BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Conversation >

Let's Talk, Barbelith

  
  

Page: 1(2)3

 
 
Slim
19:37 / 16.09.03
Two more things:

1) I mispelled "fascist" but I'm so against editing posts that I don't even edit my own.

2) It's hard to specify what gives people negative feelings towards this board. However, if someone were to ask me I'd say that Flux represents most of what is wrong with Barbelith. I'm not sure if I can get any more specific than that so there ya go.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:38 / 16.09.03
Well most of that is personal opinion and there's not much point in even trying to answer it. To some extent I agree with you but then Tom's had a lot of crap come to him so who can blame him if the majority of his moderator's are people he knows he can trust (I don't count myself among this number, I've never spoken to him irl or through online chat). His admins and multiple mod's just happen to be people he can rely on... not so much Haus, Mordant, Flyboy and Grant's BMW as Tom's reliable local bus.

I look at each forum and wonder why the hell it needs approximately 25 moderators anyways

We're all in different time zones and you need at least two people online at any given time in order to delete a thread or approve a modification. Seems pretty straightforward. Should you not trust the moderators more because there are so many of them?
 
 
Ganesh
19:39 / 16.09.03
It's a "status symbol" I've seriously considered - and am still considering - asking Tom to remove...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:39 / 16.09.03
Damn I just missed a chance to use the word 'supermod'. I'm so pissed off right now.
 
 
Slim
19:45 / 16.09.03
Anna- I don't mean to give Tom any crap. As I said earlier, I am in no way familiar with how Barbelith functions when it comes to mods and such. As for the being more trusting because there are more mods comment, tell me- do you trust cops more as their numbers increase or trust them less? I find my mistrust grow as the number of police grow because that's just one more man or women out there with power over me. The same principle can be applied at Barbelith.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:54 / 16.09.03
To clarify some of Slim's questions:

Moderators are appointed by Tom. It's not an ideal system, and there have been discussions on changing it. Unfortunately, after something of an object lesson in the dangers of a bad mod, I'm not sure where that leaves us. Mods who do a reliable job in one forum are often asked to help out in other fora also. That's also Tom's decision, but various threads of advice and suggestions tend to surround any exercise in creating more mods. Distributed moderation means that moderators are accountable to other moderators in the actions they propose. The more severe the action, the more moderators have to approve it, and one moderator disagreeing with it kills the proposed action. So, the more moderators you have the less likely it is that a severe action will get through, ironically. Hence more mods being more trustworthy - an action against the consensus of what is fair is more likely to be kicked out.

A fair bit of this is covered in the FAQ, which needs updating but is worth reading.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:49 / 16.09.03
I have to ask why you people would delete posts you consider "thread rot" or whatever polite term you have for a post that the powers-that-be deem unecessary. Seems kind of faschist to me but perhaps I'm missing something.

To the best of my knowledge, that happens in one of the thirteen(?) individual areas on the board - Headshop - and I've got a feeling the resons why are covered in the FAQ. A post threatening to pull a topic into a mess of one-on-one slaggings might also get pulled from Policy occasionally, but again, that's covered in the FAQ. In other cases the people posting in whatever thread are asked to keep it on topic and maybe start an off-shoot thread for the new discussion.

As on any other message board you happen across, really.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
00:13 / 17.09.03
Persphone: I'd appreciate being questioned as a person... rather than deconstructed as a text.

Slim: I find my mistrust grow as the number of police grow because that's just one more man or women out there with power over me. The same principle can be applied at Barbelith.

To recap if you're just now joining the discussion and don't want to start at the beginning:

Your guarantee of good faith [...] is not rules or process, it is the fact that the ultimate power here is in the hands of a man so breathtakingly honest [...] that it can make you rather uncomfortable.

If there are problems with Barbelith, if you don't feel able to speak freely, if you feel you'll be slammed or if you feel your post will vanish if you say what you want - let's get it out in the open. There are no hit squads lurking in this thread.

Is Barbelith a project or a place? Can you take it or leave it? Do you have to invest or can you just read the place? How do you see it, what do you feel?

Where does it hurt?
 
 
Persephone
02:49 / 17.09.03
I'm not sure why you're quoting me in this context. I wasn't looking for reassurances. I was inviting you to pick my brain, if you're interested.
 
 
Quantum
07:51 / 17.09.03
power over me
I don't feel that moderators have power. Certainly not power over me, I don't think that the ability to delete my posts on a message board if another moderator agrees they're out of line is any real threat to me.
But a lot of people do, moderaters are perceived as superusers as if it's something to aspire to. I appreciate Slim's point, and I think it's a common feeling to want a totally egalitarian style message board, and that mods have some sort of status that others don't.
But why? Why do people feel this way? Why are mods perceived as lording over us peons, when they are more often like janitors or binmen- they do the stuff we can't be bothered or don't want to do.

Personally I'd rather have moderators than an unregulated board, because although I am vehemently opposed to censorship I want a civilised community where people won't be racist, sexist etc. and that needs enforcing. If that gives them power over me, fair enough- if I don't like it, the internet is a big place after all, there are plenty of other sites...
 
 
000
08:28 / 17.09.03
If there's a problem, let's fix it, because we only get out of this place what we put in.

I am no longer speaking for myself, as the self treads an anodyne path before I have remixed myself sufficiently so, until I no longer can wear this suit; however, you (a general you, not you you, Nick) should probably look further into the differing degrees that differing posters invest into this place and how this sometimes can be a recipe for a disaster, which it -- ideally -- ought not be. I can understand simultaneously how Haus finds the current milieu an oppressive arena and how Mod3 can find himself in an oppressive area. However, couldn't most of the problem lie in the fact that -- aside from being two, or more, argumentative people are involved -- they do not invest proportionally and they are not equally sincere with every post they create? I am thinking here about Tom Coates' post about how some fiction suits could be explorations of the self, while not strictly being 100% of the self; to be honest, that is how I have viewed Haus for most of the time, I mean, I am not trying to second guess his real life originator, or how much of him truly believes in the dramedies he oft-times creates. However, I remember reading about a BarbeMeet where one of the participants had met Haus for the first time, and what this poster experienced as the disparity between the real person and the online Barbelith Haus self was palpable.

So, I can understand why mod3 expresses discomfort (and a lot else) at some posts which should -- ideally -- not have been as they were, and which drove him to commit what he did; and I can understand how Haus can be a victim to his own past and probably feel limited because of whatever happened, say, between him and the Planet of Sound.

-- 8 --
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:38 / 17.09.03
Persephone: I'm not sure why you're quoting me in this context. I wasn't looking for reassurances. I was inviting you to pick my brain, if you're interested.

Sorry - late night formatting. I wasn't replying to what you or slim had said, I was doing a king of 'previously, on Buffy' for the thread, but I edited the line which said so.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:09 / 17.09.03
I must admit that I get very annoyed by the phrase "shouted down" when used in the context of a discussion like this. As far as I can tell, the phrase is usually used by someone to describe what happens when they express a viewpoint and it is met with strong disagreement by either a large number of posters, or one or two very vocal/eloquent/belligerent posters. Now, few of us enjoy this happening, and some might even argue that Barbelith would be a more shiny happy place if it happened less often (although I consider it pretty much inevitable one way or another) - the point is that such occurences are in no way relevant to the issue at hand in this thread, as far as I'm concerned. This is because to the best of my knowledge, no post has ever been deleted on Barbelith solely because the point of view it expounded was in disagreement with a 'consensus of opinion' amongst the members of the board, the Moderators, or some secret inner group. Which isn't the same thing as being deleted because it's deemed to be offensive, or inappropriate, or trollish...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:24 / 17.09.03
Fly:

I suspect part of the issue is the question of 'offensive', 'trollish' and most important 'inappropriate'. Those descriptions hinge on a series of more or less explicit perceptions of the world and of what is or is not allowable on the board. Those perceptions vary from person to person - it's possible that moderators will tend to have slightly different perceptions of them from other posters.

Incidentally, I understand that you'd rather not think in terms of 'shouted down', but you should also realise that by saying you find it annoying, you're effectively issuing a warning to anyone who might be about to say that they've felt 'shouted down' that they will incur your displeasure. Since the point of this thread is to bring to the fore any sense that people feel compelled to refrain from saying certain things, I'd appreciate it if you'd squash your annoyance. You're not someone who doesn't feel able to state his views, after all.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:02 / 17.09.03
Nick, I rather think that a thread like this should have some moderator's expressing what they dislike about the board. After all a thread that begins with an open letter to everyone should include everyone. Moderator's are able to feel as threatened and ground out by posters as posters are by moderator's if not more so- normal posters don't get stalked. So why shouldn't he point these things out? His words are hardly unreasonable, if anything they're an insight in to the reaction to the activity in conversation over the last few days and that should be noted by everyone on the board.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:37 / 17.09.03
I do want moderators expressing how the feel - but I don't want moderators expressing themselves in a way which could play to the notion that mods sneak around in black capes knifing posters in alleyways like Venetian bravos. The suggestion has been made that there are posters out there who don't feel able to say what they would want to because they think they'll be stigmatised and marginalised. If that's the case, I don't want even the shadow of it in this discussion, because it obviates the point of the exercise - which is that anyone concerned about something can step up and say it without finding the message board equivalent of a horse's head on their pillow.
 
 
rizla mission
13:40 / 17.09.03
It seems to me that becoming a mod is like gaining some sort of status symbol, like a rich man and his BMW.

I don't think being a moderator really functions as a 'status symbol' at all.

Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but my motivation in becoming one was less "ha ha, I'm one of the big boys now!" and more "all this junk I post all day long must take up tons of bandwidth, I should really do something to help out..".

Having said that though, I'm about the most laissez faire moderator ever, so ,hey, who knows..
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:47 / 17.09.03
Considering I've just agreed moderation action #14,649, it feels more like a BMW that's had the engine swapped for an elastic band tied to a hamster in a wheel.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:00 / 17.09.03
I can't help but feel that this is the most questionable bout of soul-searching we've ever gone through, started as it was by a troll who has a personal dislike of Haus over issues which had nothing at all to do with Haus's actual abilities but just that dislike. I think the only change that should be made, for transparencies sake, is this list of actual alterations made to threads and posts, so that hopefully the more paranoid imaginings of some people on here can be laid to rest.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:09 / 17.09.03
Oh shut up Lada. We might as well have some fun deep and meaningfuls if people are going to strut around and throw shit at us. Just because you're not enjoying it doesn't mean you have to mess up everyone else's fun (for everyone, read me). Get in touch with your emotions and whine (vote Super-mod and take note that Illmatic is a big horrid bully who wants to steal my shoes. I hate him).
 
 
Unencumbered
14:28 / 17.09.03
My two penn'orth:

I've been around here for a while now, although I don't post all that often, and I have to say that, on the whole, the moderators have done an excellent job. Let us not forget that moderators are human beings and may make occasional errors of judgement. Point those out politely by all means, so that they can be corrected, but please let's be nice about it.

At the end of the day Barbelith is a benevolent dictatorship. Tom owns this site and has the power to pull the plug on it any time he likes. It's a testament to his generosity of spirit and good judgement that Barbelith was what it was and is what it is.

In short, I like it here. I like the people, I find many of the discussions interesting and worthwhile and I have no complaints.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:38 / 17.09.03
[the most total threadrot to ever rot this thread] Where's the hate people? You're all getting trite and sugar sick sweet. Are you all trying to get in to each others knickers or something? I swear I'm putting you all on my fight list. I'm going to take you all out! I know Illmatic's not the only one after my shoes! I've got my eye on that Cherry Bomb- I know we're the same size and she seems pretty dodgy to me! [/the most total threadrot to ever rot this thread]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:42 / 17.09.03
Anna, please don't do that. Believe it or not, this thread is actually yielding results, though not all of them are visible here.
 
 
HCE
15:51 / 17.09.03
Quantum writes: But why? Why do people feel this way? Why are mods perceived as lording over us peons, when they are more often like janitors or binmen- they do the stuff we can't be bothered or don't want to do.


And Why Don't You Listen to me? What is The Problem Lady? posits (not directly in response to Quantum): I can't help but feel that this is the most questionable bout of soul-searching we've ever gone through, started as it was by a troll who has a personal dislike of Haus over issues which had nothing at all to do with Haus's actual abilities but just that dislike.

There seems to be a general feeling on one side that the perception of status or clique formation is either unfathomable or else insincere. Does any group of people exist anywhere online or off where members don't form alliances, make friends, make enemies, rank each other, and vy for status? Status being such a non-concrete construction anyway, isn't it to be expected that the very few seemingly more concrete manifestations of it, such as the power (or the potential, if you prefer) to modify another person's post, would be viewed as some sort of elevation? Isn't it naive to think that no pecking order would be established? Just because those on the inside aren't aware of any tangible privilege, it doesn't mean that those on the outside don't experience some sort of real pressure to remain silent or phrase things in a particular way. This being a message board, the pressure obviously doesn't come in the form of a wooden ruler across the knuckles. Having felt it myself, I'd described as more like being scowled at by somebody you like and want to befriend. Not the end of the world, but a bit withering just the same.

The next thing that happens is that credentials are called into question. It is implied that people who feel this way are somehow too socially weak to fit in here, or that they're malignant, or that they haven't contributed enough to make their views worth considering. Very probably these things are true in some cases. I contribute minimally for a variety of reasons, some of which have to do with feeling a lack of entitlement, and some of which have to do with more mundane things like not wanting to repeat what others have said, or sore wrists after a long day.
 
 
sleazenation
16:44 / 17.09.03
The problem with defining a clique is it seems such an inteterminate notion for an equally interteminate set of relationships.

To put it another way - Barbelith posters all belong to a clique of people who post on barbelith. within that they are various sub cliques of various insubstantial definition, each of which could be critisized for excluding someone.

Basically as long as there are human relations there will be group dynamics or cliques and the (not always accurate) perception thereof.
 
 
I The Golden Dawn-nie Darko U
17:58 / 17.09.03
I haven't been on the board that long BUT I do happen to date a (former) member who happens to have filled me in on a bit of the history here. Now, as I do not feel it is my place to lodge complaints, there are 2 things I feel compelled to state:

1) I do not find it fair to refer to a certain frustrated moderator (the one who started this) as a troll

and

2) If there wasn't a degeree of censorship,shouting down et al., there would be no need for the wiki of shadows (aka sourceryforge; brilliant btw!) The constant treating of the Magick Forums as "The Special Board" makes this a very intimadating and unfriendly place to post ANYTHING

That is all.
xoxoxo
 
 
—| x |—
19:39 / 17.09.03
"This is a web board...and if you don't like the way things are going for whatever reason, take a damn break."

Funny how it is supposed to be us "hissy fitters" and whiny complainers who are supposed to take the break for not liking what is going on, and not any of the people who do not like what is going on when some other people express their whines, moans, griefs, and gripes.

In all fairness, can't any and all people made uncomfortable by current Barbeltih treands also as easily take a break if they don't like what is going on?

Just a thought...
 
 
Hieronymus
19:58 / 17.09.03
I'll throw my coin in on this, tattered and poorly developed though I'm sure it will be.

Regarding the trolls... I think it's important to draw a distinct difference, now if not applicable to past trolling, between those who feel they are oppressed/not listened to and those who bang their kitchenware JUST to get noticed, i.e. the trolls. The latter is, I'm sure, born from the former. But no where in this place is there a policy or reluctance to allow people to voice their grievances in a sane and civil manner. Spamming, obnoxious messages and threats against another person are instances where I think the moderators are more than justified in silencing, since it simply becomes clamor for attention's sake and nothing more. And ultimately drowns out what is a perfectly reasonable grievance.

In all the time I've been with Barbelith, and it's been since the Nexus padded around the Web in little footed pajamas, I've seen that sporadic conflict has ALWAYS been a constant here. Barbelith, being a collection of extremely intelligent individuals sharing their perspectives with one another, does have to tussle with clashes of ego, miscommunication, overbearing points of view, et al. It's just going to happen. It always has. And probably always will.

That's not to say that it's a nightly brawl and that new people had better get used to it. Sure, there can be some very strong voices. Haus, Jack Fear, Flux, they all bug the shit out of me sometimes. I haven't been on the sharp end of it (yet) but I've certainly witnessed it. And yes, they can occasionally evoke an atmosphere of smugness or arrogance, depending on how personally attached you are to your postings. It's probably born out of the fact they're sharp, sharp bastards and if you don't know what you're talking about when you post, they will tackle you on it.

But in no way are these boys representative of the greater Barbelith. Nobody speaks for the management, as it were, except Tom. Thank god. Besides they're no monsters. They're a litter of pussycats.

If you're not willing to take the air out of them/ be receptive to the core of their point/ call them on the carpet when they're wrong/ walk away with nary a care/ defend your comments intelligently/ or find the comedy in their chest-beating, then you're honestly not going to last long here. That's not said as a "Suck it up crybabies" dismissal of anyone's feelings of being pushed around. It's just the nature of the place. You have to hold your own. Or be prepared to disentangle yourself from your postings.

Along with that, I'm glad Nick has created this thread as a means for people to air their concerns/complaints in a safe and supported place. THIS is what Barbelith is about. THIS is representative of Barbelith. There are no cliques here, no inner circles of friendships that hold all the cards. Please let us know here if you think that to be true. Because for all the talk of overlords or Illuminati of Barbelith, all I've ever seen is broompushers, an owner, and a bunch of folks who want to talk about Buffy, drool over new science discoveries, debate about comic book nuances, explore their spirituality. And yeah, who do occasionally butt heads with one another. Maybe there's more to that. I dunno.

We do have a huge community here, with room enough for anyone (so long as they're not willing to light a match to the place just to see it burn). More than enough room for anyone, actually. And more than enough room for even more friendships and associations to be formed. I, for one, am guilty of not getting to know more people here *waves to Mazarine*, not extending myself beyond occasional posts in the Spectacle or the Comics Forum. And I have a feeling I'm not alone in that department. It could very well be contributing to the feelings of being attacked by an alien clique that some people have expressed here.

In conclusion, I like to think of Barbelith as a place that can seperate the memetic wheat from the chaff, that challenges ideas, and doesn't let them ride off willy-nilly without being examined. It IS a tough, but reasonable, and as this thread proves, a pretty damn introspective place. But without the persons in it, without the ideas flying like bullets in this place, it wouldn't be nearly as a cool a board as it is.

Let's be careful out there.
 
 
Papess
20:04 / 17.09.03
Good damn post Dailing Mass!
 
 
Olulabelle
20:28 / 17.09.03
Personally, I have found that absolutely all of the moderators I have come across have gone out of their way to be fair and significantly not on a power trip in the bwahahahaha kind of way. And in fact I've noticed that newly appointed moderators are people I have held in high respect before they took on the moderator mantle. As well, I think it must be a difficult and unthankful job, and that also inclines me towards respect for them.

Maybe the reason that I think this is because I am not a/The Knowledge, b/in the habit of posting confrontational things, or c/disposed to bragging about tigers, but I thought it might help the discussion to get the 'middle England' point of view across. That's not to say I read the Daily Mail (vomits on the carpet) or I drive a white van, and I call myself middle England in the very most tongue in cheek kind of way, but I guess I kind of count as a middle Barbelithian.

Maybe.
 
 
Cat Chant
21:39 / 17.09.03
can't any and all people made uncomfortable by current Barbeltih treands also as easily take a break if they don't like what is going on?

We are doing, thanks.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:16 / 17.09.03
Largely likewise. At present I'm primarily cleaning up after and taking the piss out of Neil Gaiman's 1602. It's not exactly world domination, but I'm hoping it will give people a chance to breathe a bit.

I think the FAQ is due a revamp, btw - can we corporately address ourselves to it?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
00:02 / 18.09.03
can't any and all people made uncomfortable by current Barbeltih treands also as easily take a break if they don't like what is going on?

We are doing, thanks.

Quoting this, realising that my post on this thread is probably the most i've contributed in months... which, before i get jumped, ain't a 'waaaah', so much as an realisation.

Aside from that I'm mainly talking clothes and jam.
 
 
Persephone
03:15 / 18.09.03
Nick PM'd me these questions, and I'm posting them with his permission.

Is there an oppressive atmosphere to Barbelith?

Oppressive is subjective. It depends on the person & it depends on a lot of different things for different people. Are you trying to reach a consensus? Because that in itself tends to create an oppressive environment, because there will inevitably be a few people --or many, depending on whether this is majority or minority rule that we are talking about-- who don't fall in with the consensus. Whether persons who don't fall in with the consensus experience this as oppression is also variable.

I hear in this thread the people who think things are fine and the people who think things are not fine equally expressing the desire not to be oppressed by their opposites.

I don't find Barbelith oppressive. I happen to subscribe to that oh-so-privileged belief that no one can oppress you without your consent. But then I don't spend very much time in this place. Lately it's been a little bit toxic for me. It's like beaches are nowadays --on certain days, the E. coli just gets out of control & you know to stay at home.

Do you think there's a significant group of people who feel they don't have a full run of the board because they risk what is essentially bullying if they post on some subjects or in some forums?

I don't know what would constitute a significant group of people. I think that there is bullying across the board, and I don't like it.

This idea that bullying is a sign that you are dealing with an intellectual heavy-hitter... that is not my viewpoint.

What the hell is going on out there? Why did this blowout happen?

In my view, people tend not to try to understand what they read on the board. Rather they tend to assume that they understand wholly & perfectly, then jump right to judgment. Which leads to fights. Enough fights, and some people will just quietly leave the board. Every now and then, some person will get unhinged & upset the board, which has mainly responded by thinking about and taking preemptive defensive measures. Which are viewed by others as oppressive, by the way.

That's what I mean about wanting to be questioned as a person, and not deconstructed as a text. All posts are fragments, they need to be put together & not taken apart all the time.

Where should I start?

Was this one of the questions, or was this a meta-question? But oughtn't I provide some suggestions, anyway?

Distributed moderation is a totally interesting concept that I love. But as I said upthread, the same people's names appearing over and over at the top of forums is not exactly distributed. Really spread it out, man. It should be Cal and Tom as admins, and as many people as needed as mods & no more than one assignment per person. Secondly, and particularly if trust is an issue, I would get rid of the idea that moderators are anything more than community members who have volunteered to do a little extra work around the place. I don't think that moderators should have any kind of mission to lead their particular forum to greater and better heights. Servants, not leaders & I don't mean in the way that George Bush thinks that he's a public servant.

Get rid of the idea that the topic abstract is holy writ. Gah! Who spends more than two minutes writing the topic abstract? Then in the heat of an argument, it gets yanked out like the world's crookedest measuring stick & you look at it... like, you can't be serious. You're going to hit me with that? It would make more sense to me to specifically encourage people to write topic abstracts to enable the search function, period.

(Please excuse the imperative verbs in this section, and don't get all excited --my word is not going to become law anytime soon.)
 
 
rizla mission
09:18 / 18.09.03
I totally agree with your point about the topic abstract.
 
  

Page: 1(2)3

 
  
Add Your Reply