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The Problem with Adbusters

 
  

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diz
13:03 / 31.12.03
I'm not totally convinced that the world we live in now is as unnatural and wrong as some people would like to believe

i don't think so either, exactly, though my two major concerns here is that the Spectacle fuels itself with cheap exploited labor in the underdeveloped world and requires a mass consumerism which doesn't seem entirely separable from massive ecological devestation. i'm OK with the Spectacle as such, and i think more and more radicals are as well (i mean, what's the alternative - fetishing some imaginary "authenticity" which is just recouped by the Spectacle anyway?), but i'm less sanguine about the human and environmental costs.
 
 
gingerbop
13:42 / 31.12.03
Now... I have a vague problem with why Starbucks is up there. It doesnt seem too bad- ok, they use a fair few plastic cups, but apart from that- why's it that bad? They treat their staff well, use fair trade coffee... whys it up there with Macdonalds and Nike? Just cause its global, and global is baaaaddddd?
 
 
rizla mission
16:16 / 31.12.03
I think the orginal grudge against Starbucks comes largely from their policy of deliberately shutting down / buying out independent shops and such like in a rather ruthless attempt to grab as big a proportion of the coffee market as they possibly can.

Do correct me if that's inaccurate.. their presence is relatively low-key in the UK, but I've frequently read/heard Americans complaining along the lines of "this town used to be full of [insert good things here], and now there's just 8 branches of Starbucks!" and so on.

Of course, the most annoying thing about Starbucks is that it's actually really good.. the seats are comfortable, the coffee's great, the food's brilliant, and yet you feel like a complete shit for wanting to go there. I mean.. the bastards!
 
 
diz
16:37 / 31.12.03
I think the orginal grudge against Starbucks comes largely from their policy of deliberately shutting down / buying out independent shops and such like in a rather ruthless attempt to grab as big a proportion of the coffee market as they possibly can.

that's been the standard complaint, yes. however, it seems that the effect is exactly the opposite. rather than stealing business from independent coffeeshops, it seems to have driven up overall business levels for both independent coffeeshops as well as for Starbucks branches. it seems that on average, coffeeshops located near Starbuckses have actually seen increases since Starbucks moved in. strange, but true.

also, a lot of people bitch because, at least in the US, they're fucking everywhere. i used to live near a particular four-way intersection. on one corner, there was a Barnes and Noble with a Starbucks inside. on the second corner, there was a Starbucks, and there was a grocery store with a Starbucks inside. on the third corner, there was a Starbucks, and another grocery store which i think may have also had a Starbucks. on the fourth corner, there is, as yet, no Starbucks at all.

that's just that corner. there at least two or three more down the steet.
 
 
Doctor Singapore
22:57 / 31.12.03
Stop me if somebody has made this point, but...

Of course Adbusters focuses on design over content, takes a shallow approach to the issues, etc---because that is the nature of the beast: visual advertising itself.

Does anybody remember seeing a book with a picture on the cover of a guy with a barcode tattooed on the back of his neck?
I don't remember the title or the author's name, but he (it was a he, I remember that much) is one of Adbuster's founders, and at some point in the book he stated that, since advertising tries to bypass rational thought and go straight to the viewer's emotions, Adbusters set out to do the same -- fighting fire with fire, basically.

In fact, the entire organizing philosophy and purpose of Adbusters is more or less summed up in a passage from Illuminatus!:

"Then I got a hunch, and turned quickly to the advertisements. it was as I expected: no fnords. That was part of the gimmick, too: only in consumption, endless consumption, could they escape the amorphous threat of the invisible fnords."

Make of that what you will...
 
 
gingerbop
22:58 / 31.12.03
Ok, then I would begin getting pissed off. But as it is, we have one starbucks in town, and one in a bookshop out of town. And I have no quibs with going to either of them.

I also think marketing is over-blamed as a source of all evil in the world. But it keeps our TV licenses down, so fuck it.
Happy noo years.
 
 
Jester
23:06 / 31.12.03
Starbucks has a massive presence in the UK - in London at least. More than in America, in my experience. In London there are other coffee shops, but they are mainly other chains of the Starbucks ilk. Small independant coffee shops are nearly impossible to find. I think people object to them on the basis that they are one of the most obvious examples of global BRANDS, rather than just global businesses.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:57 / 01.01.04
I think it is safe to say that Starbucks has a significant presence in central London, and a less significant presence elsewhere in the UK. There are 362 Starbucks in the UK, against 5,118 in the US, so the concentration outside the capital is likely to be significantly lower.

However, considering Starbucks as a brand, one could identify that Starbucks generally expands only in areas where it can expand massively - that is, open many franchises simultaneously or in very short order within close proximity to each other, thus establishing a clear advantage in brand real estate. It also has a habit of buying up potential competitors - a very good example of this is in Seattle, which I will come back to shortly. Dizfactor's claim, that rather than stealing business from independent coffeeshops, it seems to have driven up overall business levels for both independent coffeeshops as well as for Starbucks branches, I'm afraid I simply can't accept without some substantiation. If your coffee shop has been bought out and converted into a Starbucks, I don't see how you can sell more non-Starbucks coffee.

However, branding and cannibalisation. The aforementoned Starbucks in Seattle was previously a legendary goth hangout, before it was bought out by Starbucks. In an effort to retain the spirit of the place, the workers at that particualr branch are all allowed to wear the black apron normally only worn by the senior barista. It's a fascinating attempt to create a sort of comfort zone through very small but significant brand manipulation. It's also barkingly cynical.

Starbucks is interesting also becasue the main victims of its practices seem to be people in the first world, either through the loss of the mom'n'pop business or having to drink piss-weak coffee; although it has yet, to my knowledge, to deliver on its stated aim to create an independent board to audit and advise on ethical practice, it pays reasonable prices for its coffee (although IIRC only one of its coffees is fairtrade, and you have to specify it when ordering - is that right?), which does make it, as a brand, differently flavoured to Nike or Nestlé, which is still being boycotted by some on the grounds that it kills babies and probably will be forevermore, no matter how many "we don't kill babies any more, honest" adverts it takes out.

To bring it back home, Adbusters has just targeted Nike, and is planning to sell an anti-Nike sneaker, made in a Korean factory Nike pulled out of when the workforce unionised. So, adbusters s going to be selling, in effect, branded goods, the brand values being a desire to express disapproval of Nike's employment practices. Thoughts?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:07 / 01.01.04
My thoughts? Almost no one is going to buy those shoes, and not necessarily because people LOVE Nike or anything like that. They are going to lose a LOT of money.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:12 / 01.01.04
Care to explain why? Is it, for example, because they are not presenting a compelling brand? Because Nike is not an assailable brand? Because fair trade is not fashionable? Is your opinion baased on your understanding of the market for sneakers, or your examination of the site, or both?

More generally, what does it mean for Adbusters to be creating and promoting product? Is this another level of critique, or does it make them a part of the cycle? The fact that, although they look like Converse, they are going to be perhaps half again as expensive may reflect the higher working costs of ethical production, but does it *only* reflect that? How does one distinguish?
 
 
rizla mission
18:30 / 01.01.04
Sad to say I agree with Metthew on the Blackspot Sneaker thing: it seems to be an initially good idea handled badly - according to the website, they intend to raise the money put the shoes into production by asking individuals to put down $60 in advance for a pair.. no mention is made of any plans for selling them wholesale to shops or distributors and there aren't even any real details of what the shoes are going to look like or be made out of..

As it seems highly unlikely that hundreds of thousands of people are going to decide "Yes! That sounds like a good idea!" given such a thoroughly dodgy sounding set-up, the likely outcome is either;

a)the shoes never get made and everybody loses their money
or
b)an insignificantly small number of shoes get made and it fails to evolve past the level of a mail order business for hardcore adbusters fans

(although obviously it would be lovely should my cynicism be proved wrong)
 
 
griffle
20:49 / 01.01.04
I thought that was his thesis... He seems to locate the problem starting around the time when human societies stopped being migratory.

shouldn't this be when 'some' human societies stopped being migratory?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:33 / 01.01.04
Well, Haus, who is going to buy this? Are they going to find many retailers who are going to stock these things? It'll probably sell to a couple hundred devoted "culture jammers," and that's about it. I can't imagine this being a profitable endeavor. At best, these shoes will be a cute novelty item and perhaps a sort of status symbol in some small circles.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:23 / 01.01.04
OK, so you think that the shoes will not sell. I don't really see that as relevant to the topic in itself. In fact, the sneakers themselves are not really the point, near as I can see - they are a device by which Phil Knight can be attacked. It hardly matters, really, if they exist or not. One could certainly construct quite an interesting discussion about the fact that this is an actual advertisement for an actual product, which subverts the Adbusters proposition, or question the usefulness of participating in a commercial system as a cultural critique of that commercial system. One could even ask whether one possible takeaway from this - that ethically-produced sneakers are expensive and hard to get hold of - outweighs the possible advantages. Unsupported opinions about how many sneakers are going to be sold aren't really engaging with the thread, however.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:04 / 01.01.04
So it's about a petty attack on Nike, and not an actual attempt to create a viable alternative? I don't think that simply producing the sneakers under more ethical circumstances is a relevant thing if the Adbusters sneakers aren't as available as the Nike items. The scale of the operation is a major factor, and making a point that willfully ignores that and other economic considerations just isn't very intelligent or rational. If it's just about annoying a huge corporation who have no incentive to care about what they are doing, then it's just a waste of time and energy as far as I'm concerned.
 
 
Jester
02:50 / 02.01.04
To bring it back home, Adbusters has just targeted Nike, and is planning to sell an anti-Nike sneaker, made in a Korean factory Nike pulled out of when the workforce unionised. So, adbusters s going to be selling, in effect, branded goods, the brand values being a desire to express disapproval of Nike's employment practices. Thoughts?

Personally I think the actual way in which the shoes are produced are much more important than the 'brand'. If Adbusters really does manage this, then all for the good. I would probably buy some if they weren't more expensive than I generally would pay for shoes. It is still a 'brand' though, you're right: in the same way that the Body Shop is a massive, massive brand. But it is marginally better to have a brand that engages in good business practices? I don't see how setting up a rival 'brand' does much to overcome the 'Spectacle'/consumerist/brand led culture. Now, why are the shoes so expensive? I presume because they are being produced in such small numbers? If all Adbusters is going to do is replace one brand with another, 'anti-brand'... I don't know. Is there any way to actually sell anything without engaging in this kind of thing? I don't know. Random, ill-organised thoughts

I thought that was his thesis... He seems to locate the problem starting around the time when human societies stopped being migratory.

shouldn't this be when 'some' human societies stopped being migratory?


Yes, that's right. Sorry, it's a little while...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:48 / 02.01.04
If it's just about annoying a huge corporation who have no incentive to care about what they are doing, then it's just a waste of time and energy as far as I'm concerned.

Dude, really, I understand what your opinion is. What I'm missing is the connective tissue that turns it into an argument. If satirising or criticising through stylistic mirroring is a waste of time and energy, then the entire Adbusters project is bankrupt. Since you are only talking about sneakers, I am forced to assume that there is something about the idea of these sneakers that makes it distinct from the rest of the Adbusters project. As far as I can tell, this is tied up with the impossibility of creating as many actual pairs of sneakers as Nike can - the level of physical presence. However, I'm not sure how that ties in with the communication of the message; presumably the business plan never assumed sales in the millions, and I'm not sure what woudl have been gained if Adbusters had, say, signed a franchise deal with a major sneaker producer in order to keep costs low through bulk production and low-paid workers. TBH, I'm a bit lost as to what exactly is not "intelligent or rational" - Adbusters not being a global sneaker manufacturer, or simply the specific business model under which these sneakers are being produced?
 
 
No star here laces
11:07 / 02.01.04
I'd come at it from a different angle. The trouble with producing anti-nike sneakers is that for it to be an effective comment, and also an effective business proposition, the sneakers have to be as good as Nikes in every way, with the additional advantage of ethics. Rather than a piss-poor copy that is excusable by the fact it is ethical. Branding and brand strength is a quality of nike that ought to be matched by a competitor, and it is a factor intrinsically linked to amount of production.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:05 / 02.01.04
Ah-hah... thanks, Jefé. I think I am probably missing v. simple things due to an innocence of trainers, hence my perplexity. I do hope my ignorance of matters trainerish is not too onerous.

Since the things are being made by former Nike workers and look very much like Nikes (Converse?), it does seem that they are intended as effectively pound-for-pound Nike substitutes, which maybe surrenders the moral high ground. Also, it does give the impression, as Matthew seems to be saying, that ethical sneakers are goign to be harder to get and more expensive than Nike, neither of which *necessarily* has to be the case, presumably; that's a brand failing, and potentially a lesson for other competitors offering the ethical carrot. How much of a premium one can put on the feeling of doing the right thing is one of those very interesting brand questions - people will pay 20% more for Fairtrade coffee, but will they pay, say, 80% more for Fairtrade footwear?

Jester's question about whether in the first instance we need more brands, and in the second whether a brand representing good business practice is better than a brand not representing good business practice feeds into this in quite an interesting way. (I'd suggest that a business behaving well is more valuable than a brand representing good behaviour, but the two must overlap to some degree...)
 
 
gingerbop
21:12 / 02.01.04
Forget ethics and everything, and just imagine that their trainers become a massive, massive success, much as I doubt they would. What are Adbusters going to do, start killing each other or something? As much as they say its all about ethics and good vs bad business practices, a large part of their anti-starbucks etc thang is just 'booo, its big, its bad, its global, lets kill it.'

And until it did become a well known anti-nike brand, they're not going to make much of a statement about the wearer, that being probably much the plan. So what; they want to image of being a brand, while definately NOT being a brand. To get an image for their not-brand-brand, they'd have to advertise; And I will laugh when Adbusters make ads.

I think my thoughts are too randomly scattered, and I just cant quite get my head around it.
 
 
diz
07:13 / 03.01.04
Actually, this is Diz's Girlfriend, but I don't have an account and wanted to make a few comments, hopefully you don't mind.

Firstly, as to the original complaint about Adbusters having lots of gloss but not much actual information, wouldn't you consider this the most accurate imitation /subversion/ parody of actual advertising. Advertising generally has very little information about the actual product. If Adbusters is (at least on one level) a parody why should it be doing anything different?

I agree that Adbusters could possibly work as a more effective tool for social change if it had more information (though not at the expense of the gloss) but just because Adbusters could possibly do something different/more from what it does now doesn't mean that its current form doesn't hold value.

As to those who worried it was preaching to the choir, what's wrong with those who have some form of anti-corporate/anti-capital/etc. view having something sexy and cool to flip though while affirming their beliefs. God knows pro-capitalists get plenty of these opportunities.

Now about the shoes--I don't know if the shoes would sell or if the idea is anything but cheesy, but I think the big impetus behind the shoes was a response to seeing converse, part of the "standard" counter-culture uniform, bought by the anti-corporate anti-Christ Nike. I'm not sure if a lot more thought was put into the shoes, I think it was just a commentary on absurdity and irony.

The Haus of tiny shrews: You wanted some proof and explanation as to how Starbucks could increase business for local coffee shops. There's a Wall Street Journal article called "Despite Starbucks Jitters, Most Coffeehouses Thrive." (Sorry I couldn't link to it, I don't have a WSJ account.) I'm sorry I can't find more on the actual study as well, but it is referenced in that article so I'm sure you can find it. Despite the example you mentioned it is not Starbucks general practice to buy local coffee shops and convert them into Starbucks. (Not saying they haven't done it, it's just as common.) So when a Starbucks moves into a neighborhood they attract new business, people who were not already regular coffee drinkers. These people expand the market (dramatically) and are not necessarily loyal to starbucks, so when they crave their newly acceptable $4 cappuccino they just might walk into a local shop instead. Also after a Starbucks enters into a neighborhood there's a tendency for the local store to diversify what they sell, more choices of coffee or snacks or magazines or whatever, which tends to increase sales and profits. I know...it's counter-intuitive but it seems to have the numbers behind it, so I buy it.

The really big point that I think is important though is that the "blame" for all this globalization/ corporateisation stuff is thrown onto the companies and somewhat reflected on the consumers but in this weird fuzzy "you should know better" sort of way. The tendency to shop at chains is a result of asymmetrical knowledge in economic systems. (One party knows more than the other, usually the seller knows more than the buyer. So I could pay a buck for coffee at an unknown shop, and take a risk because I don't know what I'll get, or pay $2 at Starbucks for a guaranteed product.) If this is the expected way people behave in these systems maybe we should look to changing the system rather than asking people not to act that way.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:29 / 03.01.04
Thanks, not-actually-dizfactor. That has filled out some gaps in my knowledge (or shored up some peaks rising out of the marsh of my ignorance, depending on how you want to look at it) very well, and I see how the Starbucks/local coffee shop dynamic could work. It's rather like the opinion held by various friends of mine that Borders is not a massive threat to the other bookshops on Charing Cross Road, because ultimately borders is only frequented by people who *don't like books*. I guess the next question would be why does the arrival of Starbucks into a neighbourhood increase the number of people drinking coffee, and why, if only the arrival of Starbucks has them drinking coffee, do they want to move to other coffee shops? I'll try to dig out the article, but I do hear the gentle hum of spin here...

Meanwhile, back at the sneakers, I suppose the question remains whether the sneakers matter, or whether they are just a device for packaging the critique - a new spin on the joke advert. Since they *don't* exist at present, maybe they never will or never should, but this certainly got more coverage than another clever Absolut parody...

On to your last paragraph - lots of interesting stuff here. Whose responsibility is it to straighten this out, do you think? Can you be a big company and also be working to increase your customer's information and so unltimately freedom? Could that be a way, to take Gingerbop's point, for a big producer not to have to fall on itself if it was applying "Adbusters ethics"? Or does the process have to start from below?
 
 
Baz Auckland
11:32 / 04.01.04
Despite the example you mentioned it is not Starbucks general practice to buy local coffee shops and convert them into Starbucks. (Not saying they haven't done it, it's just as common.)

To counter the WSJ though, No Logo talks of how it is Starbucks policy to buy out the lease from at least one popular cafe in the area to have as the first store to open... again according to No Logo they tried this in Toronto but were caught trying this and suffered bad PR as a result (and that goth club was in Toronto as well, not Seattle. )

I think the WSJ article may be true in some cases, but when they open 130 stores within five years in a city, there's going to be some coffee shops going under. Especially when Starbucks seems to have a policy of opening up a shop next door or across the street from other cafes in the city...

There's an old thread of the evils of Starbucks here if anyone's interested...
 
 
alas
20:39 / 05.01.04
I also think marketing is over-blamed as a source of all evil in the world. But it keeps our TV licenses down, so fuck it.

The US/UK cultural divide is possibly rearing its apparently ugly head again. (If a divide can be said to have a head, that is.) In the US we have no TV licenses. I think if British people watched US television in the US most would be appalled. The American Association of Advertising Agencies (AAAA) and the Association of National Advertisers, Inc. (ANA) produce a yearly "Television Commercial Monitoring Report"' the most recent one I can find is 2002's, which covers 2001.

"The report showed that on average, non-program minutes reached an all-time high. Of the six dayparts monitored, three set clutter records-early morning (18:02 minutes per hour from 17:44 in 2000), daytime (20:57 in 2001 from 20:03 in 2000), and local news (17:10 from 17:05 in 2000). Although not at record levels for their dayparts, non-program minutes were also high for late night and network news. Prime boasted the only decrease-down to 16:08 from 16:17 last year, the lowest it's been since 1998. "

That is, almost 1/3 of all TV time in the US is ads. Not all at the end of the hour, like most British networks, but interrupting any program, any time. And this doesn't even touch product-placement which is hugely up from what it used to be.

Is that amount of advertising a problem in itself? Maybe not. But the number of commercial messages per day that the average american now sees is 3,600/day. There's a huge amount of talent and energy and resources in this culture being devoted to selling us more and more stuff.

When combined with our culture's not so latent puritanism, we're practically being programmed to be bulimic as consumers--to binge and purge and binge and purge and feel terrible about pursuing what we hope is happiness even as we know at some level that the stuff won't make us happier. And the ecological and economic effects of this kind of consumer-based culture cannot be separated from advertising, because advertising is a propoganda effort on behalf of that culture more massive than any propoganda effort ever before, in the history of humanity. Surely it deserves quite a bit of attention.

Being concerned about that effect I hope is not simply about a middle class aesthetic but a deep concern that it's so fundamentally unsustainable. And it does pull one away from the public sphere and public sphere solutions. And surely there's a loss of something like our basic humanity at some level.

Adbusters is a little piece, one small imperfect way, of responding to that culture--and it does so in a way that is creative and interesting. And I think, at least in the US, it's important to have lots of means to resist this shiny attractive but ultimately very destructive culture.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:37 / 05.01.04
That is, almost 1/3 of all TV time in the US is ads.

Oh what an INCREDIBLE inconvenience, given that the programming itself is free. Even in terms of basic cable, the programming is free - your bill is paying for the service of providing access to those channels. The cost for the programming and general overhead of running a tv network is still dependent greatly upon ad revenue. Do you have any ideas for alternative business models, other than perhaps state run programming and public tv?

Though a lot of advertising is manipulative and obnoxious, I don't see what the problem with advertising in general terms is - are you against people being informed about products and services? Is this a broad anticapitalist stance which holds any private business in contempt? Or is this just a contrived, pious excuse for whining about interuptions in your favorite programs?

I think it is a major flaw of the Adbusters position to dismiss all consumerism and advertising out of hand - it's not all "shiny things," and it's not always shallow and wasteful. More often than not, that's just smug, condescending moral grandstanding. The problem is corporate irresponsibility, and the solution has more to do with finding ways to regulate these companies so that they behave with respect to the economy and environment which they are part of, than with dismissing mainstream culture and the economy around it out of hand because you're not particularly invested in it.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:54 / 05.01.04
Let me come at this another way - if there's any hope for real change to happen in our lifetime, it will have to come with popular political support. This will never happen if activists are fixated on advertising, because it's a symptom and not the real problem, and more often than not the critique centers on an elitist dismissal of mainstream culture and lifestyles. This is TREMENDOUSLY alienating. You need that mainstream culture on your side to get the machine of change moving. It is far better to focus on the real problem - that corporations are not regulated well enough in the best interests of local communities, the environment, and their employees. But this is never going to happen if the opposition continues to be dominated by smug elitists who hold mainstream culture in contempt.
 
 
diz
17:56 / 06.01.04
(actually diz now, not diz's girlfriend)

Let me come at this another way - if there's any hope for real change to happen in our lifetime, it will have to come with popular political support.

i don't know if i believe this. in fact, i'm pretty sure i don't believe this. at least, not in the way you mean. more on this below.

This will never happen if activists are fixated on advertising, because it's a symptom and not the real problem,

i will mostly agree that advertising is a symptom, and not the problem. but it's also an opportunity, which is why i basically like Adbusters.

and more often than not the critique centers on an elitist dismissal of mainstream culture and lifestyles. This is TREMENDOUSLY alienating.

well, to a certain extent, this is understandable. there's a lot of romantic nostalgia and sentimental fondness on the Left for the basic virtue of Joe Sixpack, but, to be frank, that doesn't really bear out in real life too often. Joe Sixpack voted for Nixon, and Reagan, and probably will vote for Dubya in the fall. in general, Joe Sixpack has historically been lukewarm to hostile towards racial integration, and is currently no big fan of gay rights, either. in general, the working class has opposed environmental regulation and increasingly opposes any sort of social spending.

on a more personal level, and i know that a lot of people who are on the left are in my boat here, Joe Sixpack's kids were the ones kicking the crap out of us in the parking lot for having weird-looking hair when we were growing up. when i was in high school, and people in my little blue-collar town in Jersey threw shit at me from passing pickup trucks and screamed "FAGGOT!", it wasn't the country club set driving the truck. on some intellectual level, i feel a sense of solidarity with the working class, but in real life? come on.

in any case, it doesn't really matter, anyway, sorry to say.

You need that mainstream culture on your side to get the machine of change moving.

i don't believe that this is true. at least, not anymore. there may (and it's a big may) have been a brief period where direct mass populism was practical as a tool of political change in America and Europe, say from the mid 18th century to the mid-20th. that moment, if it ever really existed, is pretty much over.

more importantly, i don't believe that political change is something that is done, but rather something that happens, or, if you will, something that evolves. a society is nto a collection of rational individuals making decisions, it's an organism, and individual people are basically only cells. we are created by our society to a greater degree than we create it, and because we are created by the society we're raised into our ability to consciously reshape that society is drastically limited.

what we can do, and, really, this is all we can do in terms of political action, IMHO, is to nudge the environment in which the social organism evolves in the hopes that it will grow into the shape we've tried to lay out for it. probably the biggest way we do this is through technology (and i mean this in the broad sense), which creates needs, niches, and demands to which the host society reacts and into which the society shapes itself. a second way that we do this, intimately linked to the first, is by shaping the memetic environment, through the manipulation of language/symbols/media/ideas/whatever.

that's really about it as far as potential for social change goes, but both aspects are really powerful. however, neither really require the active consent of the majority of the people. shape the environment into which people grow, through manipulation of technology and memes, and those who don't fit into the world you shape will simply be selected out, and their children will have evolved to fit the niches molded for them.

you want to change society? develop technologies that force changes, dump friendly memes in the memepool whenever you can, and cross your fingers and wait for evolution. "the will of the people" is an illusion that there's no point chasing down.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:24 / 06.01.04
there's a lot of romantic nostalgia and sentimental fondness on the Left for the basic virtue of Joe Sixpack, but, to be frank, that doesn't really bear out in real life too often.. in general, Joe Sixpack has historically been lukewarm to hostile towards racial integration, and is currently no big fan of gay rights, either. in general, the working class has opposed environmental regulation and increasingly opposes any sort of social spending

Yeah, "Joe Sixpack" clearly is out there and is certainly not ever going to be a great friend to left-wing concepts, but I'm not at all buying the concept that "Joe Sixpack" is indicative of the contemporary American mainstream. There's a level of condescension there that's actually kind of horrifying to me. There's a broad spectrum to the middle class in this country that isn't much like "Joe Sixpack" at all.

This rampant belief that there's no way of getting things done politically is exactly what makes the contemporary American left so pathetic and impotent, and is what lets far right wing interests win every time. Frankly, the Left are a bunch of fucking lazy cowards who simply do not put in the time and effort that the Right does in terms of activism, lobbying, campaigning, and networking. People on the right have it figured out - they use the preexisting political system that we have to their favor simply by knowing how to use it and engaging with it. If people act reasonably and work hard at it, it is not so impossible to pass national and regional laws that favor the environment and economic fairness. This will never ever happen if the right people aren't voted into office because the wrong people are running for office and the political machine on the Left is fractured and refuses to work together and appeal to mainstream voters.

If we're going to continue to believe that there's no way to make changes in a system that is still designed to be accessable to the people (no matter how difficult it may seem these days), then yeah, the well-organized Right wing will continue to have its way, and things will get more and more fucked because there's no balance in mainstream contempory politics.

We're only as impotent as we believe we are, man.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:32 / 06.01.04
Christ dizfactor, if you really hate the working class so much why bother identifying as left-wing?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:41 / 06.01.04
I mean if anything, one of the big problems with "the Left" - and this ties in to the attitudes to popular culture that Matthew has mentioned, although I don't think it's quite as cut-and-dried as he's presented it, but that's a whole other thread (one I should start) - is that if you push your average self-professed radical on the subject of class, you get a barrage of reactionary rhetoric. We've seen this on Barbelith every time the issue comes up - people who would never dream of being openly racist are quite happy to rant on about "pikeys", "white trash", etc - and the situation presented is one in which the middle class are oppressed by the working class for their daring cultural innovation. Uh-huh. So yes, I'm sure you're right, I know you're right when you say that their are a lot of people who claim to be on the Left who share your contempt for "Joe Sixpack". There are a lot of people who claim to be on the Left who disown any culture that is genuinely popular. But these are not actually left-wing attitudes, for reasons which ought to be self-evident.
 
 
diz
19:28 / 06.01.04
But these are not actually left-wing attitudes, for reasons which ought to be self-evident.

i don't know if that's actually true. i think if one were to look honestly at it, the history of the left is dominated largely by middle-class intellectuals, bureaucrats/technocrats, and radicals who consider themselves to be the revolutionary vanguard. actual leftist populism and bottom-up leadership is really the exception, rather than the rule. if you look at the actual practice of leftism in history, rather than what people claimed to believe, leftist elitism is much more common than genuine populism. so when you say that elitism isn't "really" leftist, that's basically just buying the left's PR for itself. in reality, the left has always been about a bunch of intellectuals doing things "on behalf" of "the masses" whether or not it actually has anything to do with the expressed desires of said masses.

when i'm being honest with myself, i'm pretty squarely in that tradition, and i don't really have a problem with it.

i would like to believe that most people want to be free, but generally, they don't, and they couldn't handle it if they were. i would like to believe that most people know what's best for them, but generally, they don't.

i also don't believe it's impossible to have a society where the majority of people are active in the world around them and committed to the general well-being of the whole community and are intelligent and educated enough to figure out how to achieve that well-being. however, to get that, you need a culture that produces people who can live in that sort of culture.

the traditional culture of the industrial working class is not that sort of culture. it revolves around narrow self-interest defined largely by consumption of material goods, scarcity, obedience to centralized authority, punctuality, the nuclear family, physical labor, identity strongly rooted in physical location, etc etc etc. it has to, because those are the demands placed on it by working in an industrial society.

however, those traits are incompatible with the newly emerging economic and technological reality, which is rootless, decentralized, characterized by abundance rather than scarcity and flexibility in terms of familial and social structures, and based largely on intellectual/memetic capital rather than physical capital. the social organism which is evolving into the niches opened by these changes is likely to replace the industrial working class as thoroughly as it replaced the agrarian peasantry.

in other words, we are all just tendrils of multiple overlapping and interbred cultural organisms competing for dominance of the petri dish. all any of us can do is help replicate our "social DNA," so to speak. i don't share much "social DNA" with the working class. i do share "social DNA" with the left, because the left and the working class have seldom if ever really been on the same page anyway.

you might call it elitism, but it's really just a culture clash, and it's really not a problem unless you're bogged down with all this Enlightenment baggage about the inherent right to self-determination and free will and reason and democracy. none of those things exist outside of social construction, and are only necessary to the degree that they're useful in allowing one's own memes, one's own social organism, to thrive. that's all that's important. the rest is just an illusion.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:39 / 06.01.04
I think that the issue of pop culture is very key.

It doesn't matter how well-intentioned your politics are, if you're going to dismiss or insult pop culture, that's going to be an alienating thing that will mark you as an elitist and turn off a lot of people who vote based on personality and cultural values. (Which counts for a lot of people, for better or worse.)

Pop culture is a part of people's lives (and pop culture does include adverts and products), and it's not irrelevant and just "shiny things" that fill up some kind of "void" in their souls. There's a certain luddism and cultural conservatism that always seems to be present in a lot of left-wing critiques of the media and pop culture - this refusal to accept cultural changes as being an organic process indivicative of the desires of individuals en masse. I think there are too many people who are too eager to accept the myth that popular things are that way exclusively because they are "shoved down our throats" by evil corporations. Even in spite of megacorporations that dominate modes of distribution, any product fails or succeeds based on the will of the market, which is more democratic than many people give it credit.

So, people WANT Starbucks. People like McDonalds. People like Pepsi. People like Nascar. People like CSI. People like Justin Timberlake and 50 Cent. Finding a way to make the corporations behind these things more responsible does not have to involve putting down these things, because when you do that, you're putting down the majority of people who are fine with these things, and they will reject your politics as being extremist, even if they are not.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:58 / 06.01.04
Hoom. I'm not sure that pop culture and popular products are quitre the same thing (that is, Justin Timberlake is not quite the same thing as a MacDonald's hamburger). I'm fairly sure that the relationship between produyct and consumer is as simple is WANTING or LIKING - after all, fifty years ago people LIKED Dandelion and Burdock. Which is where advertising might come in. However, Matthew seems to me bang on when he says that telling people they can't have these things because they are stupid and you know better than they what they shoudl have access to seems an unlikely strategy (probably also worth mentioning that, if a member of this industrial working class we've heard so much about is out and about and feels a bit peckish, they are more likely to go into a MacDonald's than into a posh restaurant where they may not be served, have been told they do not belong in, and cannot afford).

I'm not sure that in every case these products can be made corporately responsible; for example, no amount of corporate responsibility is going to change the amount of land required to create x amount of hamburger beef as against an equivalent amount of vegetables or grain. However, that certainly doesn't invalidate the desire to make the producer of popular products (let's skip for a moment the question of whether they are cultural products or not) behave more responsibly, meaning that the end consumer gets to satisfy their desires without necessarily causing a chain of suffering and exploitation (arguably you'd have to retool the entire capitalist system to iron out those kinks, but let's just go with it for the moment).

So, Adbusters good, I gues, because it provides a forum in which producers can be subjected to critique and encouraged to behave more responsibly. Adbusters bad, however, because its readership are not going to be the people whose decision in numbers to adopt a particular popular product, so it has no real leverage (if the readers are in that posh restaurant, it doesn't really matter much whether they lean conceptually towards MacDonalds or Burger King, since they would never actually eat either, so why should either care what they think), and because there chosen mode of critique is to target the advertising, which locates the problem in representation rather than action. I think this is not necessarly a universal condemnation, but has to be context-sensitive.

For example, there's the mock Absolut advert where the bottle is drooping, the message being that drinking Absolut makes you impotent. Fair enough - it's saying that the allusive, highly-designed Absolut ads don't really tell you about the disadvantages of being pissed. But one could surely say that of all vodkas? Whereas an advert critical in intent of, say, Absolut's labour relations would be a different matter, although perhaps just as toothless if it ended up influencing no action. Then again, maybe the point is that the people who read Adbusters are likely to communciate information, to create a trickle-down. Butbut, that brings up all sorts of issues of information management - back to the Nestlé case, for example. Adbusters also bad becasue its contention is that the adverts are a way of fooling people, of distracting people, and thus satirising the adverts not only criticises not only the producers but also the perceived gullibility of the consumers.

So what's our ideal publication to put in the space vacated by the notional obliteration of Adbusters? Who would it appeal to, and what would it say?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:14 / 06.01.04
I'm not sure that pop culture and popular products are quitre the same thing (that is, Justin Timberlake is not quite the same thing as a MacDonald's hamburger).

Yeah, you're right about that. Maybe I should have put it "pop culture and mainstream lifestyle"?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:27 / 06.01.04
Or maybe "pop culture and the consumer items that are celebrated by or bankroll pop culture"? Or maybe it's mainstream culture as well as mainstream lifestyle - I mean, we're not using pop like in pop art, or even in the sense of pop culture as the stuff that is ironically celebrated by art students - Transformers: the Movie and Mr. T. It's the stuff that is genuinely popular...

I agree that the relationship is close, though. Like, maybe a Justin CD could equate to a hamburger, with the corporation as the producer and the artist or the flavour research team as the key mechanism of production.But unit shifters, basically, right?
 
  

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