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Let's Talk, Barbelith

  
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Ganesh
09:22 / 18.09.03
It would make more sense to me to specifically encourage people to write topic abstracts to enable the search function, period.

That would do nicely.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:39 / 18.09.03
Persephone I agree emphatically with your points about distributed moderation, specifically as many people as needed as mods & no more than one assignment per person and I don't think that moderators should have any kind of mission to lead their particular forum to greater and better heights.

When I came to barbelith it was like a dream had just appeared. I'd been thinking about distributed moderation for about three years but I'd found nowhere that had even attempted to put it to use. It's a fantastic idea but a very intense system and there's no way round it. People don't always have a will to co-operate. The things is that here it is beginning to work but it still feels like the very start- the system's in its infancy. The general atmosphere of the Internet doesn't often deal with co-operation because people tend to be strangers. It feels like we're floating towards the point where we can work round it but it's such a huge and diverse expanse now- nine years ago it was a much smaller and friendlier community. It was easier to run in to people with the same things going on but there was a hierachy edging in to place that's now full blown. It's taken almost a decade to evolve in to this environment that truly fits in to the modern Western world. The Internet is like this big hierachical, capitalist dream and the thing that I love about barbelith is that you can question that dream and there is an attempt to spread the power out.

Hopefully the moderation system here is going to continue to grow until there are fewer problems with it. I think our feet are stuck in the right place with this and maybe it's not the right time to push it on, push it further, maybe there isn't enough of a bond between the people on this board to spread the moderation out that far but damn, it would be great if there was sometime in the near future.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
12:03 / 18.09.03
I think Persephone and bengali in platforms share my views about the board - I don't consider myself part of this community any longer, and view it as a place to catch up with people I know in real life, and occasionally read something fun or interesting. I couldn't care less if it folded tomorrow, as long as I didn't lose touch with anyone groovy, and I have no real interest in any plans for the future.

There can be an 'oppressive' atmosphere at times - in this very thread, designed for people to pipe up with their problems or grievances without fear of slapping, you've got several high profile posters, as Nick put it, advising that anyone posting could potentially incur their displeasure. People don't put themselves in others' shoes enough - that's true the world over, and people don't often consider how powerful words are. Here, words are pretty much ALL you are, and status is conveyed through others' attitudes towards you, your attitudes towards others, etc. And because this is an immediate medium, people post immediately, often only taking time to order their words, not their thoughts.

So you get high profile posters, who also happen to be moderators, because that's how Tom chooses them - high profile posters who've been more or less proven to be trustworthy - shouting their mouths off, casually insulting people, without realising that they DO have status on the board. Which gives status to their words. To quote an old maxim: "with great power comes great responsibility".

I'm not saying I've never done or never do this. I'm as guilty as anyone of rushing in with a heated, sometimes off-hand remark. I try to keep a handle on that, but I'm not perfect, naturally. The last few months, I've given myself a bit of free rein with people who are more high profile and (in my opinion) abusing it, to be honest - you know, rationalising knee-jerk ad hominem attacks because I'm on the side of 'the little guy'. Utter rubbish, obviously, but it keeps me warm at night.

I don't believe that the moderators abuse their position, and I haven't seen any real signs of this. I think deleting threads and posts is dangerous (cf all the paranoid reactions when this has happened recently) and ill-considered, but not an abuse. I've come to this belief following two occasions where I've deleted posts as a moderator (back before I quit due to a bloodthirsty form of ennui), and then questioned my own actions and reasons for doing so.

I can understand people getting antsy about some of this stuff. If you're worried about high profile, high status posters shouting/slapping you down, and then you notice that a lot of them are moderators... Barbelith tends to attract emotionally fragile alternative thinkers, if you haven't noticed. And in a recent survey, us emotionally fragile alternative thinkers cited a mild paranoia as one of our most useful survival traits (some would argue that you can't live in an urban environment without it).

But there is far too much of a blase brushing aside of people's problems with posting here. I resolved mine by withdrawing. Not everyone wants to do the same. Some would like to co-exist without friction, it appears. And it's not the board that needs changing in order for them to do that, the mechanics or the philosophy, it's the attitudes of the people who make up the membership.

It is true that people leave the board in a fit of pique and return. It is not necessarily true that they return as the same poster, or occupy the same function on Barbelith. Joking that 'you'll be back' when someone decides to leave and makes a melodramatic announcement may amuse a few, but it's missing the point. And some, I would also point out, don't return at all. Sometimes threads are posted saying how much they're missed...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:30 / 18.09.03
To be honest with you I'm uncomfortable with the moderation system as it stands at the moment. I wanted to be a moderator because I do care about this place, or rather the system, because I've been on the Internet for nearly 10 years and to an extent I see this place as evolving in to something that the entire thing needs. That doesn't mean that I agree with a lot of the other moderators, that I like the idea of deleting posts at all or modifying them and I do wish people would think before they hit the button. Sometimes I post the wrong thing at the wrong time but I always consider what I'm writing- in the last few days I've put my thoughts down so many times and then hit the back browser.

Barbelith is an experiment for me, to see if this can be made to work without the paranoia and that's why I care and often the silliness of it all makes me smile. I wish the moderators were a little better fitted to the forums they reside over because it all seems a bit dysfunctional right now. I don't like the idea of these transparent moderators- who were once administrators- simply because they're there only to fulfil a janitorial purpose and while I know that it's necessary I'd definitely prefer people who fit each forum a little better.

I think it's a shame that you're not a moderator Jack. When you post I generally agree with you and a moderator who argues with all the others isn't a bad thing. I'd love to see Bengali come back and moderate Art, Fashion and Design since she's like my clothes-obsessed partner in arms but those are just my little desires.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:58 / 18.09.03
Nick said: I suspect part of the issue is the question of 'offensive', 'trollish' and most important 'inappropriate'. Those descriptions hinge on a series of more or less explicit perceptions of the world and of what is or is not allowable on the board. Those perceptions vary from person to person - it's possible that moderators will tend to have slightly different perceptions of them from other posters.

Nick - your first point is taken, as the definition of terms like "inappropriate" are indeed the rub. However I think that between the FAQ, Wiki, and various Policy threads easily available, it's easy to see a) what is meant by this, and b) that it is not just some arbitrary definition based on the personal taste of a small elite. I must confess that I also think that there should be some kind of entry-level concept of acceptability which does not require explanation - such as don't start a thread about how funny homeless people look or what bitches all women are... Which in turn is not to say that such posts would instantly merit deletion or anything else, because I don't get to decide these things on my own, and quite rightly so.

Incidentally, I understand that you'd rather not think in terms of 'shouted down', but you should also realise that by saying you find it annoying, you're effectively issuing a warning to anyone who might be about to say that they've felt 'shouted down' that they will incur your displeasure. Since the point of this thread is to bring to the fore any sense that people feel compelled to refrain from saying certain things, I'd appreciate it if you'd squash your annoyance.

Annoyance may have been the wrong word. I was wanting to register a concern that the phrase can be unhelpful. If this is to be a thread for people to raise their concerns about moderation and the possible misuse of that power to exclude people from the board unfairly, it seems useful to respond to those concerns in this thread. Which is all I'm interested in doing: I was merely stating that I think there is a big difference between being "shouted down" if it simply means being disagreed with, and having one's posts deleted, or a campaign of actual bullying. I think this is a distinction that needs to be made, not least of all because bullying or abuse of moderator powers are serious allegations, and it's important to separate any claims that this has occurred from grievances people may have regarding their opinions on the board being unpopular, etc.

To suggest that there is even the shadow of a threat, or warning, in my post above is fairly ridiculous. I suspect I ought to be offended, but I'm merely baffled. What do you imagine I'm going to do to people who continue to use the term? I'd never even consider deleting a post for that reason alone, and I'm amazed anyone could think otherwise. Speaking of which...

I do want moderators expressing how the feel - but I don't want moderators expressing themselves in a way which could play to the notion that mods sneak around in black capes knifing posters in alleyways like Venetian bravos. The suggestion has been made that there are posters out there who don't feel able to say what they would want to because they think they'll be stigmatised and marginalised. If that's the case, I don't want even the shadow of it in this discussion, because it obviates the point of the exercise - which is that anyone concerned about something can step up and say it without finding the message board equivalent of a horse's head on their pillow.

Knives in the back? Horses' heads on pillows? These images strike me as absurd, and I'm very curious to know where anyone could find even a trace of this in what I've posted, or what any other moderator has posted here (with the exception of modog himself, who keeps hinting that something is coming, some kind of attempt to forcibly change Barbelith...). Believe it or not Nick, I think your tendency in these kind of situations to play Doctor to Barbelith's ailing patient is often beneficial, and may well be so in this case - I think it's good that Persephone's points have been made, to pick just one example. But I also think it's possible to give credence (however unintentionally) to claims which the majority of people recognise as spurious...

Must respond to JtBod though, will be back.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:07 / 18.09.03
apologies for [threadrot] but I can't help reading Nick's nick, er, as Nick seeks Pasanda.

Which is a worthy calling.

[/threadrot]
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:09 / 18.09.03
[rot] Woah woah woah Bengali, if I'm not allowed to rot neither are you. Get back to Art Fashion and Design and post something worthy for me to read [/rot]
 
 
000
16:13 / 18.09.03
You are all speaking at once while taking turns.

You do not listen to one another.

You only talk at one another.

No wonder this place is such a mess!

I fart in your general direction.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:45 / 18.09.03
000, everything you've said in that last post is untrue, I don't even believe you have farted toward your computer. I refer you to what Flyboy said earlier about 'entry level concepts of acceptability' and you'll get people taking any complaints you make about the place a lot more seriously if you're able to show one good reason why you should be here in the first place.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:48 / 18.09.03
Fly:

To suggest that there is even the shadow of a threat, or warning, in my post above is fairly ridiculous.

You, naturally, have confidence in your own good intentions. This thread is in part an exploration of the idea that not everyone shares our trust in our own benevolence.

I suspect I ought to be offended, but I'm merely baffled.

Sort of a paralepsys... You're doing it again. The subtext of that statement - especially to someone who was already intimidated by you - could be "if you pursue this line of discussion, I may get angry with you: modify your approach". I have no way of knowing if you're looking mildly at your screen or scowling over your keyboard.

What do you imagine I'm going to do to people who continue to use the term?

Given the context, you might shout them down. Incidentally, that's a term which has come up enough that I no longer feel willing to dismiss it out of hand. Obviously, it's true that all this is just words on a screen. The same argument can be applied to the most vicious trolling, however, so it doesn't really hold water. A lot of schoolyard bullying amounts to little more than name-calling. I'm getting a trickle of PMs from people who do feel they've been bullied occasionally. So whatever this discussion is, it's not ridiculous.

These images strike me as absurd

They were supposed to be light-hearted, but thought-provoking. Did you feel they were aggressive? My mistake. But I've seen just enough reluctance to speak openly that I'm unhappy and unnerved by it. Those examples are about an oppressive atmosphere, a sense of dire consequence. It doesn't matter, in our context, that 'dire consequence' could mean being insulted and stigmatised for giving a 'wrong answer' or holding a 'wrong opinion'. It's still dire.

I also think it's possible to give credence (however unintentionally) to claims which the majority of people recognise as spurious...

And I hope that's what I'm doing. On the other hand, what the majority recognise as spurious and what the minority know is true can be a revealing comparison.
 
 
grant
17:52 / 18.09.03
bigging up Persephone and Dialing Mass.

That's all.


----

No, wait. That's not all. There's something I can't articulate and probably shouldn't even try, but one of the reasons why there aren't more mods is that not that many people come forward whenever Tom asks for volunteers. And some who he picks and asks refuse the pleasure.
I'm not sure I should say any more because I'm a former admin, so there could be a perception of a conflict of interest or whatever.

----

And JtB makes sense, especially when referring to the personalities who come here. This observation was reflected a few months back with the not-that-successful introduction of "Non-Debate Threads." It'd be nice if they worked, but I don't think they can.

----

OK. That's all.
 
 
HCE
17:58 / 18.09.03
For what it's worth, this thread has done more to dispel discord than anything else I've read.
 
 
Seth
20:41 / 18.09.03
I'm pretty much in agreement with JtB. This place is the sum of the kind of people who are attracted to come here. The geekiness, snarky comments, insecurity and social ineptness are to be expected along with the passion, creativity, ideas and geekiness (note that geekiness gets a look in on both sides).

I've often noticed a general disappointment that this place isn't Utopia. That's good, in a way, as it gives us incentive to improve, but also bad in that we're sometimes not as accepting of each other as we should be. It'd be nice to strike a balance that didn't teeter this far towards paralysed self-analysis and drama queen episodes, but that's again unlikely given the makeup of the board.

Paraphrasing Chesterton: What's wrong with Barbelith? I am.

As far as deletion goes: I'd be surprised if any moderator enjoys it. Last time I spent a day and a half agonising over it, and got advice from at least three people before I came to the decision. And May's right: I sent everyone involved a copy of their posts via PM, and I made sure that everyone knew that I could PM them a copy of the lost content in its entirety if they wished to read it. Took a lot of work, but I think it's necessary. Maybe mods should just save the page before deleting it and email it out as a file - that would save quite a lot of hassle (but it would involve our more private members having to share their email address).

I copped a lot of flak for it nonetheless (some of which continued for over a month afterwards via PM). It wasn't a happy experience. However, it did help the people involved to lay off each other's throats (at least until the next round), and it saved a thread that became something rather special. It was worth it, in other words - and the required number of Magick forum moderators/admins seemed to agree.

I can't be all things to all people - no one can. I think it's unreasonable to expect a bunch of people on an internet message board to all act like Christ surfing on a sunbeam. But there is a case for toning down some of the snarkiness, and I'm as guilty as anyone.








Heh heh heh. I said private members.
 
 
Dr Doom
00:15 / 19.09.03
Would you allow me to pipe in on this thread? As it addresses what I personally see as the core problem with the current setup of the board.

What someone earlier said about a certain fundamental set of standards on the board is dead on. A certain way of thinking, sometimes called 'PC craziness,' sometimes 'snotty morals.' You know what I mean.

Fair enough, it's untimately Toms call. And what he believes is right dictates, through the moderation system, what is allowed and tolerated on the board. Because of this, there is an unspoken-of feeling that you have to watch what you say, and more importantly, how you say it, which is most definitley having an effect the same as Haus spoke of, regarding the personality of a poster shing through via their spellings in a post - To change it would give false representation - And I think the current moral standards here discourage the 'seemingly chaotic' style of some posters.

So does this site still support chaos? I remember it sort of used to, or, at least, the freedom to talk freely about things that most would view as chaotic/illogical in their proposals and style and worldviews?

Because that's free speech folks, and Barbelith maybe attatches too much worth to words to allow the words to ever be truly free.

free speech
 
 
bio k9
02:19 / 19.09.03
one of the reasons why there aren't more mods is that not that many people come forward...

This just isn't true. There was a thread about lack of mods in the comics forum and several people volunteered. Result? No new mods. I realise I may not be deemed up to snuff but the other three would have been good solid choices (as they already moderate other forums) and the comics forum could use some help.
 
 
bio k9
02:23 / 19.09.03
Also, the subject of mods correcting spelling has come up several times recently and I'd like to add my 2 bits:


I would be somewhat offended if a mod took it upon himself to go through my posts and correct my spelling. I have access to a spellchecker and dictionary.com just like everyone else. If I'm hard to understand or look like an uneducated ass you can feel free to skip over my posts. You are here to help keep the community running smoothly not act as spelling and grammar police.
 
 
bio k9
02:29 / 19.09.03
I may have to retract that first post...did flux become a comics mod before the mods became mods of everything? When did Mordant become a comic mod?

Im just confused.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:04 / 19.09.03
I'm a comic mod?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:50 / 19.09.03
MC:

I'm a comic mod?

Give that woman a cigar for demonstrating the hunger for power which writhes like a Serpent in the moderator community.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:04 / 19.09.03
I was made a moderator of the comics forum about a month or so ago, after I complained about the near total lack of moderation happening in that forum. Now we've gone from almost no moderation to more than enough. Fine by me.

Because of this, there is an unspoken-of feeling that you have to watch what you say, and more importantly, how you say it,

This is pretty much how it is in any polite society. Frankly, if there's a vibe on Barbelith that keeps certain people from saying completely ridiculous and offensive things, or at least makes most people feel as though they should probably think their opinions through before posting anything, then I think we're doing the right thing.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
17:10 / 19.09.03
Give that woman a cigar for demonstrating the hunger for power which writhes like a Serpent in the moderator community.

I am in AWE of that sentence.
AWE

I tip my hat to you, Athos the brooding, brave, and natural leader of our clique. I have decided that I am in fact our D’Artagnon, so you and Flyboy get to recruit our Porthos.
 
 
000
17:41 / 19.09.03
after something of an object lesson in the dangers of a bad mod, I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Are you takling about what we’ve learnd about yu. I think you are a bad mod and pick on many people and rarely say sorry and rarely meanit when you do.

You aren’t nice and I’v somethng fore you:

[fart]
 
 
000
18:27 / 19.09.03
my primary suit having been deleted

It is too bad all your suits haven’t been deleted you mean and urepentent person. I don't like you today much Huas and the voisec in my head are provoking it I think. Please be patient with me as I am acting a bit out of sorts.

I wishj I could sleep...

Little of me is barbelith because i eat properly and you are what you eat.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:41 / 19.09.03
The tinny rattle of my €0:02c...

I'm extremely loath to get involved in all of this, since anything I say will immediately be dismissed as yet another attack from the Dread Barbelith Clique and will invite the attentions of our self-appointed revolutionaries. But it's either sit down and shut up like a good little girl, or wade on in and hope people can still read through the red mist.

Firstly I'd like to thank Bill for showing the gumption to actually set out his concerns, rather than making vague accusations and refusing to back them up. I disagree with much of what he had to say, but it would be hard for me to back up my position as much of the relevant data has been flushed down the pan. Bill (assuming you're reading this), I think I know which Magick thread you were referring to, although it's hard to be sure since you didn't provide a link. Your recollection is rather different than mine. My recollection (which may well be innaccurate and biased; memory is a subjective bugger) is as follows: Yes, there were a number of posts that got deleted, but to be fair this was done in as transparent a manner as possible. The moderator concerned stated that ze was going to be removing some of the more vitriolic posts, explained why, and took great care to PM the posters concerned with the contents of the posts. Ze also kept a record of the deleted material. Maybe it wasn't an ideal solution, but tempers then (as now) were running high and something had to be done to limit the damage.

Regarding the recent rash of deleted threads: I belive I understand why the deletions were requested. The perception (please note the word perception here) seems to have been that the threads represented an uncalled-for and escalating attack by one poster on another poster. I don't think that deleting the threads in question was terribly wise, which is why I chose to veto some of the later deletion requests. My thinking was that the threads should remain visible so that people could make up their own minds about the content and the intentions of the poster.

Unpleasant and (in my personal opinion) unacceptable as the content of the threads was, deleting them has only exacerbated the sense of unease, and given the poster further ammunition. Some see the deletions as proof positive that something is rotten in the state of Denmark, others as a missed opportunity to get to the bottom of a recurrent problem on Barbelith.

I have to say that in my mind, many of the comments that have been made here and in the "Case against a bad mod" thread suggest a strong bias against a particular moderator, which doesn't really seem rooted in fact but instead in assuption and a sort of reverse halo effect, where any post, thread or action by that moderator is immediately put in the worst light possible. The negative opinion of that moderator thus becomes self-fulfilling, a case of give a dog a bad name...

Regarding cliques, especially the DBC: Well, that looks like another case of self fulfillment, as anyone who says that there is no clique is immediately branded a member of said clique.

"Purple pixies are controlling people's brains!"
"Don't be silly, there's no such thing as purple pixies."
"Ah HA! They've got to you, too!"

There's no real way to break into that-- it's a closed loop.

In a sense, it's true-- there are groups within this group, as has been pointed out by JtB and others. But that's not evidence of a conspiracy, it's just the way that people are. Big groups tend to be chunky, rather than smooth, as people clump together. If you wanted to you could postulate the existance of, for example, a Magick clique: Look! They all know each other! They all make (generally) positive comments to each other's threads! They're all into this funny magick stuff! It's a clique!

And you'd be both dead wrong and right on the money.

Anyway... though this whole business has got pretty ugly, if we're prepared to give each other a little leeway, a bit of agreeing-to-differ, there could be a positive outcome in the end. Sometimes even the best argument isn't enough; all you can do is hope that your actions will speak for you.
 
  

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