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When a Red Indian is not a Red Indian and other un-PC terminology.

 
  

Page: (1)2345

 
 
Olulabelle
10:33 / 23.10.03
In response to my nearly 6 year old son dancing about with a feather stuck in the back of his hair:

Me: You make an excellent Red Indian.
Sister's fiance: You can't say that, it's appalling!
Me: Pardon? Why?
Sister's fiance: Because you're referring to someone on the basis of their colour. The correct term is Native American Indian.


But I can say white, right? And black? Isn't black the accepted politically correct term to use? I know in America they say African American, but black is OK too isn't it? So why is it wrong to say Red Indian? If I was referring to the original native American Indians who did wear feathers in their hair, and given that I was talking to a 5 year old, should I really have said (Native) American Indian? If I had, wouldn't that have implied I meant something completely different? Should I have first explained the terminology and then told him that's what I thought he looked like?

I didn't mean a modern day person of American Indian origin, I meant a..a..Red Indian. Should I have said Cherokee? Sioux? But my son wouldn't have understood those terms. I feel devastated to think that anyone could have taken offence at such an innocent comment, but maybe I'm being naive? Was I being hideously un-PC? Was I being unconsciously racist?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:07 / 23.10.03
No, I don't think you were being racist, I think you were using a term from your childhood. Kids don't play Cowboys and Native Americans, they play Cowboys and Indians, so you said Red Indian, don't shoot yourself over it. If you were referring to a person in front of you as a Red Indian than you might be in a bit of trouble but really you were referring to fiction, a game that people play. When the game's renamed than you can start to get nervous and as for your sister's fiance... sounds like he needs to start reading and stop behaving like a reactionary idiot. You're referring to someone on the basis of their colour sounds a little bit 'I'm better than you'. He needs the good fight, I suggest you give it to him.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:40 / 23.10.03
Just because 'the black community' are cool with being called 'the black community' doesn't mean it's okay that 'the american indian community' should be cool with being called 'the red indian community'. Completely different communities, completely different rules. To take it to an extreme, you might as well say 'If I can call blacks black, why can't I call x y', where x is a community and y is an insulting term for them.

TO CLARIFY: It was once thought nothing of to refer to black males as 'boy' regardless of age, or to use the 'n' word. It is now less so. But would you, if talking about someone from the 1920s use the 'n' word when you'd talk about a similar man today as 'black'?

As it is, I think your sisters fiance was overreacting a bit, but are you saying you've brought up your son to know what a 'red indian' is but not that the prefered term is 'native american' or 'american indian'?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:04 / 23.10.03
But he's not even a six year old... it's like asking a kid from England to know what a Croatian is or distinguish between Yugoslavians and Bosnians.
 
 
Olulabelle
18:18 / 23.10.03
Well yes exactly Anna. And also, I was trying to refer to a 'character'; a Red Indian of cowboy and Indian fame, as Anna says. I wasn't trying to explain to him about the cultural heritage of America, or even trying to discuss the differences between races.

When he's old enough I'll bring him up to know that the preferred term is American Indian or native American Indian, but it was a comment about the 'fairytale story' of Red Indians.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
18:47 / 23.10.03
Oh well that's all right then...

"When he turns ten, that's when we teach our child they're called black people, not niggers."

Jesus, what about the idea that it's easier to get the right ideas into kids when they're younger?

Give me a child at six and he'll know that they're called 'American Indians' for life!
 
 
at the scarwash
19:00 / 23.10.03
Most Natives I know call themselves Indians. The U.S. Government still has a Bureau of Indian Affairs. I don't know what they want me to call them. I think I just gingerly push the word "Native" around. Actually, I think Native American is falling out of favor on the front lines of the classification wars. Persons of Indigenous Descent, or some mouthful like that.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:27 / 23.10.03
"When he turns ten, that's when we teach our child they're called black people, not niggers."

Oh goodness.

Flowers, are you really suggesting that instead of having a mild gentle gameplaying conversation with my son I should start lecturing him on politically correct terminology? He's only just learnt how to write! Should I perhaps have stopped him from wearing the feather in his hair altogether in case it could be construed as a politically incorrect thing to do? Isn't it taking things a little bit too far when a child has to be fully au fait with all the correct terminology before he can be allowed to play make-believe?

Obviously I'm not going to walk up to an American indian/native American/person of indigenous descent and say "oh, hi, you're a red indian," because as I said I was actually referring to the 'fairytale,' the story of a red indian. Not a person who exists in the modern world.

I don't know where that quote is from, but surely the fact that I started this thread means I am not of the "when my child turns ten" brigade, whoever they may be. I was just shocked to have had such a strong reaction from my sister's fiance to a comment I really didn't think was offensive, and if it was, (as seems the case) I'm interested to know why. But I'm not sure I think it's exactly cool to suggest that because I said red indian, I therefore must also be the sort of person who would teach their child the word 'nigger.'
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:31 / 23.10.03
Look I'm not sure how to explain this because a part of me sees your point Lady but I think Olulabelle was talking entirely about a fiction and not the actual Native American community and if you did explain that to a six year old I think it would be difficult and particularly in an environment like that. Not only might the kid misunderstand the reason for calling a Red Indian a Native American but they would probably get confused by the fictinal element so why not explain the two stories separately and then let the child discover the connection later on?
 
 
grant
20:32 / 23.10.03
Far as I know, if you're whitey, you call 'em Native Americans, and if you're Native American, you casually call each other Indian, or "Skin" (if you're full-blooded or close) and "Breed" (if you're not). Both slang terms are abbreviations of derogatory terms "Redskin" and "Half-breed." These are not the words you use if you're trying to make friends out of strangers.

I dislike the term "American Indian" just because it's imprecise. (That's the same reason I dislike the term "Asian" as a substitute for "East Asian" or "Oriental" or whatever else - cuz it don't include, like, Indians and Israelis and Uzbeks in common usage.)

"Red Indian" is a construction that's totally non-American. My German aunts and my South African grandmothers used it, but it's just not in American English as far as I know.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:33 / 23.10.03
I worked with Indian people (not from India, but American Indians) for 2 years in the midwest - they do mostly call themselves Indians (like blacks using a formerly negative term - 'blacks' - and making it their own and embracing it as symbol of pride, they're not too concerned about the idea that Columbus was wrong when he thought he was in India and 'named' them incorrectly) but some say "American Indian" and some say "Native American." Sometimes they just call themselves "native people." Like any large ethnic group, you're never going to get full consensus among thousands of people on what they want to be called. Some say 'black' is ok, some prefer 'African American', some say 'African American' is not cool because you might be black but from the West Indes or the Carribean and not from Africa.

BUT, using "Red" is not appropriate and never was. (I'm not saying this in a scolding way, obviously you didn't know the term was no longer approrpiate and is, in fact, disrespectful.) I've actually never heard of the term "Red Indian" being used except for like old 1950's cowboy black and white movies and stuff. That's like saying Asians are "yellow."

The modern Indian might still wear ceremonial garb for certain special occasions, but they don't really like when they only see themselves represented or thought of as caricatures with beads and feathers in their hair. It's the only ethnic group that when we picture them we get this very specific, outdated and racist image -- that of the tribal Indian in full ceremonial garb. That's why the old comic book images of literally-yellow-colored Asians with long thin moustaches, slanty eyes and buck teeth protruding from their upper lip with their hair in that long pony tail and maybe a fez-type hat aren't cool anymore, ditto 'sambo' with the black face (or Aunt Jemima with the apron, maternal look and huge thick black lips).

This is why the presentation of Indian people in sports team incenses people. The Washington Redskins is a team, but if you ever tried to name a team "The East L.A. Hispanics," "The Brooklyn Spics", the "New York Darkies" or the "Los Angeles Blackskins" you'd of course never get away with it. While the argument could be made that the Cleveland Indians name is ok, their caricature of the smiling Indian is just like the black minstrel cartoon faces of the 1930s and should be abolished. What other professional sports team is named after a race?!? "Vikings" don't count since there aren't Vikings around anymore - Vikings are more in the same world of King Arthur and his knights or something very historically far away like that.

(Incidentally, one might say 'the fighting Irish' of Notre Dame and their leprechaun image is racist, but that's an image that's ok with white Irish Catholics - double standards happen a lot in this kind of thing. But assume that all Irish are drunks and you might encounter some problems with your Irish friends, who might understandably resent that.)

American Indians don't have the political voice, money and power that other minorities have in this country, so when people put caricatures or stereoptypical images of Indian people on teams or products, no one really complains. They don't have the power base that black music (like rap, hip hop, etc.) or movie stars or athletes help create in terms of social awareness, nor do they have the power base that Latino music, Latino actors like Jennifer Lopez and such help create.

Indian people have some small political groups (like the formerly radical AIM - American Indian Movement, which was tainted by militarism similar to the Black Panthers of the 60s and lost popular respect and support as a result) but nothing like the NAACP, the United Negro College Fund, or any other of the many groups that help the black community. Plus, there are so few American Indian people left in America since our ancestors (well, some of our ancestors, I'm not saying we should all have white guilt and feel like WE killed them, or blacks, or anyone, just be sensitive to and aware of the history) killed most of them, and as you probably know, many of the surviving American Indian population is stuck in a cycle of poverty and squalor without any big business to back them up or political lobbyists (the oft-referenced casinos are their only major business and are filled with corruption, just like most businesses; plus, they're not enough to educate an entire race and lift them out of the ghettos and reservations).

I don't think 'Native American' is falling out of favor in any significant way - it may be seen as sounding a little TOO overly P.C. by some, but it's not going out of style among Indian people. Like I said, generally acceptable terms are either 'Native American', 'American Indian' or just plain 'Indian'. (sometimes I clarify after I say 'Indian' - 'American Indian, not people from India')

Anyway, now you know.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:40 / 23.10.03
>> Well yes exactly Anna. And also, I was trying to refer to a 'character'; a Red Indian of cowboy and Indian fame, as Anna says. I wasn't trying to explain to him about the cultural heritage of America, or even trying to discuss the differences between races.

>> When he's old enough I'll bring him up to know that the preferred term is American Indian or native American Indian, but it was a comment about the 'fairytale story' of Red Indians.

Indian people are not storybook characters - this is where I think you're going off-course here. You wouldn't tell a black person or a Hispanic person that they were modern version of 'fairytale' or 'storybook' characters, even if they were dressing the way they might have in at the turn of the century. Some modern American Indian people put feathers in their hair, wear intricately beaded outfits, ceremonial headdresses, etc. for religious, spiritual and cultural events - that doesn't make them storybook characters the moment they put the traditional cultural clothes on.

This is what Indian people - and any other ethnic group - get upset about - they are not 'characters.' They are people. You don't need to refer to them by their specific tribe. They are either Indian, American Indian or Native American, just please not "Red Indians."
 
 
Olulabelle
20:55 / 23.10.03
Ok.

Hunterwolf, Grant, thank you for that. I'll drop the red indian. And, BTW, I would never go up to anyone and tell them they were a modern day version of a storybook character.

But now I'm interested in the politics of make-believe - maybe I actually should be stopping him from dancing around wearing feathers in his hair. If this is a stereotype (which it is) perhaps the kids game of cowboys and indians really is wrong? I guess just because it's something that was acceptable when I was a child, doesn't mean it's acceptable nowadays.
 
 
FinderWolf
23:54 / 23.10.03
You can certainly drop the 'red', no need to drop the 'indian.' If I were in your shoes I would say to my child 'Indian people sometimes wear feathers in their hair like you were wearing, especially many years ago or on special holidays...they lived in this land [if you're in the USA] a long time ago before other people came here.' The whole learning about the mass genocide thing can certainly wait til your child is a teenager.

I didn't mean to imply that you would come up to someone and say they were a storybook character, but the whole thinking that Indian = guy in ceremonial dress with feather in their hair is sort of what American Indians are struggling to change. It's like saying someone from a tribe in Africa must automatically be assumed to look like Bushmen of the Kalahari from National Geographic, or that Spanish people all look like Sancho Panza or Speedy Gonzales. That's why I used the word 'sometimes' with the feather-wearing thing above. The goal is not to eliminate knowledge of that part of their culture but not to assume that dress/image/stereotype, which carries many negative and prejudiced connotations (you know, "How, me makum good soup for Great White Man") is all their culture is.

But, believe me, I have 3 nieces who watch the Disney POCHAHONTAS over and over and say they want to be Indian princesses and get all dressed up in Indian costumes. They just love the visuals and the outfits, but thankfully they're not doing the Indian whoop or tomahawk chop. And at least POCHAHONTAS isn't old black and white "kill the savages who attack our camp!" movies. I guess what I mean to say is it's always complicated, esp. for parents. Then again, kids could also love the dress of a Spanish flamenco dancer or 18th Victorian-outfitted dolls and there's nothing wrong with that.

As for cowboys and indians, you raise a good point - you probably don't want to encourage white men vs. indians as good guys vs. bad guys or culture/'progress' vs. savages/heathens, which is pretty much what cowboys & indians was/is. But I would say as a parent, as long as you teach respect, tolerance, and not judging people by what they look like or the color of their skin, you're in good shape, and I'm sure you're already all over that. (I don't mean that sarcastically, I mean that sincerely.)

Anyway, you seem really cool and I hope I didn't come off condescending. The whole race thing is always sensitive and it's not really consistent, obviously, from case to case. Just teaching children and being about respect and tolerance for diversity, as B.S. P.C. as that sounds, is where it's really at. Cheesy but true, and I applaud you for posing the question on a very thought-provoking topic. Peace!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
05:56 / 24.10.03
Yeah, what Hunterwolf said. I'm sure Olulabelle is a great parent, I was just dubious that there seemed to be an implication that the son was old enough to be filled up with numpty ideas but not old enough to be taught things that were at least partly true. There seemed to be a 'well if I'm not allowed to call them Red Indians then he's not allowed to run around with feathers in his hair doing a war chant!' attitude here. I'm just suggesting there's room for both.
 
 
Enamon
08:16 / 24.10.03
I think you should have the right to call him a Red Indian. Hey, if he's one-a-dem commie hindus then it should be alright.
 
 
Olulabelle
08:54 / 24.10.03
You know, it's so difficult being a parent because every little thing you say can be misconstrued by the child, stored away and filed and then years later you could find yourself confronted with a passing comment you once made which has become indelibly imprinted on the childs brain. Even if you are tired or angry at something and you are short tempered with your child, you have to be aware that everything you do or say can be one of that child's abiding memories. It's the 'well my parents thought it, so it must be alright' syndrome. Which I have, I must confess. I was brought up in a household where politics and political correctness were important, and where I was constantly aware of the social implications of my behaviour. For a long time I believed everything my Mum thought was right - I mean, she protested at Greenham Common, so she must be cool, right?!

So when it comes to things like cowboys and indians I think back to my childhood, see myself playing it and don't really think twice about whether my son should or shouldn't. Which is very naive.

It's only when you become the main 'behavioural guideline' for someone that you begin to realise a lot of the ways you behaved as a child were not ideal, and that what was once acceptable in a society (for example Robinsons Jam Gollywog badges, an English thing I think) would cause, quite rightly, uproar now.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:33 / 24.10.03
If children cannot play Cowboys and Indians, if they're not allowed to use the term Red Indian when referring to fiction, if none of us are then does it not follow that we should stop watching the films that spur us on to such behaviour in the first place?

On the other hand couldn't we just accept that Red Indians are fictional characters, teach our children so and allow them to play such games?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:10 / 24.10.03
You know, it's so difficult being a parent because every little thing you say can be misconstrued by the child, stored away and filed and then years later you could find yourself confronted with a passing comment you once made which has become indelibly imprinted on the childs brain.

olulabelle, it seems to me that you're confronted with two problems. One is that you've obviously wanting to think through the kinds of offhand comments you make to your kid. But the other thing is, kids aren't 'kids', as I'm sure you know, they're thinking people and they're curious and fascinated by complexity just like most people. Explaining, or asking questions, and trying to give a sense of history or causation or meaning when you say stuff is a good thing, IMO. Then you really don't have to worry about the kid 'indeibly printing' some bad logic, because you've provided a context, or some kind of open-ended process that they can use to start thinking things through themselves.

And on genocide, I don't think it's ever too early for kids to learn about colonisation, genocide, etc. Non-white kids get to learn about this stuff from when they're babies: their whole lives are affected by it. They are never in a position where they *can* be ignorant or protected from the facts. The less kids are told when they're small about oppression, the more they take on unconscious violences and reassert them, completely unaware of what they mean...

Maybe the trick is to find a non-programmatic, non-crazy way of letting your kids in on all this, and opening them up to being aware/thinking for themselves. Which kids can do, from a surprisingly young age...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:37 / 24.10.03
If children cannot play Cowboys and Indians, if they're not allowed to use the term Red Indian when referring to fiction, if none of us are then does it not follow that we should stop watching the films that spur us on to such behaviour in the first place?

On the other hand couldn't we just accept that Red Indians are fictional characters, teach our children so and allow them to play such games?


In that case, then, let's allow our children to play at Yellow Peril, where all Chinese are evil devil people, because we still read the occasional Fu Manchu story (or the first series of LoEG, which of course also means we should let them play Wogs and Englishmen).

But wait - that's obviously different because we never played those games when *we* were children. That really seems to be the crux of your argument, Anna: that because it never did you any harm then it's obviously okay.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:31 / 24.10.03
>> If children cannot play Cowboys and Indians, if they're not allowed to use the term Red Indian when referring to fiction, if none of us are then does it not follow that we should stop watching the films that spur us on to such behaviour in the first place?

>> On the other hand couldn't we just accept that Red Indians are fictional characters, teach our children so and allow them to play such games?

Why are you stuck on this 'referring to fiction' thing? You can have a child read a book of Indian folk myths and still not refer to them as 'red people' or 'red Indians.' And can you call other races by racist names when referring to their mythologies?

Anna, are you saying that kids should be also allowed to refer to black people as "niggers" when studying TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD? And it is not a satisfactory answer to say "They'll be older when they see that movie/read that book."

** A great rule of thumb ** is if you couldn't get away with doing it with any other race (i.e. blacks, Hispanics/Latinos, etc.), it's very much not cool to do it with American Indians.

You can still watch cowboy movies with your child, you might also explain to them later that Indians are not 'bad guys', that the movie was made at a time when they were perceived as 'bad guys' or not as smart as 'white' people. The adventure of the movie is ok to enjoy as long as it's put in context.

You seem to be really wanting to not only allow, but encourage children to play cowboys & indians at all costs.

E. Randy Dupre also wonderfully shows the problem in the line of thinking you propose. For example, no one is saying you should ban the movie musical GUYS & DOLLS because it can be seen as sexist and cheesy in its depiction of women. You just put it in its proper context. And yes, that can be done in simple ways when explaining things to children also. Or you show them GUYS & DOLLS and then you show them a movie with lots of strong, intelligent female characters to balance it out and show them that GUYS & DOLLS is more cartoony in its style than the other more enlightened, more realistic movie you show them.

There are subtle things here, like I said, different for each situation.
 
 
Tom Coates
10:50 / 26.10.03
My mother has a saying, "A parents place is in the wrong", and while she is a mad old bat I think it's worth reminding people that everyone has different opinions about child-rearing, that it's profoundly difficult and anxiety-producing as a process and that the fear of the consequences of one's actions are profound and long-lasting. Particularly around such difficult areas as ethnic identity, history and colonialism, where many of the issues aren't resolved to the extent that many adults themselves still don't have clear and defined opinions about the rights, wrongs and consequences.

So perhaps - while freely giving our opinions on the subject - we should make sure we're sensitive to olulabelle's dilemma and anxieties, respect her for asking for advice and being so reasonable about the responses she's been given. I'd be delighted if this kind of problem was discussed more on the board - it's pretty clear to everyone that parenting is difficult and that the experience of it is routinely different from the theory.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:30 / 27.10.03
I'm talking about reference to a whole genre of film and attempting to distinguish between characters in those films and real events. As a child I wasn't allowed to play with guns, military dolls, anything of the sort. I was taught about apartheid but all I knew was that it was wrong because I was too young to understand what the hell apartheid was. As a person who was subject to an incredible amount of social conditioning as a kid I can tell you that I didn't get it at all. It took me years to sort all of it out in my head and though I do agree with the opinions now that doesn't change the fact that I didn't have a clue what they were about. I'm not suggesting that we allow Native Americans to be Red Indians, that all Chinese people are devils, that black people should be niggers. I'm suggesting that we treat kids like they have brains, that we bring them up to see that I've actually never heard of the term "Red Indian" being used except for like old 1950's cowboy black and white movies and stuff. That's like saying Asians are "yellow."

Let children realise these things for themselves, give them enough room to understand and for god's sake don't fill them to the brim with politically correct language... just don't let them be offensive either. We stifle kids enough already... a bunch of kids playing cowboys and indians in England isn't going to harm anyone including the kids.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:04 / 27.10.03
Just quickly, to clarify what I mean- I simply think that children should be told that Red Indians have never existed, that they're made up and that Native Americans are completely separate. Words like 'nigger' were intentionally racist terms but it appears to have been outlined here that Red Indian has never really been a term applied to Native Americans just fictional constructs so why can't we simply leave it at that for small children? There's a whole world of confusion in explaining politics to kids, looking back on it I personally didn't appreciate it at all.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:25 / 27.10.03
First off, I agree with Tom completely and I tried to express my sensitivity to parenting matters in general in one of my above posts here.

Secondly, I completely disagree that "Red Indian" is a "fictional construct" or "completely separate" from Native Americans. I suppose this is the major concern I have here. It's nothing but a racist term/stereotypical image for Native Americans. You sound like you're arguing that "evil Yellow Asians" (for example, if we apply this line of reasoning to other minorities who have been the targets of prejudice) are just a harmless fictional contruct instead of a racist image fueled with fear, hatred, paranoia and misunderstanding against a people. Are 'nigger', Black Sambo, Uncle Tom, or Civil War slaves 'fictional, storybook constructs'? Would you seriously tell a child "'Niggers' don't really and never really have existed and have nothing whatsoever to do with African-American people, they're just storybook tales?" instead of saying "'Nigger' is a horrible mean word people have used to hurt black people's feelings? Black people, or any people with different colored skin, are just like you and me and they should be treated as equals?" 'Spics' are just storybook fictional versions of Hispanics, instead of a hateful insulting disparagint term of Hispanic/Latino people??

Red Indian IS a term that has been applied to Native Americans. I don't know where you got this bizarre notion that you feel has been "established in this thread" that calling Indian people "red" isn't a racist, derogatory term. It is and it was, no doubt about it.

Indian people DID exist, and because their skin was darker and could be seen as having a more reddish tint than caucasians, they were called 'red' just like people with dark brown skin were called 'blacks' and Asian people were called 'yellow'. I said I've seen the term used (just like calling all Indians 'red') in cowboy movies where the Indians are The Enemy - savage, evil, warlike and vicious, a threat to The American Way.

And I went out of my way in an earlier post to say I'm not saying we should discount or never watch an entire and very valid film genre. I said watch those movies, show them to your kids, just explain afterwards that Indians aren't that way in real life. I don't think there's much distinction between what you're calling a harmelss storybook fictional construct and a racist stereotype. It's not like "Red Indian" is equivalent to an Elf in fantasy literature or something like that.

BUT, having said all that, I'm going to stop posting on the subject cause I really feel like I've said all I have to say on the matter. And of course, these subjects of racism, image, stereotype, and especially how to deal with these subjects in child-rearing are very complex and sensitive, and I won't truly know what it's like until I'm a parent. But I've outlined above how I will deal with it, and my thoughts, feelings and impressions on the subject. Once again I commend olulabelle for asking about this and being open to the views discussed in this thread.

And I don't mean to come off as attacking Anna, I just feel strongly about this and feel that I want to at least raise alternatives to the views Anna is presenting on the subject. I hope I'm doing so in a polite and debating manner. Peace to all --
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:28 / 28.10.03
Oh no, it's okay, I know this is a very emotive subject and I can see where you're coming from. To be honest I feel that my argument is a little dubious but I've never had the opportunity to sit down and discuss this with anyone from a Native American background. I also feel that there's a strong distinction between 'nigger' which is generally accepted as a very offensive word and 'Red Indian' that can be negative but is not necessarily meant in that way. I had got the impression from this thread that Red Indian was rarely used now and in the past and usually by people from outside the country who were unclear of the terminology. Obviously if that was the truth it would be easier to separate one word as fictional and the other as real. I'm not getting that impression from you though so I'll leave my argument here except to say that the distinction between fiction and reality is precisely what makes the term Red Indian less dangerous. I think we're agreeing to a certain extent when you say explain afterwards that Indians aren't that way in real life. You want to link Red Indians and Native Americans together but I think the very notion of linking them is ridiculous because Native Americans never were Red Indians except through some foolish trick of language.

[Threadrot] Lastly, I think there's a problem with this thread- it's dysfunctional because it's been started as subjective and there's a little too much worry about offending Olulabelle. It feels a bit like she's become a crutch for the issue. Could we not let that kind of thing go once we actually engage in the notion behind the thread? [/threadrot]
 
 
grant
11:40 / 28.10.03
I had got the impression from this thread that Red Indian was rarely used now and in the past and usually by people from outside the country who were unclear of the terminology.

Well, "Red Indian" is pretty foreign-sounding (to my ears). But "redskin" ain't. And, I suppose, anyone would get the small-r "red Indian" from context.
 
 
Olulabelle
11:50 / 28.10.03
[Continuing threadrot]

I would like people not to feel that this thread is becoming dysfunctional.

I don't in general tend to get offended by an issue, and I like the way this thread has twisted and turned. I think that the way things grow out of discussion is interesting. I know it was a subjective start to the thread, but that's because I had a direct experience which I needed to relate in order to introduce the topic. I guess I could have couched it in less personal language, and maybe I should have done that in retrospect.

I don't think the issue is about my parenting in particular, and I don't feel attacked by what people are saying, on the contrary, and I do like the way everyone uses language which isn't personally confrontational. However, of course it's good to have people pointing out that they aren't attacking me, and to have people pointing out that no-one should be doing so.

The trouble with any discussion about parenting is that it such a highly emotive subject, and it really is difficult to discuss without being subjective. It's a subject where there are no clear right answers, (although there are a lot of obvious sensible paths.) So of course people will have some concerns about upsetting the person who originally brought up the subject, and they are right to do so. But I think Anna is right when she says perhaps it would be good to try and let that go once the thread is up and running.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I'm not taking this personally, and I hope this thread continues to be as interesting as it has been thus far.

[End continuing threadrot.]
 
 
fdb
11:54 / 28.10.03
I am posting this on behalf of my fiancé, who appears to have been the cause of this discussion in the first place, as currently you cannot join Barbelith and post immediately.

'Mis-quoting or 'mis-hearing' can be a dangerous and niggling thing Olulabelle.
What I said was, it was no longer acceptable to call Native Americans 'red indians,' as they themselves had decreed - rightly - that it was an historically offensive (not to mention very ignorant/arrogant - 'we sailed west looking for India, so this must be it') term coined by the narrow-minded colonialists who came over and stole their country. It is exactly why you can't call black people niggers, Irish - bogtrotters, Italians - Wops etc. etc. I did not mention colour once.

The point is, it is utterly irrelevant what the 'we gathered here' on Barbelith think or don't think on the subject if I, as a native american/black man/irishman have decided that the term is offensive to me on the grounds I have laid out above, then it is no longer a topic for contentious debate, nor is it an opinion, it is a fact. Ergo, everyone should respect it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:15 / 28.10.03
if I, as a native american/black man/irishman have decided that the term is offensive to me on the grounds I have laid out above, then it is no longer a topic for contentious debate, nor is it an opinion, it is a fact. Ergo, everyone should respect it.

A historically offensive term... well that's interesting because it depends on the boundaries of that term. If you are indeed discussing something that relates entirely to nation or colour that's fair I think but historically offensive? That's a whole other thread. History is subjective, it's generally accpeted that it's written by those that win the battle and it's arrogant to assume that it stops being written by them because we change a word/the oppressed gain a weak voice. 'Red Indian' for example would never have existed without the victory of the invaders. The plight of the Red Indians is highlighted today by 1)the events of the second world war and 2)the end of the black slave trade. Thus they may suddenly reclaim an offensive word but that alone does not automatically make that word out of bounds. I rather think there must be something else- communist does not become offensive because the Soviets killed so many people in the early 20th century after all.

Obviously I'm not saying that offensive terms are right but I think your view is slightly odd fdb's fiance. There must surely be another element to the change in language?
 
 
Olulabelle
13:07 / 28.10.03
The point is, it is utterly irrelevant what the 'we gathered here' on Barbelith think or don't think on the subject if I, as a native american/black man/irishman have decided that the term is offensive to me on the grounds I have laid out above, then it is no longer a topic for contentious debate, nor is it an opinion, it is a fact. Ergo, everyone should respect it.

FDB's fiance, hello. This thread is primarily about the ill thought out use of potentially offensive words, when words are considered politically incorrect and why, and secondarily about the problems and pitfalls of debating culture and ethics with ones children. There is, I think, a place in it for contentious debate on what are and are not considered offensive words, but only within the topic outlines set above.

We appear to have established that the term red indian is not acceptable for many other reasons than simply referring to colour, and I, for one have found it interesting and insightful. The politics of native american issues are shamefully unfamiliar to me, perhaps in part due to not being an American, so I have been glad to read what people who hold more knowledge than I on the subject have to say on the matter. You are right to say that if you as a native american/black man/irish man find something I say to be offensive, then I should accept that, and I think we are all agreed on that point.

Now I think the debate which was originally initiated with regard to that subject has morphed into one of how to correctly educate your children on traumatic, racist or politically unsound world events, and how to bring them up with a politically correct awareness without detracting from the delight and innocence of being a child. I like this subject and I am finding it fascinating.

So I am interested, how do you think a parent could best address these issues?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:56 / 28.10.03
communist does not become offensive because the Soviets killed so many people in the early 20th century after all.

Not a very accurate comparison - 'Communist' isn't a racial definition. It's also a term of self-defintion, a rallying cry for those who are part of that belief system and a title they choose for themselves.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
14:41 / 28.10.03
Obviously I'm not saying that offensive terms are right but I think your view is slightly odd fdb's fiance. There must surely be another element to the change in language?

Surely fdb's fiance's reason is enough? I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time in the past half a year arguing with people who seem to be unable to grasp the concept that if a person or group of people object(s) to being called a particular name, they should not be referred to by that name. People have the right to be called whatever they wish to be called; they do not, however, have the right to call other people whatever they like.

(And I'm a little confused at the Communist example - surely it would only be applicable if Communists were to say they found the word offensive? I'm sure, though, that if one were to start calling all Russians "Communists", quite a lot of offence would be caused...)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:25 / 28.10.03
I don't think it is enough because there's an immediate assumption that an individual can speak on behalf of a culture and that's never good enough. If someone says 'don't call me *****' than that's fair but if they say 'don't call any white middle class person *****' than they're speaking for everyone who can be labelled as a white middle class person. So when does a term become offensive on a wide scale? We know lots of words/terms that are. Racist terminology fits well but it's usually the intent that is seen as racist. Nigger (I really hate even writing that btw) is used between a lot of black people as an affectionate term but when a white person utters it without permission they're being offensive. Is it not the underlying intent that makes the phrase so? It may be a historically offensive term but our current culture emphasises it and transfers it in to something more.

(Actually with communist I was just trying to find a word that was halfway applicable... if anyone can think of one that's better then I'd be grateful of the example but my point there was really that a word doesn't become offensive because someone uses it in an offensive way.)
 
 
CorvusB
22:13 / 28.10.03
Personally I do object to being called white. I'm not white. I'm the palest person I've ever met, and still I, just like every other so-called race on this planet, am a combination of pink, blue, and brown. Nor do I particularly have a whole lot in common with the majority of people that are labelled white.

As far as "Red Indians" go, living in the Pacific Northwest United States, I run into a great many of them and most seem to prefer to be called whatever tribe they identify with (Quillute, Lakota, Stillaguamish, etc). Seems to make sense to me. I prefer to be called Scottish. If you want a catch-all, I've found it useful to be painfully explicit and descriptive: "North American Tribal People".
 
  

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