BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Passion: Is Mel Bonkers?

 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
 
deja_vroom
01:36 / 14.04.04
mmm... gorgonzola...
 
 
Ganesh
08:09 / 14.04.04
Mmm... raising one's game...
 
 
Ganesh
08:14 / 14.04.04
Jesus rising to his feet to take more punishment from the soldiers has far more in common with Rocky raising his battered face to take one last shot at Apollo Creed, than turning the other cheek in pacifistic love.

I knew that part reminded me of something - and was vaguely thinking along Fight Club lines (the redemptive power of choosing to be beaten to a pulp) - but I suspect Rocky is nearer the mark. For me, it's certainly more rooted in contemporary Hollywood machismo/masochism than anything else.
 
 
deja_vroom
11:14 / 14.04.04
No longer interested, I'm afraid. But I still want to mock you, whenever possible.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
11:18 / 14.04.04
Modhat Biz sez: Jade, take it to the PMs. If you have nothing else to contribute please refrain from trying to rot the thread.
 
 
Spaniel
11:19 / 14.04.04
mmm... gorgonzola...

Orr has just written a lengthy post describing an alternative Christian perspective and all you can do is take the piss? Are we to assume that you believe Orr's post to be entirely without merit - on a par with a fucking thread on cheese. Are we to assume that all criticism of your postition is so utterly devoid of worth, so puerile and vacuous that trolling is the only reasonable response?

Could you be any more offensive?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:24 / 14.04.04
Wow, this thread is tasty...Can we cross reference to reactions to The Green Mile, to really get the 'game' raised to Danny from Withnail And I heights?

Jade?
 
 
deja_vroom
11:31 / 14.04.04
Ganesh' pussyfooting ruined it for me, I'm afraid. Not interested in "contribute" if this is what's being built. But please, ignore me. Eventually I'll quit being morbid and stop coming back to watch... this.
 
 
Spaniel
12:08 / 14.04.04
Ganesh' pussyfooting ruined it for me, I'm afraid.

What does this mean? That Ganesh failed to engage with your arguments? Er, I beg to differ, but if that's how you feel perhaps you should take the time the lay out your position clearly and concisely. With which points specifically did Ganesh fail to engage?

As for

Not interested in "contribute" if this is what's being built

What exactly is being built around here? I would contend that Ganesh's position is one of many. Does Deva hold the same opinions? Does Jack Fear? Does Orr? Do I?
Assuming, however, that we are working toward one unified reading of The Passion, do you only post in threads where the majority share your stance?
 
 
deja_vroom
12:13 / 14.04.04
And, if this is the type of argument I should bother considering, I'm better off with brie...

---
Where was the teaching, Explicitly, when Christ TEACHES his disciples to love their enemies; Implicitly, well, all over the fucking movie: stopping the stoning as teaching of temperance, stopping Peter as teaching of forgiveness(with moral line - "those who live by the sword" etc- to boot, no less, I don't need to go on, do I?? the redemption Check the last scene where Jesus, healed, raises from the fucking dead; also, points of interest, the Devil's fury, and when Christ says "Consumatum est", the humanity I saw aplenty in the scenes with Maria. and the divine compassion? I can't think of any scene with more DIVINITY - as in, way above mortal possibilities, and COMPASSION than when Jesus HEALS THE EAR OF AN ENEMY.

Hello-o?? Watching Hellboy, got sleepy and confused there, maybe, were we?
 
 
Spaniel
12:35 / 14.04.04
So then, Jade, you're interested in hearing exactly which teachings weren't covered to Orr's satisfaction, and in what way the teachings depicted contributed to Orr's negative reading of the film?
 
 
ibis the being
13:19 / 14.04.04
Orr, great post. I'm tempted to quote the whole thing in an email to my parents, bc I get so tongue-tied with frustration over this movie.

One of the things that mystifies me about Protestants (s.a. my father) being all gung-ho about the film is that Protestants typically place the resurrection, rather than the crucifixtion, as the central message of the gospel. As a kid I was told that this distinction is why Prot's display the empty cross rather than the crucifix w/ suffering Jesus - I realize that leaves out the Iconoclasts, but you see the point.

Not to put too fine a point on this, most (Protestant) Christians claim that we are supposed to focus on redemption and forgiveness represented by Christ's having risen, instead of morbidly and self-centeredly obsessing on the guilt of His suffering for us. And yet Protestant Christians are just as fanatical about The Passion, and using it as a gold standard of Christian spirituality, despite this hugely significant doctrinal deviation. That right there smacks of knee-jerk religious fanaticism - this willingness, and even eagerness, to overlook a difference really in the whole point of the story merely to force religion on the heathens.
 
 
grant
14:09 / 14.04.04
It might be more useful if, instead of the porn hot-button word, people talked about this movie in terms of spectacle, of which porn is the usual case-in-point.

Spectacle is that which elicits visceral reactions, and it's the important component of film which has nothing to do with narrative elements like plot or character. It's organized by feats -- that is, physically shocking things which you don't ordinarily witness. In porn, it's sex acts... the wilder and kinkier, the more spectacular. In professional wrestling, it's brutal moves. And in Hollywood action films, it's either shiny flashy explosions or else muscular men using their bodies and doing things to other people's bodies.

The theorists (can't remember their names) say that to some degree, all films are spectacular -- they operate at a preconscious as well as conscious level, they elicit deep reactions, and they consist of, at their most basic level, well, pretty flashing lights in a darkened room. Film is always about seeing things you're not ordinarily seeing or in ways you don't ordinarily see them.

Now, what I think Gibson has pretty clearly done (even just judging from the visceral reactions he's getting in this discussion) is to link the ancient tradition of the Passion Play with Hollywood's conventions of film-as-spectacle. I think it's totally fair to link his work as the director of Braveheart, where the hero is gutted alive but still as the wherewithal to holler "Freedom!" in the final act, with his work documenting an event that is, on at least one very important level, a similar act of torture and resistance.

I mean, even in history, part of the deal with Passion Plays was that they were spectacles -- they were bloody, they were rowdy, they were shocking.

What I think I'm seeing here is different levels and kinds of response to that sense of shock.

Does that make things any better?
 
 
deja_vroom
14:25 / 14.04.04
It is undoubtedly higher. More elegant, too. Feta, anyone?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:57 / 14.04.04
Second mod hat moment: Jade, stop trying to rot the thread because it contains arguments contrary to your own. I suggest you either engage with the continuing discussion in an intelligent manner or come back to it when you're capable of doing so.
 
 
deja_vroom
15:03 / 14.04.04
Thread rot??? I just praised a poster’s post – which was completely on-topic to begin with, and solidly so. I just said “this is a pretty cool point, which really stands out”. What is wrong with that, silly cheese joke notwithstanding? What. Are. You. Talking. About?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:17 / 14.04.04
You know full well, Jade. I just disagreed a mod action to delete the final part of that post - the feta comment - as either an obvious attempt to derail the thread or shit on the posts disagreeing with your own. If you want to argue the point, PM me - I'm not prepared to get involved in turning this thread itno any more of a childish shouting match than it's already become.
 
 
deja_vroom
15:44 / 14.04.04
By "you know very well" I assume you think you know the reasons behind my motivations, but you're seeing much than there is to see: I'm not interested in *derailing* this thread, I just could not resist my morbid impulses to watch and then mock "arguments" such as Ganesh's "The Passion Of Christ - A Fetishist's Analysis", mmatthew's "Ya know whadda think? I tell ya whadda think!" encopresis attack and/or Orr missing key scenes of the movie and then complaining about their absence. But enough of this - it wasn't really a very grown-up thing to do. So, as I said: Not interested in derailing it, and I'm gonna prove it now, watch this: This is me leaving.





Oh, what the hell...
(shakes dust off feet)
 
 
Ganesh
19:42 / 14.04.04
Or possibly "leaving".

Grant, yes, I'm familiar with the concept of the spectacle and, essentially, I agree with you. I've also read around the subject of passion plays generally (largely after being intrigued by the Grant Morrison version) and am aware that they used hyperbolic suffering as a means of establishing spectacle.

"Different levels and kinds of response to that sense of shock"? Yeah, I think that works - up to a point.

Even taking that into account, however, I personally feel The Passion goes beyond the historical tradition, and is more exposing of Gibson's individual idiosyncrasies. Orr reads this idiosyncrasies as "an empty vessel of hate" whereas I see them as indicative of a level of personal fetishisation superimposed upon that which is considered appropriate/important in creating the spectacle. That's what made me wonder about Gibson's own psychic motivations, and what made me use the term "near-pornographic" - and, without wanting to labour the point, I don't think this can all be rationalised in terms of my own dirty mind.

I've pretty much said all this already, though.
 
 
Blacksword
21:04 / 14.04.04
First off let me say de jade your conduct in this thread has doen nothing but cause me to steadily lose respect for you with your last remarks cinching it. Gald to see you feel so absolutely right as to condemn everyone else in the thread, and to do it in such a smarmy "I'm saved and your not" manner (I have big issues with people who use scripture to take cheap jabs at people). Such self-righteous attitudes are the reason why it's so bloody hard to get people to give the Gospel a serious look. I'll leave you with my favourite C.S. Lewis quote before I get to my main point: "...a cold self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute."

Anyhow I personally don't see this as a killing puppies movie. It's not like Mel is making this up. It's a film about the Passion, and as such its scope is fairly limited. It is basicallya big glossy Passion play. If you know and accept the why, then this movie has a good chance of saying something to you. Take it like it is, and don't expect it to be a full telling of who Jesus is and it's a good well put together Passion play. It has its flaws, but the Hollywoodisms were to be expected and as such they didn't bother me that much. The table thing was cheesy and a bit off tone, but the concept of illustrating Jesus' humanity (as in he had 30 fairly normal years of life before his ministry) was a good one. Where this movie goes off the tracks is all the claims that it is a message to all. If they wanted to do that they should have had more segments of Jesus life and ministry, hack about 20 minutes out of the suffering dedicate it to context and this would make teh movie a lot more accessable.

That said I didn't find it pronographic. Overstatement is Hollywood's thing. I personally found the flipping him over to flog him him more was a bit much, but that and all the blood everywhere fits into the hardline Catholic tradition Mel is a part of. In it's tone this Movie is very Medieval (save for the attempts to show Jesus humanity, the Medieval view of Jesus wasn't all that human - hence the veneration of the Virgin), seriously take a travelling Passion play of say 1300 and recast it in a modern context and this is what you have. Actually the only objection I have is in him getting up to take more punnishment. It reflects more a modern western value of, "I won't be beaten, here give me more, try and break me" than what Jesus is about. But I think one problem is that this is a movie that is meant to be taken in minus the modern veneer of cynecism we all carry. The leading reason I question the motive of having Jesus stand up for more is rooted in the fact that the value of "just try and break me" is smeared over Hollywood movies, the arrogant hero. It's actually very hard for many people today to take anything as genuine and lower the barriers. Given the way mel brilliantly marketed this film. riding the waves of controversy I don't suggest you shut your brain off, (I didn't there was a fair bit in it that I found unsatisfactory given the hype) but just drop the cynicism for a bit. As someone who can be pretty damn cynical at times, I know its hard but this is not a film that holds up well under jaded eyes. While I think a good chunk of Mel's beliefs are cracked I do belive he put a great deal of sincerity into this movie and I think it is unfair to dismiss it. It is a blatantly emotional film about something that should be emotional, its purpose is to pull at heart strings. To dismiss it because it is a film that makes an emotional apeal is to punnish it for what it is rather than any particular flaws. As a universal film about Jesus it's mediocre, as a Passion play it's very good. Art should not be judged based on what it's not. In al;l fairness it was mismarketed, but this was done in large part by people who had nothing to do with its making.
 
 
Rev. Orr
22:04 / 14.04.04
de Jade - to try to calm this down a little may I point out the following? a) I was responding to another posters report of hir father's reaction to the film and not to your posts directly. b) I attempted to make explicit from the outset that I was partisan and incapable of watching the film with a perfectly neutral mindset. This story matters a hell of a lot to me as it clearly does to you. I would normally shy away from describing my personal beliefs as part of a film critique, but felt that they were such a part of my response that it would be dishonest not to reveal them. My issue is with the film as I saw it and not with any individual on this board. Feel free to discuss the varied responses to a piece of art or not - I have no wish to attack your religious or critical impulses, merely possibly to diasgree.

To the specific issues raised against my post, I was insufficiantly clear in what I meant by 'teaching'. According to tradition and scripture, Jesus received a vocation to a rabbinical or teaching ministry. The gospels contain numerous examples of His parables, sermons and answers to direct questions on the interpretation of the Mosaic tradition and law. What the script chose to utilise were examples of Him teaching by example. The instances you highlight, whilst indicative of the new way of life He advocated and adopted, taken as a whole depict Jesus as a perfect being to emulate rather than a teacher to listen to and follow. It may seem like a hair-splitting differentiation but again, it goes to the heart of the Protestant/Catholic divide. On the one hand there is the more medieval model of exempla - a perfect example to follow - as shadowed by the divinely ordained status of the Catholic priest. On the other, a system of teachings and recorded wisdom and instruction, as indicated by the Protestant individual route to salvation. Here, the film-makers choice is neither 'better' or 'worse' in cinematic terms, but clearly indicative of a doctrinal slant.

In terms of the perceived lack of redemption, again I was unclear through brevity. What I felt was missing was a sense of the possible redemption of Mankind through the resurrection. Certainly, Christ is depicted as having risen from the dead, but I missed any linking of this action to the eternal fate of the rest of us. From outside sources, we 'know' that He is suffering through our sins and that His defeat of death opens the possibility that we too might live after the body is gone. However, I failed to discern any reference to the wider impact of Jesus' actions, sacrifice and miraculous return. Again, I come to my main point which is that if it requires the imposition of additional knowledge or belief to work as a piece of ecumenically Christian iconography or worship, then it can only be judged on its individual elements, cinematically.

I will admit that much of the humanity, compassion and empathy that I missed from the depicition of Jesus as a character stems from my dissatisfaction with the actor's portrayal of Him. Concealed for too much of the film behind contact lenses, prosthetic wounds and rivers of gore, I could not see a person, divine or no, beyond the icon. Whatever choices, emotions and decisions JC the actor made during the protracted scenes of suffering (and from his other work I cannot believe that he made none) I could not preceive them under the mask of suffering and effect. Again, a personal response, but when added to the task of portraying a being both human and not, I felt a lack of connection, a sense of disassociation which was only exacerbated by the level of violence chosen.

Which again brings me to the choices made in production. This, after all, being an interpretation of a well-known story.

Why increase the violence done to the body of Christ? This is a defining motif or conceit of this version of the Passion, explicitly and deliberately (according to comments made publically by the director). Why not just concentrate on this aspect, but deviate from tradition, scripture and historical consensus in a supposedly 'accurate' telling of the Gospel story?

Why the down-playing of the political dimension to events of that Passover? Christ adopts the mantle of the Messiah and yet instructs the people to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's". He is, after all, executed under Roman authority as a threat to the peace and stability of Judea. Where are the Zealots, the popular acclaim as He entered the city, the outburst over the Temple money-lenderss? Why the soft-focus Pilate? Rather, why the three-dimensional, empathic Pilate to contrast with the other authority figures, in place of the historical tyrant and violent suppressor of potential revolt?

Why the invented flash-backs when there is a wealth of scriptural material available? Instead of the clunking anacronism of the dining-table scene, could they not have used the story of Mary and Joseph losing the young Jesus and finding him discussing the law with the elders of the Temple?

Why is the Devil there, and depicted in such a fashion? Again, a departure from the Gospel evidence and again, replete with deeply subjective and incendiary overtones which are either clumsy and unfortunate or clumsy and intentional. The presence of an incarnation of evil detracts from the conventional religious interpretation of the crucifixion. Without his/her presence, there are two levels of meaning; historically, Jesus the public figure is executed by the occupying forces for political reasons and allegorically, He suffers the burden of our sins and death in order to redeem us all. With the devil added, his machinations (whilst never made explicit in the film) muddy the collective guilt or involvement of humanity. If we are not implicated, if our sins are not the cross Jesus must bear and the stripes on His back, then there was no point to it all. His death and resurrection becomes an experiment in divine potential, adabbling in the fleah of human form, rather than the reality-shaking redemption of the world that is required in the Christian reading of the story.

I raise these questions, not as a debating tactic or even a bating move, but because these were the issues that troubled me. If reading the film from a Christian perspective is too narrow a focus for this forum then I apologise, but given the nature, subject and declared intent of the film I felt there was a place for it. It is no more valid than any other analytical construct, but I hoped it might be of interest to try to explain my troubled response to the film from this angle to counterpoint the very public bloc-support of the religious right (outside this board) and because pinkos-for-Christ have an ego too.
 
 
m
23:42 / 14.04.04
So I guess my problem is with the whole concept of the passion play. Why bother? Sure, passion plays have a history as an art form, but so do Punch and Judy shows. A two hour, slickly made, big budget P&J show would be just as much of a one trick pony. In this case, the passion play's one trick is to make people cry for Jesus, and yeah, Mel managed to get people all teary eyed. So what? Watching anyone die for two hours is emotionally draining. In fact, if you require two hours of watching explicit human suffering to finally have a little sympathy for other people, then you are seriously damaged. On the other hand, if Mel had made a movie with two hours of someone teaching, had made it exciting, and was able to get people to care about it, then he would be a filmmaking ninja. Making education a spectacle requires some skill.
 
 
Char Aina
23:55 / 14.04.04
Someone should tell those Evangelicals not to be handing out leaflets outside screenings of 'The Passion', the people are either going to be committed Christians already or unlikely to have been swayed one way or the other.


its a mel gibson thing.
the SNP did the same thing outside braveheart.
perhaps mel is a 'saint' sorta figure, but helping those who need exposure for their martyr? he did the patriot, remember, which is basically braveheart for yanks.


in fact, when AKA says

I still haven't seen The Passion but my father just did. His opinions about the movie were the same before and after he actually saw it. It was moving, amazing, exactly followed the gospels, and (this is a nearly direct quote), if you're not moved by this movie, you're quite simply not really a Christian.


it makes me wonder. how about

I still haven't seen braveheart but my father just did. His opinions about the movie were the same before and after he actually saw it. It was moving, amazing, exactly followed the history books, and (this is a nearly direct quote), if you're not moved by this movie, you're quite simply not really scottish.



and saying He said the screen filled his field of vision and the sound system was incredible reminds me of a friends assesment. he mentioned that the 'peak volume' normally reserved for when the film gets mental, was in effect from the word go. and it doesnt let up. you know how in james bond the full orchestra is saved for the big stunts? he reckons that in the passion, everything was the big stunt; emotional buttons being pressed really hard all the way through.


de jade;
apart from when you get unreasonable and silly about it(which is increasingly) you seem to be suggesting that the innacuracy is okay because purpose of the film is to get our emotions high.

are you saying that we should be upset by the pain he suffered, and feel indebted to him, and that therefore it is irrelevant how bloody it gets? even if its innacurate, its okay because it pushes the buttons which the story of the passion is supposed to, albeit realy hard?
 
 
Char Aina
00:05 / 15.04.04
and what the hell is going on with all these references to the passion plays of six-seven hundred years ago?

art, in all its many forms, has advanced enormously since the 1300s, and i think defending somethings excessive use of sensationalist violence and its blunt message on the grounds that it was the way it was done for all those years all those years ago is fucking ridiculous.

this is the 21st century and, hard as it can be to believe sometimes, we are a more sophisticated species in terms of our capacity for understanding complex representation now.

until someone can explain why for all the points raised in this thread, i dont see why anyone should be forced to repeat their reasons as to why not.

looking at you jade, and thinking of ganesh.
 
 
Blacksword
04:09 / 15.04.04
Art does not advance, it changes, new techniques are developed but artist expression itself does not advance. By that logic Jennifer Lopez's latest piece of trash smokes anything J.S. Bach wrote 300 years ago, or that Queen is better than Mozart. Such an opinion is based on the arrogance that modern culture is superior to all those that preceeded it. The lessons of history seem to me to show fairly clearly that while our knowledge increases humanity manages to learn nothing. Unless you happen to think that two world wars and a nuclear arms race that almost caused the extinction of humanity illustrate how far we've come. Sorry pet peeve of mine.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
07:23 / 15.04.04
Orr's post, I think, pretty much sums up my dramaturgical mood towards the film.

I woke up on Easter Sunday morning and thought well, I am usually utterly disappointed by church services, so let's drag our lapsed Christian (presbyterian and lutheran... now there's the conviction of fire and brimsone for you!) ass to the movies.

There were so many problems with it from an historical perspective (ecclesiastical Latin? arrrrgh!), and many choices I didn't agree with at all (Judas, being out of his mind and chased by devils, is relieved of much of the responsibility for hanging himself; a depiction of Satan - ANY depiction - is bound to fall flat, just like no woman can be Helen of Troy for everyone), but I found something useful from the film. As someone who barely believes in otherworldly powers such as God, but who will never, ever be an atheist, it was unsettling in a good way.

It's horrible to watch someone die for two hours, yes. The violence was overdone, oh yeah. But in the nagging voice in the back of my head that kept saying "but what if it's true?" lay the true value of it for me. I'd have to agree that you'd be hard-pressed not to be affected by it if you're a Christian. The question of your own doubt is definitely in the forefront when you see what your religion is actually based on - even if the actual events were one-tenth as gruelling as in the film. So. Poor filmmaking that nevertheless succeeds in one of its principal aims, thanks to my own nervousness about going to h-e-double-hockey-sticks.
 
 
Ganesh
09:02 / 15.04.04
Art does not advance, it changes, new techniques are developed but artist expression itself does not advance.

Perhaps not, but I think those new techniques are so new and different that they significantly influence the expression itself. In transposing a medieval passion play to modern day via cinema, it necessarily becomes a more intimate, individualised experience - and the onscreen suffering gets close-up-and-personal. In the case of The Passion, it's Gibson's version of 'personal'...
 
 
Hieronymus
21:19 / 16.04.04
Oh for the love of...

How long before Hollywood jumps on the Left Behind bandwagon?

Two unproduced screenwriters have sold their fantastical spec The Passion of the Ark to Columbia Pictures, reports Variety.

Bobby Florsheim and Josh Stolberg's modern-day tale of an unmarried man approached by God to build an ark to save the world from a second flood whetted the interest of all major studios, including Warner Bros., 20th Century Fox, and Universal.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:34 / 18.04.04
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
 
 
Char Aina
03:27 / 20.04.04
Art does not advance, it changes, new techniques are developed but artist expression itself does not advance.

the passion is more sophisticated than a play written in 1314. it may not be as good, but it is certainly more sophisticated. the tools required to experience a holywood blockbuster are more complex than those needed to understand a medieval stage play.


similarly, an audience of bach's contemporaries would no doubt have difficulty interpreting a rubberduck bassline or a klaxon firing in the middle of a song. even mozart would be taken aback by stadium rockers like queen as they launched into something a bit bluesy.

the point is that they have done their thing already, and new art is informed by that; a progreesion of sorts, even if it isnt a progression to whatever you see as a higher plane. perhaps it would sit more easily if i described it as a progression of our potential. if bach were born today, he could buy a phaser pedal for his fretless bass, y'know? he woulda shredded a fretless, i reckon.



Such an opinion is based on the arrogance that modern culture is superior to all those that preceeded it.

oh, is it?
well, fuck me.
i should call my mum.


The lessons of history seem to me to show fairly clearly that while our knowledge increases humanity manages to learn nothing.

be more specific.
we learned how to split the atom, does that not count as something?
if what you mean is that when we did, we still used that knowledge like a rock/spear/gun to protect our selves by killing each other, then yeah. sure.


Unless you happen to think that two world wars and a nuclear arms race that almost caused the extinction of humanity illustrate how far we've come. Sorry pet peeve of mine.



well, i guess i already answered that. we have travelled far down this road, getting further all the time. the destination may suck, but we are definitely further from our departure point.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:33 / 10.10.04
What an odd film. The first couple of minutes are lovely from a 'pretty pictures' point of view, clouds down to the garden of Gethseleme but it was sad that Gibson wasn't able to maintain that visual eye throughout the rest of the film. It felt very pedestrian after that. And after they got Jesus and his cross out of the city, were they just filming in the same place they did Life of Brian?

The devil was a strange character in the film, and about the only character you could look to for any kind of subtlety among the grand guignol. It seemed to have a role very similar to the one it had in the story of Job, the devil was a job something did, not a name of an entity. I could imagine it had come to find Jesus after having an argument with God about whether Jesus was strong enough to take on all the sins of the world. And it seemed that Jesus took them on in a very literal sense, like a Sin-Eater. But I got no real sense tht the devil was evil, at the most extreme, such as when Judas was tormented by the little demons, it seemed dispassionate. And it seemed odd that it would bother driving him to suicide, what was Judas to the devil, unless the devil was very much working for God. And with God crying and starting the earthquake at the end, it's all very well for Jesus to say it's a virtue for people to forgive one another their sins, I hope that when he died he went upstairs to try and get his Dad on board with the idea. But the devil. What was going on there? And why at one point was ze carrying around that child demon? And where did it go to after that scene? Infernal Daycare? And that screaming at the end? I presume that was something to do with Jesus trying to suck up all the sin in the world and presumerably succeeding.

As a paid-up heathen I do think Gibson sabotaged himself. To have any value as a symbol to humanity the Jesus that dies on the cross has to be as close to the son of man than the Son of God, else you might as well nail a horse up on the cross and say "Lo, Dobbin died for our sins!". But the sheer amount of torture that Jesus goes through (and I have to feel that Gibson was especially pleased that digital audio technology is now so advanced that you can hear every part of every whip sound or moan) means that what they are nailing up is not human, so his sacrifice is essentially meaningless. No human could go through the torture he goes through and make it as far as getting nailed up, so it's nothing we can aspire to.
 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
  
Add Your Reply