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From tiny thought-forms massive gods do grow ... maybe

 
  

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trouser the trouserian
07:12 / 14.10.03
Hi y'all.
I just got given a book Creating Magickal Entities: (A Complete Guide to Entity Creation) and whilst skimming the introductory chapters, found the following:

"Many gods and goddesses came into being as thought-forms personified. This allowed humans to interact with and interpret cause and effect in the world in which they lived. Often these fledgling thought-forms were slowly transformed into the gods and goddesses that we know today by the general acceptance of the attributes given to events. As more people adopted those understandings of the events as actions of "things greater than themselves," the thought-forms gained momentum and energy from the people that understood them. Over time, a single thought had transformed from one person's way of understanding the world, to what are now considered some of the most powerful gods, goddesses, demons and spirits."

The way I read this is that gods & goddesses started off as simple thought-forms, then 'evolved' over time, so that someone conceives of a thought-form, then it's just a matter of add time and x number of people believing in them and you've got a god or goddess. Maybe its just me, but this 'explanation' of the magical origin of gods/goddesses strikes me as overly simplistic, so I wonder what other 'lithers perspectives on this subject are?
 
 
MrCoffeeBean
07:28 / 14.10.03
it is simple as that... or maybe its complicated as that.

theres no end to the possibilities!
 
 
Quantum
08:21 / 14.10.03
I think it takes more than one person's thought to seed a god. The things people care about (sex, death, crops, natural disaster etc.) get gods attributed to them in every culture, there aren't many gods of shoes (for example).
It's possible a thoughtform could become a god in the same way I suppose a magician could become a deity (e.g. Hermes Trismegistus) but it is simplistic to think all gods come about in the same way.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:50 / 14.10.03
I agree Quantum. I've thought for a long time that one of the distinguishing features of gods/goddeses as opposed to say, thought-forms is that the former have complex personalities .. histories, myths, stories, etc. .. and to varying degrees, they are as least as complex as human beings (if not more so) ... they reflect us. We see aspects of ourselves in them. There's a richness of experience there which I just don't associate with simple thought-forms.
 
 
illmatic
09:07 / 14.10.03
The first thing that comes to mind for me here is the sweep of history which the Gods embody, and the range of differing experience that people have brought to that. They are too broad to be merely thought forms, as in a sense, they are a collective thought form of thousands of years and millennia of different people’s experience and ideas that are added to and recreated every generation. For instance I’ve read somewhere that Ganesh originated as a crop fertility deity (which perhaps relates to the idea of rat as his vehicle, nibbling away at the grain) in turn he becomes an a deity for little known Hindu tantik cults, takes on a Tibetan Buddhist form and becomes a deity bloved of Indian shopkeepers everywhere. Drawing on this richness is part of the power of working with a God – the sense of something larger than yourself.
 
 
Seth
09:30 / 14.10.03
Playing Devil's Advocate for a second: let's take the Christian Divinity, an extremely complex God. The Old Testament God could be seen as an anthropomorphism of all natural forces, which is why his worshippers do not necessarily see contradiction between his merciless, warlike commands and loving, nuturing qualities. People add their voices, their interpretations, their mystic encounters to the mix, and the God is described in a vast number of different ways, myriad unique names, a process like the wrapping of an invisible object in order to see its perimeter.

Theologians and politicians arrive to discuss which interpretations are kosher, by this time a world wide religion has formed around the ideas, discussed and interacted with by people who have not contributed directly to the body of existing scripture. There are many splinter groups and cults, one of which captures the popular imagination more than others, and conception of God-as-love is liberated from the God-as-nature. Cue the same process over again, the contributions of scholars, mystic, laypeople, theologians, politicians.

Several thousand years have passed, and the object at the centre of this linguistic wrapping paper has taken on a highly complex form of its own, not the result of one person's thought simply bolstered by others beliefs, but the creation of countless people who have all participated in a relationship with the divinity - the product of too many minds to count. That's not inconceivable, and although the process is simple it's also rich in depth and variety.

The middle ground is that the above process occurs, but the ideas are all projections onto a force which has existence in its own right. The force seems particularly responsive to anthropomorphism, it wears different masks well, and displays different characteristics at time (the Dion Fortune illustration of water behaving in different ways in clouds, in rapids, in an underground river, in the sea, in a cup). As the force manifests in different ways, we have different means of describing it; Father; Son; Spirit; Kether through Malkuth; Commander of the Armies of the Lord; Paraclete; Son of Man, ad infinitum.

Or the deities are pre-existent, and we are attempting to describe beings that have been around longer than humanity in some cases (but not all). These three are not exhaustive, but you can see how the ancestor-become-divine might follow a similar process. There seems to be a trend towards the first explanation in modern practitioners, probably because the idea that we're solely responsible for the creation of the Gods appeals to some control-freak aspect of their identity. It bolsters their ego to believe that they can make and unmake pantheons. The control myth is a pretty seductive illusion.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:52 / 14.10.03
The first thing that comes to mind for me here is the sweep of history which the Gods embody...

Yeah, that's what I was trying to put into words, Illmatic. Gods like Ganesha have evolved over thousands of years, and become very complex. And I feel there's all kinds of cultural/social factors that have to be taken into account too. Just how did an agricultural deity end up venerated in shops all over the world? I can't help thinking that there's more to it than x number of people directing 'energy'/'belief' over time into a simple thought-form. I picked up the book mentioned above at a fantasy convention where some people were pushing this "thought-forms becoming gods" idea (didn't challenge it at the time as I wanted to reflect on it rather than just jumping up and saying "I disagree!") and they were taking the view that person x creates a thought-form, and all it takes is y number of people to believe in it (and feed it 'energy') then it takes on an independent existence from its creators and anyone can tap into it and somehow connect to it's 'essential' character. And I have to say that I think that's too 'simplistic' an explanation of what's going on as well.

Reflecting on this brought to mind a memory of doing some evocations using the Lesser Key of Solomon with a friend a few years ago. We'd evoked Glasyalabolas into a triangle and were talking back and forth what our perceptions of 'it' were - which didn't really resemble the description in the grimoire but kind of had a commonality with it - and equally there was some kind of commonality of our perceptions, and I feel that although we had 'similar' perceptions, they weren't exactly the same, and that we 'colluded' in various ways in interpreting our perception of the goetic spirit until it became a shared perception. So I guess what I'm trying to get to here is the view that if we share the same information about an entity (goddess, thought-form, etc.) then it's increasingly likely that we'll experience it in similar ways, but not exactly the same way - and our perceptions of same entity - heck even the way we approach it is going to be influenced by culture, language, knowledge - which okay, is perhaps more cumbersome a way of thinking about 'entities' than the idea that they're all floating around on the aetheric plane waiting to be tapped into and asked to deliver a pizza or whatever, but at least I'm trying to acknowledge the complexities involved. Making sense?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:06 / 14.10.03
the idea that we're solely responsible for the creation of the Gods appeals to some control-freak aspect of their identity. It bolsters their ego to believe that they can make and unmake pantheons. The control myth is a pretty seductive illusion.

Good point Seth (several in fact). One of the people I met at the convention I attended was saying "well the old gods are outmoded and we should create new ones". Like, instead of asking Pan to help with a shag spell, why not create a new god from popular culture? And this too has set me musing. Firstly (as discussed above) that it just ain't that simple - and secondly, that surely there's more to our relationships with gods than just 'asking them to do stuff for us'. This is reflective of a particular attitude towards gods & goddesses - that just sees them as representations of specific attributes, and not taking into account that there is possibly more to complex entities than can be fitted into the ubiquitous magical A-Z of 'correspondence' listings of deities that seem to abound on the net and in occult texts.

The control myth is a pretty seductive illusion.
Yeah, this whole We create our own reality belief is really prelevant. And I tend to think, well sure, I can 'affect' certain elements of my reality. I can shape bits of it, but all of it? Can't recall having to create digital watches, the post office or globalisation, for that matter. Okay, being silly here, but that's what saying We create our own reality implies at some stage, IMO. And there's also a kind of implied elitism here - "We" (magicians in general/people in the room/on the board - the gang present in other words) of course create our own reality, but them out there (the masses, etc.) of course don't. Or maybe create 'poor' realities. I wonder if this "we create our own reality" belief is a very privileged one, borne out of a culture which values individual self-determination and provides us with powerful technologies (and social freedoms) for affecting some aspects of our reality - to the extent that we can have this seductive illusion of total control and safely ignore how the greater part of "reality" is shaped by 'forces' external to ourselves, over which we have very little control, as has been recently been nicely demonstrated by Messrs Bush, Blair & co.
 
 
macrophage
13:32 / 14.10.03
I've been thinking of trying to incubate thought-forms in specially made pyramids for specific purposes - do you think an orgoneaccumulator-pyramid would be good????!!!! Years ago I made up lots of godforms and godforms based on postmodern culture, I haven't went back to them for ages. But I spread the meme around for quite a while to close friends. I think some original gods and godesses may have came to certain people either through dreams or either through lucid intense visual astral visions a long long long time ago, and 'belief' and the 'meme' has energised it from second to second.
Course - I almost forgot near-death experiences and taking 'strange' substances (knowingly or unknowningly!!!!). But I gave up on 'stoopid' godforms for the present 'til the next time!!!!!!!!! Archeypes - we love them. But hey - what does stoopid mean????????
 
 
macrophage
13:32 / 14.10.03
I've been thinking of trying to incubate thought-forms in specially made pyramids for specific purposes - do you think an orgoneaccumulator-pyramid would be good????!!!! Years ago I made up lots of godforms and godessforms based on postmodern culture, I haven't went back to them for ages. But I spread the meme around for quite a while to close friends. I think some original gods and godesses may have came to certain people either through dreams or either through lucid intense visual astral visions a long long long time ago, and 'belief' and the 'meme' has energised it from second to second.
Course - I almost forgot near-death experiences and taking 'strange' substances (knowingly or unknowningly!!!!). But I gave up on 'stoopid' godforms for the present 'til the next time!!!!!!!!! Archeypes - we love them. But hey - what does stoopid mean????????
 
 
Quantum
13:59 / 14.10.03
Here's an example- Batman compared to Bacchus (or Baldur or whoever you like). Batman is a thought form dreamt up by Bob Kane, which has accreted beliefs and views over the decades to become the Batman we know today, independant of the original. As in the example of Ganesh, he's been through changes (60's camp batman, 80's Dark Knight) but remains recognisably the same, although grown in power and influence. Classic thoughtform.
Not so Bacchus. Although similar in many ways to a thoughtform, he has the weight of history behind him (Gods are almost always old, thoughtforms young) and his origin isn't one person deliberately making something up, it's from people trying to explain the world. Nobody thought 'Oh I'll make a god of wine and revelry' like Bob Kane thought 'Oh I think I'll make a superhero who's a bat'.

What I'm saying is Gods are more real, not just because they are older and embody 'bigger' concepts, but because they were found not made. Whether that's because they were already there, or because we didn't used to have a patina of postmodernism over all our beliefs is up to you. Gods are an explanation, thoughtforms are an invention IMO.

About the 'We create our own reality' belief- the control myth is a seductive illusion, but the idea that we create our own reality is different. It's not as though you are telling yourself a story as you go along and that's reality, it's more you are wearing coloured spectacles so your reality is coloured.
Think of Kant's 'Conceptual spectacles' that frame things like space and time, we project these things onto the world of sense data (we learn to do this sort of thing as babies) and fool ourselves into thinking it's objective. I create my own reality in the sense that I am a happy person, or I have horrible parents, or I am lucky etc. not so much that I create and sustain the universe like God, and have to worry about digital watches etc.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:12 / 14.10.03
On the subject of "creating" Gods... I think it's a combination of the thought-form seed along with a healthy dose of "just-so" stories grounded in basic anthropomorphism - They appear to be complex and have all-too-human desires because that's what we (and our ancestors) know.

I wonder if this "we create our own reality" belief is a very privileged one.

Absolutely! Especially if you're talking about individuals and personal experience...

But, don't forget, we're all a part of the "them out there" as well... We participate in mass culture and are affected by it. (How many Buffy fans are reading this? Raise your left hand...) A better way of looking at the process might be to call it "cooperating in a concensus reality." The fact that this sort of phrase is rarely used reinforces the myths of independance and self-determination... which tie directly into "I'm just one person and can't do shit against the "external forces" and government and pollution..." (...and any of the other problems facing the planet as a whole....)

Anybody up for spreading myths of cooperation and interdependance?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:25 / 14.10.03
Quantum
Batman vs. Bacchus - excellent example! And I like your distinction between gods & thought-forms. Again, there were people at the convention talking about new 'gods' arising from fiction - partly from people writing fanfiction and partly from people making the conscious decision to treat those 'fictional' forms as magical entities. No problem with that really.

I create my own reality in the sense that I am a happy person, or I have horrible parents, or I am lucky etc. not so much that I create and sustain the universe like God, and have to worry about digital watches etc.

Yeah, agreed. Went on a bit of a rant, earlier.
 
 
Quantum
15:04 / 14.10.03
A better way of looking at the process might be to call it "cooperating in a concensus reality."
Yup, or as Heinlein called it Pan-Dimensional Multi-Personal Solipsism. I prefer the term consensual reality though, easier to say.
Anybody up for spreading myths of cooperation and interdependance?
Yes, I am. Not so much myths though as memes, everyone should be encouraging these things no matter what they think IMO.

I've heard a lot about exclusive mindsets in magic, but I haven't come across many magical elitists myself- unless I am one and just don't know it...

Can a god be born from fiction? 'Fictional' magickal entities like servitors or the avatar of Bilbo or whatever I think we can agree are real, but I don't think any of them could become Gods. The belief you have in Gek, say, is not the same as a fundamentalist's belief in God.
 
 
Quantum
15:10 / 14.10.03
Can anyone think of a god of the new? They'd be the god of the modern era I reckon, I think I'll have a look...
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:13 / 14.10.03
A better way of looking at the process might be to call it "cooperating in a concensus reality." The fact that this sort of phrase is rarely used reinforces the myths of independance and self-determination... Anybody up for spreading myths of cooperation and interdependance?

I really like this point, Iszabelle, if only as again it highlights one of the differences between gods & thought-forms. Thinking about it using Quantum's example: Batman - classic 'outsider' figure. Bacchus - god - part of a pantheon/cultural-mythic complex. Seems to me that a lot of 'myths' relating to gods & goddesses are about cooperation and interdependance. or at least gods interacting with each other (or with other beings) in a variety of ways (fighting, fucking, falling out, whatever) which doesn't tend to be the case with thought-forms. I've often created servitors and then passed on the 'image' as it were, for others to use (or created servitors in cahoots with other magicians) but yeah, as Quantum sez:
The belief you have in Gek, say, is not the same as a fundamentalist's belief in God.

i.e. I can quite happily accept a relationship with a servitor on the level of I do things for it, it does things for me, but that's not quite the same quality as a relationship with a god/goddess.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:11 / 14.10.03
Speaking of Gek, funny you should mention him, since my new roommate just said he saw a tiny gecko running up and down my walls in our apartment a few nights ago. He just told me this morning. I've lived there for 7 1/2 years and never seen anything on the walls except the occassional roach or two. I think someone is visiting my humble abode.... And this new roommate knows nothing about Gek, by the way.
 
 
MrCoffeeBean
20:27 / 14.10.03
just a idea, what about avatars? same god, different avatars... maybe us magicians can, actualy i do, invent/create/find a new avatar of a old God? I supriced no one mentioned that one yet...

creating/changing reality - everybody do that all the time. Magicians just do it in a different way than others.


i have this not so good feeling about youre ideas on gods... sounds a bit too much like religion... Theres a big difference between religion and magick. Religion is obeying a God, magick are more of a dialog.

BTW, youre not Z kids are you?
 
 
Quantum
08:53 / 15.10.03
Theres a big difference between religion and magick. Religion is obeying a God, magick are more of a dialog.
Not that big a difference. As you say, magicians are less into obeying, but it's been said magic is a religion of one.

I agree with Absence of Gravitas, I think Gods are more likely to come in pantheons, servitors and thoughtforms usually operate on their own. It's possible they all get together in the ether and hang out in a thoughtform clubhouse eating cookies, living their own lives and just popping down to earth when called, but I don't think so.

Rather than compare thoughtforms with gods, how about a comparison with Angels and the like, subservient spirits more on a par with a human mage?
 
 
pachinko droog
16:17 / 15.10.03
Like "bobbing for archetypes"?
 
 
Seth
17:24 / 15.10.03
Religion is obeying a God, magick are more of a dialog.

I'm religious (although I'm not currently part of any religious movement, that may well change in the near future). My relationship with my God definitely fits the dialogue description. It's not all one way, either: I get loads of the stuff that I ask for. It's pretty rare that I get asked for anything, and when I am it's usually something that I agree with and would want to be doing anyway. Pretty good deal, I reckon.

I can't really see a thick dividing line between religion and magic. That's probably a subject for another thread, though (I'll join you there if you start one) - unless we're sepcifically talking about the subject in relation to Gods and Goddesses.
 
 
macrophage
12:04 / 16.10.03
Organised religion has ruined alot of spirituality - but I don't think there's owt wrong with invocations for yer gods or litanies or whatever...... I've always respected Crowleyan litanies - I've wrote specific litanies that months on I just think are not worthy for a godform, but then that's over-criticism I suppose?! I'm more into a 'practical approach' as opposed to the ceremonial way but I'll always have a special place for KHONSU - after all experimentaion and practise makes experience!!!! Anyway who plays Virtua Fighter here - what's the name of the geriatric warrior, he looks like a taoist to me!!!!!!!
 
 
Ticker
13:32 / 12.09.06
I've had my archaeology hat and reading specs on for a while now cross ref various scholarly articles on a variety of Neolithic megalithic sites of worship and the traits of the resident Deities.

I'm curious about the overlap and separation in the personalities of ancient Deities and how other folks perceive these lines. I'm currently reading an excellent article on the sacred lake of Persephone in Sicily and the archaeological evidence of "a Goddess' cult" before the Greek Demeter/Persephone cult appeared in the area. It's a slice of time when the hunter gather neolithic shifted into the agricultural and how the introduction of grain farming changed the local Goddess. Did one Goddess get replaced by another pair, did She simply evolve to acquire new qualities, and so on.

How do other folks view these shifts in the Gods' personalities/natures versus mergers and out right replacements? In the upthread example of Ganesh you have a tradition where one God has a personal history and can be seen as adaptive. Contrast that evolution with the Irish Goddess Bridget and the later St. Bridget where some modern scholars are saying They are distinct enough not to be automaticly synomous as the same Being. ( to break this contrast down I'd offer that one could converse with the modern Ganesh and ref His older aspect without giving offense however some Catholics claim St. Bridget would be offended to be assumed to be the same Being as the older Goddess)

I'm going to take a step further and bring up the issue of Archetypes. The below PDF Ev KG was kind enough to post over in the Stupid Magick thread is a great article on the way Gods and Archetypes interact.

Lion&Serpent PDF

I'm a-wondering when Gods get matched up with Archetypes how it affects Their over all personality. Is it akin to just getting a new job and if so how does the new position affect the older ones?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:50 / 13.09.06
If you're considering the relationship (if any) between deities and Jung's concept of Archetypes (quite different, btw, from Plato's use of the term - at least in Jung's later writings) it may be useful to bring in Jung's distinction between archetypes and archetypal images. In Four Archetypes Jung makes the following distinction:

The archetype is not defined by the content of any one manifestation nor even by the accrued total of all its manifestations. Archetypes are apolitical; archetypal images are political; archetypes are not ideological; archetypal images are located within ideologies.

So Archetypes are unknowable and can be only 'known' through their footprints - i.e. the 'nature' of an archetype can only be discerned through an overview of all of its representations - they cannot be neatly circumscribed. In Collected Works Jung writes:

The term 'archetype' is often misunderstood as meaning a certain definite mythological image or motif…on the contrary, [it is] an inherited tendency of the human mind to form representations of mythological motifs—representations that vary a great deal without losing their basic pattern…

If I'm following Jung correctly here, it's the archetypes (as universal structure-forming elements) which give rise to the archetypal images that dominate both individual fantasy life and cultural mythologies. It's these images and objects (Jung focused on the Mandala as an archetypal object) which are personally/culturally situated wherein he would probably locate the various gods & goddesses.
 
 
Quantum
09:18 / 13.09.06
That's my understanding of Jung, although it does resemble Plato's theory of Forms rather a lot- the real world as a shadow of a noumenal world beyond, the various images of the Wise Old Man echoing that archetype. Merlin and Obi-Wan are instances, but we could never meet the old man himself. To quote wikipedia "archetypes are innate, universal prototypes for ideas" not the ideas themselves.

I tend to think of gods that way, the images and ideas we worship as the footprints of the actual gods who are too big to fit completely in a human mind, like trying to grasp infinity or how small a quark is.
 
 
Ticker
13:10 / 13.09.06
I'm going to attempt and see if I can use the distinctions correctly. Please point it out if I am not doing so.

I like the author of the PDF article use of Jungian Archetypes and the clear example given regarding the Archetype of Magician as it becomes Archetypal in Hermes the Magician. In the example Hermes is a Deity who manifests multiple Archetypal traits and can expand to include more.

I believe Archetypes resonate through Deities (and everybody else for that matter) yet I'm curious and how this expantion or contraction of roles affects the Deity over a long period of time.

If a particular Deity ceases to resonate with an Archetype ( for example is Hermes still an ithyphallic God?) how does that effect the Deity's overall function? What happens when an Archetypal manifestation of a Deity waxes to the point of eclipsing the other aspects?

On a slightly different track what happens when two distinct Deities that resonate with an Archetype become merged through syncretion?
 
 
Quantum
15:00 / 13.09.06
It's difficult to tell. To run with the Hermes example;

"The name Hermes has been thought to be derived from the Greek word herma which denotes a square or rectangular pillar with the head of Hermes (usually with a beard) adorning the top of the pillar, and male genitals below; however, due to the god's attestation in the Mycenaean pantheon, as Hermes Araoia ("Ram Hermes") in Linear B inscriptions at Pylos and Mycenaean Knossos (Ventris and Chadwick), the connection is more likely to have moved the opposite way, from deity to pillar representations. From the subsequent association of these cairns — which were used in Athens to ward off evil and also as road and boundary markers all over Greece — Hermes acquired patronage over land travel."

In modern times though, interaction with the gods is very different and seemingly more varied. IMHO Herme's ithyphallic tendencies have diminished as his dominion over communication has increased, but my understanding of him might be very local and idiosyncratic as I'm not a part of a congregation or community of worshippers as the ancients would have been.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
15:42 / 13.09.06
Religion is obeying a God, magick are more of a dialog.
That implies magick is "better" than religion, doesn't it? That the magician and the god are on some kind of even footing.

Personally, I prefer this comparison: if religions were languages, magick would be linguistics.

The entire Gods are born from fetal thought-forms reminds me a lot of the view of gods presented in Gaiman's fantasy work (Specifically SANDMAN, AMERICAN GODS and ANANSI BOYS).

What about the idea that the gods, heroes and characters from mythology are based upon actual events that happened in prehistoric times (and even into historic times) and over centuries of telling have been extremely modified as a part of a culture's everchanging psychological make-up?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:52 / 13.09.06
is Hermes still an ithyphallic God?

Well, Hermes is termed "Ithyphallic" primarily due to his association with the Hermea which were for the most part used for boundary demarcation. I suppose one might argue, from a broad Jungian p.o.v, that Hermes is thus associated with transgression of boundaries - which might fit into him being regarded as a trickster/thief - hence the epithet Polytropos ("wily/shifty").

As to whether or not this particular aspect of Hermes' worship has diminished or not, it's probably impossible to say one way or another.
 
 
Quantum
15:53 / 13.09.06
I spit on Gaiman's view of Gods, *ptui*.

More Hermes fun facts;
Originally, Hermes was depicted as an older, bearded, phallic god, but in the 6th century BCE, the traditional Hermes was reimagined as an athletic youth (wikipedia again)
So the loss of the phallic association seems to have been ages ago during a period where he was still 'mainstream' and worshipped by many. At the moment he seems to be losing his association with sailing and stealing and shepherds but gaining association with information and all modern communication.
 
 
Quantum
15:57 / 13.09.06
As to whether or not this particular aspect of Hermes' worship has diminished or not, it's probably impossible to say one way or another.

You could argue that the birth of Hermes' son Priapus marked an evolution such as xk is talking about, with Priapus taking over responsibility for nobs and Hermes losing it.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
17:52 / 13.09.06
Originally, Hermes was depicted as an older, bearded, phallic god, but in the 6th century BCE, the traditional Hermes was reimagined as an athletic youth

Wasn't Jesus depicted as a young boy in early icons and then, in later European art, he was depicted as a bearded man (representing a king)?
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
18:24 / 13.09.06
What about the idea that the gods, heroes and characters from mythology are based upon actual events that happened in prehistoric times (and even into historic times) and over centuries of telling have been extremely modified as a part of a culture's everchanging psychological make-up?


I don’t have time to give a full post, I’ll expand later if there is interest.

But I agree partly with Henningjohnathan, if you take a look at older religions they are mostly ancestral, from the African religions, to eastern and even early western religions. Taking that into account, it is very possible to see how the rise of an ancestor, through his tasks and the passing down of his traditions and the protections he gave, can elevate an ancestor’s spirit to that of a god.
Prime example lies within the Orisha religion. Many tribes who follow Orisha have a grand many ancestors that protect their villages, but most abide by a pantheon of gods and hierarchy.
So too can be seen with the Greeks. I’m thinking of one mortal man who became a god, Hercules. It could very well be possible that the Greek gods rose out of city states favoring these ancestors and were then passed to the neighbors around.

I’ll try to add more when I have time. But that’s just for thought.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:36 / 13.09.06
That's pretty much what I'm thinking. There are common psychological themes inherent to human physiology and to separate cultures. I think that though it is possible that these psycho-physio emotional forces could generate the storylines of the myths, it seems more likely that an actual event would provide focus for these forces in a culture.

There is a book called something like GOD A BIOGRAPHY that looks at the development of Yahweh from a sort of personal spirit with Abraham and becoming the God of the Jews (and eventually Christians and Muslims).

In the begining (in a more mundane sense), maybe Abraham really talked to some spiritual being or maybe he has some sort of schizophrenic (bicameral), epileptic episode that correlated with events going on at the time and his family simply incorporated them to make sense of what could be a traumatic experience. It seems likely to me that life was as stressful and filled with mental disorders back then as now and that myth, stories of demons and angels, gods and so forth, as well as mystic rituals would be a big part of the way people coped with the stress they encountered. Religion resulting as a "story" to make sense out of chaotic behavior.

As mircae eliade wrote, it doesn't take very long for an unusual event to be turned into an extraordinary myth. Now I'm not saying that Judaism is the result of some sort of schizophrenic trait passed on genetically through the centuries (though that is an interesting idea) but it seems possible that the effectiveness of the myths and the faiths that they spawn (including theistic beliefs) would be more directly incorporated into a culture's experience if it began with an actual event and an actual person at the center of that story.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
23:19 / 13.09.06
Well, if you notice, at one point in Genesis, I forget the context, but it basically says "The God of Abraham" not anyone else’s god, it was Abraham’s god. This of course could be the ancestors that Abraham worshipped. Couple this with the fact that a good deal of genesis deals with begetting, one might have a compelling argument that Judaism arose as an ancestor’s religion.

p.s. I love the idea of a Judaic-schizo gene.
 
  

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