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Saddam Hussein captured...

 
  

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diz
14:36 / 16.12.03
so Americans are stupid?

yes. i'm an American. i've lived here all my life, in various parts of the country, and i will gladly tell you: Americans are fucking stupid. perhaps not much stupider than anyone else, but fucking stupid nonetheless and way too stupid to have the degree of power they have.

not all of them, certainly. but, hey, about half of us don't even bother to vote, and half of those that do were in favor of the current jackass. the other half voted for a department store mannequin with the political sensibilities of a bag of dull tacks.

for years, i couldn't watch TV without getting inundated with OJ and Monica Lewinsky, not because someone imposed it on us from above but because people watched it in large numbers. we completely ignore soccer/football/whatever but our fastest growing sport is NASCAR, which basically involves rednecks turning left. the Left Behind books sell millions, and some godawfully high percentage of people in this country believe that a book written by a bunch of desert nomads several thousand years ago is literally true in all respects, even though it contradicts itself. what a lot of Americans don't believe in is global warming, even though we're doing a lot to cause it. nor do a lot of Americans believe in evolution. most of them have trouble finding many of the countries we've gone to war with recently on a freaking map.

i'd love to say "oh, it's this wacky Bush regime that's making us do this," but in reality, Bush is in many ways a symptom of the real problem: the overwhelming, bovine stupidity of huge portions of the American public. the corruption of our government is really just an opportunistic infection.

Yeah, whatever, here are some keywords: Germany, psychosis, World War One, World War Two. I can't be arsed.

yes, there were a hell of a lot of atrocities in 20th century Europe. however, they seemed to have learned something from them. that probably has something to do with the fact that they didn't sit out the first few years of both World Wars, and that both of said wars were fought in their towns and villages and fields and such.

it galls me that so many people have accused the European public of not having the stomach to make the hard call and understand that war and sacrifice are often necessary, when the US hasn't had a major war on its own soil in one-hundred-and-thirty-eight years, during which time almost everywhere else on Earth has been bombed, or invaded, or has gone through a revolution, a coup, a general collapse of some kind. nearly every country on Earth has a better firsthand understanding of the sacrifices of war than we do, which, i suspect, is why many of them are not so cavalier about the whole thing. it's different when the bombs aren't dropping "over there."
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:29 / 16.12.03
What difference will it really make who tries Saddam? It's going to be on TV. And how, given that the Iraqi people don't have a "real" government, are they served by an international court?

It will make a difference because everyone deserves to be treated justly even those people who are mass murderers, because it's too serious to be televised and we don't live in a circus, because no one should play to the cameras during a criminal trial and because Iraq is a giant mess. I doubt the Iraqis have the resources needed to properly try a dictator and the country should not be further destabilised by this. So many more reasons but it's home time so no time to write them.
 
 
Panic
15:45 / 16.12.03
...the overwhelming, bovine stupidity of huge portions of the American public. the corruption of our government is really just an opportunistic infection.

While I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly, where does the bovine stupidity come from?

My snarky gut response is "The American public school system." You know, the one that spit-polishes our history and inculcates our children with an unreasonable trust in "lawful" authority and "elected" government. The same government that administrates the public school system.

When school texts cover Gulf War I and II, will they include our government's dealings with Hussein? Will there be mention of taxpayer dollars going to supply arms that would later be used against, well, taxpayers?

The American people are in complete ignorance about their ignorance. At least I hope that's the case. The alternative is hopelessly depressing.
 
 
diz
16:24 / 16.12.03
While I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly, where does the bovine stupidity come from?

My snarky gut response is "The American public school system."


absolutely. however, the "American public school system" is far from monolithic, and the specifics vary widely, by state and by school district. i think you might be able to argue that most Americans have more influence with their local school boards than they do with Washington and more than Washington has with their local school boards. state governments also have more influence with the day-to-day of education, and they tend to mirror the overall cultural peculiarities and prejudices of their home states pretty closely.

i think it's safe to say that Americans more-or-less have the educational system they want. yes, they bitch about how shitty it is, but they don't want to spend any money on it and they tend to actively protest any real reforms unless they live in really progressive areas. of course, that's because they're products of that same system, and so its institutional character has imprinted itself on them pretty deeply.

it's a chicken and the egg sort of thing, really. we've got a lot of institutional inertia in this country. we like to think of ourselves as a young nation, and in many respects we are, but many of our institutions are positively ancient, and we as people have grown into their cracks and it's too comfortable to move. it's the sclerosis of an empire which is just passing its peak.
 
 
diz
16:42 / 16.12.03
I doubt the Iraqis have the resources needed to properly try a dictator and the country should not be further destabilised by this.

it's also worth mentioning that other countries have valid reasons for wanting to be part of the trial, most notably Iran. not only is it only fair to give them their crack at him, it's a good opportunity to help build bridges in the Middle East.

of course, the Bush junta doesn't want that. Iraqi Shi'ite support for an Islamic government freaks them out as it is. the last thing they want is for closer ties to develop between Iraq and Iran when those ties would end up strengthening Sistani's hand and might even lead to a major new Islamic power bloc emerging to challenge US hegemony in the region. the possibility of an alliance developing between Iran and an Islamic Republic of Iraq is enough to make Wolfowitz crap his sheets at night.

no, no, much better to have hand-picked US quislings running the trial, preferably while they're writing a nice US-friendly constitution.
 
 
rizla mission
18:42 / 16.12.03
most people who claim that they are not anti-American but anti-war, anti-Bush, whatever, are full of shit.

You know, you're absolutely right. All that stuff about criticising the aggressive, wrong-headed and frequently bizarre activities of the US state and the accompanying corruption and hypocrisy? That was all just a smoke screen to disguise the fact that we, by which I mean those who disagree with the policies of the Bush administration, HAAATTE America. Hate it, I tell you! We are totally jealous of it's cool deserts and thriving motion picture industry. Especially those of us who already live there.
 
 
Ganesh
19:01 / 16.12.03
Did we ever hear where "psychosis" fits in? Barbelith wouldn't be Barbelith without a crappily misapplied psychiatric term here and there, but I've a feeling the 'explanation' for this one's gonna take the arsebiscuit...
 
 
pachinko droog
19:07 / 16.12.03
Not that it makes much difference at this point. After the CIA is done interrogating him, I doubt he'll be lucid enough to say anything particularly damaging to Bush, Inc. wherever they try him.
 
 
Baz Auckland
19:25 / 16.12.03
Bush: "Saddam deserves The Ultimate Penalty"

One of the concerns of not having an international court (like Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and most other places) is the death penalty, and the differences between international standards and Iraqi law... I found an article explaining the concerns, but I can't remember where I read that yesterday... and being UN administered would allow Kuwait, Iran and others all to try him at once?
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:27 / 16.12.03
Did we ever hear where "psychosis" fits in?

I thought that I gave it a stab. Clearly there was some hyperbole involved in the use of that particular word, but I think the idea that you can get a national mood influenced by relatively recent historic events is plausible. A (usually right wing) argument I've heard is that the experience of two world wars has made europe pacifist, socialist and anti-american.

I'm not sure about the last one, but you could make a case for the first two. I suspect that is the sort of thing IJ was thinking.
 
 
Slim
19:52 / 16.12.03
I think it would be nice if most of the people in this thread would stop bitching and be thankful, just for one god damn minute, that a homicidal maniac like Saddam Hussein is behind bars. That's not a lot to ask, is it? I guess it is, as many in this thread have instead chosen to call Americans stupid, point out (once again) that Bush wasn't fairly elected or complain about a trial process that hasn't even been decided upon yet.

I find it annoying when people let their hatred of Bush cloud their judgements.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:02 / 16.12.03
I'm thankful that SH is behind bars. I think it could have been done without killing thousands of Iraqis, but I don't see that making that objection is in any way improper. Ends do not justify means.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:30 / 16.12.03
I find it annoying when people let their hatred of Bush cloud their judgements.

Oh god, not another one.

Actually, yes, I admit it, the entirety of my political opinion is based purely on my hatred of Bush - which is actually displacement of my resentment towards my father and my latent self-disgust at our communal guilt for the Holocaust. I also have a very small willy and thus resent the phallic symbols represented by the US military. Happy now?
 
 
diz
21:11 / 16.12.03
I think it would be nice if most of the people in this thread would stop bitching and be thankful, just for one god damn minute, that a homicidal maniac like Saddam Hussein is behind bars.

it's so not even remotely worth it. the process of unseating him has caused so much more trouble than he ever could have in his wildest dreams. Saddam was basically castrated after the Gulf War. he was a bastard, but he just simply didn't have the power to be a threat on a global scale. however, the US barrelling around like the proverbial bull in a china shop does have that kind of power, and has used it to make the world a hell of a lot more dangerous than it was a few years ago. the world hasn't been this deep in the shit at any point in my life, and i'm supposed to be grateful that the US oil mafia has put one of its puppets back in the box? fuck that.

if you gave me the choice of power-mad neocons at the helm of the greatest superpower the world has ever seen, or Saddam in control of a broken, poverty-stricken Third World country, i'm going with leaving Saddam in power, thank you very kindly.
 
 
Baz Auckland
22:01 / 16.12.03


"This image obtained courtesy of Hero Builders (HB) shows the new captured Saddam Hussein doll. The 12-inch Saddam action figure, with an Ace of Spades t-shirt retails for about 30 dollars."
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:26 / 16.12.03
Now, doesn't everybody feel better? I know I do.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:46 / 16.12.03
Thirty dollars? Bloody hell. You can get a Talking Ann Coulter doll for less than that. I know which I'd rather have.

I was going to buy some bin Laden bog roll when I first came here to take back, but it was too bloody expensive.
 
 
Slim
23:23 / 16.12.03
dizfactor,I'm not sure if choosing Saddam over Bush is wishful thinking or willful ignorance. Maybe there isn't a difference. Either way, I'm just going to ignore that comment. To consider it would be to delve into madness.

What I'm saying is this- most of the posts lacked any sort of exultation that Saddam is finally captured. Instead, things got twisted into another Bush-bashing thread where all his faults are brought up again. That's fine, I don't like Bush either but that doesn't take away from the fact that finally Saddam is done for. fridgemagnet can say, "oh god not another one," all he/she likes. The fact still remains that her dislike of Bush has made it so that he/she sounds pissed that Saddam was actually captured.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
00:07 / 17.12.03
This thread seems, to me, to be bringing out the thinnest that Barbelith has to offer. Not that I'm doing much to change the scenario. Cheerio.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
00:24 / 17.12.03
Hey, that didn't take long did it? :-)

To put Slim's mind at peace, I've had an idea...Any game pundits in this thread can elect to state their choice of one of three multi-valent choices regarding the following three statements about the capture of Saddam Hussein...which will hopefully bring us all neatly back On Topic!! Yay!

The choices are : Agree, Indifferent, Disagree

The statements :

1. In light of the fact of a US-lead invasion of Iraq, regardless of subjective opinion regarding the justification or morality or ethical implications thereof, it is without question A Good Thing that Saddam Hussein has been captured.

2. Since none of us here on the 'lith (agents provocateurs and agit prop double-agents notwithstanding) have any power to influence the proceedings one way or the other, it is of no consequence, in the final analysis, how, by whom, or where Saddam Hussein is tried for his heinous crimes against humanity.

3. The capture of Saddam Hussein in Iraq will do absolutely nothing, in real terms, to mitigate the problems facing, or improve the day-to-day living conditions in post-war Iraq.

Thats all for now.
 
 
sleazenation
08:54 / 17.12.03
A laudable goal money shot, but one doomed to failure unless one is allowed the space to underline their reasoning why they agree/disagree/whaterver with the statements - the reduction of arguements to soundbites and lack of explanation and evidence to back up statements from all sides has kind of collaspsed this into a shouting match rather than a debate.

But i think there is hope of getting this back on topic...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:21 / 17.12.03
Reasoning, evidence and explanations welcome, then...

I'll start

1. Indifferent. For now. Too soon to tell how the capture and subsequent exile deals/trial/media circus/whatever will contribute to the overall snafu of the entire scenario. Alive, dead, captured, in hiding, it really is only a matter of PR at this stage. From a PR point of view, of course, it's a Hook.

2. Agree. Sorry, got to go b4 explaining, back soon!
 
 
Bill Posters
11:45 / 18.12.03
dead busy here, so sorry if this has already been linked: Michael Moore's opinion of it all.
 
 
Baz Auckland
04:41 / 21.12.03
How odd...

Saddam was held by Kurdish forces, drugged and left for US troops

Saddam Hussein was captured by US troops only after he had been taken prisoner by Kurdish forces, drugged and abandoned ready for American soldiers to recover him, a British Sunday newspaper said.

Saddam came into the hands of the Kurdish Patriotic Front after being betrayed to the group by a member of the al-Jabour tribe, whose daughter had been raped by Saddam's son Uday, leading to a blood feud, reported the Sunday Express, which quoted an unnamed senior British military intelligence officer
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:32 / 05.11.06
Might as well bring this back up:

BBC: Saddam Hussein sentenced to death.
Guardian: Saddam sentenced to hang.
The Sun: Saddam to hang for murders.
CNN: Saddam Hussein sentenced to death by hanging.
"The Saddam Hussein era is in the past now, as was the era of Hitler and Mussolini," said Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, calling Hussein the worst ruler ever in Iraq. Worst ruler ever!
Fox News: Saddam Hussein Sentenced to Die for Crimes Against Humanity.

It's not a news site but the LGF reaction is as calm and balanced as you would expect.
 
 
w1rebaby
15:28 / 05.11.06
Well, my current prediction is that we'll be bombarded with lots of "obviously there's a long way still to go but this could mark a turning point in Iraq's history and the beginning of reconciliation the country can start to heal now blahdeblah".

We already seem to be getting the White House, John Reid et al telling us how the fact that an occupation government convicted the previous deposed ruler proves that it has a proper independent judiciary, and that this was an action by the Iraqi people, which seems a face-slappingly peculiar thing to say to me, but I suppose rests on the idea that THEY HAD AN ELECTION.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:46 / 05.11.06
UK FOREIGN SECRETARY MARGARET BECKETT

I welcome that Saddam Hussein and the other defendants have faced justice and have been held to account for their crimes.

Appalling crimes were committed by Saddam Hussein's regime. It is right that those accused of such crimes against the Iraqi people should face Iraqi justice.

Today's verdicts and sentences by the Iraqi Higher Tribunal comes at the end of a trail during which evidence has been offered and challenged in the full glare of media scrutiny.


Does anyone want to join me in contacting their MP to ask for Beckett to clarify her statement that she doesn't in fact support capital punishment? And maybe also that the UK government will press for Hussein's punishment be commuted to life imprisonment, as it's not official policy to support people being killed in other countries, unless it's due to our soldiers shooting them.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:01 / 05.11.06
But obviously HMG would never try to interfere with the internal affairs of a Sovereign Nation.
 
 
■
20:14 / 05.11.06
Now he's been found guilty, will those who supported him and supplied him with weapons also be tried? I'm wondering what this guy is doing these days. Maybe someone should track him down. I think there's a woman somewhere who needs to be interrogated, too. And apparently this fella supplied both sides of a war in the region.
Oh, I give up.

(ps. IMO, the death penalty is always wrong, even for scumbags like him)
 
 
Mistoffelees
21:08 / 05.11.06
I predict, Hussein will die of a "heart attack" or something similar alone in his cell a short while before the day of the execution. With tempers so high, nobody needs the images of his dead body with a noose around his neck in the media.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:03 / 05.11.06
Yeah, this whole "death penalty" thing shouldn't really be something the UK condones, should it, really?

I find this whole thing a bit bizarre- I'm not sure of the practicalities (like maybe it's chronological or something), and am aware that he was on trial for loads and loads of things, and the verdict was a foregone conclusion- but just for a few less "taking the piss" points, wouldn't it have made more sense to make the first big charge, and the one which gets him sentenced to hang, something he'd done after we were, well, supporting him?

(And yes, I am aware it's not the US Republicans who have him on trial... when I say it seems "bizarre" I don't mean "fishy", I just mean "weird").
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:28 / 06.11.06
Also weird is that, while he apppeals against this conviction, he is presumably at the same time going to be standing trial for the killing of 50,000 Kurds.

I'm opposed to the death penalty in general, although that moral absolute seems slightly farcical in the face of the sheer numbers here; it's almost as if my moral sense is being deformed in the face of the brutality. Except, of course, that's just what is meant to happen - which stops me thinking about the other dictators, and of course for a fair time Saddam himself, who have been supported and kept from trial by the interference of the US and its allies

Ultimately, though, it doesn't really matter what happens to Saddam now, except insofar as it affects the situation in Iraq. Will this execution really help to put the capstone on the attacks on Iraqi police and military forces and coalition civilians and soldiers? Personally, I'd say probably not. It's not as if any of the players were queuing up to restore him to power, were they?
 
 
Tom Coates
08:46 / 06.11.06
The thing that troubles me most about the hanging thing is that it seems inevitable that he'll become some kind of weird martyr for a whole bunch of people of unusual political backgrounds. But then I'm sort of unclear on whether there are any circumstances under which he might not become a martyr. There's something interesting about the push for media literacy coming as traditional authorities have been undermined. Martyrdom seems somehow more of an issue and more the thing that politicians have to deal with and alleviate than the threat itself.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:44 / 06.11.06
On the timing thing, according to Miranda Sissons, head of the
Iraq programme for the International Centre for Transitional Justice, The judgment was originally scheduled for several weeks ago.
 
 
bjacques
14:56 / 06.11.06
Most Sunnis, outside of members of Hussein's Tikriti tribe who lived large when he was in power, couldn't give a damn about him doing the diddly-backstep. Their bigger grievance is that it's one more bit of local business the occupying power meddled in.

Hussein's victims or their surviving relatives get some closure for his horror regime. How they'll get closure for what happened after the invasion is anyone's guess. The people (i.e., most ofo them) who worked hard, shut up and stayted away from Hussein's family and/or goons aren't especially grateful for Saddam being tried and executed.

On the home front, Bush & company politicized Iraq like they did everything else, so the verdict and death sentence don't gain them anything politically, and certainly not two days before the election. Bush & Co. also tried to ensure that 99.9% of American voters wouldn't be materially troubled by the Iraq war, so why should we care now?

It might have meant something 3 years ago. It might have meant something now if the carnage had stopped then. Now it's just a sideshow.
 
  

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