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Barbelith's Clique(s)

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14:33 / 19.09.03

Dude, we totally have a Barbelith Royalty. Jack Denfeld is King of Barbelith, isn't he?

14:39 / 19.09.03

Hail King Jack!

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:51 / 19.09.03

This thread is making my head hurt.

I haven't denied being in a clique because to the best of my knowledge I've never been directly accused of being in one. Nor have I ever denied the existence of a group of people who... oh, let's not bother. To reiterate: I believe the term 'clique' is often invoked to suggest a group of people who conspire to maintain either a consensus of opinion on Barbelith and/or their own status on the board. When it is used in this sense, I don't believe it has any validity. (See this post and then contrast with what I actually say in the thread, for an example of how such an accusation manifests itself and how it can be used to divert attention away from the actual content of an argument.) In many other senses, it may do.

Jack, I don't understand how I'm supposed to "project reassurance" other than assure people that no, I don't treat people in an unfair manner when it comes to moderation. Your advice is welcome. But it strikes me that while your observations of the nature of characters and interactions on the board have a lot of merit, you seem to be putting people who feel they are being accused of the specific kind of elitism, nepotism and injustice I'm referring to (eg, the way J accuse Anna and myself in the link above, which is always water off a duck's back) in something of a bind - they cannot refute such accusations with any vigour, for fear or playing into the hands of their accuser(s), or hurting someone's feelings.

(There are some other issues here regarding the possible responsibility moderators/'prominent posters' have to behave in a certain way separate to their moderation duties - we'll calls this "should Super-Sentinels snark?" - but I'd like to tackle that in the 'Let's Talk...' thread as it's been raised there too, and I think it's slightly more on topic there. Cheers.)

Nietzsch E. Coyote

15:42 / 19.09.03

Flyboy:
you ARE in a clique
I told you, you are in my clique
Nick, you and me.

The new three musketeers!

I'll tell you what man, I will share my asprin with you.

I hope you feel better soon.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:49 / 19.09.03

My God, there's an idea. Which of us is which, though? Porthos is bluff, physically huge, and not always bright. Aramis is amourous, untrustworthy, and brilliant. Athos is brooding, brave, and a natural leader.

15:52 / 19.09.03

Oh, BarbeRoyalty is actually a reference to a way old time in which cliqueishness was called, and someone referred to certain members of the board as BarbeRoyalty. I became quite excited about the whole idea, and naturally wanted to beCOME a BarbeRoyal!

So I was just being sarcastic, and kind of making fun of the whole thing. No harm meant, and Nick don't worry I don't really understand why I should be upset so don't worry about it!

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:55 / 19.09.03

Nick: I'm Aramis, you're Athos. Obviously.

Goodness Gracious Meme

16:34 / 19.09.03

sorry, the word "clique" is just not looking like a real word anymore

Amen to that.

This thread is brilliant. And horriying. And bizarre. Very Barbelith.

few thoughts...

anyway i'm off down the pub. to hang with the Brighton Clique (the existence of which is news to me etceverdecreasingcirclesetc)

Just want to make a simple point. A group of mates is not a c****e, it's a group of mates. Some of the people here are close friends, some are drinking buddies, and that does influence how they read/respond to each other.

Think its important for people who have that connection to be self-aware about that.

*Of course* people who've been around longer get a bit more latitude, that's just social interaction. Isn't that what happens with your mates in the flesh...

What you've got here is an evergrowing social group, so people new to it encounter people at a much greater comfort level with each other.

And there are bigger personalities/presentations. I'm not one, especially, its not really my thing...

And, the people who care most about this place *are* going to have more influence, as they put more in. eg Haus. Can be arrogant, bull-in-china-shop, disingenuous/not that self-aware, and yeah, bullying. And I have no problem with saying that. But does care deeply about this place and want it to work, and puts alot of time and energy into it. I'm not always in agreement with his aims/standards, but I don't doubt his commitment/integrity.

I found this place bloody terrifying when I first found it, didn't understand the in-jokes,some of the level of discussion in the Head Shop made my head spin... But that's just encountering new space/new rules...

Had the experience recently of joining a new community, which was illuminating as to how settled/comfy i was here in knowing how it works.

I recommend it, becoming a 'newbie' again is dead useful...

Mind you, this is nothing to do with puerile accusations of 'fascism'. And I find the use of that word in this context pretty horrifying.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:51 / 19.09.03

Fly:

I'm not so sure. I've never been able to brood. It's something I've always envied in others, this whole dark mysterious history thing. Unfortunately, I get the church giggles and have to be carried off the pitch. It's dreadful because I understand it can be terribly sexy.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

16:59 / 19.09.03

Aramis is amourous untrustworthy brilliant

If I can't be Aramis I will be D’Artagnon!

17:35 / 19.09.03

Had the experience recently of joining a new community, which was illuminating as to how settled/comfy i was here in knowing how it works.

I recommend it, becoming a 'newbie' again is dead useful...

Yes. Yes. Following Ganesh around to religious boards has taught me this. Although the last other board I joined (non religious and utterly unrelated to Barbelith) made me a moderator in less than three weeks. It helps to know the web designer, I suppose. And to maintain a fairly ridiculous character.

18:21 / 19.09.03

but more simply a recognition that any such attempt to sketch in the relationships between people in this way, to decide a "Clique Quotient", is going to be incomplete and a bit pointless

to a large extent, I think all the attempts to join the dots on who knows who and so on are beside the point

the important thing is that there is a bunch of people who agree about certain things on the board, and allegedly attempt to 'enforce' that position one way or another...

I recognised a power structure.

"Oh, that's just Haus being Haus" as I think JackF said. A new person says it and we may not let it simply go.

If people weren’t so asleep from bad food and television shows like wrestling and those retarding real tv shows they’d see that mod was saying these things. That is what I see looking without anger and fear. And eating good food of course. I’ll tell you more about properfood if you want.

the Conversation the basis of which was "hey, who else thinks [insert poster here] is an idiot?"

From what I ca see nobody has made any threads that say this.

I believe the term 'clique' is often invoked to suggest a group of people who conspire

This is your belief.

Why are you so sure everbody shares it?

I don’t.

18:28 / 19.09.03

Clearly what we need is a full list of names dates and times when people who posted here have met, for how long and what they discussed - and not even then will we be free of cliquedom!

Wouldn’t this make you more chained to it?

it's about bloody time that you recognised that people regard you both as fundamental to the 'clique'.

Anna, I’m having this déjà vu that you said this already. I’ve heard you say this. This has been a strange week hasn’tit.

I know that you're not conspirators hiding away

I get the feeling like something is talking in my ear a hissing that mod knew this too and it was people who blew it out of control that made it into this.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

19:04 / 19.09.03

Mind you, this is nothing to do with puerile accusations of 'fascism'. And I find the use of that word in this context pretty horrifying.

And utterly Godwintastic.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

19:27 / 19.09.03

Yeah, I know, YOU are facists WE are the revolution... sigh

"The most pernicious image of all is the anarchist-hero figure.
"A creation of commodity culture, he allows us to buy into an inauthentic simulation of the revolutionary praxis.
"The hero encourages passive spectating and revolt becomes another product to be consumed.
"Up against the wall, mother- fuckers!"

Hey Mod! Time to generate AUTO-CRITIQUE, already.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

19:31 / 19.09.03

You too, 000, what HAVE you been eating?

fruitloops?

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

21:53 / 19.09.03

Following Ganesh around to religious boards has taught me this

The Holy Shit of Bob.

I thought you two were slating me in the most gently, amusing, caustic-but-nice fashion with that crossandflame.com thing...

You were, weren't you?

Weren't you?

Guys?

23:05 / 19.09.03

I think it's called keeping an open mind.

01:51 / 20.09.03

Well, my extended sojourn around the religious boards has been useful to me; I'm glad other people have got something out of it too. I don't quite understand Money $hot's "slating me" comment (do you go under a different name on Cross+Flame?) so it's difficult to respond...

14:51 / 20.09.03

Seriously, it's a board full of people who aren't afraid to ask questions about spirituality and society and all that, with a large representation from a subculture that we don't really get here. (Actually, there are probably an equal number of fundamentalists and outspoken atheists on there, with most voices coming from somewhere in between.)

There are a few genuine scholars and a lot of genuinely nice folks. And they all believe in asking questions.

Not a wind-up at all.

23:57 / 20.09.03

Is the peace march over yet? I came for the breakaway.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

00:02 / 21.09.03

I came for the pie.

Mmmm pie.

00:09 / 21.09.03

Hey! Thats my line!

00:12 / 21.09.03

Apple or cherry?

Or "other?"

09:31 / 21.09.03

I don't understand why cliques (their existence) are always seen as negative and exclusionary instead of people who just feel comfortable with one another.

The word clique does have a negative almost sinister feeling attached to it (for me anyway, for others I cannot say) that club does not. Odd, tired.

We all fall down, like toy soldiers.

13:23 / 21.09.03

I don't understand why cliques (their existence) are always seen as negative and exclusionary instead of people who just feel comfortable with one another.

because the people bringing them up are always the excluded.

why would you try to sink a boat of unity unless the crew was consistently throwing you overboard?

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

14:39 / 21.09.03

I am a member of the Wrasslin Clique, and if you don't like it, we'll PUT YOU THROUGH A TABLE.

Whether you like it or you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's the best thing going today. Whoooo!

00:24 / 22.09.03

Hey, I wanna be in a clique. NY's closest to me, is there an initiation or something?

00:31 / 22.09.03

Fucking hell, you're already King Mod, what more do you want?

If you really want to, though, you can join my clique and help me double the membership in one fell swoop.

00:31 / 22.09.03

Its in the mail.

00:33 / 22.09.03

Hey, no cutting!

00:38 / 22.09.03

I'm not sure what clique I belong in. I mean, I'm in New York, but I'm way up in the nose-bleed row, about as close to Canada as NYC. It's a pickle. I guess I remain a free agent.

00:44 / 22.09.03

Shut it. I got in there first, fair and square.

Join my clique, Jack. Go on, you know you want to. Then we can organise secret meetings where we slag off the people here who we don't like. I can ask my mum to make us jelly and ice cream. It doesn't matter if you don't like jelly and ice cream; I can have yours. We'll be new best friends, so you won't mind. In fact, you'll probably offer me yours anyway. Won't you.

Yeah, we can have a treehouse and all sorts of cool shit, like secret handshakes and notes written in lemon juice or whatever the fuck those old How To Be A Secret Agent books said you were supposed to write invisible messages in. Maybe it was candle wax and you used the lemon juice to make them visible afterwards. Yeah, that sounds right. I wonder how secret agents know that they've got an invisible message and don't just think it's a piece of scrap paper or something? man, can you imagine if one of them ended up throwing away the blueprints to SCHLAP's hidden base? Whoooo. That'd be a bit of a boo-boo.

It doesn't matter, though - we can sort that stuff out later on. If you want to join then send me a PM with the words "THE BROWN COW WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOME TASTIER HAY TO EAT" in it - it'll be a code, like the man from UNCLE used. It means "I'd like to join." We need codewords if we're going to have our own special club. Yeah. Shit. Maybe I shouldn't have posted it up here. It doesn't matter - I'll PM you a different code to use.

00:45 / 22.09.03

We could call it The No-Bios Club. Yeah. That'd be cool.

00:58 / 22.09.03

If you guys are gonna talk shit we're gonna have to wipe your mouths...

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