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Dude, you're not supposed to hit girls!

 
  

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EE
19:17 / 02.10.03
We all know that violence won't solve anything. And I'm sure we've all learned that telling people this won't stop them from beating you silly when they really want to, or at the least you shouldn't count on it stopping them.

I don't know where I stand on violence. I certainly don't like hurting people, and I'm not hot on being hurt myself. And I've never been able to justify self-defence. It seems like self-defence is saying "I'd never hurt anyone! I'd never back down from my principles...unless I'm in danger of being hurt. Then it's okay to kick some ass."

So you can understand my confusion when Brian, a friend of mine who settled his views on violence long ago (he's all for it), got into a fight at a club with four girls.

To be fair, they started it and were complete bitches anyway. Alright, so they were only kinda rude and seemed intent on starting some shit. They gave his girlfriend's friend a black eye and then went to work on her. He had just slipped on a puddle of spilt beer and stood up to see four girls working over his girlfriend, so in his half drunken state he decided the best thing to do was go to her aid. So he runs up and pushes two girls out of the way (very easily, as Brian is quite strong) and then -crack- he punches out the leader. And let me tell you, he fucked her shit up good. She went down like in Mortal Kombat when the voice says "Finish Him!" and you don't do anything. Arms at her sides, straight as a tree trunk.

Fortunately (I guess), Brian is a ninja and managed to disappear
from the scene that was about to ensue around the unconscious body lying in a pool of it's own blood. As he was relating the story to me later that night, I didn't know whether to say "way to go!" or "you should be ashamed of yourself". He was protecting someone close to him, but he was obviously able to handle to scene without really hurting anyone. And maybe in his world things do get settled with violence.

And besides, I feel guilty telling him that it wasn't cool to sock the shit out of some girl when, deep down, I'm pleased that at least one club bitch knows that you can't get away with anything just because you're a girl. Occasionally I feel a pang of guilt for that pleasurable feeling. Confusing!

Were Brian's actions ethically defensable? Have any of you been in one of these situations? What did you do? Do you regret it?
 
 
Char Aina
19:28 / 02.10.03
i think they were.
his actions, i mean.

i would hope that i would not be blinded by 'gender guilt' if there was a girl putting those i love in danger.
as i believe thomas more once said, it is a fool who dies fro his principles. (someone can tell me if i got it wrong. please.)


if it was your lady, would you rather she was beaten badly, or your principles were?
thats not to say you should change the way you think, ut it i sto say you should maybe be less rigid in your enforcement.

dont be letter law, be spirit law, ya dig?
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
20:01 / 02.10.03
Interesting conundrum. It is striking someone of the opposite gender, which I am vehemently against. On the flip side, it is protecting someone you love from grevious bodily harm, which I vociferously support. In this case, I would like to think I could have interposed myself between the combatants and used some restraining moves without resorting to fisticuffs. I can not say with any certainty what my reaction would have been in the same situation.

If he is bragging about it, that is not kosher, as it would show a fundamental disrespect for women. However if it was related as a simple statement of fact, it really is hard to judge...

If it were my lady, I would do whatever I could to assure that she did not recieve a beating. I do not wish that on anyone, but if it came down to a choice, I would rather it were visited on someone I had no emotional investment in.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
20:14 / 02.10.03
To clarify my last post: If I felt I had to, I would.
 
 
bob
20:43 / 02.10.03
At a time like this I remove my humbling and self-effacing "What would Jesus do?" button and replace it with my "I'm with Nietzsche" button. As in "Beyond Good and Evil."

No violence is no good. No it is in most cases not right to hit a woman. Not because of bullshit gender politics but because in most cases it will simply be unfair from a physical perspective.

BUT! If someone or something I love dearly and care much about is being abused by some other twat, and if it is mostly clear that no amount of reason or passive resistance would put an end to such abuse. Well, I’d sock that bitch right in the face too.

As I see it, she gave up any right to claim "don’t hit me I’m a woman" status or "Don’t hit me I’m another human being" status when she started swinging. To say again but different, if a person engages in acts of violence then they have to accept that many will respond in kind.

It’s only natural.
 
 
Cat Chant
21:34 / 02.10.03
striking someone of the opposite gender, which I am vehemently against.

Really? So it's okay for girls to hit girls, and boys to hit boys, but not for girls to hit boys? That's intriguing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:59 / 02.10.03
Dude, girls have venom in their nails. Venom that only works on boys. Fact.

Using physical force to prevent greater injury being done? Good. Using superior strength to deliver a smackdown because you can? Less good. I'm not sure where the question departs from simple pragmatism.
 
 
bio k9
22:35 / 02.10.03
I don't think the venom is in their nails.
 
 
Ganesh
22:38 / 02.10.03
I think it's only okay if they're bitches.
 
 
bitchiekittie
22:55 / 02.10.03
I don't think the venom is in their nails

bad doctor's visit after a hot date?
 
 
HCE
23:18 / 02.10.03
Of course he was right. The only thing he did wrong was let them get in any swings in the first place. What took him so long? If somebody attempted to physically injure me and my boyfriend didn't try to put a swift stop to it, up to and including the use of force, I'd hit him.
 
 
bio k9
00:28 / 03.10.03
So you're saying its always ok, Ganesh?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:02 / 03.10.03
Only if you're a ninja.
 
 
Cailín
03:47 / 03.10.03
On the whole, I really have a problem with a person with a significant physical advantage hitting a weaker person. And since guys are quite often bigger and stronger than girls, I suppose that translates into not liking it when guys hit girls. But, as someone who's been accused of having a bad temper and might very well pick a fight if the mood/blood alcohol level was just right... Well, fellas, if I ever decided to take a swing at one of your girlfriends, I hope you'd have the good sense to give me a bit of a pounding.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
04:32 / 03.10.03
A friend of mine was, at a gig about a month ago, accosted by security for grabbing a girl's hands to stop her hitting him. He wasn't going to hit her, and this girl had been kicking and punching me (which I was just ignoring, to be honest; Hulk hide admits not beatings) and when I wasn't reacting, had turned on him instead. His mistake was reacting - although to be fair, he did react ONLY after she'd bitten him.

(All this to get in the front row of Nashville Pussy, I hasten to add.)

So I was a bit chagrined by the proceedings; security came the heavy with a bloke because the girl in question turned on the "poor me!" look when they looked over - but had no problems with relying on the fact nobody would call her on it.

What to do in that case?

Personally, I don't like hitting anybody, not just women. I find the idea abhorrent, for some reason, though if someone was coming at me with a steel bar I'd probably get over my ethical problems fairly sharpish.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
05:32 / 03.10.03
EE To be fair, they started it and were complete bitches anyway.

Andrew?
 
 
Sax
06:15 / 03.10.03
In a Sesame Street stylee: Three of these posters are not like the others...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:24 / 03.10.03
I think the woman-beater's girlfriend was really lame, I mean seriously she, like, let herself get beaten up and had to have a man bail her out! And she's going out with an abusive twat, I mean once you've hit one woman you'll hit any. He was blatantly mad because someone else hit his woman when it's his right alone. What the fuck was her problem anyway? Everyone knows only your man should be able to beat you. If it was me I'd be fucking ashamed of myself- you shouldn't be associating with people like that. They sound really wussy.
 
 
jiltedchild
09:33 / 03.10.03
Personally I wouldnt have hit them, i'd have run.

The other night though i went out with two friends of mine who hadnt met before and as i came back from the toilet i discovered the Girl had punched the boy square in the face because he called her Lisa at which she took great offense. Even worse she then burst into tears and we had to spend the rest of the night trying to stop her putting a knife in her belly or jumping off things.
She seemed to be of the opinion that its alright for girls to hit blokes if they are drunk. I definately dont agree with that one.
 
 
Char Aina
11:44 / 03.10.03
And she's going out with an abusive twat, I mean once you've hit one woman you'll hit any.

i kicked a girl when i was eleven. i have had many (physical, not emotional) reasons to do so again, and i never have.
is this a dormant evil, one that will surface only after i am mayor/president/governor? will i take my stress out on girls in later life?

or are you talking out of your nonsense hole?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:58 / 03.10.03
Ooh, Toksik, you're an abuser! I'm telling on you!
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
12:19 / 03.10.03
Deva

Really? So it's okay for girls to hit girls, and boys to hit boys, but not for girls to hit boys? That's intriguing.

That is a pretty sticky subject. I think that at times violence is justified. While I do think that there is a non-violent solution to everything, I don't think that the parties involved are always willing to explore those options.

To the original question: No, it is not okay for anyone to hit anyone. When you throw cross gender violence into the mix, it adds yet another factor to an already bad situation. A guy who was raised as I was will not hit a female. I have had women beat the living stuffing out of me, only on one occasion did I even cock a fist (it wasn't thrown). I have physically restrained them, even lifted them off the ground to remove their leverage, but never struck them.

I suppose that did sound a bit sexist. It comes from the societal stereotype that women are the "weaker sex". I was raised that way, for me it is a respect issue and is an integral part of my programming.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
12:35 / 03.10.03
Actually, Toksik, it is a lurking eeeeeeeviiiiillll *said in Mermaidman style* that will haunt you for the rest of your life. You should banish yourself into a self-imposed hermitage just in case it ever surfaces again. You are an example of the oppression and violent sexism that has existed to put down Womyn for most of western history.


/sarcasm
 
 
Ganesh
12:45 / 03.10.03
only on one occasion did I even cock a fist

I'm more the 'fisting a cock' kinda guy...

Sorry.
 
 
Danzig: He Pitys the Fool!
12:46 / 03.10.03
Personally, I think this guy was in a no win situation. If he had restrained said girls, they would have attacked with their venomous nails, caused a commotion, and over the bouncers would have trotted. Now more often than not, regardless of the situation, a bouncer will try to be a hero to a 'poor little defenceless woman'. Hence fella gets kicked out of club, and gets a slap for his troubles.

Personally I think he chose a better option. If he has been bragging about, that ain't right. But i'm all for equality. A man shouldn't have to feel any worse about hitting a woman than a man, if in his own mind he feels fully justified(Justification being the real grey area for too many people).

Rather than getting on the moral high ground, try and generalise. If a person(regardless of gender) is trying to harm you, or your loved ones. Do you take what you feel are the necessary actions to prevent it? For me, always.

Is the issue really 'that he hit a woman', or is it that people feel it was too extreme for the situation? Is it that people think the punishment outweighed the crime? If this girl had pulled a knife, would we all think this guy was in the wrong?
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:47 / 03.10.03
I resent the idea that women, being smaller, are necessarily weaker and therefore more susceptible to an asswhipping in a fight.

but that's me, and I'd have no squeamishness in regards to puncturing an eye and no reservations about tearing a sac from it's moorings
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:51 / 03.10.03
Danzig, she didn't pull a knife. That would have made the situation different. In this situation, I think that it was wrong to use such force without at least trying some form of restraint or non-physical intimidation (or even reason, though this is harder if one is drunk and one's judgement is affected). I would have the same opinion if the chap in question had knocked out another man.

I agree with Haus, basically.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:53 / 03.10.03
I suppose that did sound a bit sexist. It comes from the societal stereotype that women are the "weaker sex". I was raised that way, for me it is a respect issue and is an integral part of my programming.

If you remove the stereotype of femininity, let's say it was a very pumped up female body builder coming towards you, would you still react in that way or would you be separated enough from the stereotype to react differently?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
12:58 / 03.10.03
I can think of several places where the bouncers are as you describe: muscular women, and damned good at their jobs too. There wouldn't be time for EE's girls 'n' violence fantasy to kick off with them around.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:00 / 03.10.03
Steelwelder: I just have a mild thing about people using the phrase "the opposite gender" when what they mean is "women". Cos, you know, for women, the opposite gender is men. (Well, kind of, but this probably isn't the thread to talk about whether opposition is the most useful model for the two-sex system.)
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
13:08 / 03.10.03
Anna

Those are women?

In all seriousness, even in that situation I believe I would try all non-violent options until it became clear that there were none left. Thank jeebus I have never been in that situation. I would probably have ended up with a severely stomped ass.


Deva

In my case it does mean women since I am a man. I however don't think it is anymore right for a women to hit a man. I was using it to refer to whatever the opposite gender to the reader is.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:19 / 03.10.03
It's an Old Testament / New Testament kinda schtick.

Should you 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you', or should you 'Do not unto others that which you would not have done unto you'....knowarrimean.

Personally, I'm with the old skool Torah boys (and girls), and firmly believe that once you resort to physical means of expression and communication, that becomes the language being spoken, and you can't be crying when the lyrics get gnarly.

Or, in other words, whether you are very young, very old, frail, firm, healthy, sick, male, female, sane, insane, whatever...You hit someone, you'd better make sure they go down, cos they are going to hit you back otherwise.

Hence, if you are the fightin' type, make sure you are really very good at it (Think Mickey One Punch/Brad Pitt in 'Snatch') or else find some other, dare I say gentler means of expressing yourself.

What the fuck difference does it make if you are attacked by a woman or a man? Or a dolphin or a shark? KILL THAT MOTHERFUCKER BEFORE IT KILLS YOU!

This thread touched a bit of a nerve actually, cos I once had my hair pulled out at the roots, and took a kicking from a couple of cracked up girls at a club...I was pulled to the floor, and protected my face, so i got loads of kicks in the guts...When I got to my feet and planted a steel-toed 30 yard punt squarely in the Poom Poom of Lead Bitch, thus ending her evening in a crutch splitting paroxysm of agony, the drunken milieu of 'gentlemen' (ooh, doesn't chivalry just live and breathe), who hadn't seen a thing up to the point that my boot connected with her flange, leaped to her noble defence, and I got a secong huge kicking, for no fucking reason.

I ended up in hospital.

All this happened because, for no fucking reason, they had pushed my mate down the stairs in the club. I was outside flyering, completely oblivious. When I offered them a flyer, my pissed mate came past, said 'Don't give them a flyer, they're bitches', and doshed his pint in their faces (very effectively).

I knew nothing, and was a surprised as them. My mate legged it, and they promptly started on me.

So I was in the same conundrum, until I decided 'Fuck it, I have to defend myself here'. For which I was kicked in a second time.

So anyway, since then, I have a simple, beautiful policy - Hit me, and I hit you back. Only harder.

The only exception is with my son. But he's only fifteen inches tall.
 
 
gingerbop
13:19 / 03.10.03
If I was a big scary-looking man as you described, I would go over and look big and scary beside/infront of my girlfriend. But maybe that would just be for the novelty of looking big and scary...
 
 
Quantum
13:59 / 03.10.03
Dudes, it's pretty simple really- I operate a tit for tat policy. If anyone started on my girlf, well, they'd get it in the tit. I have to say I think pole-axing the girl went a bit far, I would've used less force (my 'don't hit girls' reflex would've pulled my blows) but if my girl was on the floor I don't know- maybe the red mist would descend.
I like to think I'd give fair warning though- "Back of you fucking bitches or you get kicked in the tits" would do it I reckon.
 
 
MJ-12
14:13 / 03.10.03
It's even simpler than that. All he had to do was stand there and let her hit him without responding. After being innundated by with his manliness radiation for a few minutes, she would have fallen in love with him, and offered to become his concubine.

There really is no call for violence in a situation like this.
 
  

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