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When a Red Indian is not a Red Indian and other un-PC terminology.

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:35 / 07.11.03
I have always imagined the phrase to have been used in that way by some journalist or other who then faded in to obscurity leaving behind one legacy of his/her trashy writing that was then utilised by someone else. But I'm a fallen romantic with an overactive imagination. Why this drive to locate the source anyway?
 
 
grant
16:39 / 07.11.03
Tracking its mutations. An ecological inquiry.
 
 
Orange Julius is New
17:35 / 07.11.03
Well, I lurk a LOT, and I can't believe, of all places, that I am jumping in here, but I feel the need.

Being racist and not knowing it is a privelege of whiteness. White privelege allows a white person to stand outside of racism, to perpetrate but never to experience it. That a white woman has the privelege of saying, "Gee, did I say something un-PC?" and can then choose to (a) not worry about it, because how exactly does it negatively affect her if she does say something un-PC? or (b) change her behavior if she feels like it and can then choose how to as she sees fit, is a terrific example of the institutionalized racism in our society that allows white privelege to exist.

White privelege also allows a thread like this to talk about PC as though it also stands outside of racism/classicism.

Some of the women at Hipmama.com once upon a time came up with an anti-racism FAQ that covered these topics quite nicely. Rather that rephrase, I will simply regurgitate:


  • Conservatives have corrupted the phrase "politically correct" as a dismissive response to suggestions that the existing culture of white power and privilege needs critical examination.

  • [T]he parental is political. In fact, it's a form of white privilege to want to protect white children from the ugly realities of racism when children of color don't have that luxury. The ability to claim a position of "ignorance" when it comes to the struggles of poeple of color against racism is part of the power inherent in racism. As [parents], we have a responsibility to care about everyone's children, not just our own. As Carribean educator, storyteller and poet Opal Palmer Adisa writes, "I want Anglo mothers to teach their children not to be racist so I don't have to constantly do emergency surgery on my child."

  • We're used to thinking of the word "racist" in connection with active hatred. That allows us to assume that so long as we're not deliberately hurting anybody, we're not racist ourselves. But racism isn't just about obvious bigotry - it's also about unconscious assumptions, social preferences, norms and privileges. Some people call this "institutionalized racism" because it shows up in everything from laws to birth experiences to shopping malls.

  • Remember, racism and white privilege are so entrenched that every single white person is implicated, whether or not she is actively and overtly racist. The pain of recognizing the inescapability of racism is part of the cost of racism to white people. Other personal costs include ignorance, guilt, fear, and/or discomfort around people of color who could otherwise be colleagues, lovers, or friends. Also, to the detriment of society in general, there are huge societal costs, such as the diminishment of the world's "brain trust" by devaluing or even preventing the contributions of people of color. As well, systematic inequalities caused by racism has led to a trend of the dominant culture to criminalize POC instead of addressing the social ills that plague our society in its entirety. Usually we think of racism as a problem for POC, but as the unwilling beneficiaries of racism, PWOC too are affected by it: being forced to admit this can be unpleasant and unsettling. But without recognizing that it affects everybody, whites will continue to see racism as "someone else's problem."

  • A white anti-racist ally is someone who accepts her own role as a member of the racist social structure and, in the face of that knowledge, works to challenge the assumptions that come along with her white privilege. She recognizes that white people must learn to identify and confront racism when they encounter it, and then open up dialogue with other whites in order for progress to be made against racism.


Calling a native American a "red Indian" was racist, pure and simple, not because of the terminology but because of the inherent privelege of the person who spoke the words. White people have a responsibility to work consciously against institutionalized racism and white privelege, and yes that begins with discussing these things, at length, with our children. My four-year-old can't read or write, but he already knows what racism and white privelege are, and this is partly because we live in a mixed household--these topics are present for us every day.

It doesn't mean she's a bad person, but it does mean that she has a responsibilty to unlearn her behavior and teach her child about these issues also. Unconscious racism is still racism. It is still an expression of the current racist power structure and does not actively work to change it.

Devaluing the subject of racial slurs by boiling it all down to the question, "What is PC?" is racist. It makes the problem all about semantics instead of about human experience, and in the end, racism is about real people. IMHO, it seems like a deconstruction of the term "PC" belongs in another thread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:32 / 08.11.03
Well, possibly so. Although the presence of "Political Correctness" as a key concept in the title and the course of this thread suggests that it is quite important, and your FAQ contains the same assumptions that I identified as well-meanining but intellectually incurious earlier.

However, to go back into white parenting - it does strike me as a very germaine point that one has the freedomn to say "non-PC" where one might otherwise say "racist" or "sexist". But then our champions against PC would argue that such behaviour is not racist or sexist to start with.

So, do we want to focus back on the duties of parenting (which, lest we forget, is not mentioned in the title or the topic abstract), and pile back on Olulabelle?
 
 
Mr Tricks
00:03 / 15.11.03
Wow... between this and the thred on "whiteness" I just haven't had much sleep lately...

Fist I must say BRAVO to Orange Julius is New for reeling this thread back in, a bit, from the convienientness of abstract discourse on "PC."

And great applause to HunterWolf for his fortitude.

and of course to Olulabelle for getting this discourse started...

having spent the past 2 days reading these posts I thought I would have a lenghty diatribe to type up here... Not sure what I can now offer so in no Particular order:

Cowboys and Indians:
Would letting a child play Troops and Towel Heads be appropiate? At least it's a bit more timely. The Game is insidious in that it not only fosters antagonism with "the other" the game's inherant privilage surfaces if one considers anyone can be a Cowboy or Cowgirl while one would have to be born an indian or adopted by indians. An indian is just not a Valid career choice IMO.
I'm not a parent but I suppose I would have to discourage this sort of role-play or at least redirect it toward Cops & Robbers.

RED:
In all my experiences red associated in "Indian" or "1st Nations People" or "Amerindians" is prettymuch not a good thing. The Language bit that Trix linked to was news to me. Still, rule of thumb:
Red + Indian = ignorant or racist.

It's a testament to the effectiveness of the U.S. government's policy of ethnic cleansing, that the offensivness of "Red" in assocation with America's 1st nations is still debateable. Particularly outside of the Americas but easily with-in the U.S. borders; as illustrated by:

  1. Washington Red-skins
  2. American spirit cigerette (imagine if they where Black Sambo Cigars)
  3. and "Squaw Peak" mountain in Phoenix Arizona. (imagine Black Ho' mountin')

just to name a few...

Sure there's a film Genre that made use of the term and in time might we see them go the way of the minstral shows, that guy who sang Ma-mee... in black face and Buckwheat of the Little rascles.

even IF the "red-indian" concept was "created" as a fiction, it's still a fiction that was specificly designed to encompass all the worse stereo types of a real culture. Does anyone remember the old Bugs bunny cartoons where he "fought" JAPS? or was hunted by Black Sambo with a spear? they're extremely hard to find now. I digress.

Tryphena Sparks, are you argueing from a point of devil's advocate here? Cause I think I noticed some contridictions in the arguement you've presented...
"it appears to have been outlined here that Red Indian has never really been a term applied to Native Americans just fictional constructs so why can't we simply leave it at that for small children?"
" 'Red Indian' for example would never have existed without the victory of the invaders. The plight of the Red Indians is highlighted today by 1)the events of the second world war and 2)the end of the black slave trade. Thus they may suddenly reclaim an offensive word but that alone does not automatically make that word out of bounds."

I'm not exactly sure what your stance is.

You also mentioned the folly in one person attempting to speak for hir culture on a whole. I can see that. However, wouldn't said person be much closer to being qualified to do so in the absence of anyone else?

Playing at Indian:
Living in England would certainly make it difficult for a child to be exposed to "the real thing." So is playing make believe okay? That's tricky.
IF I where a parent and came accross this situation I'd bring my kid to the next Pow Wow or Native gathering. Allow him to develop an interest based on real experience rather than hand-me-down stereotypes.

Not all indians wear feathers in their hair... and on a whole there's a cultural context to it. Why not take th opportunity to let the child be exposed to such a context? A trip to the U.S. of course isn't quite realistic.

On another note, every culture has some tribal roots. Why not let your child play Celt (or Viking as Hunterwolf suggested)?

Geeeze i think I've totally missed my train of thought... I'll come back after the weekend. Hope i didn't offend anyone . . . kudos for a stimulating discourse...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:20 / 15.11.03
are you argueing from a point of devil's advocate here?

Damn you Mr. Tricks, you caught me! To be honest I only partly believe what I've been saying in this thread. The problem being that my argument centred absolutely around the idea of explaining notions to a small kid and the way that we treat information. I really turned in to devil's advocate as I took the argument further.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:15 / 16.11.03
Could you explain exactly what you mean by "convenientness", Mr. Tricks? I'm afraid I don't understand.

For reference, I am starting a thread on the correct raising of children, in order to reduce confusion.
 
 
Quantum
10:57 / 17.11.03
"Being racist and not knowing it is a privelege of whiteness" (Orange Julius is New)
...in our culture dominated by white people. Robert Mugabe is racist, yet not white. Being racist and not knowing it is a privelege of the majority/the group in power. Conflating the group in powers with Whites is dangerously close to racism.
Great post though, why do you only lurk?

At a slight tangent, racist and non-PC language and slurs evolve faster than we could prohibit their use, so while it's great that we've decided 'Red Indian' is inappropriate and taboo, in the meantime dozens of new offensive expressions have sprung up in the school playgrounds and streets.

Take 'Joey' as an example. Years ago (in the UK) Blue Peter ran an appeal for disabled children, and to personalise it chose a specific little boy with MS to publicise called Joey, to show the kids that disabled people were just like them but with more difficult problems. They thought understanding would foster acceptance.

What happened? 'Joey' became playground slang for people with disabilities, just as offensive as 'Spastic' (which also started life as an inoffensive descriptor). The problem is not the language but the attitude behind it.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:34 / 17.11.03
Yeah... kids can be vicious...

Could you explain exactly what you mean by "convenientness", Mr. Tricks? I'm afraid I don't understand.

I'll probably get in trouble for that bit of off the cuff typing...It seems to me that amidst a potentially heated discussion on "race" or "bigotry" or "cultural imperialism/ignorance," the discussion's sudden turn towards the persuit of the origin of "P.C." seemed like a convenient release valve. A sort of (maybe unconscious, probably unintentional)change of subject to something seemingly easier to talk about.

This doesn't invalidate that subject's persuit but, to me, that tanget seems to pull away from the potential of uncovering some possibly intrenched ideas about race and racism. So; "convient" in that it seems easier to discuss the origins of the phrase "Politicly-correct" than excavating assumptions and or more personal ideas one may have about "race."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:40 / 17.11.03
Ah, so you assumed that, because you were more interested in and involved with a particular thread of the discussion, one involving plenty of handy personal conflicts and recriminations rather than heated argument, you assumed that another aspect, and on entirely on-topic, was somehow less "serious" or less "important". So, people who do not want to disucss things in a way you find interesting are now somehow cowardly. Thankyou. The shrews are now sad.

Quantum: Actually, interestingly, we can see a mutation here in aetiology as well as etymology. Joey Deacon was in, I think, his 50s or so when he appeared on Blue Peter, and suffered from cerebral palsy, not MS. You appear to have instinctively made the story *more* heartrending and a more cutting demonstration of the cruelty and insensitivity of children. One might argue instead that Blue Peter fatally misjudged its audience, and the adoption of "Joey" as a description of maladroitness was a result of this.

Certainly, children can be cruel, and one might presumably hope that some of this cruelty results from ignorance and may therefore be removable. On the other hand, it is also possible that a degree of cruelty is perfectly necessary as part of growing up and working out how peer groups and interpersonal interactions work (this is mere supposition - one could perhaps change every child's stimulus response in a single shot and raise an entire generation differently.

However, "Joey" also comnes back to the Red Indian question, rather conveniently. Olulabelle and her epigone represent themselves as unlikely to meet a Native American. By the same token, I have no memory of the term "Joey" ever being used to address a disabled person, possibly because the opportunity simply never arose, but not necessarily only because of that.

"Spastic" seems to me a very different concept; the idea of an "inoffensive descriptor" is a slightly awkward one. "Leper" was at one point not generally deemed inoffensive, but is now not the term generally chosen by persons suffering from leprosy. Possibly they were never wild about it. I suspect "spastic" has its roots in a well-meaning but pathologising Victorian philanthropy rather than a term grown out of a community. Children calling each other "spastics" is certainly a factor (and note that the transformation of the Spastics Society to Scope gave rise immediately to the schoolyard improvisation "scoper"), but it seems that the relationship of cart and horse has not really become clear.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:20 / 17.11.03
Ah, so you assumed that, because you were more interested in and involved with a particular thread of the discussion, one involving plenty of handy personal conflicts and recriminations rather than heated argument, you assumed that another aspect, and on entirely on-topic, was somehow less "serious" or less "important". So, people who do not want to disucss things in a way you find interesting are now somehow cowardly. Thankyou. The shrews are now sad.

Make all the leaps you like haus . . .
weither or not the shift in discourse was "on topic" or not mattered little to me. Is that the second time you brought it up? Is it a moderator thing? Anyway, I don't see anything in the topic abstract about the origins of the phrase "Politically Correct," might that be fuel for a thred on its own?

So, do you believe the origins of the phrase "Politically Correct" to be equally important to examining racial assumptions? Far be it from me to attempt changing your mind on such a stance. After two pages of discourse, the dialogue shift read as a welcomed relief. Thus I applauded Orange Julius is New for a well stated and timed post.

Now, if'n ya ain't the cowardly type, loik you sez, I'll be a'waitn' for ya in the skool yard 'round three o'clock.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:25 / 17.11.03

So, do you believe the origins of the phrase "Politically Correct" to be equally important to examining racial assumptions?


I find it pretty important to examining "un-PC terminology", yes. It's a moderator thing. The FAQs will tell you more. Since your reply makes no mention of convenience, I'll assume that is a false trail.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:15 / 17.11.03
It's well after 3 o'clock . . . I'll assume you where following that false trail when we shoulda' been tusslin' in the school yard.

So, do you believe the origins of the phrase "Politically Correct" to be equally important to examining racial assumptions?

I find it pretty important to examining "un-PC terminology",


Well there you go . . .
It seems to me, that the examination of "un-PC terminology" IS more convientent than the examination of hand-me-down racial assumptions. no more, no less.
 
 
Quantum
15:19 / 18.11.03
interestingly, we can see a mutation here in aetiology as well as etymology. Joey Deacon was in, I think, his 50s.. Haus
..you can also see my appalling memory and confident use of second hand information
Spas**c was not initially offensive because it was descriptive, the disease makes you spasm. I think if SCOPE changed their name to 'The kickass ninja club' then 'kickass ninja' would immediately be adopted as an insult. As I say, it's the attitude, the language is a symptom.

I have no memory of the term "Joey" ever being used to address a disabled person it was only ever used as an insult to able bodied kids AFAIK, kids don't tease people with palsy because they either don't feel they need to (a sympathy reaction) or they're scared and weirded out by disabilities. Just another example of people seeing the disability and not the person, in the same way people see the skin colour and not the person.

It's got to be important to consider the concept of PC when considering racism because it's so closely related. I'm not saying discussing the etymology of phrases is as important as discussing racist behaviour (IMHO it isn't) but in a thread specifically about PC terminology it's surely more relevant than discussing racism in general (which there are plenty of threads about).
Put it this way, if threads weren't pretty specific they'd all be the same- I find a thread on racist language to be more useful than one on racism in general, it's like discussing epistomology rather than philosophy.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:26 / 18.11.03
To echo the point raised much earlier in this thread, it is indeed a testament to the neglected voice of American Indians that a team is still allowed to call themselves the "Washington Redskins." Indian people don't have strong political lobbies, powerful entertainment celebrities to draw awareness to their culture and/or prominent, mainstream cultural institutions to complain about such things like other minorities have.

People are still complaining about the Redskins' name to this day, but the distinction is that no one in the mainstream really pays attention to them. I see about 1 article every 3 years on CNN about this issue, but although some college and high school teams have changed their names because the former names were racist Indian stereotypes, the Redskins controversy still fails to generate enough heat and attention to make the establishment take action. When I bring this up to friends and relatives I'm for the most part told "Awww, that's too PC, relax, it's just a name."

Yet when I point out: Would you be allowed to call a professional football team the "Brooklyn Brownskins", the "New York Spics", the "New Jersey Darkies" or the "San Francisco Yellowskins"? No. after I make this point, or when I connect the grinning Indian caricature on the Cleveland Indians hat to the grinning thick-lipped buck-toothed "Black Sambo" caricature, everyone pretty much starts to agree with me and says "Wow, I never thought about it that way, you're right, that IS racist!" That pretty much sums it up to me.

Incidentally, the Cleveland Indians were named to honor a Penobscott Indian who was the first very successful major league Native American player. So that one is a grey area - sure, the team was named in honor of the first Indian player in the major leagues, but the team's identity is now about the racist "Tomahawk chop" (by the way, going up to an Indian person and doing the 'whoop whoop' thing with hand-to-mouth or saying "How!" is tantamount to calling a black person "Nigger" or saying "Yes, sir, mass'a" to a black person) and the grinning Indian caricature, fans wear feathers & war paint to games, etc.

Indian headdresses, used for sacred ceremonial or tribe leaders, are also often lampooned in this fashion. One friend of mine saw a picture of a monkey with an Indian headdress on, and photoshopped a version of the monkey wearing the Pope's hat. The first didn't offend, the second did, for the most part. Why?

Or the somewhat well known "Red Man" chewing tobacco, with a picture of an Indian on the front. My friend also whipped up a photoshopped version of the "Black Man" tobacco with a picture of a black person on the front. The first is accepted in society, the second would never in a million years be accepted. Why?

The whole issue of the word "Squaw" is often debated in Indian circles, and isn't entirely agreed upon among the American Indian community itself. Squaw might mean "twat", "clit", "vagina" or "pussy" to many, but to some other Indian people it basically means "female" in the less-vulgar sense. Did the word originally mean "woman/female" but then became more associated with the more vulgar/sexual connotation through Indian slang and a bunch of dirty old Indian men through the generations? So this one is debated among the Indian community to this day.

>> American spirit cigarettes (imagine if they where Black Sambo Cigars)

American Spirit is probably the least offensive of all these - the name simply is "American Spirit", not "Red Indian Cigarettes", so the black sambo thing really isn't analagous here. "American Spirit" actually has a tone of pride and nice cultural feel to it, I think. Sure, there's a picture of an Indian in ceremonial gear on it - that's probably the most iffy part of it. But the question becomes is it bad to EVER show an Indian in ceremonial gear on a product? Probably, since we don't see Aunt Jemima on her syrup anymore - do we? (I think they re-did Aunt J's look and clothes a few years back to make her look less Civil War-slave) But we do see Uncle Ben on rice, I think. But I think American Spirit is actually made by Indian companies, if memory serves.

Is Uncle Ben necessarily bad? I don't know. That's a grey area. What's necessarily wrong with a similiar, paternal, friendly looking, white-haired black man? Or is the problem that we don't really see a human individual face on most food products? Then again, what about Jimmy Dean sausages, which show smiling white guy Jimmy Dean? If you can show a white guy on food products, why not a black guy if it's not a racist portrayal?

Also, let me second the notion that while it may be intellectually interesting to examine the term "PC", the real important thing in considering whether something is racist or prejudiced is not how it conforms to someone technical definition of PC (and there seem to be many different and even contradictory definitions of PC), but whether it is common-sense racist/offensively stereotypical or not.

We can also consider other stereotypes that may be non-offensive. For example, I don't think THE SOPRANOS is offensive. It's not saying all Italians are mafiosos. It's a show about the mafia. Just because a writer puts a character in his play who's black and a criminal, for example, doesn't mean the writer is saying all blacks are criminals. It depends on whether the character is a cliche or a well-drawn, human character, the quality and integrity of the overall story, etc.

Consider the character of Speedy Gonzalez. Funny? I would say hell yes. Offensive and stereotypical? Or just good fun, poking fun at stereotypes?
 
 
grant
15:53 / 18.11.03
I'm not sure Speedy Gonzalez *is* poking fun of stereotypes, is he? I suppose he's got a funny accent, and that could be a stereotype....

The PC origins thing I wasn't thinking of as being more convenient, but at the time, more fun. Make of "more fun" what you will. It was starting to feel almost off-topic, though -- not there yet, but like it was going to get there very soon.

On football:

There are frequent complaints about the FSU Seminole mascot, who starts each football season in full (Lakota) headdress, riding a (Plains Nations) horse onto the field plunging a (Lakota/imaginary Injun)spear into the 50 yard line. He's named for a real chief of the Seminoles (a Creek, actually, but Seminole Nation is tricky like that), who was captured under a false flag of truce and died in prison.

Fake Seminole Chief Osceola:




Real Seminole Chief Osceola:



The interesting thing is that the fake Osceola's costume was designed in consultation with the Seminole Nation, if this report is to be believed. So it's a bit vexed. In return for the use of the image, they provide a scholarship for Seminole kids, or so it seems.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:08 / 18.11.03
American Spirit is probably the least offensive of all these - the name simply is "American Spirit", not "Red Indian Cigarettes", so the black sambo thing really isn't analagous here. "American Spirit" actually has a tone of pride and nice cultural feel to it, I think. Sure, there's a picture of an Indian in ceremonial gear on it - that's probably the most iffy part of it. But the question becomes is it bad to EVER show an Indian in ceremonial gear on a product?

Out here in the Bay Area of California, there's a growing movement against American Spirit brand ciggerettes, being lead by some local tribes. I find this rather Ironic as they have become the brand of choice amongst the more Liberal/progressive neo-hippie type smokers. The Bill boards and sickers I see Lambast the "selling of the Native American Image." The point, I suspect, is that these images are of a people's culture and here they are being commodified to sell a product that offers no benefit to the people of that culture. Yes I agree this is not as extreme an issue as the "redskins" one, but there still seems to be some valid arguements presented.

Does this verge on Intellectual property issues?
Or cultural Imperialism?

So... I met the guy who started That Ciggerette company YEARS ago... and struck me as much more of an new-age-anglo-wannabe-tribal-yuppie than he struck me as a 1st Nations person... but hey, image and all could be decieving.

Speaking of THE SOPRANOS, I was just watching the series last night. More than one episode presented the debate about mafia vs. Italian images and assumptions by a general public in (IMO) an effective way.

I wonder if there could ever be a similar show set in an Indian Casino?
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:31 / 18.11.03
Consider the character of Speedy Gonzalez. Funny? I would say hell yes. Offensive and stereotypical? Or just good fun, poking fun at stereotypes?

Now I'm not Mexican, but as a kid watching this mouse was pretty fun. Older now, I wonder if his "speed" was some sort of comment on crossing the border... I'dunno...

Interestingly, the Cartoon network thought this cartoon charactor would be consider offensive and Stopped airing the cartoons. Ironicly there seems to be a sort of reverse reaction on the topic. So the debate about this particular caracture continues:
  • "Any time a character is given an ethnic accent only for comedic value, this trivializes and diminishes that person and culture. This is done in an effort to make the dominant culture -- those inspired to laugh --feel superior. This type of subliminal institutional racism viscerally affects our children and degrades Latinos as people of honor and respect."
  • Los Angeles psychologist Robert Butterworth, (and no, his mom is not the Mrs. Butterworth, the maple syrup bottle lady) says, "These stereotypes are ingrained when we’re young. and what do kids watch? Cartoons. I know that adults are saying 'Oh God, it's just Speedy Gonzalez' but these are impressions that are put in very early and hard to pull out. I’m the last person to hold for political correctness, but kids absorb this thing on a preconscious level."


who'd have thought . . .?
 
 
grant
16:55 / 18.11.03
By the way, on the brand names, a slam poet friend of mine wrote a piece called "Cereal Aisle Racist" that points out, among other things, that the black brand figures don't get last names. They're all uncles and aunts, if they have names at all.

His last verse has the Cream Of Wheat guy changing his name to Wheat-X.

(Technically, as I've pointed out unfunnily to him, the Cream of Wheat guy's name is Rastus. But nobody knows that anymore - he might as well be Wheat-X.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:15 / 18.11.03
(and there seem to be many different and even contradictory definitions of PC)

No, really? I think you're kind of misisng the point there, Hunterwolf. That isn't why we shouldn't be talking about it. If anything, it's why we should.

In short. I keep noticing that people are assuming that what they want to talk about is, essentially, more important, and that anyone who does not want to talk about what they want to talk about is thus attempting to duck the issue. this is not polite, and it's not a level of argument worth having. Sorry about that, but there we go. The word "semantics" is always a bit of a weasel word here; it is very rarely used in the correct sense, but rather (as it was here) as a term describing "stuff I do not want to talk about, which i will imply is somehow just about *words*, rather than the *real* stuff I am typing about".

Well, newsflash. You see those things that you are using? Them's words.

And, by the same token, I am a touch bewildered that people are struggling to see these two antithesised elements as not part of a single discourse. The use of "red Indian" was described as "not PC". Not wrong or racist or even insensitive, but not PC. PC is presented as a never-defined but universally acceptable way for behaviour to be excused, by suggesting that the bar it is not clearing is an artificial imposition according to set of rules that are never defined but clearly unreasonable. The term is used as a buffer zone for what might otherwise have been criticised as racist or otherwise unacceptable.

Am I even having to *type* this?
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:05 / 18.11.03
Am I even having to *type* this?

not really . . . but how about telling "us" what we should be talking about.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:31 / 18.11.03
That isn't really how it works, Mr Tricks. You should be talking about something interesting, useful and germaine. Right now you seem to be more interested in trying to start arguments and bringing it down to personalities to excuse a lack of enthusiasm for the effort of thinking about the issues. Which is fine, but we have a whole big Conversation forum for that.

I think I just raised an issue. If you'd like to talk about that, go for it. If you'd like to talk about something else, as long as that something else has some relevance to the topic, please do.
 
 
FinderWolf
22:09 / 18.11.03
>> The use of "red Indian" was described as "not PC". Not wrong or racist or even insensitive, but not PC.

Um, I sure as hell didn't say it wasn't wrong, racist or insensitive as opposed to purely "not PC." Your saying this discussion has been solely about what's "PC" as opposed to what's common sense racist or prejudice or insensitive makes me think you haven't really read the thread, or read it carefully.

It seems to me there's been a lot of thoughtful discourse and polite debate on this thread about the morality, racism and prejudice of the term "Red Indian" as well as other sensitive and debated issues. Of course, there has also been valuable and insightful discussion of the term PC, its origins and its various meanings here. All these topics have value here. But I would venture to say it's not accurate that this was always about "PC" intrinsically and nothing else.

I think many in this thread were pointing out that "Red Indian" was indeed wrong, racist, and insensitive. Re-read the thread and you'll see the black and white evidence of this with this stuff that you so graciously inform me is known as "words." I may have mentioned PC but in my belief, PC has just become synonymous with "accepted by most in society as being not cool for reasons of racism, prejudice or insensitivity".

But it seems to mean any common sense application (which is what I feel the term should be about - common sense) of "PC" is firstmost about moral, prejudice and racism and sensitivity issues and secondly about the term "PC" itself. That's just my opinion. Having my opinion doesn't mean you have the right to tell me or anyone else that it's "not an argument worth having" and that we'd better say something you consider worthy of acknowledgment as having "relevance" to what you feel is the issue at hand.

I'm not saying that examining the origins and ramifications of the term "PC" has no value - far from it. I'm just saying I see it as almost two separate but obviously related issues - is something racist/prejudice and what is "PC" at the given moment in our society? Thankfully, for the most part, I would argue that "PC" is less about some wacked out, by the book ideology and more a synonym (in western society 2003, at least) for "racist/prejudice/not cool in this day and age because of sensitivity issues." And pretty much everything that is considered "not PC" by most is also common sense-considered racist, exclusionary, judgmental, insensitive, etc.

So I'm saying that it's pretty much a good thing that "PC" has, in my perception of society, become synonymous with "racist, prejudice and insensitive", whatever its origins and original intent. What matters is how it's being used now and what it means now. Not that the original intent and application has no value in terms of studying it and learning from it - I'm just more interested in what does it mean today since we're in .... today. And will it evolve?

And incidentally, saying people who have differing opinions or priorities from your agenda is "not polite" (as well as writing "Do I even have to *type* this??!" like you're talking to stupid naive children) can really come off as very condescending. So it's no wonder some here might respond to you as feeling they've been condescended to.
 
 
FinderWolf
22:18 / 18.11.03
And thanks for the Seminole and the Speedy Gonzalez postings -- I think those are some of the grey areas we're discussing here. If the Seminole outfit was created to honor Indians but has sort of deteriorated into a caricature - even if the outfit was made with the consultation and approval of actual Seminole people - what then? What about the idea that proceeds from the games go to social work/aid for Seminole tribes?

And the Speedy thing is a very relevant thing to comedy -- comedy will always have stock characters and stereotypes. I go back and forth on Speedy - I'm not really sure if I feel he's offensive or not. There's Foghorn Leghorn, who's the epitome of a white, brash, loudmouthed, know-it-all arrogant Southerner. Is it OK to have him around and laugh at Foghorn because it's a satire of a white 'majority' character, but not OK to have Speedy cause he's a minority? As I recall, Speedy was a very smart, tricky, clever character, often laughing at the stupidity of the gringos he encountered. He had class, smarts, style. So is he all bad, accent or no? The point about ridiculing people with non-American accents by that psychologist is valid too, though....

And very interesting noting about the black brand name figures. Although I always thought "Jemima" was her last name. But Jimmy Dean is really the only white guy brand name food person I know, aside from the Col. of KFC -- and they're both southerners. Hmmmm.....
 
 
at the scarwash
02:53 / 19.11.03
Just wanted to point out concerning Uncle Ben vs. Jimmy Dean: "Uncle" was a common term used for the most senior male house slaves by the master's children. The Uncle Remus stories are stories that could have been told by a kindly ole Steppin Fetchitt to his white charges. I think that there is definitely an at-least subterranean racism in the branding of Uncle Ben. As for Jimmy Dean, well the guy's name was Jimmy Dean. Col. Sanders was never a colonel in any non poultry-related army, but he was a real guy. Uncle Ben was a marketing tool.
 
 
Olulabelle
09:58 / 19.11.03
For the record, I started this thread to find out whether something I had said was offensive. I used the term un-PC for selfish reasons I suppose - I didn't particulary want to brand myself as racist because I don't think I am. Worryingly though, from some of the comments in this thread, it seems people think I am.

Personally, I think it appears I may be naive, possibly stupid, and some would say unworldly, but I'm not racist. As I have said before, I just didn't know it was a racist term. Whether or not someone knows or not is quite a critical point I think, I don't see how you can call someone racist if they use a term that they were unaware was offensive. You can say they used a racist word but you can't say that they themselves are racist. Someone can only be racist if they are deliberately using the term in order to offend, or to degrade.

A lack of knowledge does not a racist make.

Anyway, that's why I used the term 'un-PC', so I think because of that it is very important to be discussing both the implications of un-PC words but also the term 'PC' in itself. Defining the term helps us to define the implications of using words which come under the umbrella of that term.

Because of the fact that I was talking to my child when I used the particular term in question, this thread has also touched on parenting, and what is and isn't good parenting. This wasn't necessarily my main reason for starting the thread, but it is important in some ways to the debate. However, I agree with Haus that it is better left to another thread all of its very own, and I am glad that he has started it.

This isn't a thread strictly about racism either, since the subject was 'what I said' and I don't think I am racist. Racism is covered within the discussion because the term I used is considered racist, so of course in order to debate things properly we will at some point discuss what is and isn't racist. But by definition the thread is also directed towards PC and un-PC terminology and the implications of those words being used.

So, you see, in some ways you are all correct!

I hope that clears things up.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:24 / 19.11.03
Thanks for your post, olula - certainly, I believe no one here ever thought or insuinuated that you're "racist" - and I applaud your courage in asking the questions and sparking this discussion. I think the thread has been about racism not in the sense of "is olulabelle racist"?, certainly, but in the sense of raising thoughtful, valid questions of what in this day and age is considered a not-cool by reasons of racism, prejudice or insensitivity and what terms are accepted for use. I would do the same thing olula did if I had a question about a term that I wasn't sure was acceptable or not: ask my friends, ask this board, ask for other's perspective and opinions.

Well Enough Alone, thanks for the very on-the-spot observations about Uncle Ben (which I think would probably correlate to "Aunt Jemima", the whole kindly black Uncle/Aunt figure thing).

I also think it's perfect that Haus started another thread on the definition and nature of "PC," which, as I said, is a perfectly valid and interesting discussion topic.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:50 / 19.11.03
Someone can only be racist if they are deliberately using the term in order to offend, or to degrade.

A lack of knowledge does not a racist make.


On the contrary. For white people in the USA, UK, Australia and many other countries, racism is not something one has to actively adopt and strive to attain. It is something one is born and raised into, akin to the concept of original sin, and which it is the duty of all thinking and compassionate people to try and divest ourselves of. Ceasing to use racist terminology is by no means the only or indeed most effective way to do this, but it's a start.

I still think nobody said it better than alas: "There's no such thing as being a "passive" anti-racist.", and other equally accurate statements in that thread. These are not pleasant truths, which is probably why the prevailing opinion on Barbelith and elsewhere is that if we are all nice, well-meaning liberals then it is horribly unfair for either ourselves or our behaviour to be labeled 'racist'.
 
 
Chubby P
15:25 / 19.11.03
I confess I haven't read the entire thread properly but I once referred to "Native American Indians" in a conversation with my girlfriend. She looked at me aghast and told me I couldn't say that.

Native was offensive because it implied savagery.

Indian was offensive because its a term Europeans had given them.

I was told they should be referred to as "Indiginous Peoples". My response was that surely they would rather be more uniquely defined than lumped together with the "Indiginous Peoples" of the rest of the world. To which I was told they should be called "The Indiginous Peoples of North America". An extremely long winded and overly PC term in my opinion.

So what is regarded as the PC term for the "The Indiginous Peoples of North America"?

I also keep accidently saying Eskimo instead of Inuit and get frowns for that too. I grew up with the term Eskimo. Its a hard one to break but I'm trying!
 
 
FinderWolf
17:56 / 19.11.03
Read the thread carefully - esp. the beginning where I go into my experiences with American Indians/Native Americans and what they like to be called, for the most part.

"Native" doesn't imply savagery except in your girlfriend's head, I would aruge, since I worked with American Indians for 2 years and have learned a great deal about that culture and they take pride in calling themselves "Native" (as in 'we were here first'). I understand her argument about it but that's not what 95% of Indian people think.

And I also address the "Columbus thought he was in India" thing too. So read away! I don't want to retype it all
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:21 / 19.11.03
Um, I sure as hell didn't say it wasn't wrong, racist or insensitive as opposed to purely "not PC." Your saying this discussion has been solely about what's "PC" as opposed to what's common sense racist or prejudice or insensitive makes me think you haven't really read the thread, or read it carefully.

Well, I hate to sound like I am talking to stupid, naive children, but you have managed to misread my post completely, if indeed (to follow your idiom) you have read it at all.

I said that olulabelle used the term "un-PC". At the beginning of the thread. I do not believe that at any point I suggested that the whole thread has been solely about what is "PC" or otherwise, as your scan appeared to reveal. I would also add that I did not start a new thread on "PC" but a new thread on parenting - you appear not to have read olulabelle's post very closely either.

I am suggesting that the terms are being used to shield one another (as olulabelle subsequently and very adroitly suggested, "am I a racist?" or "am I defending the use of a racist term?" are very difficult phrases to employ, except possibly rhetorically), as they very frequently are. It is possible that you are simply not able to follow the thread of the argument over PC, which is quite complex, in which case I will attempt to express it more simply, but I'm afraid I have grown accustomed to the Head Shop being a place where complicated ideas can be expressed and discussed, and even if this is no longer the case a degree of pour encourager les autres might still be seen as admissable.

Oh, and Chubby - Hunterwolf's right. It's not a long thread, and there is some very interesting stuff in it.

So, onward. How about the question of whether ignorance is a defence? I suspect that I would not quite follow the hard line on this, but it certainly seems a worthwhile argument that it is very easy if you are in a position of privilege (to use Orange Julius' very apposite addition to the terminology) not to make an effort to examine one's behaviour and one's language. It is to Olulabelle's credit that she is now examining the role of this term in her lexicon. It is, however, surely reasonable, if pulled up on the use of a term, to examine how and where it is used, and to make a decision from those informed grounds?

Then again, how do we determine when a ground is firm enough?
I think that there are certainly cases in which context is pretty much universal - the ever-popular "n"-word is one which I think is pretty hard to use without an awareness of its impact, but we have seen defences of the use of the equally popular abbreviation for "Pakistani" defended as a reasonable thing to shout in the street in Australia and Britain.
 
 
grant
21:13 / 19.11.03
Col. Sanders was never a colonel in any non poultry-related army, but he was a real guy.

Well, he claimed to be a Kentucky Colonel (I had a professor who was), but it's unclear whether he was making that up or not. His first name was Harlan, by the way, and Dave Thomas (of Wendy's) was the one who convinced him to start his own chain of restaurants.

Wendy, by the way, was Dave Thomas' niece. She's a little girl, like Little Debbie.

White food brand figureheads also include Betty Crocker and Sara Lee. And the aforementioned Mrs. Butterworth.

Native was offensive because it implied savagery.

I agree that's pretty loopy.

Like we used to have "Florida Native" bumper stickers here -- just the word "Native" over an outline of the state of Florida. This may or may not imply savagery of a different sort, but I don't think it's offensive.

It is, however, surely reasonable, if pulled up on the use of a term, to examine how and where it is used, and to make a decision from those informed grounds?

Then again, how do we determine when a ground is firm enough?


Well, you have to make a stand somewhere.

I think that question might lead right to the heart of identity, which is a whole other ball of wax. As in who-am-I-compared-to-those-others.
 
 
FinderWolf
02:22 / 20.11.03
>> I would also add that I did not start a new thread on "PC" but a new thread on parenting - you appear not to have read olulabelle's post very closely either.

Yep, you're correct about this. It's my mistake - I did read it carefully but misunderstood. And with the whole 'PC' thing, I guess I just wanted to point out that when Olula said 'is this PC?', I would think she meant 'PC' in the sense of 'wrong, racist, immoral or insensitive', since that's what I feel it's come to mean in the common/colloquial sense now.

>> It is possible that you are simply not able to follow the thread of the argument over PC, which is quite complex, in which case I will attempt to express it more simply, but I'm afraid I have grown accustomed to the Head Shop being a place where complicated ideas can be expressed and discussed, and even if this is no longer the case a degree of pour encourager les autres might still be seen as admissable.

Sorry we're disappointing you here as compared to the Head Shop.
 
 
Chubby P
08:02 / 20.11.03
Cheers HunterWolf! I'll go search out your earlier posts!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:07 / 20.11.03
Hunterwolf, re: the origin of the term 'Indian' as applied to the nstive Americans: even if the origin is the Spanish word equivalent to 'indigenous', I don't think that alters centuries af Anglophone use of the words 'Indians' as a generic term for native peoples in the Americas and in Asia... just a minor quibble really, but I think prevailing usage does often outweigh origin where language is concerned. So perhaps it's not completely daft to find it offensive.
 
  

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