BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Twin Towers conspiracy theory site

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
Ray Fawkes
04:13 / 01.10.03
if someone approaches me with a detailed plan to kill their wife, and i pass on the opportunity to help, but also don't notify the wife or the police, i'm an accessory if he carries out the plan.

First, this example is technically one of "active assistance". Choosing not to notify the wife or police is a conscious decision to allow the crime to happen.

Second, your example arguably does not apply to the situation in question. While a lot of people have stated that the administration had a lot of information about possible attacks, I have yet to see anything that indicates that they had (dare I say it yet again) enough information to reasonably expect to be able to prevent the attacks. Nobody gave them your "detailed plan". Certainly not the actual people who committed the crime.

[regarding scrambling jets to intercept and fire upon off-course air traffic]this doesn't require an executive decision or direct approval of any kind. it's standard procedure.

I'm sorry, but you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Any decision to fire on a commercial vessel has to have direct approval of the commanding officer at the operating base of the scrambled aircraft.

fighter jets were scrambled to intercept the planes that destroyed the WTC, and they were recalled by executive order before reaching their targets. incidentally, that executive order in and of itself is a violation of some regulation or other, but hey, who's counting?

I'd like to know who's counting. What regulation, exactly, was it a violation of?

It is entirely possible, you know, that the order was passed down not to fire on the planes because the people in charge knew that they were full of passengers and didn't want to kill them. It's possible that they had no idea the planes were about to be used as weapons and didn't want to antagonize the terrorists, worrying that they would kill more hostages. It's also possible that they didn't want to fire on them over downtown Manhattan, knowing that the flaming debris of the demolished planes would rain down on the city below. It's possible that they hesitated because they couldn't understand or believe what was happening.

Does any of this sound like reasonable doubt to you?
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:01 / 01.10.03
All sounds pretty reasonable to me, Ray Fawkes. I share your doubts about the existence of a procedure that tells the air force to automatically shoot down planes full of passengers over urban areas when the plane doesn't respond.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:39 / 01.10.03
Sorry to do this, and I'd like to stress I'm not certain I believe this article, but would you believe, say, AmeriCares?

Because this lot don't. And the Sandanistas certainly didn't; they said it was a CIA front.


"Likely to be"! Thus, even though AmeriCares (actually, the name of the charity is enough to make me wonder about its motives...) is perhaps not to be trusted, I stand by the statement; news likely to be more trustworthy than government announcements, charities more likely to be trustworthy than mainstream news sources... statistics made up on the spot, but if 10% of what the government says is true, 50% of what the media says is true, and 90% of what charities say is true, the statement is reasonable. And still reasonably if those figures are 49%, 50% and 51% respectively.

[melodramatically] Trust No-One![/melodromatically] Yay, melodrama! Perhaps a little more of that is needed to make the thread more interesting. I'm tiring a little of repeating what is essentially the same argument again and again. Talking of which...

Ray Fawkes:
While a lot of people have stated that the administration had a lot of information about possible attacks, I have yet to see anything that indicates that they had (dare I say it yet again) enough information to reasonably expect to be able to prevent the attacks

Gaaaaaah! The point is, they *may* have had enough information that one might reasonably expect them to have been able to do more to impede the attacks. Plenty has been said that indicates that they *may* have done. That this is not sufficient information to make it certain, or even *more likely than not*, the fact that it is of significant probability is enough to say that it shouldn't just be dismissed.

It is entirely possible, you know, that the order was passed down not to fire on the planes because the people in charge knew that they were full of passengers and didn't want to kill them. It's possible that they had no idea the planes were about to be used as weapons and didn't want to antagonize the terrorists, worrying that they would kill more hostages. It's also possible that they didn't want to fire on them over downtown Manhattan, knowing that the flaming debris of the demolished planes would rain down on the city below. It's possible that they hesitated because they couldn't understand or believe what was happening.

Does any of this sound like reasonable doubt to you?


Why this seeming insistence that the default position, rather than neutral, is the government line or, at least, the opposite of whatever theory is being suggested? Of course there's reasonable doubt - no one has, at any point, said, "This Is How It Was!" - but simply, "This is a credible possibility." What you have effectively said just there is, "How could you consider that to be possible when there are these possible alternative explanations?"

Your theories are possible. The other theories put forward are possible. Some theories are more likely than others. That is all.

(Apparently an increased use of exclamation marks indicates an impending nervous breakdown. Four above... I'll try to aim for more next time. Maybe I could do multiple exclamation marks...)

Oo, and since writing that, Lurid's posted, so quickly:

I think the point is is that there's a procedure which dictates that fighters should be sent up to intercept and if absolutely necessary shoot down planes which go off-course... of course, shooting down is probably not too likely, but recalling the fighters before they can even intercept is far from a usual course of action.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
13:42 / 01.10.03
I'd like to hope that nobody's having any nervous breakdowns here...

Why this seeming insistence that the default position, rather than neutral, is the government line or, at least, the opposite of whatever theory is being suggested?

In my books, the default position is "innocent", as in "until proven guilty". That is neutral, as far as I'm concerned.

What you have effectively said just there is, "How could you consider that to be possible when there are these possible alternative explanations?"

You're misreading my posts - probably because of this toneless medium. I'm not saying that at all - I'm saying: "Do you have enough evidence to eliminate these doubts? If not, then your theory is not credible enough."

fighters before they can even intercept is far from a usual course of action.

Do we know that? Who says it's far from a usual course of action? How often does this sort of thing happen? How often do the jets get called off?

This is what I think each and every conspiracy theory should be subjected to - a serious grilling, a sort of rigorous testing against established information. If it holds up, then it's worth thinking about. If it turns out to be a lot of hyperbole and hot air, then we eliminated it and move to the next theory, no?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:22 / 01.10.03
Of course there's reasonable doubt - no one has, at any point, said, "This Is How It Was!" - but simply, "This is a credible possibility." - Mme Angelique

The problem is, to my mind, that they aren't at all credible. They are just barely possible, if I ignore pretty much everything I know about politics and people. This is the problem with all conspiracy theories, that they require far too much coordination and implausibly counter-intuitive motivations.

So, for instance, the fact that these fighters were supposedly diverted from their predetermined actions in order to let the attacks take place. Already, just in that claim (which I can't help but be dubious of) we have a huge conspiracy. How many people can have known of this? Hundreds? And they must all have been convinced, even after the event, that diverting clearly and directly from known and established procedure was for the best?

I find that extremely difficult to swallow.
 
 
Jrod
01:34 / 07.10.03
From Not Me Again:
Not sniping - but how do we know people weren't sacked? These are the ultra-secretive intelligence agencies after all... Doubt it myself, but you never know...

True... also, I understand that these are "old boys' clubs" where people don't easily get fired. It's possible that somebody screwed up but wasn't canned because his dad and the director go way back. In such a case somebody would only be fired if the public (read: media) seemed to demand it. This was not the case after 9/11. All conjecture... but I doubt they'd fire someone without making a scapegoat out of him/her.

Then Ray Fawkes:
In my books, the default position is "innocent", as in "until proven guilty".

Seems to me an investigator should assume all suspects could be guilty until ze can clear them. Also, when a suspect is not forthcoming with information, an investigator would be foolish to assume that the suspect is clean because of a lack of evidence. However, even a prosecutor will agree that guilt must be proven before a suspect becomes a convict.

I do hope nobody is acting as though the US gov't will blow away a few thousand of it's own people just for some points in the polls - that's just too paranoid. At the same time, it can't be eliminated as a possibility. Maybe it's not a possibility that needs to be taken very seriously, but it's possible nonetheless. The only thing that can change that is more evidence. (I'd be interested in hearing from the commander that ordered those fighters away from the hijacked planes, as well as finding out for certain what standard procedure is for planes that fly off course. Maybe the FAA website...)

This is what I think each and every conspiracy theory should be subjected to - a serious grilling, a sort of rigorous testing against established information.

Can't argue with that. Let's not get bogged down in arguments that go "this is possible", "you can't prove that", "but it's possible!", "so where's the proof!?" There should be some distiction between a remote possibility and a plausible explaination, and these are not governed by the same standard.

As I've said before, Bush administration complicity is possible, but far from the most likely possibility. I do think it's worth giving a bit more attention than usual because of the implications if it's true. In other words, I'd like to see that suspect cleared. OK, that analogy is tapped out... it's just not that simple. Really, the economic damage is what makes the complicity theory most implausible. And maybe I am paranoid, but I can't totally discount the theory completely. I'm just not likely to bring it up outside of a discussion of conspiracy theories.

Let's just be glad we're not talking about aliens here, wherein all the possibilities are remote, but something wierd is going on. Quagmire City, man!
 
 
illmatic
07:28 / 07.10.03
The Guardian has extracts frpm Micheal Moore's new book Moore basically seems to be trying to do that retard in the White House as much damage as possible, and good for him I say. He said elsewhere that the defeat of Bush at the next election is the most important thing in American politics (damn right!). His basic thesis seems to be that it might not have been Osama, it might have been disgruntled elements in the House of Saud etc and Osama makes a convenient smokescreen, rather than risking full on diplomatic bust up with Saudi Arabia and all that oil money. Now I've written it down it doesn't seem as plausible but it's a good article nontheless.

(o/t)

Be interested to hear how that book plays in the 'States, and how Michael Moore is viewed, I hope he does Bush some damage.

(end o/t)
 
 
grant
14:04 / 27.10.03
The Republican former governor of New Jersey -- who is also the head of the 9-11 Commission -- is accusing the administration of obstructing their investigation.

Now, that's pretty messed up.

Kean is in many ways the ultimate insider, someone who you'd think would have less reason than anyone to make waves with his patron, George W. Bush -- the guy who has appointed him to some high-profile Homeland Security posts.

So if he's complaining, there's definitely something going on. What, I don't know... but something.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:08 / 29.10.03
As a side note, and reposted from the 'Lies of the Day' thread, there's a pretty good article on conspiracy theory and paranoia here.
 
 
Quantum
07:28 / 29.10.03
Notes Larry Klayman, chairman of the conservative watchdog group Judicial Watch: "This Administration is the most secretive of our lifetime, even more secretive than the Nixon Administration. They don't believe the American people or Congress have any right to information." (from Grant's third link above)
When you're getting compared to Nixon you know nobody trusts you.
 
 
grant
15:50 / 29.10.03
Baz: that interview ROCKS. Necessary background for this whole thread.

Here:
If you look at those who have propagated the most noxious doctrines of the twentieth century, you will find that they’ve been motivated by the fierce conviction that they have been the targets of a grand conspiracy against them. Hitler believed he was fighting back, righteously, against "the Jewish world conspiracy." [See pp. 30-31] Lenin and Stalin both believed they were fighting back against the capitalist powers–a view that had some basis in reality, of course, but that those Bolsheviks embraced to an insane degree. (In 1941, for example, Stalin actually believed that England posed a greater danger to the Soviet Union than the Nazis did.)

...This paranoid dynamic did not vanish when the Cold War ended. The U.S. is now dominated, once again, by rightists who believe themselves besieged. And the same conviction motivates Osama bin Laden and his followers. They see themselves as the victims of an expansionist Judeo-Christianity.
 
 
Not Here Still
18:58 / 29.10.03
Wow. Great link, that interview. Mark Crispin Miller manages to say things I've tried to articulate, but in a much more knowledgeable, funny and well-thought out manner.

I hate him.

From the interview too:

STAY FREE [interviewer]: Al Qaeda is itself a conspiracy.

MCM: Yes. We have to realize that the wildest notions of a deliberate plot are themselves tinged with the same dangerous energy that drives such plots. What we need today, therefore, is not just more alarmism, but a rational appraisal of the terrorist danger, a clear recognition of our own contribution to that danger, and a realistic examination of the weak spots in our system. Unfortunately, George W. Bush is motivated by an adolescent version of the same fantasy that drives the terrorists. He divides the whole world into Good and Evil, and has no doubt that God is on his side–just like bin Laden.
 
 
grant
15:39 / 08.12.03
Here's another conspiracy report, a bit heavy on the prose, but full of links that draws a line from the new footage of 9-11 that showed up on "an Al Qaeda website" according to the feds, to the Israeli agents who were caught filming the towers collapsing.

I'm not sure -- are this guy's facts all in order? If so, interesting.
 
 
grant
15:57 / 01.03.04
Oddly, today I came across this essay about what Dubya and the gummint was doing on 9/11, and this site about the collapse of Building Seven. The author thinks it was an intentional implosion which no one is letting on about.

It's actually a pretty good theory, from what I can tell.

Anyone know more about him or the idea that WTC 7 collapsed on its own?
 
 
w1rebaby
16:12 / 01.03.04
Silverstein article: I've seen this one before, courtesy of someone on another board. The problem with it is that it rests entirely on the idea that Silverstein did actually say that he "pulled" the building meaning blew it up, and then builds up a whole teetering tower of argument on that.

Whereas in fact, that's not at all certain. When I watched the clip it didn't sound like "pull it" at all, in fact more like "pull 'em", referring to pulling the firefighters which would make a lot more sense in context (the conversation is about the risk to the firefighters). And even if he did say "pull it" that wouldn't necessarily mean "blow up the building" - and it wouldn't mean that they actually did it, and so on. There are far too many assumptions being made here to base such an enormous series of deductions on. (An example response here.)

The sensible thing to do would seem to be to contact Silverstein and find out what he actually said and meant; Alex Jones seems to have made no effort to do so.

To me this exemplifies Bad Conspiracy Theory - take one dubious "fact", draw a conclusion from it, stick on another few dubious "facts", draw conclusions from them and so on until you get where you want to go.

I don't like Alex Jones, anyway. He seems very keen on plugging his radio show, he's a nationalist who likes the idea of the Israeli wall and uses the term "New World Order" frequently and without apparent irony, and I read his interview with German ex-minister von Buelow and it was an appalling attempt to twist everything the man said to support Jones' version of 9/11. None of the other stuff I've read of his has done anything to change my opinion. Classic black-helicopter demagogue IMO.
 
 
Peach Pie
14:43 / 13.03.04
there's an amusing site on the internal politics at Jones's local cable station kicking about somewhere on the web...
 
 
matt greek
21:35 / 14.03.04
As an ignorant Londoner, and I must add, an ardent believer in the defeat of racism of all kinds, I wonder if any of you Americans can help me on one particular point. I mean no offence to any Jewish contributors. One major theory in England, and one that has gathered furious momentum recently, is that a large number of Jewish workers in the towers were absent on the day of the event. If so, was this absence relatively large, in comparison to the norm? Is the fact correct? Is this a coincidence?
I give no creed to the view personally, although it interests me greatly. Any help?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:40 / 14.03.04
I seem to remember that one was fairly substantially debunked.
 
 
matt greek
21:43 / 14.03.04
I also thought so for a long time, although this "fact" has gathered so much momentum recently, especially in the south, that I would like to know more. Surely, someone must know definitively?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:03 / 14.03.04
The South of England, or the Southern Hemisphere?

Either way, as far as I recall this conspiracy theory came from a video by Michael Ruppert, and subsequently popularised by Amiri Baraka, based on the idea that Zim American-Israeli shipping moved out of the WTC a week before September 11. Make of that what you will - I imagine coincidence is more likely than conspiracy.

The number Baraka gives is 4,000 (Israeli workers, not Jewish New Yorkers, as I understand it). Given that 50,000 people worked at the WTC, give or take, that seems pretty far-fetched. The Israeli consulate estimated that about 100 Israeli citizens worked at the WTC, of whom 5 died. The 4,000 figure seems to have come from ar eport in the Jerusalem post shortly afterwards, basically saying that 4,000 Israelis in New York were uncontactable, which given that mobile phone communications were shut down and land line communications massively disrupted...
 
 
medicine man
11:10 / 16.03.04
if (slightly convincing) conspiracy theories are your thing then http://www.serendipity.li
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
19:22 / 12.01.06
I do hope nobody is acting as though the US gov't will blow away a few thousand of it's own people just for some points in the polls - that's just too paranoid. At the same time, it can't be eliminated as a possibility. Maybe it's not a possibility that needs to be taken very seriously, but it's possible nonetheless. The only thing that can change that is more evidence.

It has been discussed before by the US state, at least in theory, with Operation Northwoods.

That said, I have the same problem with this I always have with conspiracy theorists. The insistence of coming up with answers, as opposed to just trying to work out the relevant questions, leads to theories being put forward without the evidence to support them.

I actually think that with subjects like this you have to be more careful and meticulous in your research, then you would do in mainstream academia.
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
19:18 / 17.01.06
Since this has been bumped, i thought i'd add a few words. I recomend that you download Michael C. Ruppert's lecture the truth and lies behind 9-11. you can also buy it from his website. I like this guys aproach, he seems to deal only in provable (sp?) facts. Check out some other stuff on his website too. I find the CIA/Drugs bit very convincing.

Another Documentary which is worth watching is Confronting the evidence: a call to reopen the 9-11 investigation its 4 hours long. I got given this on dvd, but it isnt copyrighted so it should be downloadable from somewhere. The website address on the dvd doesnt seem to exist anymore, though.

My opinion- The americans organised the attack on themselves as an excuse for war and a more pliable political atmosphere. And that they encoureged islamic terrorism to create a manageable enemy to fight. why? Deception= Control= $Money$
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:18 / 18.01.06
Wow. That's a pretty hefty statement. So you believe the American government cold blooded murdered 3000+ of their own citizenry in front of the whole world, demolished a billion dollars worth of real estate, and did this to get rich and exercise political control in the middle east?
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:59 / 19.01.06
My opinion- The americans organised the attack on themselves as an excuse for war and a more pliable political atmosphere. And that they encoureged islamic terrorism to create a manageable enemy to fight. why? Deception= Control= $Money$

Alternatively Western intelligence services just weren't prepared for the different tactics and highly cellular nature of "Islamic" terrorist groups such as AQ.

I'd question your description of these groups as a manageable threat. Given that even with front-line troops in play, the Iraqi insurgency groups are pretty much striking at will.

As for a more pliable political atmosphere, well as the Iraq situation gets worse and worse and more US soldier return home in body bags the government's popularity is dropping.
 
 
Morpheus
23:08 / 20.01.06
So you believe the American government cold blooded murdered 3000+ of their own citizenry in front of the whole world, demolished a billion dollars worth of real estate, and did this to get rich and exercise political control in the middle east?

In a heart beat. Why...because they are members of an inbred and very old satanic cult.
No proof here.

And they have been able to rewrite/burn our constitution, make trillions for themselves, and foster any number of crimes against humanity in the name of 911. The pay-off was huge. Motive is reason enough for a search warrant, yet they seem to not want anyone of us to know the truth. Our government is acting like the pathological liars that they are..invisible, untouchable, and complacent at ever turn.

911 is a joke...aka fear of a black planet.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:32 / 20.01.06
because they are members of an inbred and very old satanic cult

Hmm.

Moving swiftly on-

this theory, also posited in the Thyssen (sp?) book- are we looking at a Reichstag-type model, or a Pearl Harbour? Given that both boast a multitude of interpretations, what exactly is being implied here?

Because, as Evil Scientist says, it hasn't turned out so well. An all-consuming global conspiracy could probably have handled it better, wouldn't you think?
 
 
The Falcon
15:59 / 21.01.06
Not for Iraqis. Or the military American underclass, perhaps. But you know, Cheney and that don't seem to be hurting too bad.
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
10:52 / 23.01.06
Firstly, Stoatie are we looking at a Reichstag-type model, or a Pearl Harbour?

By reichstag type i take you as meaning that the perptrators of 911 were elements within the USA authorities, for example Dick Cheney getting the CIA to fly remote control planes into buildings. Possible, but not provable, i think. but there is a precident

Pearl Harbour. An external enemy exists and they are taunted/covertly encouraged to strike you first. Just as possible (isnt anything?) havent a few of the hijackers turened up alive though?


pah. gotta go to work. Wikipedia has good articles on most of the conspiracy theories
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:53 / 01.03.06
Going back to the question of whether the WTC buildings were demolished using explosives, I think the documentary, '9/11 Revisited', is very interesting:

e.g.

1) The number of eye witnesses that heard/felt explosions after the planes hit.

2) The highly unusual nature of how the buildings collapsed and the debunking of the official "Pancake collapse theory". e.g. steel girders collapsing like telescopes into one another at near free-fall speed?

3) The question of whether the concrete in the towers could have been pulverised to dust by structural collapse alone.

4) The questionable security of the WTC in the weeks leeding up to 9/11. e.g. the "power downs" - there's only a relatively brief mention of this in the film, but it's intriguing nonetheless.

5) What the experts think -- in my humble opinion, the two lectures at the end of the film are particularly illuminating. However, (please forgive me) for now I cannot recall the names of the two speakers, but I will re-watch the film and provide more details at a later date.

Personally, I find it increasingly impossible to accept the "official" explanation of 9/11, but I'd be interested to hear from others who may be able to discount the questions raised in this particular film. As I said, I'm probably going to watch it again this evening, but for now I thought I'd start the ball rolling (so to speak).

(Please note: I've read through this thread and others and could see no mention of this film previously on Barbelith. However, I apologise if my research skills have once more proven inadequate and this is not the case.)
 
 
electric monk
15:09 / 01.03.06
An anecdotal bit for ya. Grain of salt and all that.

My wife works for an engineering firm, and on 9/11 the structural engineers in the office predicted the fall of the towers soon after the planes hit. Their explanation at the time mirrors, I think, the official explanation for the collapse: that the burning jet fuel weakened the steel structure leading to implosion. This might explain the weakening of the concrete as well, but that's a guess on my part.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
17:23 / 01.03.06
Hmm... I'm not a structural engineer, which is why I'm still trying to reserve judgement as to how and why the towers collapsed. However, if this official "implosion" / "Pancake" theory does make sense (which I'm FAR from convinced it does), it still doesn't explain how / why WTC tower 7 collapsed,... does it?

Are there any engineers on Barbelith who might enlighten me? (no sarcasm, etc, intended)
 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
  
Add Your Reply