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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Angel Season 5 UK

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08:30 / 14.01.04

Thought there may be a demand for this.

Like the new premise, though it may be difficult for the creators to keep it all together. I can see it getting sprawling and messy. Hopefully with Joss having a bigger involvement this won't be a problem. Boringanus is getting a little too chuncky for a vampyre, in my opinion. Although having said that he does eat an apple this week. A vampyre presumably can't do much with those calories so it's going to go right to his girth. I can let it go, I guess.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:00 / 14.01.04

[Cross posted:] It was pretty good - not a stand-out episode due to too much exposition and a really annoying "see, Fred is good at running a lab!" sub-plot. Plus Eve is kind of irritating too - maybe she's meant to be, though. Still, this episode did have possibly the funniest Angel line ever...

Angel: "I have absolutely no problem spanking men." [/cross-posting]

Boreanz looks broader than ever but these days it looks less like flabbiness and more like someone who works out, which is more in keeping with the character. I kept getting distracted by Angel's new hair though (bigger, less product), and his fancy new pinstripes. But in general I thought he did a good job of showing where the character is now: he's trying to move on from everything that happened over the last couple of seasons, and despite his misgivings he quite enjoys the perks of being a CEO, but every now and again something's going to remind him about Connor. The close-up where he's on the phone (after finding out about Fries' kid) was really well done, all the emotion shown in the way he's gripping the receiver like he's about to crush it and straining his forehead.

My one real worry is that Wesley, Gunn, Fred and Lorne are going to be sidelined. Okay, so Lorne's always been more or less a comic relief sidekick, but the other three have had decent, often morally complicated storylines in the past couple of seasons, and it would be a pity to see them get neglected in favour of, say, a certain blondie bear. So I was pleased to see that Wesley is still Guns & Stubble Wes, packing a gun in a courtroom because his back-up plan is to shoot their own client in the head if things go wrong...

Speaking of guns, less happily, the Gunn storyline so far is dodgy as fuck. "He was this brawler from the streets, right? Good at fighting but not too good with the book-learning? And then he had a mystical moment with a panther! And now some scientists have filled his brain up with lawyer stuff!" Unless the point is that what Eve meant by "unused potential" is that Gunn *was* actually always the smart one, he just didn't know it. Okay, it makes some kind of sense, because it means now he's the clever guy in the suit and Wesley is the gritty fighting guy, which is a nice reversal. Still...

09:50 / 14.01.04

but the fact they had to strap him into a very uncomfortable-looking machine to do it was fun. it gives him something to do this season and has made his obvious character less predictable. and they've sent him evil too, forgetting his buddies on the streets who he could be giving jobs to.

was good, but was whedon, so there go. the way fred and wes met like ships passing in the office stuck with me. so many interactions are like that. it makes the whole premise of the show seem a bit more grown up. that and the fact that life is shared with people you want to slap a lot of the time, like knox and eve.

dave, fresh from a million dido-burgers, is fat as fuck but you got ter love him, though his hair gets all the best lines. all together now: 'i won't put up with this shit..'

and the theme of this years tv shows is hero vs. swat team. (what about the adverts for the nanomachineman series?! i can smell that one already) and the punisher.

and the cheering in my living room when spike appeared in the credits, best moment in the house of 04 so far, not including saturday night of course.

10:18 / 14.01.04

I was surprised to see Harmony there! The fact that Spike was gonna be in it was spoilered ages ago but no one mentioned Harmony. Excellent stuff.

And Gunn has complete knowledge of the law now. And hair. Ok. Let's wait and see.

Lorne's being set up for a fall, I reckon. He's the most easily led.

Did anyone else wish that Eve's role was played by Lyla instead?

Tryphena Absent

10:20 / 14.01.04

They had that whole office atmosphere down nicely. As to this- not a stand-out episode due to too much exposition and a really annoying "see, Fred is good at running a lab!" sub-plot-
Flyboy, you're talking utter and complete toss. The girl wasn't running a lab, she was stressing out, what kind of good boss yells 'you're evil' at her employees? Hmmmm? Is that what you'd do if you wanted to command your minions in the good fight? Yeah, that's gonna motivate!

Jack The Bodiless

12:02 / 14.01.04

But... they are evil. Employees of an evil law firm run by demons. Do you see?

Fly - not sure why you're objecting so much to the Gunn storyline... he's never been pushed as stupid, only as undereducated compared to the two-century-old vampires, science-geniuses and brainiacs that are the rest of the gang. He's had his moments in the previous seasons, he's not a dumb fucker...

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:59 / 14.01.04

It was around the time they started referring to him as "the muscle" of the gang that I got irritated. Mind you, it was Fred who said that first, and almost everything she says irritates me, so maybe that explains it.

What I want to know is when Gunn's going to call that lightning chick again.

13:20 / 14.01.04

Yeah where the furk is Gwen! I told Joss that it was shit that she just disappeared and so he put in some wrestlers just to keep me happy but it just doesn't cut it...

Eve is hot though, right? right?

I like reading this, it's nice to see the suprise of the spoiler free people....

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:10 / 14.01.04

Ewww, no, Eve is not hot, bear. She is "perky": bleurgh.

Regarding seeing Angel eat, in one of the shittest Angel episodes ever (the one where Buffy comes to visit and he becomes human but then has to turn back time) it's revealed that although vampires can eat, they don't get any sustenance from food and it never tastes the way it should. However, Spike has been more and more obsessd with food, the taste of beer, etc, over the course of the last few seasons of Buffy - so my own personal wanky explanation for this is that it's just Angel who couldn't find any joy in eating normal food as a vampire, because he was such a misery guts. So it's nice to see him eating and ordering coffee these days.

Tryphena Absent

14:17 / 14.01.04

it was Fred who said that first, and almost everything she says irritates me, so maybe that explains it

Is that because she's like a lesser season two Willow?

Perhaps Spike likes the alternative tastes, if it doesn't taste how it should, it still tastes like something.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:26 / 14.01.04

Perhaps Spike likes the alternative tastes

Listens to The Ramones, likes BDSM... Yeah, I think this is well established. But seriously, I always thought it was in keeping with the fact that Spike was so immersed in human culture - always been a bit of a music geek, watches soap operas, etc.

14:28 / 14.01.04

Spike and his blood and Weetabix of course...

You know thinking about it I don't think I've ever liked Gunn, law skills or not. The character is just so cheesy, like someones mum trying to write cool. Along the same lines of Faith being more "street" in the final season of Buffy.

I think Eve will have more to do later on, I like the line about her saying "How do you know I'm either of those?" That's this episode right?

Tryphena Absent

14:42 / 14.01.04

Hey, if you smoke you're street. It's the American way.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:45 / 14.01.04

I think the biggest problem with Gunn is that some of the writers of the show know what embarrassing cliches to avoid, and some don't. Basically the contradictions in Gunn's character and how he got from there to here have to be written very well in order to avoid him seeming either a) wildly inconsistent, b) a bit of a git, who'll leave his buddies to fight for their lives in cardboard city while he lives in a posh hotel. At worst, trying to reconcile this leads to some truly cringe-inducing dialogue: the ballet dancers are "tight" and "tripping him out", eh Joss? And as for that whole "he swapped his soul for a car - it's like he got in on layaway!" business, well...

Jack The Bodiless

12:00 / 15.01.04

Dude, you worry. Far. Too. Much. The whole "it's a car" thing was a silly throwaway ending. It wasn't supposed ot mean anything, and has never been referred to since. And, for the record

a) Angel's always drunk coffee, right from the first season,

b) Gunn's the one who keeps calling himself "the muscle", due to his feelings of inadequacy around the whole Fred/Wesley dynamic, and

c) street vs. straight? I tend to suspend disbelief on aspects like Gunn's 'street dialogue'. Not being a bitch or nuffin, but I don't live in the inner-city USA, I'm not 'street', and neither are you or any of the people writing Angel. No offence to anyone, but if you really think that listening to a lot of hip hop means you know what's 'down' with da kids, then I'm sorry, but yo bedda check yoself. Or some such rubbish. Basically - this stuff is changing and warping on a daily basis, and we're not the ones at the sharp end - and neither are Snoop, Jay-Z or 50 Cent anymore, come to that. By the time we hear it, it's out of date and a bit sad. Thinking like that keeps you sane when you get old and uncool, trust me... it also helps you ignore what could be considered infelicities in script on occasions such as this.

But, inconsistencies in Gunn's character aside, they had to do something with him. He's been doing sweet FA for, what, two years now? His relationship with Fred was never believable enough to count as development - at least now he's got an arc of his own, however it ends up turning out.

Oh, by the way - Eve SUCKS. She's RUBBISH. I HATE her. So they're probably going to keep her around and do amazing things with her, if history is anything to judge by.

12:16 / 15.01.04

I think maybe I am getting old, Angel just doesn't seem the same anymore and watching old Buffy does nothing for me (apart from the few stand out episodes).

I just feel (and I might be way off) that maybe the network has been pushing for changes? Like guns being featured much more heavily, I think I remember reading an interview with Joss where he stated that he would never use them because he likes to keep things in the fantasy realm.

but if you really think that listening to a lot of hip hop means you know what's 'down' with da kids I dunno I just think it's so forced that they shouldn't bother - and dude I think your forgetting I'm from the Block....

Yeah Eve probably is rubbish, fuck Angel and Buffy - there's nothing on TV that I like anymore, well maybe Curb your Enthusiasm but that's about it.

12:44 / 15.01.04

On the Gunn thing, I can see why they had to do something with the character, but they could have handled it in a slightly less cack-handed way. I think it's a really bad example of character development. They've made some equally extreme changes to the original characters of Wesley and Cordelia, but these changes grew out of the various arcs that they were involved in, with their personalities adapting to new situations, bringing new things out of them, etc... With Gunn it feels like they've just hit the re-set button cos they couldn't be bothered writing him.

To my mind, if they're going to keep him as a major member of the cast they could have at least given him a decent arc to facilitate his development and make him more interesting. I mean, the original character of Wesley was more of a ludicrous stereotype than Gunn ever was, and they managed to resolve that without recourse to the sudden intervention of a magic panther.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:41 / 16.01.04

Mutant Enemy have never been that good at character development as such, their modus operandi has often been to have a character moan about things for a couple of episodes, then change them in some way. The fight with the SWAT Team seemed to be to fill Angel's requisite arse-kicking quota for the episode, rather than being completely necessary.

Despite that, it felt a much better episode than one where the bad guy is an eight-foot tall demon that Angel's best punch doesn't even move. And it's an interesting case, even if Angel picked it up 'accidentally', if bad guy had succeeded then almost everyone in LA and possibly the world would be dead, despite everything I think that would have put W&H in a bit of a bind as they waited for the cockroaches to build a society that they could influence. So it was to their benefit for Angel to sort the problem out, though I do find it a bit dodgy that Gunn ex Machina can find a solution to a problem that a W&H lawyer can't. Still, anything's better than the Gunn we had from the last episode of last season.

Harmony. Oh for fucks sake. Bad enough they brought Spike back, but bringing her back too? Evil or not, she's so inept I can't believe W&H would give her a job. She was a one-dimensional character when she was alive, in death she's managed to refine that into the uberness of 1-D. The only part of the episode with her that didn't have me in a full body cringe was her "blondy-bear?" comment at the end.

Can't really comment on Spike now, have to wait for the explanation next week. I don't know whether to hope he's still got a soul, evil again, or evil with a chip. Any or all three of the above will be a unfortunate retreat from the good death he had at the end of Buffy. Very disappointing, especially as we know he was put in the show and THEN Joss had to work out why and how.

So, a good start episode, but then the first episode of Buffy's last season was good too. So I'm cautious to see where this goes...

17:32 / 17.01.04

Don't mind Harmony turning up again. It struck me that it kind of makes sense that she's onside. Her shallowness in life has become almost a virtue in undeath. Her selfish desires are what makes her faithfil to the boss. She want's to climb the W&H ladder and knows which side her bread is buttered; and, well, I'm only really watching this because it takes place in the Buffyverse and pretty much any elements carried accross from my favourite TV show are welcome.

Whisky Priestess

01:52 / 19.01.04

Irrelevant to the 5th series but can anyone tell me when why Gunn and Fred split up? The given reason, not the real one that it was a pathetic plot device to defer viewer gratification to be found in the inevitable Fred/Wes coupling.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:45 / 19.01.04

Essentially: Fred found out that this guy had been responsible for (deliberately) opening the portal that sucked her into Pylea. She went after him intending to kill him, but Gunn got there first and did the job. Shortly thereafter, their relationship began to go downhill, because even though he did it for her, Fred couldn't quite cope with the fact that Gunn was a killer (whether he'll ever have to answer for his actions hasn't been addressed... yet).

Regrettable Juvenilia

19:11 / 03.02.04

Posting as I watch, but I just wanted to say that the pre-credits shock this week was the most successfully crrrrrrreepy, nasty thing either this show or its inferior-for-the-last-three-years sibling has done in a long time. That sawing sound... ugh!

19:44 / 03.02.04

Yeah, what a great episode, eh? I've read the synopses for the next five episodes, and those of you looking for things to happen with Gunn are in for a surprise...

20:36 / 03.02.04

I don't know, the episode seemed a bit by the book, throwing every ghost film in together. The learning to touch objects was pure Swayze, the lost souls were reminscent of Thirteen Ghosts, and of course there's the noble sacrifice and the ironic punishment. Plus how clunky was Gunn's law-burp?
Um, and yes, I know I haven't said anything in this thread yet and have waded in with criticisms. I'm enjoying this series so far and the episode had its good touches, from Angel saying he liked Spike's poetry to the nicely nasty opening sequence. Just thought it could be better.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:52 / 03.02.04

The conversation between Angel and Spike was a nice touch, and in general their hate/ho-yay! relationship is the best thing about the latter's presence on the show, as expected. The pedant in me wants to make tiny continuity quibbles like "Spike never knew Angel(us) when he called himself Liam" or "Angel(us) never knew Spike when he wrote poetry", but it's worth glossing over (Spike was just trying to annoy him; Angelus probably read William's poems to mock him and souled Angel remembers them, but likes them) because the actors seem to be able to pull off the sense of history these guys have.

But my God, how low is Angel at this point, on the basis of that conversation? Having saved the world a few times but lost several of the people he cared about most, he now believes he can never be redeemed and is only being the good guy out of habit. Which is why, I guess, he seems happiest when executing baroque and extreme forms of punishment. I'm sure this will be addressed, and equally sure life will get a lot worse for him first.

08:12 / 04.02.04

they're both just called william aren't they? liam wasn't in use as a name in seventeen-whatever (don't know that for a fact, just reckon)

i know it's only a tv show and things like that don't really matter

the extreme justice angle they're going for at the moment creeps me out, every episode leaves a nasty taste. they should have gone a bit further with the reaper/tumblety thing last night imho, but a good ep. want spike to get some fisty in soon though.

11:01 / 06.02.04

their hate/ho-yay! relationship is the best thing about the latter's presence on the show

They love each other very much, don't they? Have to say the only thing I'm enjoying so far this season is (are?) the frequent and increasingly obvious nods to the slash fans. Sigh. Mutant Enemy are luring me in with the clearly delusional hope that maybe this time they'll end the season with some boy-on-boy kissing.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:48 / 06.02.04

MILD SPOILERS

Deva, in the episode 'Destiny' which sould be on in three and a half weeks, there's a flashback to Angelus and Spike's first meeting which I suspect will make you very, very happy. Finally seems to confirm something which hasn't really been hinted since Buffy Season 2 (although I thought there was a nod to it this week when Angel grudgingly referred to how Spike could be very charming...).

Jack The Bodiless

16:36 / 06.02.04

Yes, because that's the most interesting thing about the developing dynamic between these two characters. That they clearly fancy each other. Yes.

15:20 / 07.02.04

'Fraid so, Jack: like I said, I'm finding this season pretty tedious, and I never thought either Angel or Spike was an interesting character in the first place. Good slash relationships bring out something interesting in both characters, something that wouldn't be there without the interaction between them - in the best instances, something crucial to the dynamic and interest of the fictional world:* in this case, I'm just holding out for some snogging, as I have to lure myself through an hour of uninspired TV somehow.**

*Oddly enough, the closest Angel has got to this for me was the Angel/Cordelia relationship, though the plot arc leading up to the big Angel/wesley bust-up between them was also a good example of the way a whole fictional world and its workings can be built out of character dynamics.

**Because the only time I see my friend T. is at the weekly Angel-wine-and-cake meetings.

Jack The Bodiless

17:19 / 07.02.04

Right. I find both Angel and Spike to be very interesting characters myself, and am greatly enjoying the new season so far - I can also see really interesting things happening in the future. I can see the potential slashtastic dynamic there, obviously - but I can also see fascinating (to me) possibilities regarding: their shared ensouled situation (how is Spike coping so much better than Angel? Because he think he earned it? Because he's more shallow? Because he's still to hit the vast abyss of bile and self-loathing that Angel hit? Because the times are different? Because the method of ensoulment varied?); their shared experience of Buffy (she loved Angel, but she had a 'proper' relationship with Spike, who may understand her better); the Shan-shu prophecy (so which vampire with a soul does it refer to?); their past together when both were evil (they loathed each other then, but why? Personality clash? Jealousy?); their twisted 'family' relationship via Drusilla...

The slashable element is one in a stew, and it's one they won't play out onscreen - which doesn't invalidate it by any stretch, or course, but makes speculation less intrinsic to the unfolding season, and more of a hypothetical kind.

Regrettable Juvenilia

16:41 / 08.02.04

It might not be the most interesting element to their relationship, but it's something that was implied heavily once (when Angelus returned, Spike being in a wheelchair was a good excuse to leave him out of the "play" but it wasn't ever thus) and has never really been mentioned again. And it adds an extra twist to their dynamic. Like I said, wait for 'Destiny'...

08:06 / 09.02.04

it adds an extra twist to their dynamic

Or it's a metaphor that recapitulates the whole of their dynamic, if you see what I mean: adding sexual tension to a relationship is a fairly standard narrative way of flagging up that relationship as significant (Mulder/Scully, etc). After all, fancying each other isn't going to suddenly obliterate their twisted family dynamics, Buffy issues and mutual soul envy, it just gives them another arena in which to play those things out.

Not, as I said, that I care particularly. I miss Cordelia. Hell, I miss Fred: now they've left the hotel, somehow all the interrelationships that have been built up over the past four seasons seem to have been reset. No-one seems to want anything in particular (apart from Spike, who wants to stay in the series - and guess what? He's in the credits! See me not tremble with suspense!), no-one seems to have any particular feelings for each other; I'm not quite sure what I'm meant to be watching or why. I mean, the first couple of episodes, fair enough (if slightly clunky) - introduce Angel to Spike fans and vice versa - but I still don't have a hook. They fight monsters, their departments go over budget... ehhh.

You who are enjoying it, what is your hook? Is it the Angel/Spike (or Angel-Spike) relationship?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:23 / 09.02.04

At this stage, a lot of it is waiting for the other shoe to drop. I expect that the "clean slate" aspect of the show at present is misdirection. You're right that things have been "re-set" to a certain extent: some of that has been done on Angel's instructions to the minds of his friends, without their consent. Considering the extent to which the series has previously been about how inescapable history is, especially where Angel himself is concerned, this cannot last, not can it end well. I suspect Wes in particular might be a little traumatised were he to suddenly remember exactly how he betrayed Angel two seasons ago. Other things that may end terribly: Gunn's brain enhancement and general surprising enthusiasm for working at W&H, possibly in specific relation to his relationship with the Conduit/"big cat"; Fred's attraction to Knox.

Whisky Priestess

19:03 / 09.02.04

...if only because Wes will rend the living flesh from the man's bones if Knox ever even attempts to slip Fred one.

Did we get to the episode where Wes's dad turns up yet, or did I miss it? And how come I keep missing Angel? This can't be right ...

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