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Return of the King (spoilers)

 
  

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Hieronymus
05:06 / 22.12.03
*sidesteps the patch of nasty threadrot*

That's what I thought too, Keg. Better AT-ATs than the AT-ATs.

Despite the tiny unmentionable stumbles, I do believe THAT's how you wrap up a film trilogy. With humanity. Not FX explosions. Hollywood knobs such be taking notes.

The extended ed can't come fast enough for me.
 
 
illmatic
10:37 / 22.12.03
Seems like I'm the only one (bar the newly named Mike Robot) who thought this was patchy. Way, way, way to long. Really didn't need the 95 extra endings on a film that was already bloated. I wanted to sream "ENOUGH!!" I felt it was all getting very prog rock towards the end. After that amount of time it'd lostit's emotional hold on me. Also, maybe I've been on Barbelith too long but I couldn't help see all the Hobbit inter-relationships as slashtastic, all the manly and meaningful staring into each others eyes. My emotions react best if teased subtly, not jerked around violently, nI thought the emotional tones in the film were cliched and about as subtle as being hit with a brick - yeah, I know it's a fantasy epic, what did I expect? But again, I wanted to scream "fuck off" at all the extolling the virtues of brotherly love and good, clean-living friendship. Fucking elves and fucking hobbits. Grrr. Saccherine is putting it mildly - yes, I know it's a fantasy film not Pedro Almaldovarbut still. ...

Having said that, much of the film rocked extremly hard. The battle scenes were awesome, the giant murderous elephants rocked. Golem at the end was stunning, and as for Shelob.... God, I'm glad I'm not an archanaphobe. I thought it was good basically but it didn't manage to hold my attention in the samw way as the prvious two.
 
 
gridley
13:43 / 22.12.03
Wow. I have to say I was not particularly blown away by the first two films, mostly because there wasn't anything that made me care about the chracters. I didn't think they were very well defined or interesting.

But that has completely changed with this third film. I was totally blown away and captivated by the stuggles of each of the four hobbits. As well as Eowyn. Much cheering and tearing in many parts in the film.

Left me feeling quite warm and fuzzy.
 
 
Mr Tricks
15:26 / 22.12.03
hmm.. I still get chilling thinking of camping out on the edge of that stairway... especially with Golum "sleeping" above me!!!!

I've also heard there will be a DVD edition that will re-edit the 3 movies to be one 10+ hour long film...er DVD...er Multiple DVD's.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
16:08 / 22.12.03
Yeah. That vertiginous horror was captured perfectly. I've had many a nightmare where I was precariously standing on the edge of something. And it was just like that.
 
 
cusm
19:13 / 22.12.03
I'm not a huge fan of Dungeons and Dragons type fantasy

Actually, its Germanic Epic. Having gotten around to reading the lot of Eddic Saga recently before seeing this film, it was every bit as good a preparation as reading Tolkien's work. I've picked up a lot more of the places he's lifting from traditional sagas. For instance, Golum=Fafnir, White Tree = Yggdrazil, Aragon = Sigurth (his blade being Sigurth's blade, too), The Ring = the same bit from Neibelungenleid, Volsung, and similar derived stories. Hell, even a bunch of the names are lifted directly. Gandalf, for one. Even Murkwood.

I think this is in part why its been so successful an epic on its own. Tolkien wasn't writing fantasy, he was writing adapted mythology. And his attempt is a damn bit more approachable than Wagners.

Oh, and Mike, the bits about elves and dwarves are from traditional northern european folk lore, too, not the Monster Manual. Show how well read you are, won't you.

Anyway, sniping aside, the sheer grandeur had me leaking on numerous occasions. Jackson really managed to build up the epic feel to properly overwhelming proportions. I was glad for the extended epilouge. It gave me time to collect myself before facing the world again once the action was done. Stunning. Really. It did the story justice.

I do hope the bit with Wormy chucking the palantir at Gandalf makes it into the DVD cut, though.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
07:53 / 23.12.03
I kinda dug the slashtasticness, even though I'm not a slash reader. I think it's because I heard from somewhere (here?) that the actors behind Sam and Frodo had the gay reading at least partially in mind because Ian McKellen had claimed it was an important one to a lot of readers.

I tried to imagine the film really ending after each pseudo-ending, and I think it ended with the right one. There were many character threads needing some kind of denouement, but since so much of the story was a tension between 'let's have adventures' and 'hobbits are homebodies' that there had to be an ending for each: Frodo off into the sunset, Sam returning home.

I think my favorite bit was how the tension over the ring had been so constantly built and built and built, from when it was first in Bilbo's home (and, goddamn, how I love how when it hits the floor it THUDS like it weighs a ton) that when the motherfucker finally melted, there was such a palpable sense of relief.

One thing I'm curious about: since I never read the books, keeping me in suspense was easy. Even though, obviously, they were going to make it to the volcano, I found myself barely believing they'd managed it; furthermore, I half-expected Frodo to be unable to let the ring go, and just toss himself in. Did the film manage to be suspenseful for the rest of you?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:29 / 23.12.03
CameronStewart I absolutely loved every frame of RotK, and openly wept at the end. "You bow to no one." Niagara Falls!

OK, this is how it breaks down for me:

Post-destruction of the Ring, Sam and Frodo find the only bit of the mountain not covered in lava and wait for the end. Frodo, free from the burden of the Ring, can remember how life used to be. Sam laments never telling Rose how he felt. Few tears there

The Reuniting of the Fellowship in Minas Tirith- Aragorn's crowning- Minas Tirith bowing to the Halflings. There go a few more

The hobbits return to the Shire. Sam plucks up the courage to ask Rose and she says 'yes'. One more tear there

The last journey of the Fellowship to the Grey Havens. Bilbo gets on the boat, followed by Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel. Gandalf walks towards it, then turns back to Frodo... At this point the cinema has to be evacuated due to a sudden flash flood

"Well, I'm back."
 
 
Jack Vincennes
09:08 / 23.12.03
Did the film manage to be suspenseful for the rest of you?

Certainly -even though I've read the books (and reread them before seeing the first film) I was still all but holding my breath throughout the entire volcano scene. In fact, that scene in the film was far more tortuous than the one in the book, so as soon as Frodo and Gollum started fighting I thought "but what if the film ends differently?" and any vaguely blase thoughts about "knowing how it ends" were entirely gone.

Heartily approved of the 'biting finger off' embellishment, too.

Minas Tirith bowing to the Halflings.
Yes...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:05 / 23.12.03
Right, now I've caught up with the rest of the thread...

I can't believe when Peter Jackson et al said that making 'The Two Towers' was more difficult than 'RotK', that surely was fairly simple with only three sets of characters and one fight scene, in this we had about four seperate sets of characters (five if you include the Faramir arc) and two enormous fight scenes, the Battle of Pelenor Fields being amazing.

The quibbles were few, I agree with those that said splitting Frodo and Sam up before Shelob was a mistake, I don't think it added anything, did anyone, even those who haven't read 'LotR' think Sam was going to give up and go home? The orc tower afterwards was by necessity rushed to it's detriment, it might have done better with being cut. And considering the emphasis made on the iconic drawings of Howe and Lee, it's odd that Jackson chose not to go for the one of Shelob trying to crush Sam while he stabs her with Sting, as it was it looked a little confused, was it clear to people who hadn't read the books how Sam drove her off?

But otherwise, starting with the story of Smeagol and Deagol was great, and a chance for everyone to see the real Andy Serkis. So the hand from 'FotR' was Deagol's after all! Considering that Gollum was redesigned to look more like Serkis, the transformation of Smeagol into Gollum was amazing.

The Denethor/Faramir relationship wasn't handled particularly well, by not giving Denethor a palantir and by making pretty much the first thing he says be that he will not step aside for Aragorn makes him a bit of a one dimensional baddy. I do think the tensions of the film would have been better and less complicated if he had followed more closely the arc of the character in the book.

The battle of the Pelenor Fields, what can I say? To top the Battle of Helm's Deep and not loose sight of the individuals involved. Theoden's death was a moist eyes moment, "I know you..." and I think not going into the whole Dernhelm thing with Eowyn was a good idea. And then for Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas to arrive in the ships, the orcs all grin thinking they've got an easy victory, and then the Pirates of the Carribean swarm out... Legolas leaping up the Oliphant, I was grinning wide enough to crack my face at that point.

It's a real shame that we don't have Saruman, or the Scouring of the Shire, I wonder if they cut that for time reasons or because they were worried it wouldn't be popular with non-book fan viewers? What we got was probably the second best option, but why didn't Frodo give Sam Bag End?
 
 
CameronStewart
13:14 / 23.12.03
>>>Heartily apporoved of the 'biting finger off' embellishment, too<<<

Not an embellishment - after seeing the film I was skimming through the book for comparison and Gollum bites Frodo's finger off in the book also.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:49 / 23.12.03
The Denethor/Faramir relationship wasn't handled particularly well, by not giving Denethor a palantir and by making pretty much the first thing he says be that he will not step aside for Aragorn makes him a bit of a one dimensional baddy. I do think the tensions of the film would have been better and less complicated if he had followed more closely the arc of the character in the book.

I have to say, this was an early killer for me, as Faramir's Magnolia/Stanley Spector/"Dad, you have to be nicer to me" moment, where's he's all, "Should I return, I would that you thought better of me." got me all choked up, and way before the movie even made it to the halfway point.

Much of the emotional weight and its inherent deadly accuracy comes from the really fantastic work of the cast. Faramir, Aragorn, Gandalf, and Pippin were all stand-outs and their work could've easily crumbled under the weight of baroque phrasing and silliest names this side of the Misty Mountain. But when Aragorn turns away from his temptation at the Black Gate, closing the thread that was started alllll the way at the end of Fellowship ("I would have followed you to the very end"), and then just turns around and says, "For Frodo," whoo! I would've pulled out a sword if I had one, damn it!

Also, someone else mentioned the excellent characterization of the Ring itself, and that was something I'd lost in the gap between movies. Once I viewed Fellowship and Towers together, though, that sense of the Ring's menace carries through and is all the more powerful (and that killer shot from Gollum through the ring is all the more goosebumping).

As my roomate put so succinctly as we watched Two Towers last night, "This really is just a treasury of badassery."
 
 
Jack Vincennes
14:46 / 23.12.03
Gollum bites Frodo's finger off in the book also

Ah right -will have to read ROTK again! I'd remembered that Gollum went charging after the Ring while Frodo was dithering at the edge, and the momentum just carried him into the fire... so when Frodo started putting the Ring on, it made the whole thing particularly tortuous for me.
 
 
cusm
16:04 / 23.12.03
[sings]
Frodo, of the nine fingers, and the cracks of doom...
 
 
CameronStewart
17:53 / 23.12.03
>>>I'd remembered that Gollum went charging after the Ring while Frodo was dithering at the edge, and the momentum just carried him into the fire... so when Frodo started putting the Ring on, it made the whole thing particularly tortuous for me. <<<

The scene in the book as is pretty much as it is portrayed in the film - Frodo puts on the Ring, Gollum charges and grapples with the invisible Frodo, biting off his finger, and Gollum's dance of triumph at reclaiming the Ring sends him toppling over the edge (I think that part is kind of weak, actually, so I'm glad they added the bit with Frodo tackling Gollum to push him over the edge).
 
 
Brigade du jour
19:18 / 23.12.03
Shit, yeah man. I don't get particularly scared of either heights or spiders, but ROTK changed all that. But it was a good kind of scared. An instinctive scared. A don't go up in any very tall spider's nests kind of scared.
 
 
Brigade du jour
19:24 / 23.12.03
That last comment of mine was in reference to Benjamin Birdie's vertigo comment. A whole page earlier. Sorry, I'm sleepy. And it's Christmas. Um ... and I'm just not paying attention.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
19:34 / 23.12.03
Yes, I've just re-read that scene specifiaclly and have no idea whence I was hallucinating the ending I was talking about.

And while Felicia's talking about matters upthread : I think that the weakness, plotwise, of Frodo ditching Sam was almost made up by the fantastic "He's my pal now" face that Gollum did every time Frodo and Sam argued...
 
 
Brigade du jour
19:40 / 23.12.03
Thanks for the cover, Vincennes!

That Gollum thing reminds me of primary school, when 'friends' were a status symbol and cliques were paramount. Christ, I fucking hated all that, and those little scenes tapped into them beautifully.

Peter Jackson, eh? Not done bad for a bloke with the brain of a pigeon. Hmm ...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:22 / 24.12.03
Oh. My. God.

I have to see it again to even get an opinion. I was so busy drinking down the art direction and cinema of the whole thing, I barely paid attention to anything else. The lighting the fires on the mountains scene is utterly breathtaking. The armies massed on Pelennor fields, Minas Morgul, I absoultely loved every bloody frame of this movie.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:09 / 24.12.03
No time to write all my thoughts on this now, but let me just say the highlight of this film for me, the point at which I wanted to leap out of my seat and punch the air, has to be:

"I AM NO MAN!" - and the Witch-King takes one in the fucking face. You go, girl!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:08 / 24.12.03
So Frodo and Sam are lying on this rock with lava around them and their heads pressed together and I'm just waiting for Gandalf's head to pop up between them sporting a manic grin and raising his eyebrows Groucho style.

Absolutely wonderful, shockingly not too long at all and at least some of the gay hobbits didn't run off home to straightness at the end. This film made the trilogy for me. I thought it was a bit drawn out before but I've changed my mind. Very good work.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
18:07 / 24.12.03
This thread reads more and more like a school report.

Tryphena is headmistress.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
18:09 / 24.12.03
At a school with a Reputation.

A Reputation for, well, you know...
 
 
Seth
13:11 / 25.12.03
"I'd very much like to see my old ring one last time..."

"I'm sorry. I lost it."


Brilliance. As is Gandalf and Pippin's conversation about death as they wait for the army to overrun Minas Tirith. As is Sam realisaing that Frodo wants to let go of the ledge in Mount Doom...

This must be seen again and again.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
23:30 / 25.12.03
I thought it was all absolutely brilliant, and it blew my mind -

except: I found the cinematic interpretation of Eowyn's big scene to be a bit weak. She's supposed to show extraordinary strength, as great as (arguably greater than) any of the men of Rohan...but when the Witch King approaches her in the film, she quails, and a hobbit has to stab it in the back to give her the wherewithal to gather her wits and fight back?

I wouldn't normally complain about something being different from the book (I'm not one of those people, I understand that cinema and prose are not and can not be equal) but isn't the shivering girl in need of help a little...typical?

Otherwise: pure brilliance. I loved the ghost army. I loved the struggle with Gollum. I loved the battle at Peleanor. I almost dropped to my knees when everybody bowed before the hobbits.
 
 
Pants Payroll
00:01 / 26.12.03

Ray Fawkes: I wouldn't normally complain about something being different from the book (I'm not one of those people, I understand that cinema and prose are not and can not be equal) but isn't the shivering girl in need of help a little...typical?

But how was this scene in the movie different from that in the book?
 
 
invisible_al
08:22 / 26.12.03
Eowyn's big scene worked for me, she managed to knack the Witchkings mount by decapitating it! I think the quailing girl thing comes from the sheer evil prescence of the Witchking, remember in the very first battle scene where Sauron appears, everyone takes a step back even Elrond. And then when she stabs him in the face, 'I am no Man', perfect. It had me waving my arms about madly as well.
She finally gets to lay out the smackdown that I spent the whole Two Towers waiting for .
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:01 / 26.12.03
What perhaps doesn't come through in the movie is that the servants of the enemy have sheer naked terror working for them, when a Nazgul is nearby most people go into rabbits in the headlights due to the sheer aura of evil they give off, this is what draws Frodo to the gates of Minas Morgul, this is why the Witchking doesn't need to do much fighting on the Pelenor Fields (so the hands on approach of the Nazgul in this film is very different to the book), in the book (can't remember the film OTTOMH), Theoden's horse rears up when the Witchking approaches Theoden and crushes him without WK having to do anything, making Eowyn doubly brave for being able to master her terror.

And as for the idea that the Ents are due to Tolkien being disappointed with the 'Burnham wood approaching Dunsinane' part of Macbeth turning out to be men with twings in their hair, is Eowyn for all those that were disappointed that the prophecy that Macbeth would not be killed by any man turned out to be some loophole for a caesarian birth?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:22 / 26.12.03
As is Sam realisaing that Frodo wants to let go of the ledge in Mount Doom...

Ha! That's the moment you know they're screwing, a friend could never get away with ordering someone around like that and then he betttrraaayyysss him by going off with a girl. Bisexuals just weren't all that in old fashioned fantasy land. The mission's over, that evil ring has disintegrated in the fiery depths of Sauron's realm and Sam goes running off to a girl called Rosie. After all they've shared. Appalling.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
18:04 / 27.12.03
The Denethor/Faramir relationship wasn't handled particularly well, by not giving Denethor a palantir and by making pretty much the first thing he says be that he will not step aside for Aragorn makes him a bit of a one dimensional baddy

Yeah, I was a bit dissapointed at the way they did that. I remember Denethor having some quite creepy witchy aspects to his personality that made him interesting, but in the film he just seemed to be there to give Gandalf somebody to bitchslap.

I would have liked to see the scouring bit in the film, as I thought that was one of the main themes of the books, and the sequence where the battle-scarred hobbits don't take no shit from bullying orcs would have been cool, but I can see how it might have screwed with the film's pacing. I'm not suggesting they extend the films end sequence by another half an hour y'know.. but having said that, I don't think they got the pacing at the end right anyway so maybe it could have worked. No point complaining that it had too many false endings though, as I remember most of the 3rd book just being a series of false endings.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:00 / 28.12.03
I don't really get this 'false endings' thing, maybe people are getting it from the lack of Saruman in film three. In the book, once Aragorn's become King Frodo's desire is to return to Rivendell to see Bilbo. Aragorn and Gandalf's concern is Saruman, so they go via Rohan, so as to get rid of all the Rohan related characters, they find that Treebeard has let S & Wormtongue go, Legolas and Gimli leave, everyone else returns to Rivendell (passing S & W on the way), then the hobbits and Gandalf leave the Rivendell lot behind and go to Bree, where they learn there's evil doings in the Shire. So it's not really a series of endings, more a sequence of goodbye's to various characters.
 
 
ibis the being
14:14 / 29.12.03
I was entertained but IMO the movie was/is grotesquely overhyped. Good movie fare, yes. "Mind blowing," "a masterpiece," "brilliant," [all the other things I'd heard & still hear about it], not hardly. I love going to the movies and so I consider myself a pretty non-cynical, even childlike (when necessary) viewer at the theater, but I just couldn't ignore all the predictable moments and spoon-fed happiness. Eg: that - Witchking? - terribly fearsome demon, Sauron's "greatest weapon," I think Gandalf called him, stabbed in the back by a hobbit and in the face by a woman? - too easy & too feelgood, and I saw it coming. I didn't like knowing from the start that everything was going to work out fantastically & everyone was going to win every battle and no one we liked would die. Every subplot was that way, even Aragorn holding out for Arawen (sp, whatever). It's ok if everything works out great - as long as we're actually in suspense at some point, & I wasn't ever, books aside.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:41 / 30.12.03
Ray F., FWIW, in the book Merry does stab the Witch-King in the back (of his leg). In fact he suffers quite badly as a result of this and is not present at the battle on the field of Cormallen, as he is in the film. So it is canon...

I enjoyed it, but I was a bit fed up with dewy-eyed hobbits by the end. I was also disgusted that, when Aragorn and Arwen had their big snog, Elrond was seen to smirk. He should have looked on proudly but with a fond tear in his eye.

Apart from that, I thought it was jolly good.
 
 
Seth
18:06 / 30.12.03
He should have looked on proudly but with a fond tear in his eye.

That's what I thought Weaving was aiming for. He's just such a fucking weirdo though. It's very hard not to laugh at him, let alone try to understand what the fuck is going on in his head when he's acting.
 
  

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