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It's official - I am a sad, lonely geek

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10:43 / 28.02.04

oh come on, you've got to post up the other email you sent.

Given that some people already seem to have got a bad impression of me from this, I'd rather mitigate my losses at this point. Besides, I don't think it would tell you anything that hasn't already been revealed by this thread.

10:44 / 28.02.04

Haus is absolutely right here. Also, I'm slightly surprised at some of the comments here. While I don't think we should be giving 40% a hard time, I think that telling him he is justified is not in his best interests.

10:54 / 28.02.04

Given that some people already seem to have got a bad impression of me from this -40%

What you do with the email is your call, of course, but you shouldn't confuse criticism with condemnation. We all fuck up but that doesn't make us, and here I mean you, irredemably bad. Christ, a trawl through my past would make this look like a model of probity.

11:04 / 28.02.04

No, Lurid I'm not confusing the two, but when people who seem otherwise quite well-intentioned, make comments like:

Not to say you're a bad guy and I don't think you're a bad person

you know you've made a bad impression, n'est pas?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:12 / 28.02.04

Although there's always the possibility that we were over-compensating for the fact that the written word can be more easily misinterpreted, isn't there? (As I believe I was saying when I used one of said phrases!) Them smilies don't really match up to the human face for nuance, y'know?

This isn't damning with faint praise. If I thought you WERE a bad person, I'd call you a cunt!

Anyhoo... QUIT BEATING YOURSELF UP, MATE! It seems unlikely you deserve it. If you obsess over it, it'll just get weird. And then you WILL deserve it.

(Easier advice to give than to take, I know, but then... that's just the way advice is.)

11:49 / 28.02.04

Yeah, once someone has said "Not to say you're a bad guy" or "I don't think you're a bad person," you can be sure that privately they consider you a bad person. Not that they're bastards for being so judgemental - no, not at all.

11:51 / 28.02.04

Dear 40%, I honestly don't have much of an opinion on you (or anyone here) yet because I'm still fairly new. Now though I know you are 1) male and 2) a musician, and I think it's really neat that you advertised to make a song. Oh yeah and now I do think you're obsessive

Re: pervy: Haus is right, it might not be the right word. "Hideously over-invested" is perfect, though, and it's this over-investment that gives it this weird sexual/romantic vibe. If I were Nicola, I'd think, "Why does he care so much about this?" She barely knows you, you barely know her. Yet you're having such a huge reaction to this, it's inappropriate, and that feels creepy. But then, I'm pretty sensitive to over-bearing males who want to lecture me about the proper way to conduct relationships, business or otherwise. Because who the fuck are you, really? I'm just saying.

I cannot emphasize enough the stupidity of her reply, which comes across as a hysterical wrist-slap.

I don't know how much this has helped, considering that you have filed this under "she freaked out because I'm intense" and you like that intensity about yourself, so.

12:00 / 28.02.04

Not getting into the Nicola-40% exchange, just going off on my usual tangential autorant about what is wrong with being a geek whose relationship to songwriting (or trainsets or Blake's 7 slash or cultural theory or dollhouse making) is more intense and satisfying than relationships to humans? I know a ton of people who congratulate themselves on their functionality on the grounds that they can remain in sexual relationships that don't have an ounce of the passion, intensivity and joy that invests some single people's creative or hobbyish activities. Directing your energy and your passion into non-traditional objects does not make you sad and lonely. Look at Morrissey: he says he writes songs because he can't talk to people on the phone, and the world would be immeasurably poorer (as would Morrissey, come to think of it) if he could talk to people on the phone.

(Just to clarify that I have no sense of the level of intensity of 40%'s various investments in various things, whether those be relationships with other humans, animals, hobbies, or anything else. This is just a rant borne out of the way some of my friends laugh at fans or hobbyists and assume their own lives are more fulfilled and satisfying whereas they're just more usual.)

12:48 / 28.02.04

Just get your prioritys straight 40%. Fuck the world.

Ex

12:49 / 28.02.04

Maybe this is partly a clash between ways of viewing the exchange. It sounds a little as though you did the first song as a form of collaborative project (phrases like “I did something for her that I've never done for anyone.”) You were also the one who probably put more thought and effort into it (youwrote the thing). Whereas she may have leaned further towards the “Oooh, cool, free stuff” end of the spectrum. Not saying that she isn’t appreciative, just that she didn’t enter into it in the same spirit. So your letter, implying a sense of connection, freaked her out and she’s responded impolitely, which is more or less what other posters have said. This is a bugger. Working with other people on things you feel passionately about is a tricky thing. Possibly finding committed collaborators for future inspiration would help you get enthusiasm which matches your own.

Directing your energy and your passion into non-traditional objects does not make you sad and lonely.

Yes, “You’re too interested in something that is not sex, and you don’t get sex” is a really all-purpose insult. I saw the furthest extension of it in a fetish mag this morning – a writer suggesting that people who get talk about fetish gear in sex clubs should “try having sex with a woman sometime”, blah blah geeky saddos. So – people who are interested in sex should try having sex.

13:05 / 28.02.04

Re: pervy: Haus is right, it might not be the right word. "Hideously over-invested" is perfect, though, and it's this over-investment that gives it this weird sexual/romantic vibe

Now that I can live with.

I can't help wondering though, what does it mean to be 'over-invested' in making music? I suppose this girl does not understand bonding through creativity, and on the surface of things, the sort of bond I might have expected/hoped for might look like a romantic/sexual one, but it is clearly distinct, and it strikes me as quite emotionally illiterate not to recognise the difference.

13:18 / 28.02.04

this girl does not understand bonding through creativity

I think Ex has hit it on the head. I don't think Nicola thought she was bonding through creativity.* I think she thought she was shopping. I don't think this makes her any more emotionally illiterate than you are: the two of you are reading the same text in two different languages.

*The fact that she got someone to write a song for her suggests that, um, she doesn't write songs, and thus doesn't have the same take as a songwriter on how invested is over-invested.

Argh! Got sucked in!

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:26 / 28.02.04

Can I get a "gah!" here?

40%, you are moving towards harrassing a member of campus for not treating the opportunity to pay you to write a song for her with the urgency and respect you feel it deserves. And she's emotionally illiterate?

You're not over-invested in making music, you're over-invested in this girl treating your music as equally important to her as it is to you, and also being able to read your mind and discover that when you were blaming her for not giving you happy memories you were not positing an inappropriate romantic feeling but rather an inappropriate artistically collaborative feeling. Either way, the investment seems to be about how you are perceived, and how important it is to be taken seriously, admired and rewarded for your music, rather than the music itself. TBH, expecting her to be into the role of your muse after that amount of contact is about as creepy and objectifying as expecting her to be your girlfriend.

I'm with Deva and Ex on the "other interests" thing, but in this case I don't think it's entirely relevant, because this isn't really about music, it is about how 40% feels he has been unfairly treated, and what he feels is a reasonable reaction to that. It's all *about* relationships.

13:52 / 28.02.04

The shopping/Being Creative thing is entirely the point I think. If you make something for someone, (a song or a painting or a drawing or a piece of writing or whatever) then you are investing a whole lot of your personal self into it. It takes up your time, your thoughts, your emotions and you feel intense about it, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do a good job. If you give it to someone for free then you really must care about the thing you are doing, so you have even more of yourself invested in it.

The other person, however, as Deva said is literally just 'shopping' and you don't invest much of yourself in the process of doing that at all. (Unless it's for shoes and you are me.)

Nicola thought, 'ohh, I'd like a song written', got one written, got it for free (hey, free stuff, cool!) and then it went entirely out of her head. Unfortunately, 40% was thinking and thinking about the song, and then thinking about the prospect of writing another because that's what you do when you are really into something you do. You think about it a lot.

Therefore there was always going to be a clash because the two of them were coming at it from completely different emotional places.

15:22 / 28.02.04

Thank You for your note, Nicola. I am happy to hear that you want another song written! After I receive half of my £20 per song rate, I will be happy to begin work on the "sad, lonely geek" song you've requested. I appreciate your business!

15:27 / 28.02.04

Hello Haus, I don't mean to keep kissing your butt, it's just that I agree with you so.

40% you said this: I can't help wondering though, what does it mean to be 'over-invested' in making music? That's not what this is about anymore, you must know that. Be honest. Being invested in & passionate about your craft is wonderful. Haus & I are arguing that you are over-invested in a transaction with a customer, and that's what made you come off as creepy/inappropriate.

I'm not even touching the issue of "emotional literacy."

17:25 / 28.02.04

Yeah, you're both right. I don't think there's anything more I can say to argue my position.

I guess I knew I would end up having to say that sooner or later. It was interesting though. I'm sorry to have exasperated you along the way, Haus, but I really appreciate what you've had to say. Everyone else too.

I'll try to be less creepy in future. Seriously.

13:51 / 01.03.04

S'OK, 40%. I doubt you've exasperated anyone, we've all been there. Jesus, if you knew the complex hallucinations about people that I've got myself into. Learning that what's going on in your head is not necessarily useful or applicable in dealing with the world is a good lesson.

16:22 / 01.03.04

I agree Seth, i totally agree.

16:55 / 01.03.04

40%, do you do much work for hire?

I may be out of context here... but this situation doesn't read as very "professional." Sure you're an artist invested in their creative process, but once you've desided to offer your artistic skills/passion as a "service" then you're pretty much playing by a different set of rules. One of the most important one's to keep in mind is that your "feelings" really don't matter to your client, and shouldn't. Not everyone is cut-out for the role of artist-for-hire and it's in no way a judgement on one's creative ability if they are or aren't.

Seems to me you might want to examine the why's behind your willingness to create art for hire (even if you're not charging $$$, the price can be zero dollars). If you're looking for a source of inspiration perhaps a writer's group will supply the support you may be looking for. If you're looking to make a few extra $$ doing something you generally enjoy (or feel extremely passionate about) then some practice in emotional dis-investment or equanimity could be of great help in terms of finding and maintaining "clientelle."

18:46 / 01.03.04

This was the first time I had ever even played a piece of music to someone I didn't know, let alone written one for them. In fact it was one of my first completed songs with full lyrics. No-one outside my family and a couple of close friends have heard such a thing from me.

The main reason I wanted to write a song for someone else (apart from the inspiration) was so that I would be accountable to someone else for making it within a certain time. And the time pressure didn't seem to hurt the standard of the song one bit. So I would say my main motivation was, erm, motivation. To have someone else to keep me to a certain schedule, speed up my lethargic creative processes and get me to focus on actually finishing a song.

As well as tackling a creative challenge, naturally.

The only reason I didn't charge was because I had no previous track record. Therefore I was hedging my bets in case it didn't quite come off. But it did come off, I'm very happy with the song, it was not like any other I've written, which leads me to believe I was successful in adapting to the particular theme she gave me, as did her initial comments on the song.

In retrospect I might have been better asking a trusted friend to provide me a theme. But then with a stranger, I felt under greater pressure to come up with the goods. If it had been a friend I might have been able to say "look, I'm having a bit of trouble...it might be a bit longer than I first thought", and knowing me the whole project would have just fallen by the wayside.

But no, aside from the fact that my arrangement with Nicola was 'a transaction', I am nowhere near a professional situation. I made the assumption that creating a song for a fellow student would share no common elements with a professional situation other than that this fellow student would specify what was required. So I wasn't really prepared for the level of "dis-investment" that would be required of me. And it has been a valuable lesson. And I'd certainly rather learn it now than later, in a more important situation.

Are there writers' groups for musicians? I'd only ever heard of such a thing for book-writers. I'll have to look into that.

whothehell@where?

19:21 / 01.03.04

"By the way, I've got a new topic for you to write songs on- the fact that you are a sad lonely geek who has to fantasise about some supposed relationship with a girl you have never actually properly spoken to."

and she barely knows you

women are so perceptive

can somebody loan this kid a pair of testicles?

19:32 / 01.03.04

Why don't you loan him yours, whothe? You've got more than your fair share... :P.

whothehell@where?

19:35 / 01.03.04

are you saying i'm a dick? or that i'm nuts? or that i am a collector of male genitalia?

19:38 / 01.03.04

Oh, I know you've been collecting nuts, sonny boy.

19:53 / 01.03.04

Hmmm...not bad. But Wolverine-San's had more in the subtlety department.

19:57 / 01.03.04

Who's trying to be subtle here?

19:59 / 01.03.04

By the way, I've got a new topic for you to write songs on - the fact that you are a sad lonely geek who has to fantasise about some supposed relationship with a girl you have never actually properly spoken to.

There might even be a song in that. It could either be a funny song where you poke fun at yourself, or an emo song where you wallow a little in sad, lonely geekhood. Or both.

20:35 / 01.03.04

The song's already been written. It's called "Teenage Dirtbag".

whothehell@where?

20:42 / 01.03.04

why not "nutless nancy" or "i shoulda killed myself yesterday and saved the world the annoyance" or "why did mommy find me too repulsive to breast feed?"

just suggestions, you can kick 'em around, personalize 'em a little

21:00 / 01.03.04

You're showing potential, its just that one was just too mindless and malicious to have any credibility. You've got the will to be truly offensive, all you're lacking is the technique.

Go on, try again. You can do it. I believe in you.

whothehell@where?

21:07 / 01.03.04

really? mindless and malicious? which one?

21:10 / 01.03.04

"You're showing potential, its just that one was just too mindless and malicious to have any credibility."

We can always count on him to be mean and malicious, so he doesn't lack any credibility in that department.

Maybe you should write an abba-esque song though. You know, something with depressing lyrics but a happy beat?

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:12 / 01.03.04

Pay no mind, 40%. They're just over on a day trip from fadetoblack. Terrifyingly, Barbelith is seen as a bit of a tower of Academe over there.

21:12 / 01.03.04

I definitely appreciate that genre. My favourite example of that is "It's Not Unusual" by Tom Jones, where he sings "I wanna die" without the utmost glee.

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