BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Barbelith's Clique(s)

 
  

Page: 1(2)34

 
 
Jack Fear
16:47 / 18.09.03
See, it’s not about who you’re mates with offline, or where you live. By the definitions and accusations being thrown around by ICBM and others, cliques are about power and influence and sway, about shouting people down, and censorship, and fascism.

ICBM, by his own lights, isn’t angry just because Haus is an asshole: it’s because Haus is an asshole with a badge, operating in an environment where (as ICBM sees it) he (Haus) is tacitly permitted, and even explicitly encouraged, to bully and belittle others, with no adverse consequences to himself.

Does this argument hold?

I’m not a mod, but: given my long tenure here, and the fact that I evidence a relatively oversized personality that many people find entertaining, I can get away with making rude and/or inflammatory statements with very little fear of reprimand—because that’s just Jack’s way, you see. He’s the Daddy, he’s Mr. Grumpy, he’s the ‘ard Man Of Barbeliff, so ‘e is, and he’s got a reputation to uphold. Indeed, far from fearing retribution, I might reasonably expect validation for an obnoxious remark (in the “Barbequotes” thread, for instance), so long as the remark is articulate and witty.

This is a freedom available to me that is not available to others.

Does this freedom of mine impinge upon the freedoms of others?
Does it shape the discourse of the board in any way?
Does it stifle the expression of others?
Is it the thin end of the wedge in a creeping tide of fascist mixed metaphors?
 
 
Jack Fear
16:49 / 18.09.03
On the other hand, Triple-0, I have noticed an interesting paradox about evidence and arguments.

If you have a strong argument, then presenting evidence to back it up makes it even stronger.

If your argument is weak to begin with, though, evidence will only make it weaker—even if the evidence is ostensibly in support of your argument—because evidence in support of a weak argument will almost inevitably be itself flawed or distorted, and will only serve to reinforce the weakness of your premise.

In fact, when the argument is weakest, the only way to defend it is to offer no evidence at all, while insinuating that the truth of your view is self-evident.

Charlatans, fanatics, and tyrants have been using this trick for centuries.
 
 
gingerbop
17:04 / 18.09.03
Of course you're not in a clique, Tom. You said you looked "lame and old". Naturally, this puts you way down the ladder... The kids just above you like to give your head a little kick occasionally.

So who am I sewn to? Really; im intriged.
 
 
pomegranate
17:08 / 18.09.03
why is there no chicago clique?
 
 
gridley
17:10 / 18.09.03
I think there should be a clique just for us old people. No one under 30 need apply....
 
 
000
17:15 / 18.09.03
I don't need to argue with you jerk fear, because I can fart in your general direction instead.

Now that's some strong evidence.

Who's my daddy now?

Where's my dad?

My dad is dead.

He died of asphixiation when he slept in the same hotel room as me. I didn't do it.
 
 
000
17:18 / 18.09.03
Why is it, could someone please tellme, that people here get so bent out of shape when someone decides to start talking about cliques.

it is like it is some kind of hot button topic with some people here.

Why do you want to deny that you belong somewhere anyway. You people confuse me so I fart in your general direction.

Don't forget, not even soy milk is safe to drink. Drink only bottled water that you get from a mountain stream in the indes on a night that is close to freezing but not quite because that is when the water is at its prime. I have evidence. Would you like to know more?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:20 / 18.09.03
"Jerk Fear!"

"I fart in your direction!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!

This guy is fucking hilarious! Let's make him a moderator in the Comedy forum!
 
 
illmatic
17:26 / 18.09.03
A lot of truth in both posts by Jack there. Whatever-his-name-is-now's initial complaint was against Haus, and I think the comments in Jack's former post could be taken to apply to the fearsome Hausmonster. However, accusations that such behaviour is trolling, equivalent to the infamous "sexless backpacker" are pretty nonsensical - K. was pushed Tom to the point of threatening to shut the board down and cared little for the board other than a place to throw his shit around in public and have tantrums. Haus, on the other hand, has made a hell of a lot of postive and amusing contributions to the board, pushed a lot of debates back on topic and is clearly committed to Bareltih developing as a community.

He may well be very rude on occasion, I'm perfectly happy to recognise this, but y'know... get the fuck over it. There's plenty of other people on here to conserve with. The current accusations - initially of of moderator abuse, now we seemed to have moved onto cliqueness, strike me in some ways as just one individuals attempts to perpeptuate a long lasting feud. Not saying there's no room for improvement and change but I don't feel Barbelith is somehow fundamentally flawed, either in it's in or out groups or moderation structures.
 
 
Tom Coates
17:29 / 18.09.03
Agreed.
 
 
illmatic
18:28 / 18.09.03
One last point: while I agree that there should be a space to level accusations of bullying or harrassment (allegations that have been made against Mod-whatever-he's-called in the past,lest we forgot). Threads in Policy being the best place I'd guess, there's all the question of redress - even if we were to agree that x is beating up on y, something very unlikely in itself, ultimately what can we do about it? There seem to be only two punitive options open to mods (or moe accuraely, Tom): a) deletion of offensive/abusive posts or b) barring from the board. To judge the first seems a prety tough call to me, someimes anyway, especially in the kind of lengthy row Haus and Mod two were caught up in over in Policy, and the second is a kind of nuclear bomb option, that's only going to get used in very extreme cases. No options, really.

I am of the opinion that this open structure is a Good Thing, really. It leaves us with no choices but to either get on, resolve conflicts etc or ignore each other. Easy enough really.
 
 
000
18:38 / 18.09.03
"Haus, on the other hand, has made a hell of a lot of postive and amusing contributions to the board, pushed a lot of debates back on topic and is clearly committed to Bareltih developing as a community."

But mod, on the other hand, has never done anything good for this community, always slags off everyone, bnever is nice to a single member and was the worst moderator ever because he might have actually enjoyed doing it?

I don't understand why people are treating him so unfairly.

Yes he had a bit of a wig out but hasn't he also made positive contributions to the board and is sometimes kind of funny and all that stuff you write about Huas.

I really am starting to think Haus and mod are twins.

Which great twins of mythology are they?

Rehmus and Romulus.

Cain and Able.

or others

Best argumetn doesn't get a fart in their general direction.
 
 
illmatic
18:51 / 18.09.03
I wasn't trying to make a comaparsion between the two of'em - I was thinking specifcally of Mod's compasion of Haus with Andrew. i can't remember which thread it was win but this seemed to be the crux of his complaints. I'd say Mod has made a positive contribution also, can be funny, seems ok when he's not wiggin out. And has a nice hamster.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:02 / 18.09.03
"A bit of a wig-out" is one thing.

Day upon day of hostile, paranoid ranting; dozens of calculated-to-annoy spam posts; hysterical accusations of fascism; and all manner of infantile screaming, crying, and wetting oneself—well, that's another.

Everyone has their lapses; but the depth, duration, and vitriol of M's recent "wig-out" seem to me to be beyond the bounds of what may be forgiven of a moderator.

Of course, some of us have... different ideas as to what constitutes acceptable social behavior.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:12 / 18.09.03
Well, yes. Modzero was fairly clearly attempting either to make life so unpleasant for me that I left Barbelith, or so unpleasant for Tom that he closed it down. What is probably more disturbing in the longer term is that he has invited the sexless backpacker and any other trolls who happen to be passing to hang out in his clubhouse, which rather hilariously he claims is devoted to monitoring and righting abuse on Barbelith. It's pretty chucklesome

Obviously, I will now start a thread demanding that he be cast out of Barbelith as he has moved to moderate those posts in which he reaches hands across the world to our troll chums, in clear defiance of the fact that it will affect the sense of the discussion around him. Just like...erm...didn't happen here. But might have.

Of course, he was only joking anyway. And if you are unhappy with his behaviour it is because you have no sense of humour.

Does any of this sound familiar? I'm hoping he's still on his way to an even keel, but right now he could do with having a serious think about his conduct.
 
 
Seth
19:29 / 18.09.03
The Hamptons (as christened by the Brighton lot) are pretty inclusive for a clique. Plus there's quite a blurred line between oursleves, the Brightoners and the Londoners in places. And it's about to get a lot more blurred! Maybe there's just one massive South East of England clique running everything....
 
 
bio k9
20:36 / 18.09.03
When did Jack Fear come back? We missed you, Jack!

[Now, for Flyboys amusement, make me cry.]
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:52 / 18.09.03
The concept of the 'Dominating Barbelith Clique', in my opinion, stems from a combination of three things:

a) your profile as a poster - how often you post, how large your presence is on the board on a day to day basis, how often your name crops up in threads - which in turn extends to how often you're barbequoted, mentioned in a barbelust/love thread, etc.

b) having met other posters in real life - being friends, or drinknig buddies, or both, with other high profile posters means that others give you the benefit of the doubt when reading your posts. Fact. You are unlikely to be 'shouted down', as it's being put at the moment. Kneejerk reactions to your posts by other high profile posters will be few and far between, and certainly less aggressive. I call this the 'handshake' concept of online socialisation, and it's pretty well accepted by all as being the case, I think.

c) being in basic agreement with other high profile posters about matters fundamental to Barbelith (the war in Iraq, the Israel/Palestine farrago, music and comics, to name only a few).

Crucially, however, it is the individual's perception of all of the above points that define the DBC. This, Mr Fear, is why it is at once a defined group and an amorphous mass. So the question of actually identifying members is infected with the Subjectivity Worm right from the off.

Most who posit the existence of the DBC would agree that, for example, Flyboy and Haus belong to it (and, for the record, there's no shame in belonging to it. As has often been stated, and as I believe to be the case, vociferous opponents of the clique are such because they don't feel they're a part, would like to be a part, and feel excluded from being a part). For my part, I feel that grant has always been a part, but on the outer edge - however, for me, after he came down to the UK to visit in 2001, he moved more towards the centre (the 'handshake' aspect). The artist formerly known as kooky mojo used to be at the throbbing heart of the clique - however, a self-imposed absence from the board over the last while, and from the frequent London Barbemeets, has moved her towards the outer edge again. Lower profile, you see. Some of you newer folks might not even recognise the mighty engine of party-power that The Mojo represented on Barbelith back in the day (and may again).

Jack Fear? He's a tricky customer, and not just because of his light fingers and powerful sexual equipment. People have referred to him as 'The Daddy' so often that he's now reappropriated the monicker for his own fiendish ends. And yet, as I remember him forlornly saying one day a couple of years ago, he's unlikely to ever meet the vast majority of us in the flesh. I think of him as the DBC's Jupiter - massive, with many moons, a constant presence and huge influence on the Underground - yet kind of on the periphery of the DBC. Giant, uninhabitable, yet with hidden secrets and his own terrfying gravity.

Nick? He hardly ever goes to Barbemeets... and he's not that often in agreement with the more easily recognised members of the clique, certainly not enough to be seen as a political ally. Yet his close friendship with the elusive Tom, mother of all that is prefixed Barbe, marks him as... something. Hmmm. Nick's a tricky one.

Them's my thoughts, anyway. Feel free to rubbish them to your hearts content.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:05 / 18.09.03
Yes, but could Ultra Magnus beat up Skeletor?

Which is rubbishing to an extent, but more simply a recognition that any such attempt to sketch in the relationships between people in this way, to decide a "Clique Quotient", is going to be incomplete and a bit pointless. Is Anna de Logardiere part of the clique? How about Our Loady of the Flowers? Or Bill Posters? Regularly poster, always up for a drink. Set? If you run the "x is a friend of y is a friend of z" paradigm, then ultimately almost everyone is part of the clique - you'd certainly have to work quite hard to be outside it.

Also, what exactly is dominating about such a Dominating Barbelith Clique? Is Grant dominating, for example? The idea that if you know somebody and like them then you are more likely to try to think through what they might be saying before setting phasers to stun is reasonable, but doesn't really make for cliquishness per se - generally, a clique, and certainly the idea of a Dominating Barbelith Clique, is about the abuse of power to benefit other members - see recent speculations on my ability to control the minds of my fellow moderators through the power of clique. If by "clique" we just mean "group of people who like each other and are on Barbelith a fair amount", then it's going to be a hard accusation to fight, or particularly to want to.
 
 
straylight
03:23 / 19.09.03
Flyboy can be in my Oregon clique as well as all the other cliques he's part of, as he's the only Barbelithian I've ever met - even if that was in NYC. Wait, isn't there another Oregonian? Rage, was that you? Listen, I'll take charge of the West Coast, and we shall lead cliques to fame and glory. Right? Right?

Sorry. Let me rephrase. I am in that "posts sometimes with smart things, and more often, though still rarely, with very little to say" clique. I am unclear as to whether we are the majority or the minority 'round here.

Wait, I want suds in my clique too, 'cause I like her d-land page.

I think I've just turned this into my own personal kickball game. Who will be picked last?
 
 
bio k9
04:11 / 19.09.03
I've already got the West side locked down. Sorry, man.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:41 / 19.09.03
JtBod and others: to a large extent, I think all the attempts to join the dots on who knows who and so on are beside the point - I think that for the people who complain about cliques, the important thing is that there is a bunch of people who agree about certain things on the board, and allegedly attempt to 'enforce' that position one way or another... Speculation that they are close pals as well as co-conspirators usually follows - or even what has become for me the depressingly familiar allegation that two or more people who hold the same position are lovers (gay lovers) - but if this speculation maps onto real life accurately I think this is often coincidental.

To address Jack Fear's comments about cutting people slack if you know/like then - I think this is something that everyone does, and while it *is* good to be self-aware about these things and watch yourself for how this may shade into unfair treatment of others if you are a Moderator, I can't think of an example of how the latter has happened. Certainly, if Haus (for example) decided to start one or more threads in the Conversation the basis of which was "hey, who else thinks [insert poster here] is an idiot?", I would move to have said thread(s) deleted. And it's not like there haven't been fierce disagreements between people who like/respect each other a great deal - facial piercings, anyone?

Generally, though, I feel we've had this conversation more than enough times in the past to render it redundant. I don't know why I'm even joining in with this thread, as it was clearly initially a load of old dog-spam. Oh, it's cos some people were nice about me. Okay then. Cheers.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:49 / 19.09.03
Now Haus and Flyboy adamantly deny that there's any kind of clique but I'm going to stick my oar in here. While I'm not necessarily supporting the clique thing I do believe that when I first came on to the board I recognised a power structure. Perhaps that's not the best way to put it- I recognised that both of you have a certain amount of influence, that it does come across as cliquey and that it's about bloody time that you recognised that people regard you both as fundamental to the 'clique'.

I know that you're not conspirators hiding away, that it's ridiculous to name you the DBC but that does not change the fact that it is remarkably easy to perceive you in this way. Whenever people try to begin to tell you that you two in particular come across this way you begin to deny it adamantly to the extent that no one can get a word in edgeways but people still think it.

The conversation is not redundant because you still aren't reading this and taking it in. Fucking cliquesters
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:50 / 19.09.03
Haus: "...generally, a clique, and certainly the idea of a Dominating Barbelith Clique, is about the abuse of power to benefit other members..."

Um, well, no. That may be your perception of what a clique is, and it certainly appears to be how others perceive the effects of a Dominating Barbelith Clique, but it's not what a clique actually is.

A clique is defined as a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons, especially one held together by common interests or pursuits. The above was a tongue-in-cheek attempt to quantify how this idea of a clique dominating Barbelith might work within the definition. Christ's sake, dude, I likened Jack Fear to Jupiter. Not being serious.

However, I think that the majority of the issue surrounding this idea of a Barbeclique is based around your misunderstanding. You and many others have this idea that a clique is fundamentally a bad thing, and so all the fracas surrounding the possibility of a Barbeclique results - more emotional sound effects on both sides, to borrow a phrase, resulting from this misperception.

The resentment over cliques of any shape or form seems to stem from one or both of
i) non-members disliking the exclusivity involved with the clique, which is my point in my post above
ii) non-members perceiving that members of a clique are abusing their apparent power over non-members in order to benefit members, or the clique itself, which is your point, I believe.

The former is a perfectly natural reaction to perceived cliquish behaviour. 'We want to belong, we feel we are barred from belonging, we feel excluded'.

The latter is also a perfectly natural reaction to the former, and probably becomes cumulative over time, especially as, like I say, Barbelith attracts emotionally fragile alternative thinkers.

There may be a Barbeclique. Equally, there may not be - it's really a kind of 'eye of the beholder' issue. And that's the point, surely - large numbers of posters, over time, have raised this issue in a somewhat surly manner. They feel excluded. They clearly feel resentful over it. And instead of projecting reassurance, deliberate attempts to include, listening to objections, they're coldly and incredulously (and often rudely) told that such a clique doesn't exist, they have no evidence of same, and their argument doesn't stand up. To shut up, in other words. Then they feel shouted down. By the clique. It's happened in this thread.

See, you (and I mean you plural, not Haus) need to switch mental gears, here, and I know that this is difficult for some posters, who've got a lot of ego invested in their 'fictionsuits' and how they're perceived. This is the thing - it's not about you. It's about them. If people keep feeling excluded or bullied, and you keep telling them to grow up, or go somewhere else, or get used to it, or whatever sweet little antisocial soundbite Flux and Bio are trotting out this week, then you will alienate people that otherwise might contribute interesting things to this community you seem to have such a hard-on for. And the accusations of 'cliquish behaviour' won't go away, much as they've stuck around for the last two years of the board, and probably longer.

Of course, if all you want out of Barbelith is somewhere to swan around in your virtual hard-man-of-the-internet battlesuit, wittily batting aside retorts with some withering sarcasm and barely concealed insults, then you can go right ahead. I don't really see the objective difference between that pose and Warren Ellis' Old Bastard pose, to be honest, but if you want to be that person, it's your dime. As has been pointed out about Ellis, it's vain, antisocial and terribly egocentric, but then Barbelith does tend to attract emotionally fragile alternative thinkers, and you're no different. Are you?
 
 
sleazenation
12:04 / 19.09.03
Clearly what we need is a full list of names dates and times when people who posted here have met, for how long and what they discussed - and not even then will we be free of cliquedom!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:08 / 19.09.03
I am my own clique. And I've been plotting. Yes, plotting, I tell you.

Seriously, though, to go with what JtB said about cliques not necessarily being a bad thing... does anyone actually think it would be POSSIBLE, let alone desirable, to have a 2000+ strong community in which subgroups of whatever kind (sorry, the word "clique" is just not looking like a real word anymore) don't arise?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:17 / 19.09.03
Not that it's any of my business, but I'll second Anna de L. in that when you arrive here, and lurk around a bit, there are some suits who clearly have a distinct, er... 'voice of authority', for want of a better term...but isn't that true of any board, anyway?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
12:26 / 19.09.03
why is there no chicago clique?

Dude, I have TRIED!!! When I lived in Chicago, some of you may remember many (mostly) ill-fated attempts for ChicagoBarbeMeets. Some happened but most didn't, sadly. But hey! I'm coming for a visit in November and am definitely meeting with Persephone - perhaps a barbemeet then?

But, I digress!

Cliques: Well, I think it's not so much cliques as some people have been here a long, long time and (virtually) "know" each other, some people have met and liked each other off the board, and hang out together outside of Barbelith, and some people have been on the board a long time, "know" a lot of people AND have met alot of other Barbeloids that they hang out with outside of Barbelith.

Does that mean that, for example, Haus can get away with more online than a newer poster who says something almost identical (not possible to replicate Haus I'm sure but for the sake of argument)? I'm pretty sure it does. We (old timers) read a post and think, "Oh, that's just Haus being Haus" as I think JackF said. A new person says it and we may not let it simply go.

That said, I don't think such behavior is meant as an overt "give the newbies a hard time." Rather, I think it's more like when you start a new job say, or go to any new environment it takes time to get to know the people and the culture, the in-jokes etc. It's not personal, and I don't think it's meant to be exclusionary.

I remember when *I* joined this board back in, I think December of 2000, noting a number of obvious references to in-jokes and such and yes, I felt (a bit) excluded, but in time, with a lot of prolific posting I became privy to the in-jokes etc.

These days, I hang out regularly with the London Clique, but I don't have much time to post as much any more due to my internet access being fairly limited. So maybe,on the interwebnet I'm out of the loop, but IRL I am in it? DOn't know. But, don't really lose any sleep over it, and I don't think you should either (lose any sleep about BarbeCliquishness).

What I really want to know is, am I still BarbeRoyalty???
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:24 / 19.09.03
Always.
 
 
Quantum
13:40 / 19.09.03
I have a question on perceived exclusion- what causes it? I see 'clique members' fighting with each other more than anyone else, I don't see much hostility toward posters because of their exclusion etc.
I ain't being postmodern or ironic or any of those things, I don't get the whole exclusion thing, I really don't- maybe I haven't been around long enough to understand it, maybe I am too insensitive to notice.
Why is it people feel excluded?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:48 / 19.09.03
Cherry Bomb you're my Queen!!
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:52 / 19.09.03
Perhaps people don't realise the extent to which everyone here is isolated. Looking at my own post above, you could imagine that I spoke with confidence as to the opinions of others on the board, and that I felt I had in some way a legitimate social right to answer Cherry's question. Actually, I know almost no one on the board except Tom, and have no idea whether she can still be considered (or actually, was ever considered) Barbelith Royalty. Nor do I know what that means beyond a basic understanding of the two words used to make the term.

In fact, my confidence derives from the fact that I'm pretty sure 'Barbelith Royalty' doesn't mean anything at all - so I can appoint whoever I like. Of course, it's possible someone else will have views on the matter, in which case I can challenge them to a duel with potatoes. I assess the chances of anyone being seriously offended by my presumption as low, and the worst that can happen is that I have to apologise profusely. In the meantime, I'm prepared to take the risk that Cherry had something very specific in mind and will be peeved with me for what could look like mockery.

Dangerous world we live in.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
13:57 / 19.09.03
Dangerous world we live in

Too Right

I like you
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:01 / 19.09.03
*do. not. sing. do. not...* Love is in the air, I can feel it all around. Love is in the air, every sight and every... *damn*
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
14:15 / 19.09.03
I like you too Nick, if only for the fact that towards the end of your last post you started to sound like the plummeting sperm whale in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Ok, carry on.
 
  

Page: 1(2)34

 
  
Add Your Reply