie at the time. Seeing as the Government is quite happy to lock someone up when they haven't done anything at all (see: Guildford Four, Birmingham Six, etc) I think they'd probably be quite happy to live with the guilt of locking both your little Muslim bomber girl and you up together.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

06:54 / 25.04.04

Hang the fuck on.

Muslim women exempt from ID card photos. They are just going to make do with their thumb prints and iris scans.

This is kind of getting onto the same territory as The American woman who refused to have her photo taken for a drivers license.

The firm design of the card isn't absolutely certain yet but wouldn't a photo of the person to match up with how they look be of more use than just thumb prints? Or are all police going to get some hi-tech scanner which will allow an on-the-street cross-reference of someone's iris code with their card? If the Government are going to respect a Muslim woman's deep belief that it would not be right for her to show her face, why won't they accept my equally deeply held belief that I don't want an ID Card.

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