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Do Women Lack Ambition?

 
  

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Why?
17:54 / 15.04.04
I understand what you're saying Jefe, and you are right that the conversation in this thread has been taken somewhat out of the context of the article itself, but in my experience most threads end up being more about the participants' opinions of an issue than whatever got the thread started. Anyway, in my opinion, contextualizing this article does not defend its inherent wrongness. If anything it's just reinforcing the fact that the problem is systematic. Yet the article doesn't attempt to change the corrupt system, it advocates changing women.

Most of me is with you on the business world being unchangeable because of the the money and power at stake too, but there's this little voice in my head...oh no...here it comes...all right, little voice...if i can't hold you back, then...

Maybe we just need to destroy "today's business world." And if you think it's not possible, just look at Iraq. We've destroyed those people's whole world. Don't give me this helpless we-can't-change-it-because-it's-too-ingrained-in-history. I mean if we're just going to sit around and point out why things are so screwed up without discussing a solution, what's the point? What if the suffragists had just said, "Hell, we've never been able to vote before so I guess we shouldn't try it now."? Or if the founding *!fathers!* had decided that since democracy had never been tried before they'd declare independence from England and just set up a new American monarchy to replace the old guard? Of course things can change, and it can change in one fell swoop if need be.

What I completely disagree with is this article's insinuation that it will never change until women learn to be agressive and get to the top and change it. If women have to change to get to the top, what reason would there be for them to turn around and attempt to alter the system? That's not to say that it couldn't or wouldn't happen, because as my above examples prove it is possible for the underpriveledges to rise up and overhaul reality. But I think it might be easier, or at least worth considering, that if changes started at the top through government intervention and regulations in order to enforce a new HUMAN standard of value we could avoid the upheaval and the historically violent consequences of such upheaval.

Okay...back in control now. Hope that little voice didn't offend anyone. It can be an assh*le sometimes. I'm mostly a cynic these days, but there is still a small sliver of me that reacts to other people's cynicism with an optimistic attitude that says that if a bunch of intelligent and/or well-meaning people get an idea in their heads, it is possible for them to enact changes. Unfortunately, I am horrible at organizing this sort of thing, plus I guess realistically a thread on a message board probably isn't going to change much, but I do enjoy the debate.
 
 
ibis the being
18:50 / 15.04.04
I'd like to think that we're past the stage of having to analyze and examine the pants off (har) of the Question, "Do Women Lack Ambition?" in order to arrive at equality. I just think this is entirely the wrong approach and I don't want to give it the time or mental space even of a message board discussion. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so.

I don't think, to illustrate by analogy, that Martin Luther King and other Civil Rights Movement leaders in the 60's spent a lot of time going, "Are Black People the Inferior Race? Well, let's examine this question, and take some surveys, and figure out why people might think so based on certain documented behaviors and socially ingrained habits of black people, and challenge those assumptions, and conclude finally that No, Black People are Not Inferior and we have to Work on Gradually Changing That Perception."

No, they did not do that. They said, "Black people (and any other minority in America) are not an inferior race, and we won't stand to be treated as such anymore. Period." And then they acted on their words.
 
 
Why?
22:52 / 15.04.04
And one of the reasons that the civil rights movement failed on so many levels and racism remains a problem today is because nobody analyzed the causes and actually changed people's minds. There are a lot of white people in America who still believe that minorities are inferior because they were never convinced that they were wrong. Policy changed, but attitudes and prejudices did not because the movement stopped short of that goal. Action is great, but action without thought might not achieve the intended ends.

That's why I feel that this is an important conversation to have and one that more people should be having. It's the assumptions behind the argument on the page that are the problem. The article that started this thread is probably innocuous as jefe says- just the observations of a single person, but the inherent underlying attitude of that person seems to me to be sexist (and yes a woman can be sexist, just like an African American can be prejudiced against African Americans).

Why did this psychiatrist look at the issue in this way? Why are her definitions seemingly male-centric? And how can we pass off something as flawed simply because it appears in a business journal? Shouldn't we be alarmed when something appears to reinforce an already uneven playing field? It worries me that the people who read the Harvard Business Review could read this and have their biases confirmed by it because they're the last people who need to have their biased attitudes strengthened.

All these are relevant things to think about to me, but hey, nobody is forcing anyone to think about anything here.
 
 
No star here laces
05:58 / 16.04.04
"One key type of discrimination that women face is the expectation that "feminine" women will forfeit opportunities for recognition at work. Being silenced or being ignored often remains a baffling and frustrating barrier to women's understanding of how their lives are shaped. This is a "sin of omission" rather than one of commission, so it's hard to spot. It's not as obvious as being denied the right to vote or access to birth control. Women tend to feel foolish asking for appropriate acknowledgement of their contributions. They find it difficult to demand appropriate support - in the form of time, money or promotion - to pursue their own goals. They feel selfish when they do not subordinate their needs to those of others.

This subtle, incremental, but ultimately powerful dynamic militates against women's pursuit and attainment of goals in most fields. For them, or for anyone, the motivation to learn a skill or to pursue any endeavour, including an ambition, can be roughly calculated on the basis of two factors: how certain the person is that he or she will be able to attain the desired goal and how valued the expected rewards are.

The rewards aspect of this calculation is problematic for women. Although they may find mastery as satisfying as do their male peers, the social rewards that women can expect to reap for their skills are diminished. THe personal and societal recognition they receive for their accomplishments is quantitatively poorer, qualitatively more ambivalent, and perhaps most discouraging, less predictable.


Whoever said "insidious" up thread is dead on. To me, I find gender discourse based around the idea of patriarchy as an overt organised discriminatory force a little dated. Now this may be because I'm an outsider who doesn't see it in action.

But, assuming that's not the case, to me the idea that discrimination works through the kind of psychological mechanisms outlined above makes far more sense.

So if that is the case, it certainly makes sense to try to counter such forces somehow. I'd argue this has got far more to do with the education system than it does with the business world.

Here's why. The business world will always be about competition. It is a battle. And men just are more psychologically geared up for this kind of environment. So I honestly don't believe that as long as you have a business world based on competition, the situation there will change much. And if the business world is not going to be about competition, you're talking serious political change on a universal scale.

As far as change goes, my assumption is generally that meaningful, successful change happens gradually. Because people's minds change gradually.

A case in point is Asia (where I live). In the west women's attitudes changed, and they then forced society to change to accomodate them. Here in Asia, society changed to fit the western model of female emancipation. But attitudes have not yet changed. Because that takes much longer. So practically, women here are far more subservient than in the west, even though their legal and political status is identical.
 
 
Why?
13:12 / 16.04.04
You bring up a couple of great points jefe. I agree that it takes much more time for minds to change than law and policy. In the case of the civil rigths movement as mentioned above there was nearly a century between the emancipation of slaves and a real effort to gain equality for African Americans. In my mind one of the main reasons for this was that black people themselves first had to be convinced that they were equal. Of course there were always a few who knew it, but a vast majority did not have hope for or a belief in their won equality. Centuries of slavery and degradation had left a real psychological mark and had people believing that they were inferior. I can only imagine how much harder that indoctrination must be to overcome for women in Asia where we're talking about a few millenia of indoctrination that needs to be overcome.

so to ibis' point about Martin Luther King, Jr. and other leaders not sitting around and discussing why they were seen as inferior, a lot of that had already been done just to create a leader like Martin Luther King, Jr. or Malcom X. And if you read King's writing you'll see that it's not all aimed at the white majority. A lot of what he wrote was aimed at African Americans to convince them of their own worth and their ability to enact change. That's why "We Shall Overcome" was a popular rally song: It signified overcoming the belief in one's own inferiority.

I also think jefe is right on with it being "insiduous" as opposed to overt in our day and age. Sexism, racism, agism (and a whole bunch of other -isms) have become politically unacceptable causing many of those attitudes to sink to a deeper level of consciousness, but those attitudes do still exist, especially on a personal level. On a societal level discrimination has taken on a very veiled appearance, but go to a small town in middle America and you'll probably find that it's more overt than we'd care to admit. That's why we need to keep the discussion alive and coninue to change minds even though laws have already changed.

ibis said something about not thinking that we needed to have to go through all this to get to a discussion of equality, but the sad fact is that we're not as progressive a global society as we'd like to think. And in some ways it is more dangerous today because it has become so insidious and under-the-surface that these issues aren't always discussed because people tend to think we solved it all back in the 60's. Truth is, we're still working on it.
 
 
ibis the being
13:14 / 16.04.04
My point was, though, that I feel we're past the stage of analyzing sexism to death. "Proving" over and over that women are psychologically less driven and more submissive and blah blah only reinforces sexist attitudes in the business world. This isn't a country where psychological attitudes about women are still severely backwards and fucked up and if we granted women equal footing nothing would really change. It's a country where the business world is stubbornly practicing good-old-boy habits, backing it up with these stupid studies, and telling women, "you're still just not trying very hard, why is that, dear? let's talk about that," and I call bullshit.

And yes, Jefe, patriarchy as an overt organized discriminatory force does still exist, I can tell you as a female working professional.
 
 
Why?
19:08 / 16.04.04
This is an honest question, ibis: Is there still an overt organized patriarchy? I'm not a "professional" but I am surprised by that. Has your boss actually told you, "I know you're more qualified, but we'd rather promote a man to this position." I admit I'm not in the business world, and I don't want to presume to define other people's terms, but I think that referring to sexism as "insidious," at least the way I read it, was to say that sexism today exists more in the realm of individual thought rather than spoken of written policy.

Maybe the business world is even more backward than I give them credit for (and i don't give them much because I'll admit to being a socialist who thinks that the competitive, capitalist business world should be destroyed by any means necessary ). It seems to me that those in positions of power allow their biases to affect their decisions, but I would be very shocked to find out that any company had a written policy today that says specifically that women will not be allowed to advance beyond a certain rank.

I just said that very poorly. Friday...must turn off...brain...
 
  

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