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My two cents (or "What I hear, what I think")

 
  

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Hieronymus
12:30 / 05.10.03


Awwwww.
 
 
Mazarine
14:15 / 05.10.03
It's not all wuffly noses, my friends.

There's a shrew for everyone. There's even a Golden Rumped Elephant Shrew.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:55 / 05.10.03
Mazarine: Please, please tell me that's a real film. I'll be so disappointed if it's not.
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:01 / 05.10.03
I think we should call inexperienced posters 'shrewbies'.

Nah. It's too easily interpreted as rude.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:01 / 05.10.03
Despite having never changed my name on this board I've had my name misspelled several times by people at Barbelith. It's a little thing, I know, but little things like learning a poster's name makes me feel more comfy.

Jack, isn't this a running joke by now?
 
 
YNH
16:15 / 05.10.03
I'm thinking we could really do with the return of a "previous posts/previous threads by this poster" function.

Second. Why did we ever get rid of that?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:44 / 05.10.03
Mmm. I don't know-- I mean, I'm all for having a "find posts by..." option and I'd have no qualms about people being able to see my posting trail, but I can also see how the feature could be open to abuse. Someone with a grudge could effectively stalk posters round the board, adding hostile or abusive comments whenever they posted. That's happened to me, and it's very disconcerting. It should be possible for people to hide their posting trails if need be, perhaps by including an option to restrict access to the information to anyone but Tom.
 
 
YNH
19:47 / 05.10.03
Okay, that was probably why we got rid of that. Are there problems with calling that sort of behavior and actionable offense? That way posters who enjoy reading Mordant posts may.
 
 
bio k9
20:33 / 05.10.03
And I can remember where the hell I've been in the morning.
 
 
w1rebaby
21:10 / 05.10.03
You can follow someone around and harass them quite effectively without a "last posts by..." feature.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:30 / 06.10.03
I hate you Mordant, you and your little shrew too

I think a 'find posts by' is a marvellous idea because I often want to acquaint myself better with lurkers but mostly because I still can't find the 'real live tiger' thread and it's destroying me.

And look here Denfold, if you will have such a complex and misreadable name, I mean I called you Denfield for ages and you never said nothing and why... because it bloody looks like there's an 'i' there.
 
 
Char Aina
12:18 / 06.10.03
ah, but madam, you do also on occasion refer to me as both toksic and toxic.
and you are not alone.


*bloody dyslexics, mumble grumble*

but yes, a 'find posts by' would help me immensely. not only for other posters, to get a feel for them and to find other works of GENIUS, but for myself, to find what i have said to people in the past.
i have actually searched the site recently to try and find a function just like that, and was dissapointed not to find it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:48 / 06.10.03
Well, people keep putting my @ sign in the wrong place.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:14 / 06.10.03
A painful operation most usually suffered only by those afflicted with Emmery's Fever, which ailment responds more swiftly to treatment by means of leeches.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:46 / 06.10.03
Yeah, and I hate leeches. Cost a fortuen, too. You do realise that every time someone puts my @ in the wrong place, I have to go down the kitten-juggling pits just to make enough money for leeches? Man, I hate to do it, but this is my health we're talking about.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:52 / 06.10.03
So, does all this threadrot mean that everytihng is rosy in the garden again and we no longer have to worry?

I'm just asking.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:29 / 06.10.03
Not exactly, no. I think unless we put a certain amount of energy into maintaining a level of civility, and into even fairly injudicious trust, we'll be right back here in a few months. It's like freedom, justice or peace - it's not a stable state, it's an activity.

Now, the counterpoint to that is that less prolific posters have to get their fingers out and get involved. They have to think about things which interest them and start threads. They have to take risks. Otherwise Barbelith will go into a coma of goddam profound ennui (tm).
 
 
The Falcon
00:57 / 07.10.03
I would really, really like a 'find all posts' by user function.

If someone does what they did to M.C., they can be deleted or banned. Which they'd deserve. I don't think the board should be set up on the basis that "some arsehole might do something bad", though I do appreciate that must have been unpleasant and disturbing.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:32 / 07.10.03
*snigger* any user who stalks another should be stalked in turn by the moderators of any forum that they happen to be in at any given time... or banned. I could go with banned.

Nick. I'm sorry but I don't get what you mean by maintaining a level of civility. That presumes that people weren't before and it all seems a little vague. I understand that some posters are intimidated but that doesn't mean that others are being uncivil to them necessarily but rather that they feel barbelith's posting style is hard to step in to because it's quite severe and very tightly controlled by the other posters who've had plenty of practice. So what precisely do you mean?
 
 
Spaniel
08:45 / 07.10.03
Personally I'd love to see the old 'find all posts by user' function reinstated, if only to keep tabs on my mates.
 
 
illmatic
11:12 / 07.10.03
I'd like to see that function but so's I could find all my old posts and threads I've started, and am too lazy to trawl through the foums and look for - something tells me this might be a programmers nightmare though. I mean, I have 1400+ and I'm not anywhee near the most prolific, that's a lot of information to have moving around.

Anna: I get what Nick's saying - seems to boil down to be polite in disagreement. I try and do this most of the time anyhow (aprt form when I'm posting to you), as I've seen a couple of spaces I really like go down the tubes 'cos of flame wars.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:47 / 07.10.03
Basically, I was answering Haus' question: do we no longer have to worry?

To which the answer is "But, yes - we do".

In the big world, people have been using words like Peace and Justice and so on for years now as nouns, despite an increasing amount of evidence that they're verbs. You can't just declare a state of Peace and sit back, you have to do it.

So that answer to Haus' (I think rather innocent) question is that we have to put some effort in, for ever, to be sure that our responses not only answer the issue at hand, but contribute to the general status of the board as a place of cogent, polite, and exciting discussion.

I don't think that's a bad thing in general, actually. We need to raise the bar a little. I try, every so often, to post something which is, while not exhaustive, at least detailed - for example, here. What I hope is that some of this information will come as new and fascinating and thought-provoking to someone, who will then roar off and find out more. They will then, at some future time, do the same for me, either on the same topic or on some entirely unrelated one.

We'll get out what we put in. I vote for trust, goodwill, cogent argument and interesting information.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:48 / 07.10.03
I like a good fight but I think you can distinguish between a fight and a flame and I try not to start one but I think people generally are quite polite when they start arguing, minus the odd snarky comment, usually it descends in to madness when someone tries to unnecessarily defend their position against all odds.

Now to cut back on those snarky comments would not only eliminate the board we (some of us) know and love but it would also be a method of restricting what some people are saying. Namely the people who create the most traffic here and thus give it a purpose to exist in the first place. So why are we babying people instead of saying, grow a thick skin, think about what you're saying and you'll soon be missed if you leave?

As for trust. Agree with you but not too much. Trust is a balance to be maintained unlike peace or justice. It would appear that this board started off with a little too much trust and that got you right in to the shit didn't it?
 
 
Tom Coates
13:21 / 07.10.03
I think the situation is complex but basically boils down to this: We're all a bit raw and tender after the fights of recent months and I think we need to gradually let people build up the trust again. So while I would never advocate that people truncate their reasonable speech purely not to offend, I am going to suggest that we need to create an atmosphere where people gradually feel more comfortable with the level of banter around the place.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:00 / 07.10.03
Look I don't mean to cause trouble here but this is what I'm hearing:
'hi, there are a load of people on this board that are too uncomfortable to speak out about things. You don't get to know who they are because they, and those of us in the know, don't trust you enough to tell you. So we're going to ask you to behave yourselves but we're not going to tell you how to do it, what you're doing wrong and in fact we're going to give you no guidelines at all.'

I know that this can be a stifling area for a newbie and apparently for some long term posters who do not wish to reveal themselves (probably for fear of getting a defensive response) but trust isn't difficult to build up if people stop talking in veiled sentences. This thread has done nothing to help that, which I suspect was the point that Flyboy was trying to make originally. So how exactly do you expect it to change anything? How can you make an atmosphere that people feel welcome in when you're not quite sure 1)what the aim is really and 2)what precisely the problem is in the first place?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:28 / 07.10.03
Anna -

My worries:

1) There are members of Barbelith, lurkers, semi-regular and regular posters, long and short term members, who feel unable to put their views in discussion. They fear, rightly or not, that they will be ridiculed, bitched at, and ignored.

2) There is a two-way problem of trust. Moderators feel assailed by conspiracies of multi-suiting and whisper-campaigns; others feel abused by intrusive moderation, and (possibly unconscious) cliquish behaviour, and favouritism.

What I ask is that everyone practice trust. I ask you to act on the assumption that there are posters who feel abused, and that they have a right to feel that way, and that you should treat them gently and listen to them. I ask them to believe that there is no ill-intent, no clique, no conspiracy to 'win' arguments.

I ask everyone to step back and let go of questions like 'is this suit a sub-suit of xyz?' or 'if I say this, will I get laughed at or called a nazi?' and simply trust that the discussion will proceed well.

Guidelines are there so you don't have to consider the issues every single time; what I'm suggesting is that you should. You engage with the board as a community every time you post - not just with the discussion in hand. It's time we dealt with that.

What's the aim? To have a good discussion. To have a good community.

What's the problem? See above.
 
 
The Falcon
14:44 / 07.10.03
Quite apart from the fact(oid) that telling someone that what they think makes them a dangerous lunatic wanker or whatever, doesn't tend to shift them round to another point of view.

So it doesn't serve any good purpose, as far as I can see.

I trust the 'lith like fuck these days. And don't have really any qualms about the personal integrity of the (other) moderators, nor have I ever, really.
 
 
Char Aina
14:59 / 07.10.03
i second that.
i dont have any qualms about anyones integrity.

hey, anna? which of my sentences were too veiled? let me clear up whatever you want more transparent.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:10 / 07.10.03
Guidelines are there so you don't have to consider the issues every single time

Nonsense. Guidelines are there so moderators and posters alike don't feel threatened. So that when you consider an issue there's a solid way to deal with it and so that the role of a person who is both a poster and a moderator can be clearly defined. If there's no trust on this board it's because people aren't certain of their own roles.

I ask you to act on the assumption that there are posters who feel abused, and that they have a right to feel that way, and that you should treat them gently and listen to them.

Yes but nothing's clearly defined- what's abuse, how far do you listen to someone and how gentle do we have to be? Look at the threads in music at the moment... where's the abuse? Yes people are disagreeing and few agree with Radiator but it's hardly an attack. In fact lots of people all think everyone else is full of rubbish. The first thing that happens that really strikes a weird chord in me is the fact that Flux and Flyboy are accused of being in some mega war against a less prominent poster in The Strokes thread. Yeah they might be heavy handed and agree with each other but the accusation goes beyond that. It's basically saying they're fighting in league against an underdog. Then the poster arguing against them starts to say it himself. But even when Radiator says things that seem ridiculous to me because to a small extent I agree with him, do I have to tread lightly because I'm also a moderator and post a lot instead of saying 'look this is just wrong'?

The point is that everyone draws the line at a different place. Flux says things that I completely disagree with to new 'lithers all the time so obviously he's going to judge each situation and issue completely differently to me every time. A good discussion means nothing if no one knows what constitutes a good discussion.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:53 / 07.10.03
Guidelines are there so moderators and posters alike don't feel threatened.

All right, I misspoke. Guidelines are broadly applicable generalisations which save you from having to consider the power-relationships and personal dynamics of the board every time you post, because they represent the codification of an analysis of those considerations. People use them and apply them so that, amongst other things, they know what hierarchies and conventions are in place and therefore they know what is an is not appropriate behaviour. From this they know what to expect and how to act.

The point is that I believe we should consider our posts in the light of power dynamics and the board in general.

If there's no trust on this board it's because people aren't certain of their own roles.

I'd say it was partly because one group (A) believes that a second group (B) tacitly polices views and opinions, and will exert social pressure to stigmatise competing and opposed viewpoints, while group (B) believes that (A) members are misinformed, misguided, or ill-intentioned. In fact, you might say people are all too certain of their own roles.

Yes but nothing's clearly defined- what's abuse, how far do you listen to someone and how gentle do we have to be?

That's always going to depend on circumstances and individual judgements. And yes, that means there will be mis-judgements, but that's okay, too. These are questions which are absolutely fundamental to social organisation, by the way.

Look at the threads in music at the moment... where's the abuse? Yes people are disagreeing and few agree with Radiator but it's hardly an attack. [...] The first thing that happens that really strikes a weird chord in me is the fact that Flux and Flyboy are accused of being in some mega war against a less prominent poster in The Strokes thread.

In the context of that discussion, I tend to agree. I don't think either of them was being particularly mean. No guideline could have caught that one, Anna. It's possible that the combination of the two looks like more than it is.

But even when Radiator says things that seem ridiculous to me because to a small extent I agree with him, do I have to tread lightly because I'm also a moderator and post a lot instead of saying 'look this is just wrong'?

It depends. What do you think will work? I'm not a big fan of "this is ridiculous". A clear in-thread statement from Fluz and Flyboy individually saying "this is not what I intended" might help. Is that potentially humiliating and annoying for them? Yes, of course it is. But sooner or later, someone has to be the grown-up, take the bullet, and make it all better.

My suggestion remains: if in doubt, be generous. You can afford to make it clear that you mean no harm. In a serious thread, take the time to make a reasonable, well-referenced post. In a more casual one, try to avoid the appearance of ganging up on someone. I've been the class punchbag on and off-board. It doesn't inspire you to come back.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:33 / 07.10.03
I still can't find the 'real live tiger' thread and it's destroying me

Nah, me neither. Arse.

In general, though, I tend to agree with Nick. And even if this thread hasn't achieved anything, it at least tried, which in itself is kind of a step forward.

I still find the Haus/shrews thing unsettling, though.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:06 / 07.10.03
Here there be Tygers.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:31 / 07.10.03
Okay, I get what you're saying and pretty much agree with it though I think it's difficult to get a handle on a lot of the power relationships on this board because a lot of people talk offline or in other forums.

And yay the tigers!!!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:01 / 07.10.03
(Ah, those heady April days, when tigers stalked the streets of West Uptown Barbelith and I took a trip to Shelbyville with an onion on my belt. It was the fashion in those days. When chasing the trolls out of town was easy and we danced in the street with glee in the aftermath. Not so easy nowadays.)
 
 
Tom Coates
21:34 / 07.10.03
I think it's just as easy, but they still keep coming back and I'm getting old and my stick-arm is getting tired.
 
  

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