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The Passion: Is Mel Bonkers?

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:04 / 07.04.04
< rot >

Well, I found the scene when Officer Murphy gets repeatedly shot in Robocop pornographic so I doubt I'm going to pay for a longer, ancient version of that, not unless Jesus comes back from the dead cyborged up and looking for some payback...
 
 
The Natural Way
16:08 / 07.04.04
Oh, that scene is SOOOO pornographic. It used to give nasty, sexy feeling as a child. Aaah, the sadist's "concern":

"Does it hurt? Does it hurt?"

Grim.
 
 
deja_vroom
18:00 / 08.04.04
I don't want "agreement" of any sort. Ganesh, because I suspect our disagreement has deeper roots than you're trying to make it look like, i.e. a mere intellectual disagreement departing from the same point and reaching different conclusions based in our personal intellectual judgements. This is a different case. If you're not familiar with Christianity, or has some sort of prejudice towards it or its goals, the spiritual nucleus of this movie will elude you completely. What will happen is that some marginal element of this movie (maybe some subject that given its multiple possibilities of interpretation under different angles - politics, sexual psychology, historical accuracy), fueled by the urgency of a given angle to your personal background, might get transposed to the center of the picture, which will cause you to see the work of art through a deforming, subjectivist point of view. In any work of art, the purpose of the parts only makes sense inside the structure as a whole. Disconnected from the general sense, the isolated pieces are often the cause of false, not very solid interpretations. And this is exactly when the movie becomes whatever the viewer wants it to be: anti-semetic, cult of violence or even "pornography". There is no way one can approach this movie with the same tools one would use to examine "X-Men2", which is the same to say - and this might shock the liberal crowd - that, no, art is *not* for everybody. The greek concept of apeirokalia comes to mind: "Inexperience in the matters of beauty".
And:

Are you suggesting that, perhaps, everyone who's called the gore pornographic is a nastily inelegant "psychiatrist specialised in sexual deviances"? Bloody hell, there's a lot of us about...

No. Allow me to rephrase that to "under the light of sexual pathology" instead of "with the eyes of a psychiatrist specialized in sexual deviances".

I don't deny that The Passion is meant as a "spiritual offering"; I'm emphasising that it's one man's offering, is filtered through the lens of that man's idiosyncratic psyche, and is therefore deeply warped/flawed.

Maybe you've had access to Gibson's psychological profile and that's why you can atest for his deeply flawed/warped state of mind with such certainty. I know I haven't, and I brought to this discussion only two elements: The movie itself as a work of cinematic expression, and the background of Christian theology upon which it is based.

Again, I'm all for ending this, since we're just going in circles (let's not get into who's chasing who). But, for the future, I'll try to watch for the tone in my posts, if you put some of that elegance which we talked about to use and stop making remarks on each and every goddamn spelling/syntax error I make trying to get my point across in a language which you know very well is not my own in a subject which is clearly important enough for me to bother going through this effort.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:30 / 08.04.04
Can I join in? Even I can see that Ganesh described Mel as having an 'idiosyncratic' psyche, and the film as being 'deeply flawed/warped' as a result...

Which seems fair enough, really. But then I'm probably 'inexperienced in the sbject of beauty', and should mind my own fucking business.
 
 
deja_vroom
19:52 / 08.04.04
I just made the assumption that, given that Gibson's headspace is one such as to deeply distort/warp a religious offering into porn, well...
 
 
Ganesh
00:40 / 09.04.04
I don't want "agreement" of any sort. Ganesh, because I suspect our disagreement has deeper roots than you're trying to make it look like, i.e. a mere intellectual disagreement departing from the same point and reaching different conclusions based in our personal intellectual judgements.

You're making assumptions again. I don't even begin to 'try to make this look like' it's based on an intellectual disagreement.

This is a different case. If you're not familiar with Christianity, or has some sort of prejudice towards it or its goals, the spiritual nucleus of this movie will elude you completely.

I'm extremely familiar with Christianity, and I don't "has" any sort of prejudice towards Christians. I'm not entirely sure what the "goals" of Christianity are, but I don't thi-i-ink I'm prejudiced towards those either, so I don't think the "spiritual nucleus" of The Passion eludes me on that account.

What will happen is that some marginal element of this movie (maybe some subject that given its multiple possibilities of interpretation under different angles - politics, sexual psychology, historical accuracy), fueled by the urgency of a given angle to your personal background, might get transposed to the center of the picture, which will cause you to see the work of art through a deforming, subjectivist point of view.

As may equally have happened with your view of the film. Your own personal, subjective, deforming reality filter may have interpreted and accommodated The Passion in accordance with your own way of perceiving the world.

In any work of art, the purpose of the parts only makes sense inside the structure as a whole. Disconnected from the general sense, the isolated pieces are often the cause of false, not very solid interpretations. And this is exactly when the movie becomes whatever the viewer wants it to be: anti-semetic, cult of violence or even "pornography".

Or, indeed, "artful", "full of hope, of joyous optimism" or a recharger of "hope-batteries". Disconnected from the general sense of sadomasochistic pointlessness (which is surely the true core of the film), the isolated pieces might well coalesce into not very solid interpretations of whatever sugar-coated bollocks the viewer wants it to be.

Did you see what I did there?

There is no way one can approach this movie with the same tools one would use to examine "X-Men2", which is the same to say - and this might shock the liberal crowd - that, no, art is *not* for everybody. The greek concept of apeirokalia comes to mind: "Inexperience in the matters of beauty".

No, because obviously it's less tightly-plotted than 'X-Men 2', and rather less plausible. 'X-Men 2' is, all things considered, the more intelligent prospect.

No. Allow me to rephrase that to "under the light of sexual pathology" instead of "with the eyes of a psychiatrist specialized in sexual deviances".

Fine. I'm not sure whether everyone who called the film pornographic would define it as such. I would.

Maybe you've had access to Gibson's psychological profile and that's why you can atest for his deeply flawed/warped state of mind with such certainty.

I've had access to his directorial canon - as have you - and I have a certain experience in these matters. Nonetheless, I think you'll find I have qualified my "certainty".

I know I haven't, and I brought to this discussion only two elements: The movie itself as a work of cinematic expression, and the background of Christian theology upon which it is based.

You've also brought your deeply patronising conviction that anyone who watches the movie and reaches different conclusions from your own has somehow failed to do their theological homework.

Again, I'm all for ending this, since we're just going in circles (let's not get into who's chasing who). But, for the future, I'll try to watch for the tone in my posts, if you put some of that elegance which we talked about to use and stop making remarks on each and every goddamn spelling/syntax error I make trying to get my point across in a language which you know very well is not my own in a subject which is clearly important enough for me to bother going through this effort.

If you stop being so fucking condescending, I may just do that.
 
 
Ganesh
00:43 / 09.04.04
I just made the assumption that, given that Gibson's headspace is one such as to deeply distort/warp a religious offering into porn, well...

Perhaps you'd like to comment on how you've read the phrase "at times, near-pornographic" as "porn"?
 
 
deja_vroom
02:17 / 09.04.04
What do you think the goals of Christianity are? The Salvation Of The Soul.
 
 
deja_vroom
02:20 / 09.04.04
oh, and
 
 
deja_vroom
02:48 / 09.04.04
Oh, and:

Or, indeed, "artful", "full of hope, of joyous optimism" or a recharger of "hope-batteries". Disconnected from the general sense of sadomasochistic pointlessness (which is surely the true core of the film), the isolated pieces might well coalesce into not very solid interpretations of whatever sugar-coated bollocks the viewer wants it to be.

Did you see what I did there?


Yeah, you brought the matter to be seen under the scope of cultural relativism and cultural subjectivity, in which works of art are not judged but merely analyzed, filed, and everyone's entitled to an opinion, even when talking about stuff they have no understanding or authority on. Because, Ganesh, the argument you just wet-dreamed about here comes from a narrower perspective than its healthy twin's: The perspective of a millennia-old set of correlations between symbol and meaning, all based on the premise of Truth, which I'm afraid cannot be completely understood by a relativist's mind. The perspective you crudely sketched here is based on someone worried about and concerned with the social consequences and significances of extreme graphic physical violence in movies. And of course, the occurrence of pornography.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:12 / 09.04.04
Jade said:

If you're not familiar with Christianity, or have some sort of prejudice towards it or its goals, the spiritual nucleus of this movie will elude you completely

and

In any work of art, the purpose of the parts only makes sense inside the structure as a whole

and I can't help jumping in here, because I don't see how you can use those arguments against the criticisms I've been making of the film. I've repeatedly said that I am extremely sympathetic towards Christian theology in many of its forms and that I love several movies whose "spiritual nuclei" are Christian (The Gospel According to St Matthew, f'rex); and, in fact, that the fundamental reason I think Mel Gibson's movie sucks is because its structure as a whole makes a nonsense of its parts (and vice versa). As you say, the theology and the art are intertwined here, which means that the inadequacy of the movie's art is closely interconnected with the idiosyncrasy and incoherence of its theology. If you could explain to me (a) why, in terms of Christian theology and/or of the movie's logic, Jesus voluntarily stands up for more flogging than he is sentenced to and (b) how you are supposed to read the movie so that the physical impossibility of what Jesus undergoes doesn't signify, I would be a lot closer to being able to understand what you see in it.

And I really wish I could let this go:

a millennia-old set of correlations between symbol and meaning, all based on the premise of Truth, which I'm afraid cannot be completely understood by a relativist's mind

but I actually can't. Since 1918, when Saussure's Course in General Linguistics was published, the centrality of 'Truth' to this set of correlations between symbol and meaning - which, as a classicist-turned-cultural-theorist I can tell you with absolute confidence has been through huge shifts and permutations over the millennia: there is no single set of correlations defined as "Truth" which is millennia old - has, as you correctly imply, been relativized. That means that the conditions within which symbols and meanings are joined for a particular culture, in a particular socio-economic system, for a particular discourse, genre or discipline of study, have been exhaustively analysed and explored, rather than huffily taken off to a transcendent place called "Truth". Categorizing all twentieth- and twenty-first century analyses of semiology, literarature, communication, writing, discourse and truth as "relativism" is inaccurate and lazy; saying that they don't understand "truth" is like saying that anyone who can knows that paper is manufactured from rags or wood pulp doesn't understand paper. Cultural analysis accounts for the production of "truth" as a set of correlations between symbol and meaning, and seems to me to have a much better claim for the understanding of Truth than someone who just says "I know what Truth is and you never will".

I'm really tempted to end with a brilliant reference to "quid est veritas? said Pilate, and would not stay for an answer", but I can't think of one and I have to do some work now.

PS: I'm not getting into the 'pornography' argument because the idea that there's an erotic element in the Catholic tradition of the display of naked, suffering male bodies is pretty well-documented and convincing, as far as I'm concerned.
 
 
deja_vroom
17:11 / 09.04.04
I'm talking specifically about Ganesh's points of view here, Deva. Sorry for the confusion...
 
 
deja_vroom
17:15 / 09.04.04
And I'm digesting your reply. Will rpely back soon.
 
 
Ganesh
23:22 / 09.04.04
What do you think the goals of Christianity are? The Salvation Of The Soul.

That, presumably, is the 'goal' of evangelical Christian organisations. I'm not sure that a set of beliefs can, in and of itself, have a specific 'goal'.

Perhaps you'd like to start a thread on it elsewhere?
 
 
deja_vroom
23:52 / 09.04.04
(...)and, in fact, that the fundamental reason I think Mel Gibson's movie sucks is because its structure as a whole makes a nonsense of its parts (and vice versa)

Please, develop on this.


(a) What Christ did with his sacrifice was to make a point. He could have lied, stepped back, omitted info etc, but he made a statement. When the roman soldiers were whipping him, they were also making a point. The antitheses, if you want. But no synthesis for Christ. He just re-stated his point again, even more vehemently (That's, in the movie, when he stands up, if you're following). Then who the roman soldiers were representing there made yheir point again. Etc. This is why he stands up to the extent of his physical capability - the body can't follow where the heart has gone.

(b)Physical endurance differs greatly from person to person, and under special conditions (stress, meditation, pain) can get *very* bizarre. Saddhus who, like, spent their lives upside down, or with their arms on the air, or who rolled from like Ràjhàstàn to Andhra Pradesh and back(rolled from Illinois to Florida and back), endured physical pain of varied intensity (walking over fire, holding embers, being pierced etc. Documented, filmed). So if we're talking specifically about his endurance, I have to say that something like that has nothing of "supernatural", in my opinion - only of extraordinary.



but I actually can't. Since 1918, when Saussure's Course in General Linguistics was published, the centrality of 'Truth' to this set of correlations between symbol and meaning - which, as a classicist-turned-cultural-theorist I can tell you with absolute confidence has been through huge shifts and permutations over the millennia: there is no single set of correlations defined as "Truth" which is millennia old - has, as you correctly imply, been relativized.


And I can tell you: Its identity might have changed, but this is only so because the fact of its existence was never doubted, and this is what matters. Post-modernism, post-structuralism - you name it: Offsprings of existencialism based on highly complex theoretical tap-dancing jargon, these are thinking structures which build their foundations assuming that there is no ultimate Truth to get to, a much more crucial point.

That means that the conditions within which symbols and meanings are joined for a particular culture, in a particular socio-economic system, for a particular discourse, genre or discipline of study, have been exhaustively analysed and explored, rather than huffily taken off to a transcendent place called "Truth".

Again, analysed outside Religon's environment. A basic result of this separation can be seen when a scientist tries to explain to a Southern Baptist the jeopardy a hermaphrodite animal would cause in the Ark and gets laughed at, sometimes deeply pitied (hey, I didn't say it was *always* beautiful. Sometimes it backfires). This to say that Saussure's theories didn't have effect inside Religions' sphere of influence, and therefore they don't exist inside there.


(Byt the way, the thread took the direction of exploring a huige topic from the movie i.e. the concept of Truth and the possibility of its existence, how cool is that?)
 
 
Ganesh
00:08 / 10.04.04
Yeah, you brought the matter to be seen under the scope of cultural relativism and cultural subjectivity, in which works of art are not judged but merely analyzed, filed, and everyone's entitled to an opinion, even when talking about stuff they have no understanding or authority on.

... all of which seems, rather, to be another way of suggesting that those whose viewing of The Passion differed from your own are wrong - because, presumably, they lack sufficient "understanding or authority" to formulate a valid opinion.

But Deva answered this one rather better than I could.

Because, Ganesh, the argument you just wet-dreamed about here comes from a narrower perspective than its healthy twin's: The perspective of a millennia-old set of correlations between symbol and meaning, all based on the premise of Truth, which I'm afraid cannot be completely understood by a relativist's mind.

Aaaand I'm afraid you lack sufficient understanding or authority, Jade, to comment on the stickiness of my bedsheets. You're ejaculating assumptions and value judgments thick and fast, though, from the 'healthiness' or otherwise of individual ideas to my inability to properly percieve the impressively-capitalised (and therefore, one assumes, objective) "Truth" from which your own opinion - and, bottom line, it is an opinion - springs.

But hey, you're not the only one to have recently decried my woeful, mean-spirited failure to appreciate a far greater Truth: just yesterday, one of my patients expressed lofty disdain at my inability to see that the British Government has replaced the sun with a giant artifical sphere from which it fires narrow-beam military lasers at immigrants' gonads in order to stop them breeding. He didn't actually denounce me as a filthy 'relativist', but there y'go.

Or a 'sheep'. Seems we're a hop and a skip away from that well-worn path...

The perspective you crudely sketched here is based on someone worried about and concerned with the social consequences and significances of extreme graphic physical violence in movies. And of course, the occurrence of pornography.

"Worried about", "concerned with"? Nahh, more "interested in" and "expressing an opinion on" this particular movie. As are you.

Jade, if all subsequent discussion is going to fall into the same Why Your Opinion On The Passion Is Invalid/Unhealthy/Wank, then there seems little point in continuing. Having been foolish enough to pay good money for Mel Gibson to bludgeon me for the best part of two hours with his 'Truth', I'm getting just a li-i-ittle tired of repeating the experience with you. I don't have a great deal more to add; neither, I suspect, do you.
 
 
deja_vroom
01:17 / 10.04.04
I'm getting just a li-i-ittle tired of repeating the experience with you.

Fine.
 
 
deja_vroom
05:26 / 11.04.04
...Buut " if all subsequent discussion is going to fall into the same Why Your Opinion On The Passion Is Invalid/Unhealthy/Wank, then there seems little point in continuing." seems to be just another way of saying "stop saying that my point of view is stupid or I'll quit", which is just ridiculous and a privilege I'm not inclined to give, since proving your point of view to be inadequate constitutes a great part of *my* argument (being this a confrontation and not a mere comparison of ideas), and since we are grown-ups who happen to know that, within the vast range of different opinions out there, some just happen to be wank, naive or dishonest wank, I'd suggest you stop crying and raise your game and also stop pretending to be offended by my tone. Your precious opinion *is* wank and if you wanna quit, feel free to do so.

Sorry, but this is so ludicrous I could not resist.
 
 
m
07:53 / 11.04.04
I like to call movies such as the The Passion, "killing puppies" movies. Here's how you make one:
1. Ya get yourself some cute and/or extremely sympathetic main character, like a puppy.
2. You torture the puppy for a couple of hours, and the audience feels real bad.
3. You kill the puppy and the audience cries.
"Killing puppies" movies are real easy to make and they always work 'cause everyone feels bad for hurt puppies. Lars Von Triers loves to make "killing puppies" movies, too. Bjork's played the puppy, so has Emily Watson. Plot? Ya don't need it. Character development? Ya don't need it. Music? Lots of strings. Artful direction? All you need is slow motion. Killing puppies works better in slow motion.
Really, Mel Gibson has simply joined a long tradition of filmmakers who seem to think that it's somehow hard to make people sympathize with an innocent person being tortured over a long period of time. You could've nailed fuckin' Elmo from Sesame Street to the cross and The Passion would have worked just the same.
 
 
Ganesh
10:36 / 11.04.04
Jade, as far as I'm concerned, what we're doing here is precisely a comparison of ideas - or, rather, a comparison of opinions. I expressed my own, and you've essentially spent the last couple of pages telling me, in a variety of different (but enterprisingly arrogant) ways, that my opinion is invalid. I disagree - and the fact that the film did not 'recharge my hope-batteries' rather refutes your own overblown assertions that one "cannot not feel proud", "cannot not feel the joy" and "cannot not celebrate". I didn't feel proud, I didn't feel joyous, I didn't celebrate.

That's it. I genuinely didn't feel these things. We have a difference of opinion. You, however, seem to have rather more than I do invested in "proving" that I cannot legitimately have experienced The Passion in the way I did. That's fine by me: my opinion's not nearly as "precious" as yours and, as a filthy relativist, my viewpoint isn't especially contingent on trashing anyone else's. You can even call your opinion "Truth" (with a nice, shiny capital 'T') if it makes you happy. Don't imagine that you've "proved" anything, though, other than how petulantly overbearing you can be, when faced with honest disagreement.

So... not "offended", not "crying", not "quitting". Just bored with repeating myself within what is essentially a circular loop of 'no, you're a big poohead because I say you are'.

Knock yourself out.
 
 
Ganesh
10:42 / 11.04.04
You could've nailed fuckin' Elmo from Sesame Street to the cross and The Passion would have worked just the same.

Well, quite. Or even the Easter Bunny.
 
 
deja_vroom
20:07 / 11.04.04
And, matthew, I'm sorry you're the last to know it, but you're an idiot.
 
 
m
20:08 / 11.04.04
Yowch. It's come down to name calling has it?
 
 
deja_vroom
20:31 / 11.04.04
Believe me, I tried to think of something else to say, but this issue seemed pressing.
 
 
Ganesh
20:47 / 11.04.04
Yowch. It's come down to name calling has it?

Came to that a while back. That's what happens when one views The Passion and reaches conclusions different from Jade's. You idiot.

Clearly, you need to raise your game.
 
 
deja_vroom
21:00 / 11.04.04
It's over, it's over. Nothing to see here, kids. Go read this thread
 
 
m
21:51 / 11.04.04
Here's the message I took from the Passion, in the form of a Kurt Vonnegut quote: "Before you kill somebody, make absolutely sure he isn't well connected."
Gee, I feel more hopeful already!
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:57 / 12.04.04
Someone should tell those Evangelicals not to be handing out leaflets outside screenings of 'The Passion', the people are either going to be committed Christians already or unlikely to have been swayed one way or the other.

Being a godless atheist myself and someone who hasn't seen the film but has read the Bible, I just think it's a shame that Mel Gibson has, for reasons that I presume are to do with being a Catholic and therefore part of the Christian world that most closely models itself on the death cult, decided that the most important lesson that people can take from the life of Christ was his leaving of it. As I understand it the film starts right after Jesus has actually done* any of the revolutionary acts that put him at odds with the establishment, so I'm dubious about whether any of the theological messages of Christianity, love thy neighbour, be excellent to one another come through or whether it ends up just being about the amount of pain and suffering Jesus can take.

And Jade, please stop calling people idiots just because they dare to have differing opinions to you. It's not a very Christian attitude. Or maybe it is...

(* working on the assumption that any of this actually happened of course)
 
 
The Natural Way
09:51 / 12.04.04
Please Jade, try and understand this very. simple. point.

You're watching a film. You feel uplifted, moved even. You ascribe it to good film-making.

You're watching the Passion. You feel uplifted, moved even. You ascribe it to the heavenly realm and the power of truth.

Why? Because it's about Jesus? It is possible for something to be about Jesus, make you feel good and have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

Have you seen Braveheart, Jade? The Patriot? These are not films made by some holy man. They're made by a man whose view of the world involves a great deal of fear, mistrust, an enormous amount of excitement at the prospect of violence and a view of history straight out of Hollywood. Why's he suddenly all about THE TRUTH now? Because he's just made a film about Jesus? World without end......

And stop bloody well calling people "pharisees" and "idiots".
 
 
ibis the being
14:06 / 12.04.04
I still haven't seen The Passion but my father just did. His opinions about the movie were the same before and after he actually saw it. It was moving, amazing, exactly followed the gospels, and (this is a nearly direct quote), if you're not moved by this movie, you're quite simply not really a Christian.

My dad doesn't watch many movies and has been to a movie theater a handful of times. He lives in a rural area and the theaters there are tiny. For this he was in the Big City, in a 16-theater Multiplex with stadium seating. That alone clearly would affect how he was impacted by the film. He said the screen filled his field of vision and the sound system was incredible. He cried a few times, sometimes just from the look in a character's eye - "you knew just how they were feeling."

Dad, that is not divine inspiration, it's good acting, and a really huge movie screen. He insisted to me that Hollywood "didn't touch" this movie. Because Mel Gibson is... yeah... The fact that Mel got the gospels "exactly right" is supposed to point to its eternal truth, when really you're saying the guy closely adapted a written text. Miraculous!

I've read quite a bit of the Bible, and I don't remember there being a part that said, One day a prophet will come and show a magical moving picture to the world, and ye, all men who do not believe will not have eternal life, and they will gnash their teeth and perish. I'm sorry, I get really heated about the Passion hype. Now I probably won't ever watch it, bc no I don't need to see a movie of which the level of my appreciation is going to determine whether or not I'm really saved or a Christian. I refuse to suspend my critical facilities just to avoid being damned to hell!
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:12 / 12.04.04
Did you ask your Dad how it followed the Gospels exactly if Satan was there? How it could follow the Bible if Satan was portrayed as a woman?
 
 
Ganesh
14:34 / 12.04.04
And do we owe our table-centric dining experience to Jesus?
 
 
ibis the being
15:26 / 12.04.04
Well, see that's exactly the problem. Any such logical questions or observations about the Passion as a film (rather than a divinely inspired evangelical work) elicit just one answer: You've missed the point and you don't have the Spirit. As we've already seen happen in this thread. I won't discuss the movie with my dad at all.
 
 
Ganesh
15:26 / 12.04.04
To be honest, Flowers, I think Satan's portrayed more as an androgyne. It's a female actor, sure, and there's the Madonna & Mini-Me thing, but apparently a reedy male voice was dubbed in for the Garden of Gethsemane opener, making the portrayal more gender-ambiguous.

The fact that Mel got the gospels "exactly right"

This is pretty much my main concern about the film, Ibis: it'll be accepted uncritically by many as a near-exact depiction of How It Really Was. I had a similar, slightly tense exchange recently with the standard-issue Office Christian (a pleasant enough Nigerian gentleman), on the third day of my new job:

OC: It is a very good film.

Me (mindful of antagonising colleagues I've only just met): I certainly thought it was beautifully shot...

OC: You liked it?

Me: (cautiously) I... guess I thought the whipping and stuff went on a little long.

OC: But that is how it happened.

Me: It's certainly one interpretation of the Gospels...

OC: No, it's not an interpretation. That is what happened.

Me: Well... I guess it depends what one believes when one enters the cinema.

OC: It is a good film, because it shows how Our Lord suffered.

Me (realising this isn't likely to go anywhere nice): I'm, uh, glad you liked it. Now! Paperwork!

In fact, Gibson's lifted quite a bit from the writings of Anne Catherine Emmerich an 18th/19th "mystic, stigmatist, visionary and prophet" - as well as applying liberal daubings of artistic license (the table-making scene, Jesus's "I make everything anew" to Mary during the Second Fall, on the way to Golgotha).
 
 
Rev. Orr
01:31 / 14.04.04
if you're not moved by this movie, you're quite simply not really a Christian.

With all due respect to posters' parental units (who, presumably have no right to reply) this is exactly the attitude to this film that pumps me so full of self-righteous indignation, bile, and sheer, hard-core, fire-and-brimstone fucking fury. This is not a 'Christian' film; this is the mission-statement of a particularly extreme and wacky sub-sect of the Catholic faith. Yeah, I may well be slightly too far into the 'fluffy bunny, be excellent to one another' school of Protestant, low-church Christianity, but there was precious little in this film that represented my faith.

That's fine. I didn't make it and a so-called auteur has no responsibility to any vision other than his/her own. But, to justify the film on this level is to insist that it is judged on artistic terms as you would any other film. As soon as it is no longer presented as an individual creative act and held up as a 'Christian' film, as a religious action or a representative, doctrinal or worse, instructional text then its obsessions, innacuracies, hatred and fucked-up ideologies have to be opposed. I suppose I left the cinema with a similar response to Deva's: where was the love? Where was the teaching, the redemption, the humanity and the divine compassion? All I was left with after two hours of relentless ketchup and the blank stare of Mel's meat-puppet Jesus was a feeling of empty exhaustion. There are many reasons why Christmas remains popular as a secular festival and Easter is stuck as a Bank Holiday/DIY opportunity, but the fact remains that it's trickier and more disturbing, particulary if you're not in the club as it were.

Celebrating the tortured death of an individual is a particularly twisted thing to do and requires justification. My personal understanding of the Easter message is irrelevant in this thread, but the sacrifice is only one critical element, theologically, of a wider story. To focus on the pain, suffering and death, without giving, at the very least, equal weighting to the mystery of divine incarnation, the earthly ministry, the resurrection and the resultant impact on humanity after all of this, is perverse in the extreme. To be sure, after the blood, sweat and tears are done, Mel's Jesus cleans up nicely, but we're presented with precious little explanation for why the hell he went through with it all.

In the end, for me, the film fails upon any scrutiny of its internal structure and support. It is impossible to read it as anything other than a celebration of violence without relying on information from without the work. Not only that, but in order to read the film as the creator claims he intended, the viewer has to carefully prune such sources to those that have been approved. Many other versions of the story of Christ's life (or the end of it) have been idiosyncratic or possessed of a singular view-point, but I cannot think of any that have so singularly failed to support their own purported agenda. If Gibson's intent is a plain, unslanted, 'historical' (and my extreme discomfort at that term can wait for another thread) account of events he believes transpired - and all we are missing is the 'based on a true story' caption at the beginning - then why all the alterations and deviations from the written sources? Why increase the punishment inflicted to Christ's body? Why ignore His actions earlier in Jerusalem so that the authorities' antipathy seems all the more prejudicial? Why flash-back to the cringe-worthy Spielbergian early-years rather than any of the canonical stories? Why not include any of the teachings of His years on the road or make them unintelligible when pictured? What's the Devil doing in this film?

The only answer I can come up with is that Gibson's faith is truly an empty vessel of hate. Jesus rising to his feet to take more punishment from the soldiers has far more in common with Rocky raising his battered face to take one last shot at Apollo Creed, than turning the other cheek in pacifistic love. To leech guilt away from the occupying Roman authorities because not to do so could be read as an attack on contempoary America (whether conscious or more-likely not) is to deny vital tenets of the teaching supposedly central to the story. The divine example we are asked to follow in this version of the Passion is to 'take it like a (Son-of-)Man'; that hollow, bloody machismo and pointless suffering are both the result of the machinations of the forces of darkness and, literally, a path to redemption. That these forces are personified both as a tempting, androgenous figure of pure evil, and as a conniving cabal of Jewish caricatures operating behind the scenes is deeply disturbing. However, what shook me most, was the way that someone had taken a story that, to me, is a deeply-personal tale of sublime, almost incomprehensible love and shrunk it to a squalid romp through violence and blinkered, impotent hate. All sound and fury, it signified nothing.
 
  

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