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Let's Talk, Barbelith

 
  

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We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:22 / 16.09.03
Okay. At the risk of dragging this out, and of duplicating my post here, there's a couple of things I need to say to Barbelith in general. This one goes out to all those of you who don't consider yourselves part of the Barbelith 'inner circle', and to anyone (I'm sure there's someone) who does.

I don't truly understand what's going on here, but I'm going to say a couple of things which may or may not seem obvious. What you do about that is, of course, up to you.

To begin with, I repeat what I said in Bill Posters' departure thread: your guarantee of good faith, of Barbelith the paradise, is not rules or process, it is the fact that the ultimate power here is in the hands of a man so breathtakingly honest, and so utterly ruthless with his own illusions, that it can make you rather uncomfortable. I've known Tom since before Barbelith, and I can tell you this with confidence: deceit is not in him.

In other words, there is no danger in posting criticism or concern. It could not be removed fast enough to prevent the truth from coming out - and even if it could, Barbelith is not Chile at the end of Allende; no one will kick down your door and torture you for your bravery. There's no downside to speaking up if you really believe there is something bad going on.

So is there? Bill and Mod3/6opow have both mentioned a swell of unease, hinted at a web of concern about moderation actions. Bill seems convinced that his 'goodbye' may get deleted - bizarre, when you look at the various Mod3 threads still sitting in the Conversation and the Policy which are far more furious and ludicrous. As far as I can see, there's no conspiracy - but then, I'm no longer a moderator, and I may just be missing the whole thing - despite the fact that I read Barbelith throughout the day.

If anyone's wondering, I did moot the possibility of posting a thread like this with Tom. I didn't go into specifics, because I didn't know what I was going to say. This post will probably embarrass him greatly (but that's what friends are for). So - these are my thoughts, not his. I think we can chose to transform this problem into something worth having. As a marker of which, incidentally, I've ditched 'samvega' in favour of 'pasada'. I'm trying to do the same in real life - which is a little harder...

So this is an appeal to everyone. Let's talk. Let's talk like the people we want to be, not the ratty disputants we more often are. If there's a problem, let's fix it, because we only get out of this place what we put in.
 
 
Jub
13:37 / 16.09.03
Let the healing commence!
 
 
Quantum
13:48 / 16.09.03
Okay, I want to quickly nip in and say I like Barbelith and don't see that there's any problem that isn't being blown out of all proportion. I think it's great here, it's a fun place to chat, you meet cool people and talk about cool things. I don't perceive any conspiracy or power struggle, I don't have a problem with any of the posters or mods, I occasionally get irritated by the people who do. I am the silent majority if there is one, who don't take this stuff too seriously.
On a lighter note, I wish I could find Crimes Of Fashion's leaving debacle, the stuff about the real live tiger was great.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
13:50 / 16.09.03
If we're being honest, I'm going to take a rather unsympathetic stance. I think most of what's been going on recently is absurd hissyfitting and the hissyfitters deserve little sympathy, even if I frequently enjoy the less hissyfitty posts of, say, Bill or Dr Mod. This is a web board, not a religious order, and if you don't like the way things are going for whatever reason, take a damn break. I've done this, as I know Nick has, and a few others. Stamping your little foot and taking your ball home is as childish as the metaphor I've used to describe it.

That said, we do pretend to community here, and every community needs a nemesis. As long as we're not going to start stealing women and chattels from F2B or whatever we might as well grow our own Satan. While I was not here for the most egregious Knodge-storms, it has always seemed to me that he filled that role nicely--so nicely that at times I've suspected him of being a plant. But if you're going to take the role, fucking live up to it and don't whine when you get beaten back. The nemesis always gets beaten back. That's the whole point.

No one is out to get you. If you choose to be a dissenter, then do your job and dissent. Advocate for yourself. Don't be a sissy and don't be a troll, because neither tactic is going to get you anywhere.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:56 / 16.09.03
I think this all comes back to the fact that people find the deletion of threads creepy. That perhaps is a soft word for it but nice and expressive so well done to whoever coined it (I did know but it was 24 hours ago). A lot of the people I know on and offline through the board spend a significant amount of time here noticing Knowledge. He causes our posts to be deleted every so often and particularly if a whole thread goes. Sometimes we find ourselves talking to him and not realising it. This in itself isn't a problem. It is laid out in very clear and obvious terms why his words disappear. The problem is that people aren't told when someone has turned out to be one of his many fictionsuits and it's surprising when things that you've said disappear. It can also lead to a certain amount of paranoia, an assumption that the moderator's know more than you and that the little Knodge is everywhere. The latter may be true but hahaha we laugh in his face like brave puppies. A lot of the time most of the moderator's know shit, they just rightly assume that what's going on is same old, same old. The lack of communication as to the deletions and the locked threads is disturbing though. It's like we have to keep what's going on a secret because everyone's so scared to utter his name, to refer to what he's doing. It makes barbelith feel like a house of cards and it's weird because for a long time after all the Bad Stuff went on that kind of atmosphere didn't hang over the place.

I think we all have moderation concerns and to an extent they help the system along. Everyone on this board should feel free to question the moderators and to doubt them but at no point should a moderator be threatened. 6opow seemed to have a problem- managed to forget that Haus is as much a poster as an admin or mod. Assumed that he'd done wrong things to specific people when his actions are the same as most of the other mod's. It's just that everything is more obvious when it's done by Haus. At the end of the day the moderator's here are approachable. They all invest in the board and provided you don't treat them like the authority figures that they don't necessarily want to be than it's fine to ask them things- well, maybe not anything.

Rather more importantly we all spend so much time together- we need a bust up every six months or so
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:58 / 16.09.03
Q is absolutely correct.

There's no good reason for any of us to be too concerned with the paranoid delusions of a handful of people.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:02 / 16.09.03
This isn't really about people who have chosen a 'dissenter' role, though - what concerns me is the suggestion that there's a grass roots feeling of unease. I'm much more concerned that occasional posters and those who see themselves as outside the Barbelith Mainstream (whatever that may be on any given day) may believe there is a posting regime which is sternly or secretly enforced.

I want to know whether there is anyone who believes they have a position which they would be unable to express here - which would be suppressed or reviled to the point where they must keep silent. If there is such a group, or even just one person, I think we need to look at how it's possible such a perception could exist and whether it's even slightly accurate.

I'd also like it if any moderators who were having doubts about their own positions could feel free to discuss them. When I was a mod, I know there were a few actions I wasn't happy with, and we either reversed them or they were explained. A few of my actions were also (rightly, I think) rejected as being heavy-handed. We found alternative solutions to the problems. But there is somehow a perception of disconnection between moderators and regular posters, and I think we should address that. Once upon a time, Tom rejected hierarchical titles (Myrmidon, Archon, Junior Member etc.) for this reason. Somehow, it's crept up on us - which is crazy, because ninety nine per cent of moderating is grief and boredom.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:03 / 16.09.03
You know mostly I think this whole thing has shown us who likes to argue and who doesn't.
 
 
Jub
14:06 / 16.09.03
... and we know what camp you're in Anna!!
 
 
illmatic
14:07 / 16.09.03
Just chiming in to echo Quantum's sentiments (but I have got to know most of the London based 'lithers IRL in the last year or so so I could get accused of being part of some clique I suppose).

Anyway, from my reading of the board, I've never seen any of the threads get manipulated in this way. When I see Bill next (soon I hope) I will be asking him what the fuck he's on about.

And as for all the conflict that started all this soul searching .. well, I'm of the opinion that's it's petty, boring, childish and does the board no favours at all. Possibly the initial sniping on Haus thread should've remained open in Policy as an attempt to get some resolution between the individuals concerned but seeing as this bad feeling has been going on for an eternity, (before I was on the board anyway) perhaps it's closure was inevitable. I strongly suspect all the "bad mod" stuff is just a load of bollocks dreamt up to perpetuate this initial arguement.

(God, I hope this doesn't start it off all over again).
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:36 / 16.09.03
Eh. Maybe I'm just a jerk but I don't htink this is the case at all. I've spoken to a number of newbies, once publically in the Q&A thread of yor, and several times in private when I noticed someone new, to tell them that there are "cliques" of people who know each other already or have a history of shared interests, etc, but that if you give it a little time this is not a gated community. I've never noticed any groundswell of unease concerning moderators and their actions. I think the case is that a few people are stamping their feet because they don't like that no one agrees with them, or because they enjoy stamping their feet. Which is fine. But I'm not particularly interested in another yet round of self-criticism and "reform". It's tiresome and ineffectual.

Maybe we should have a Tantrum Forum instead.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
14:40 / 16.09.03
So, again, could we make a rule that whenever the moderators delete a post, they have to send you a notice and an explaination? I really think that would ease the tension a bit.

11001001011101(what does it mean, anyway?)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:41 / 16.09.03
Well, that's fine. Then you're not one of the people I need to talk to. It's anyone who does have a problem with the way the board is and feels I want to hear from. Anyone who wants to change how it works or feels squeezed out. This is the unsqueezing conversation, people. Unbend and tell the truth.
 
 
Ariadne
14:43 / 16.09.03
I'd agree with Qalyn, in that I don't think (or I'm not aware of) things getting deleted willy-nilly. They only vanish if someone's being a serious troll. Of course, I may be missing things and perfectly normal posts are disappearing too, but I haven't seen it.

Barbelith CAN be a tiresome place where anyone with a differing opinion gets shouted down, but that's generally not a big problem - they get their chance to argue and make their case, and their posts stay on the board for all to see.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:45 / 16.09.03
I would suggest that those who feel that they fall outside of the "Barbelith Mainstream" should seek out other places on the internet where they may have a better time fitting in. Barbelith is just fine for the overwhelming majority of us - I can't see any good reason for us to bend over backwards to accomodate a very small minority of people. Why should this place be everything to everyone?

And for fuck's sake, when will people ever stop whining about "cliques"? We're not obligated to like you, and we don't have to pretend that we're all buddies so long as we remain civil. If you feel as though you're on the outside, make some friends. This is not different from real life.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:47 / 16.09.03
Maybe we should have a Tantrum Forum instead

Can I be a Moderator?


could we make a rule that whenever the moderators delete a post, they have to send you a notice and an explaination

That's unrealistic and time consuming and it opens moderator's up as targets to persistent trolls. Just some small anonymous notification that something's gone and one line would surely work out.

And Finally... Illmatic is now my arch rival. Too often does he accidentally question me. I would like to announce to the board that we are now entering the arena of haters, that I hate him and everyone related to him and that I wish to start a war. A nuclear war. At the hate-bar, hate-bar, hate-bar.
 
 
Ariadne
14:48 / 16.09.03
Sorry Nick, just seen your post above. Other than being 'squeezed out' by joycore enthusiasts and argumentative gits, I'm happy enough. So I'll shut up.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:50 / 16.09.03
Okay, Flux, would you mind not telling the people I specifically asked to post in this thread that they shouldn't post on this board? Because if there is anyone out there feeling oppressed and stifled by a 'barbelith majority' - which I think you'll agree isn't how Barbelith should be - it's unlikely to encourage them to express concerns about the place if you're up here telling them they "don't belong".
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:57 / 16.09.03
The one thing I regret is that by deleting modog's 'Hands Up!' thread, we also lost a couple of posts by Bill, moriarty and possibly others, in which they expressed concerns about moderation/bullying etc - concerns which were news to me, and reasonably expressed, albeit a little vaguer than I might have liked. I still don't see how this was to be avoided, seeing as having had an issue effectively settled in the Policy (INCLUDING Tom Coates stating his verdict on the matter, and the thread locked), modog had decided to start spamming the board with new threads in the Conversation designed to goad Haus and create a shitstorm. I'd suggest that this thread may be an ideal place for those posters whose posts from that thread were lost to voice their concerns.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:01 / 16.09.03
Fair enough, Nick.

I agree that I'm sort of defeating my own point of view with my earlier comments.
 
 
Quantum
15:18 / 16.09.03
I want to be a supermod in the tantrum forum!

Just some small anonymous notification that something's gone and one line would surely work out
seems like courtesy to me, perhaps a notice could be sent automatically to those caught in the crossfire i.e. posters to the thread who aren't the troll.
But at the end of the day, it's no big deal if posts get deleted- what matters of world shaking importance will we forget if some posts/threads go? Personally the only reason I want an indication of what has been deleted it's so what's left makes sense, or from curiosity.

It doesn't seem like there are many people who want to express their doubts and concerns about the mods/supermods/archons/bullies.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:47 / 16.09.03
Give it time. The thread's only been open a short while, and we're an international group. There are over two thousand registered members, the majority silent. (Come on, you lot.)

Fly, thanks for that.

Quantum, I see where you're coming from with the notification, although I think it's a mountain of extra boredom for mods. Maybe a 'moderation actions' thread? Automation would be an answer, but it has its own pitfalls, both in terms of tone and because it might give the wrong impression in sticky situations.

Another possibility would be that the original poster be automatically copied in on moderation requests, and allowed to comment, but not given a right to vote them down. Again, though, that's a technical question for Cal and Tom. Let's try to gather a few more opinions before we do solutions.
 
 
HCE
16:16 / 16.09.03
I would like to preface my comments by saying that I have not noticed any abuse on the part of moderators.

Perhaps there could be a thread dedicated to moderators complaining about the egregiousness of their janitorial duties? If the task is as thankless as is proposed, and the moderators receive nothing from their roles other than a grim sort of satisfaction at a gruesome job done right, then perhaps everyone who posts frequently should be required to take a turn.

The insistence that there is no clique and no hierarchy strikes me as a bit coy. People have repeatedly and independently commented on it. I don't suggest that it is particular to Barbelith, or that it should be anybody's responsibility to make people feel welcome. I had an initial fit of pique myself, which I subsequently got over, but there is still a lingering sense that I shouldn't post freely.

More later.
 
 
Persephone
16:26 / 16.09.03
Truthfully? I think that I agree with something that JtB said in the Let's Not Argue thread. I don't believe in Barbelith as a project, per se. More or less I have a take-it-or-leave-it stance with the board. It's frequently said that you get what you put into this place, and I think that's often interpreted as a call to do something with this place. In my experience, large groups accomplish little; if you want to look for diffusion of responsibility, look in a large group. I think that it is futile and fruitless to try to control a large group.

Lest you think that I am being negative, let me try to describe an alternative path. Viz., in which Barbelith is just allowed to be. I am talking perhaps about a culture that gently frowns on the very idea that we must move forward as a group. Let every individual shout at herself to get off her ass & do something... or not, as she pleases. As for this place, I think of Barbelith alternately as a workroom or, less nicely, as a compost heap. It's a lot of rot, but it really can't be overstated how much I've been nourished in this place. Do stop me before I get into the extended remix metaphor about rot and its role in the circle of life...

Look, this is just off the top of my head & I have the feeling as usual that I'm way off topic. If I've said anything objectionable, I'd appreciate being questioned as a person... rather than deconstructed as a text.
 
 
Papess
16:29 / 16.09.03
I would like to commend set in this regard. Set manages to send out a PM of the post removed. You can keep your writing and you can also see what mistakes you have made. It is a learning process this way, rather than what maybe misinterpreted as punishment or controlling actions.

It still doesn't feel good, but it is helpful if you try and reflect on it.
 
 
The Falcon
16:33 / 16.09.03
Hmmm.

I've had tantrums here, two or three times.

And I've learned that there are certain things you don't (really) discuss on Barbelith. Which is a wee bit disappointing, but there y'go.

I'm really quite happy with it just now, having prefaced this blow-up some month or two previous. These are the only posts I've ever been aware of having had deleted, and bearing in mind they included an entire thread started by Ganesh and including posts by Haus (and Knodge pretending to be Haus...,) I wasn't objectionable. It was just a minor blow-up, and it's resolved now, as far as I'm concerned.

Some of the mods could do with a civility injection occasionally, but.

And Haus (or Mr.Haus, as our recent puff-chested male suffragette had it - and I have to say that's where he lost the majority of his credibility for me) is generally only taking the piss. You can do it back. Where I come from, this is something of a pastime, between friends.

Shame Billy-boy's gone though; he was quite good, I thought.
 
 
Persephone
16:36 / 16.09.03
I have never personally liked the idea of admins apart from Cal and Tom, though I understand that it was tactically necessary. I also don't really like the super-mod option. I don't have a concern about abuse in practice, just abuse in theory. It looks bad --to me-- to have a few people whose names appear over and over at the top of forms. I should think that distributed moderation means that moderation can be spread out to more people & that no individuals should appear to have a disproportionate amount of responsibility or power.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:04 / 16.09.03
Gosh, one of the things i *do* love about this place is when someone takes your woolly vague thoughts and expresses them clearly.

Which is what Persephone's just done for me.

I have in the past been *very* involved, invested and present around here. And had the sense of a communmity with a spirit, goals, energy of its own. If there's a clique (and i agree that while there really isn't one, dimissing people's feelings about this out of hand is disingenuous, and is probably why it keeps popping up) i've been in it.

And I also want to thank Tom for providing a space that has been at times incredibly nourishing, challenging, exciting, provocative and alot of fun. and for putting in alot of massively unappreciated hard work. Pass on my appreciation, nick. And for the fact that I've met/spoken to alot of wonderful people. Some of my closest friends now are people i encountered here. which is weird, and wonderful.

But I took a short break a while ago, for various reasons, and find that for me it's now a space to catch up and chat with some of the lovely people i know(not just IRL). and that's about it.

But that's cool, it's all I really want from it these days. I agree with 'seph that letting it be is a good strategy, and it's where i am with it.

It's like an ex good mate where i've figured out that i do still want a level of interaction but that this has to be a reasonably superficial one, or the interaction drives me barmy.

I don't care enough about it to worry about where it's going and what's happening to it. Which is why I asked Tom to de-mod me.

Dunno if this adds anything, but that's my tuppence.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:12 / 16.09.03
oh, but having been a moderator, i do want to say this:

you only do it because you really care about this space, not, in my experience out of some 'bwahahahaha I rule' power trip. (which is what it would have become with me, as i'd stopped caring, hence asking to be de-modded. I would have gotten far too much fun out of deleting things!!) why?

It's often alot of tedious thankless work, sometimes involving gallons of brainless grunt-work, sometimes involving complex discussions over tricky issues with people half-way round the world.

They choose to do it, yes, but it's alot of hard work, especially as they, and the rest of us form a community who are suspicious of the idea of moderation to start with. so there's very rarely any praise, they only get noticed when there's a problem.

Just a bit of perspective.
 
 
HCE
17:49 / 16.09.03
Re-read my earlier post. I didn't mean to sound so negative. Perhaps just let the cycle of moods run itself through? The place'll bounce back. Enough people seem to care about it, the caring should manifest as resilience.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:57 / 16.09.03
But you know what- correcting a long post full of spelling mistakes can be really satisfying when you later look at your handiwork (or your boyfriend's if you happened to be on the phone to him at the time and your brain is melting from the severity of some of the mistakes).

[threadrot] So, what I want to know is when do we get a tantrum forum because I think that's the best idea ever even if me and Quantum are the only ones who would consistently populate it. I suspect it might be more fruitful and provide me with far more to do than Art, Fashion and Design. [/threadrot]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:53 / 16.09.03
And I would say again that I don't believe it's a moderator's role to correct spelling, unless possibly it is so bad as to make a post incomprehensible, and even then it would hardly be unique. I realise people do this according to their individual conscience...

I think, and speaking as somebody who does feel right now as if Barbelith can be a pretty oppressive place, but only as a result of very small numbers abusing the board's ideals in the pursuit of personal gain, that a key point here is:

Barbelith is just fine for the overwhelming majority of us - I can't see any good reason for us to bend over backwards to accomodate a very small minority of people.

Is that true? The point is, a) if there is a 'silent majority' that is feeling unease, or even a statistically significant silent minority, we should be trying to find out why and dealing with it. Also, some of this majority or minority is not silent. Non-troll members of the board have come out and expressed that it feels weird to them to have posts deleted without explanation, or threads disappear. So, we are working on ways to maybe make that not happen, because the desire to obliterate he presence of the sexless backpacker is having unanticipated side effects. The ability of administrators to...well, actually, administrators couldn't do much, apart from warn users, which I don't think ever happened, but there weren't many of them and maybe that made them a target for accusations of Star Chamberiness. There was a "ban user" button, but it didn't actually do anything. So, no more administrators (except Cal, who is technical, and Tom, who is realistically entitled, and has far greater power *anyway*) and a discussion about better practice on moderation and deletion. May's comment about Set PMing people with the text of their deleted posts is also a good one - it's been very rare that I have had to delete a post that is not either trolling or a few words of threadrot, but where I have I have tried to keep this in mind. If we are feeling indulgent, we could have a Policy thread where deleted thread URLs are kept, so threads can be kept alive by devoted people if they want to... they are just kept off the beaten track. As long as we are good about killing trollsuits, that needn't be impossible...

But we do need feedback. There is a tendency for people who want to impose their agenda onto Barbelith to claim popular support. The sexless backpacker claimed the support of the people, long after it became clear that only a *very* small number (like, leprous hand) was actually interested in trying to get him reaccepted. I think it's important to distinguish the 'silent majority' who are whistled up to support one person's view of how Barbelith should accommodate them from the simple majority of people on Barbelith who don't post. Many of those are multiple suits, many others are abandoned suits, but presumably there are some people out there who might contribute to Barbelith but feel, for some reason, that they cannot, should not or do not want to. Some of the reasons for that are probably intrinsic to Barbelith being what Barbelith is, but others are probably amendable and deserve our attention. While Flux is right that we should not be messing around with what Barbelith is or pressing one of many possible self-destruct buttons to satisfy a handful of people, I don't think that describes Nick's aim in this thread; the few people who want Barbelith to bend over backwards are, if anything, very vocal about it. There may be a fair few people who would just like to see Barbelith flex a bit.

All of which is a rather long-winded (yeah, I know, should we alert the national media?) way to say that I think this thread is a valuable and useful one. If you're sick of posting on Barbelith, you may want to take a break. If you would like to get the chance to be sick of posting on Barbelith, this could be a good place to start...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:13 / 16.09.03
I don't believe it's a moderator's role to correct spelling, unless possibly it is so bad as to make a post incomprehensible

And being a new moderator I did discuss whether it was a good idea to modify that specific post with two other moderators who have been around for quite a bit longer than me and deal with a lot more erm... moderation traffic.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:24 / 16.09.03
I don't doubt it. I think it's something I wouldn't be comfortable with, and something I would see as open to abuse in the wrong hands, but ultimately it's probably a matter of individual conscience on the part of the moderator and the voter...
 
 
Slim
19:27 / 16.09.03
I don't come here enough to notice the deletion of posts but I have to ask why you people would delete posts you consider "thread rot" or whatever polite term you have for a post that the powers-that-be deem unecessary. Seems kind of faschist to me but perhaps I'm missing something.

As for the people who feel on the outside of some sort of inner sanctum...well, I find it hard to blame them. Isn't there already a division between mods and non-mods? I took a quick glance at the moderators in The Revolution. Unless I'm mistaken, Haus and mordant carnival are moderators of all 4 forums. Other people like Flyboy and grant are mods of multiple forums. It seems to me that becoming a mod is like gaining some sort of status symbol, like a rich man and his BMW. (frankly, I look at each forum and wonder why the hell it needs approximately 25 moderators anyways). Perhaps there should be only two or three per forum. How does one become moderator? Free election or chosen by the administrators? I don't know, so I'm asking.

I think there definitely is some sort of inner clique. I don't think it's intentional but it exists. In my mind, the problem is that most people have the same opinion and anyone who voices a different one is at best politely ignored and at worst shouted down. I need to point out that none of this bothers me. I have no problem with how this board is run or most of the people in it. What annoys me is when posters here deny that Barbelith is more exclusive than most boards. Let's not kid ourselves, people. The statement "post more and make friends" only applies if your posts are in agreement with everyone else's. I guess if I were to put it in political terms this place seems much more liberal-socialist than libertarian. I think a messageboard should be the online epitome of freedom and I question whether Barbelith is this, or even wants to be.

Everything I said above is null and void when it comes to the comic forum. In true geek fashion, everyone there bitches about and to everyone else.
 
  

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