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Underground > Radio & Music >

Kylie Minogue=Best Band Ever???

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21:34 / 06.10.03

Flyboy - thanks for that link to that Slate article. That was great.

In other news: Kylie rocks. No, seriously. I'm listening to 'Fever' (the song, from the albumn) right now.

And I love it!

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:17 / 07.10.03

Radiator: could you do me a favour and respond to something I actually said in this thread, rather than simply dropping pseudo-homophobic innuendoes? Thanks.

07:51 / 07.10.03

Rockist: what about popist? I get a bit sick of all the aging indie kids who've discovered pop music preaching to people on here. I agree with Radiator in that I think Kylie Minogogue is shite. However, I recognise that this is my own personal predjuice, carefully cherished and nutured, and possibly in contradiction of the evidence.

And Fly, I don't get your point here: "Forgive me for thinking that using the name that appears on the side of the record has become acceptable shorthand for the production team, session musicians etc involved. And Christ, the "don't even write their own stuff!" argument - agaaaaaiiin?"

Do you not think Kylie is a brand, with a clever marketing team around her, rather than an artist? Perhaps someone should start a thread on this?Will read that article you linked to and get back to you.

08:09 / 07.10.03

Actually having thought about it most of the stuff I like is a formulaic as anything, under close examination. I was on about reggae in a recent thread, and reggae is well known for being strongly studio based with multiple versions being cut over the same basic tracks.

Radiator: Not liking an artist is one thing, trying to prove your taste is better than someone else's objectively is another. I'm with you though in that I DONT LIKE HER.

09:42 / 07.10.03

Do you not think Kylie is a brand, with a clever marketing team around her, rather than an artist?

I don't see why she can't be an artist and have a clever marketing team around her as well... I think she's beyond the stage of having her career directed by a manager such as Pete Waterman or Simon Cowell and I imagine she has a great deal of input into her own image and the songs she chooses to sing (and has done for some time - see her relatively unsuccessful 'indie' LP, including a pretty rubbish song written by the Manics).

I suppose what I am reacting to here is the implication (in many of the posts in this thread) that just because a woman sings chart pop songs, she must be governed by a svengali figure and have no agency in her own output - or to put it more bluntly, she must be a 'bimbo' (whatever one of those is...). Why can't people sing chart pop because they like it and enjoy it, and because they are successful at it? Why the perception that female pop stars are all brainless?

I think Kylie probably has a great deal of nous and knows exactly what she is doing, and she is very good at what she does.

Tryphena Absent

09:53 / 07.10.03

Kylie can't have pushed a "european sound", you half-wit: she's from Oz (hint: not part of europe)

Because no-one can ever have a sound that evokes or is associated with a geographical location other than the one of their birth? Interesting assertion. You might want to take it up with David Bowie or Mick Jagger...

I'd suggest Eric Clapton. After all he introduced blues licks in to rock music and of course without that particular influence none of this music would exist in its present form. Oh but wait... Clapton wasn't black, how could he possibly have used music that was entirely of black origin??

10:07 / 07.10.03

I wonder about this, perhaps I've read too much William Gibson - ie his stuff about artificial pop stars (Idoru etc)which is based on a real phenomena, I think. I think you're right in that she does have a great deal of input into whatever it is she does. I would like to know how much input she has into her creative output though - this is actually out of genuine curiousity, btw, I've been pondering this all morning - not so I can assert some sort of huge superiority thing. Asserting artist vs. manufactured is bollocks - I'm not trying to defend the position of the pure artist vs. evil manufactured pop, that's completly bogus, I was thinking of how she might have a lot of other factors driving her career, beyond her desire to create music. In this she's no different from any other artist but it's interesting to consider.

10:50 / 07.10.03

Interesting little fact "Can't get you Out of my Head" was offered to Sophie Ellis Bextor first but she turned it down, wonder how it would have done in the charts with her?

11:03 / 07.10.03

Interesting fact #2:

Parlophone (Kylie's label) implicitly told her that she would have to do out and out pop when they signed her. She was to be totally rebranded back to her "popular for the masses" days (ignoring all the 'cred' stuff with deconstruction), no arguing, no input.
"Light Years" did absurdly well and Kylie has been given plenty of input in the last two albums direction and material. In fact she's trying to make it even more edgey and less commercial.
Word at the office is she's a bit sick of being a gay icon. Shhhhh.

Matthew Fluxington

11:11 / 07.10.03

Do you not think Kylie is a brand, with a clever marketing team around her, rather than an artist?

Well, first, I agree with everything Kit Cat Club has said in response to this. Well, except for that I think that "I Don't Need Anyone" (with the Manic Street Preachers) is one of Kylie's best tunes.

Second, I can't see how this isn't just as valid a mode of musical entertainment/art as anything else. It's not a new model. People obsessed with "authenticity" seems to obsess on the Beatles/Dylan paradigm, but why should that be the only credible mode of music consumption? There are times when this model seems to be acceptable, but it's almost invariably with older music - standards, vocals, jazz. Why is this fine for Frank Sinatra and not for Kylie Minogue?

Why are we so afraid of music created by collective and committee? I suspect that this is mostly a holdover from the Cold War - it's a fear of Communism, isn't it?

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:17 / 07.10.03

Ill: first up, I'm sick myself of the "aging indie kid" accusation being thrown around whenever someone champions pop music. My love of pop music pre-dates my indie kid phase, as I'm sure it did with many people... It's not like I'm even making any pretenses about the fact that I like indie TOO (and hip-hop, and whatever - why is this still such a weird idea?).

And it's not about "preaching": if, say, in a thread you started to enthuse about a reggae artist, I came in and made very familiar, dismissive remarks which had implications for reggae as a whole as well as the artist in question, I think you'd have a similarly impassioned response.

Do you not think Kylie is a brand, with a clever marketing team around her, rather than an artist?

I think "in addition to" rather than "rather than" - and I think this is no more or less the case for Kylie than for a number of other artists who are generally granted 'artist' status largely on the basis of their image (ironically). Or to be more exact... I'm interested in calling into question the reliability of certain signifiers which are taken to indicate an artist's 'auteur' status or otherwise. For example, if I say "Beck has excelled himself on his new single", then it's not usually thought necessary for me to mention the producer, or any other musicians who may play on the record - people won't necessarily assume that I think the record is entirely self-produced, or say "how can you give him the credit for the drum part, Fly, he didn't even play it himself!" (It's just an example, before anyone points out that there is a new self-produced Beck single, which would be just my luck.) This is what I meant by acceptable shorthand - which is not to say that there isn't worth sometimes in dissecting who made a record and how, but that's just one approach, which I think ought to be optional.

Anyway Frere-Jones says all this better than me in the article I linked to, I think...

11:45 / 07.10.03

Fly: Sorry, no offence meant. I was just mouthing off a bit because I shared (some of) Radiator's opinions. You certainly weren't preaching, I was just being a bit of a tosser. You (and Fluxy) are spot on with the collectivity thing - I can see parallels with this and reggae, as I said, and you're right, this sort of thing isn't taken into account when someone starts banging on about that music's "authenticity".

(Interestingly enough you get the same bogus "high" vs "low" culture bollocks in reggae circles - with "slackness" (read: overtly sexual) attacked by fans of more "conscious" sounds (read: lyrics 'bout sufferation and Rastafari)- and a lot of these fans seem to be white and in the UK, I dunno what they're on about. Also "lovers" (read: popular) doesn't get the same critical acclaim as the "conscious" stuff.

I genuinely would like to know more about the interection of music and money/business that you see exemplified in someone like Kylie though. This doesn't mean I think she's the devil or the whore of Babylon, I just think it's very interesting, to see how her creative process gets negoiated through all these pressures. I am actually more inclined to give her music a chance after reading this thread so there you go!

11:46 / 07.10.03

Why is this fine for Frank Sinatra and not for Kylie Minogue?

Well, you've hit the nail on the head there. We also can't deny the massive role producers play in rock music. Were His 'n Hers and Different Class really the work of the same "band?" And is there really any difference between N'Sync and the early Beatles?

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:06 / 07.10.03

Just read a rumour that Kylie's new album will contain two tracks produced by... The Neptunes. Woot!

13:37 / 07.10.03

Ho jes!

Downloaded 'Slow' and it is really good. For sophisti-cats.

The "Bush/Blair special relationship" doesn't necessarily have any homophobic undertones, Fly; if you think about it. Radiator's been doing a splendid job of making himself look silly without necessitating implications like this.

Oh, I downloaded that Sub-Zero thing you recommended, Radiator, and it was shit.

13:42 / 07.10.03

Since when was Kylie a band? Does she now consist of a number of members that play instruments? Or is she a one woman band with a bass drum strapped to her back and cymbal on her head? Last I saw she wiggled her toosh and sang some beautiful melodies but there wasn't an instrument in sight.

13:59 / 07.10.03

Kylie is fabulous. For one, she's 5'2" so she has to be great.
Kylie/New Order has to be one of my favourite mixes alongside Mad House/Black Ledgend. Loads of people were going, oh my god, whats that she mixed it with? And anything, in my opinion, that makes people realise how fabulous Blue Monday is, much be a good thing.

I think Cant.. with Sophie Ellis Bextor would have got to about no.3 for a week, and then gone down as fast as it went up. It would have been not disasterous as such, but lacked the edge Kylie gave it.

And she has a nice bum.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

14:23 / 07.10.03

Oh good god, I'm being accused of homophobia now? I was thinking of the USA/UK post 1945 thing, and in any case I'm pretty sure I ripped it off something I read here ages ago- people's sexual orientaitons are neither my buisness or my interest.

Radiator: Not liking an artist is one thing, trying to prove your taste is better than someone else's objectively is another. I'm with you though in that I DONT LIKE HER.

Never said anything of the sort Ill- in fact it's been flux who's been telling me to change my tastes/reading habits several times in this and the Strokes thread (and quite condescendingly, too). All I did was offer my two cents to a discussion thread, and got pounced on like a Las Vegas Illusionist. If people want to express their personal opinions, then fine- but it seems to me there are an awful lot of posters with double standards.

Oh, I downloaded that Sub-Zero thing you recommended, Radiator, and it was shit

That's exactly the point, Dunc.

Matthew Fluxington

14:25 / 07.10.03

Since when was Kylie a band?

The title of this thread is a goof on the Radiohead/Slayer=Best Band Ever??? thread titles.

14:34 / 07.10.03

'It's shit' is the point? I am never listening to you again.

You're killing music.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

14:39 / 07.10.03

So wait, you downloaded a techno house track based on a character from Mortal Kombat, and you expected it to be good?

Man you deserve everything you get

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

14:42 / 07.10.03

Also I just realised Kylie is the same height as Wolverine and remembered that long ago I'd heard a crazy rumour that she had extensive amounts of titanium grafted to her bones.

In conclusion, Kylie has been bred by a media Savvy international conspiracy to be the "acceptable face" of mutant genocide.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:43 / 07.10.03

[threadrot]I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and withdraw the "pseudo-homophobic" remark - it came to mind because, as Cholister once pointed out, there can be an unfortunate inferral of "they like each other a lot. like lovers. gay lovers!" in even the most otherwise admirable criticisms of Bush and Blair.[/threadrot]

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

14:48 / 07.10.03

Thanks. I can't stand homophobes so it kind of rankles, y'know?

Matthew Fluxington

14:54 / 07.10.03

But Flyboy, you and I do like each other a lot. Like lovers. Like gay lovers.

Are we growing apart now? I'm sorry I ever said anything negative about Karen O.

15:00 / 07.10.03

you downloaded a techno house track based on a character from Mortal Kombat

Sounds perfectly good in theory. I thought it'd be like fucking hard and shit. Like Sub Zero. The Chinese Dead Ninja. Who shoots ice. But it was weak, with some woman bleating.

Didn't notice the 'house' bit, which probably should've suggested otherwise, I suppose.

15:02 / 07.10.03

And while Kylie may have been bred that way, like Wolverine, she's clearly on the side of the good guys now.

Or is she still Magneto?

Can she be Phoenix for a while?

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

15:09 / 07.10.03

Kylie's aleady done Phoenix- sinking without trace for years then suddenly reappearing with no good reason why.

23:13 / 07.10.03

what is kylies art, then, if its not writing or producing?

obviously, the pole-dancer appeal she has in some of her outfits is well accomplished, but is that it?

i think the key for me is that in the world of pop, justin rates less highly than farrel in the Artist stakes. i mean, the brand may do well, but in terms of the music, the face of the corportation is not the genius.

so she chooses songs well.

is an editor an artist for choosing great writers to create a magazine?

for the record, i like her tunes. i just dont think she's a genius, and neither do i consider timberlake to be one.

00:03 / 08.10.03

is an editor an artist for choosing great writers to create a magazine?

Yes. Your reasoning here sounds unreasonably narrow to meet your preconceived rockist notions. Are remixers artists? The original producers who make rock records sound better than garage recordings? And who's to say the "corporation" is not art in itself?

01:13 / 08.10.03

Singing and dancing would be her art, as it is Justin's.

02:25 / 08.10.03

Your reasoning here sounds unreasonably narrow to meet your preconceived rockist notions.

my what?
how on earth can you say that about me?
what are you talking about when you say my preconcieved rockist notions?
do you mean preconcieved by you?

And who's to say the "corporation" is not art in itself?

i think we are then getting into territory that could feasibly see us commending the artistry of anyone who does a body of work, from a corporate executive to a binman.

"wow, he is an artist! i mean, the way he made sure none of my recycling ended up in the driveway...just magnificent. still moves me to tears, in fact."

doesnt the term become less meaningful the more it encompasses?
i mean, there can be art in everything you do, but does that necessarily make you an artist?

and yeah, i would agree kylie's art is her dancing. maybe even her singing, but that is fairly overproduced, isnt it?
by that i mean arent kylies voice in the original take and her voice on the finished record quite different sounds?

and would you like her at all if she were not a cute wee lady with a predeliction for hotpants? (if she had still been afforded a career after a stint in TeeVee, even)

02:30 / 08.10.03

maybe my earlier post should have read in terms of the product, the face of the corportation is not the genius responsible. would that have been better?

Murray Hamhandler

02:39 / 08.10.03

For me:

pop : indie rock :: progressivism : radicalism

From the position of the latter, the former looks weak. Lacking in purity. But the latter, while admittedly infused w/good ideas, has severe limitations that do not become evident until one "chills the fuck out" and begins to view the former as a viable, and often desireable, alternative.

Mind you, I'm only just now in a transitional phase where this is becoming clearer to me.

pop : indie rock :: chocolate milk : wheat grass juice

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

07:31 / 08.10.03

By "transititonal pahse", I take it you just hit thirty?

Kylie is pop. Some of us like he, some do not. But anyone trying to divine artistic genius from her will be sorely dissapointed. Just listen to her or don't listen to her but please don't try to analyse her.

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