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From tiny thought-forms massive gods do grow ... maybe

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12:39 / 31.01.07

*bump*

Should we concern ourselves with the ethical treatment of servitors? On the one hand if they are sentient then like animals the question of rights arises, on the other if they are tools or a part of the self then the idea is meaningless. Are servitors and other created thoughtforms more like dogs or more like spanners?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:42 / 31.01.07

Kudos for bumping this thread, dude, but isn't that kind of the conversation we were already having over in the Sloppy Servitors topic?

13:45 / 31.01.07

Point. Link to that thread for posterity.

14:48 / 31.01.07

on the Deity evolution thing that was poking at me a while ago...
I was mulling stuff over and it came to me that I needed an analogy to get my head around it.

A river is fed by many smaller streams and trickles. Each in turn feeds out to the sea or ocean. Even the larger body may spill out and join a larger. There are moments when I am focused on the creek winding under the leaves and whispering its unique stories and then it is right for me to shape my perception to the very small being the water currently is. Other times it may be important for me to be aware of how the creek feeds into the river and how their personalites mingle and change. From the rain drop, mud puddle, and open spigot to the vast crashing shore I can also choose to commune with water itself. None of these distinctions in my mind affect the path the water runs, only the way I speak with it.

To understand the nature of the river I must learn where it comes from but I should not reduce the importance of the smaller waterways to merely sources of the larger. Each has its own unique beauty, power, and personality to be appreciated. The tragedies of each build into the collective as do the joys and yet the histories remain unique.

It is a silly diversion to spend too much time trying to pin down where one ends and the next begins. It is better to sit with each and let the ascribed boundary remain fluid as it obviously is anyway.

..and yes I'm actually talking about the relationship of regional Deities and Archetypes to One and Other.

14:56 / 31.01.07

Should we concern ourselves with the ethical treatment of servitors?

No.

On the one hand if they are sentient then like animals the question of rights arises,

It's a big "if" - a gargantun one IMO, and until someone posts something taken from their own direct experience (ah, those golden words) indicating that servitors aren't anything more than ideas and beliefs dressed up (or jizzed up, possibly) - and furthermore, posts evidence again from TODE, that establishes these entites that they are actually suffering....

... it's a completely moot question.

If you really want to find out, why not actually do the magick and post your own opinions?
and furthermore(those on the other if they are tools or a part of the self then the idea is meaningless. Are servitors and other created thoughtforms more like dogs or more like spanners?

trouser the trouserian

05:05 / 01.02.07

and furthermore, posts evidence again from TODE, that establishes these entites that they are actually suffering....

In the last issue of Servitor Today we examined the plight of overworked servitors - made to clean the toilet, cook the magician's dinner, help them program their video recorders and magically protect them 24/7. This issue, sociologist Kay O'Chamber reports on servitors who are "created" for a particular job then cruelly forgotten. She writes:

After a long, and frankly depressing ritual, I was able to establish communication with a servitor who prefers to be known as "Kevin" (he announced this by aerosolling his name across my front door). Kevin was created to break up a marriage in 1998 and hasn't had a job since. "There's just nowt to do all day" he told me - "most of the time me and my mates just hang around on the lower astral, sniffing geburah". (And sephiroth abuse is certainly on the increase amongst unemployed servitors). "A couple of us moved into a squat, but a Catholic priest came around and moved us on. I did get sent on a Young Teratomas Scheme (a servitor retraining scheme set up by the Inner-Planes Masters) but it was all really boring stuff about divining the fate of kings. I wanted to do the computer hacking course but they said my creator wasn't evolved enough". (continues p94)

The Ghost of Tom Winter

05:58 / 01.02.07

That made me laugh a lot trouser the trouserian.

I think why some people have beef with ethical treatment of servitors is because they're called servitors. Which denotes servitude. Once you get past the word and look at what it actually describes there's nothing to aid the argument of enslavement.

23:55 / 01.02.07

It's a big "if" - a gargantun one IMO, and until someone posts something taken from their own direct experience (ah, those golden words) indicating that servitors aren't anything more than ideas and beliefs dressed up (or jizzed up, possibly) - and furthermore, posts evidence again from TODE, that establishes these entites that they are actually suffering....

Don't know what TODE is, but I wanted to point something out:

There's two sides to this. One is a matter of experience, yes, but the other is a matter of definition. If I have something in front of me that I created that demonstrates sentience etc. is it a Servitor or is it something else? Unless that question is answered, there is no clear way to be certainly anyone's experience is even applicable.

--Ember--

07:12 / 02.02.07

Ember:

TODE = their own direct experience

If I have something in front of me that I created that demonstrates sentience

Have you ever done this? What's your evidence? How do you know you're not not just fooling yourself?

The whole definition thing is a dead issue as far as I'm concerned. Who cares if it's called a servitor or not - it's just a phrase someone slung together because they thought it sounded cool.

And, as I think in this discussion shows, it obscures more than illuminates.

07:17 / 02.02.07

Oh, and:

Unless that question is answered, there is no clear way to be certainly anyone's experience is even applicable.

I don't understand what your saying here. I have seen occultist deleude and bullshit themselves time and time again, parroting dogmas and fantasies. The only way out of this as far as I'm concerned is to think honestly and critically about your own experience.

Why are you saying this isn't relevant?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:25 / 04.11.11

Classix

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