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Sheltered life.

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
Fist Fun
09:54 / 14.02.02
I have no problem with someone earning lots of money, as long as everyone gets a fair shot at it.
I suppose there is never going to be a fair shot though cos everyone is born with different abilities. I think it is important to address that as much as possible by encouraging people to develop their abilities. That would require support from a body funded by general taxtation.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
13:04 / 15.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Rosa d'Ruckus:
Cherry Bomb rocks. That's all I have to say.


**sigh**

Just made my day, that did.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:08 / 15.02.02
You people are probably going to shit over this.

From the The Toronto Star

quote: Conservative leadership candidate Jim Flaherty wants to eliminate homelessness by making it a crime.

"It will be illegal to live on the streets, it will be illegal to live in public places, that's right, on the streets and in the parks," the MPP hoping to be Ontario's next premier told a news conference yesterday.

He immediately came under fire from social activists, municipal politicians, opposition critics and even his Tory leadership rivals who denounced the proposal as a cruel attack on the poor.

"I find his plan absolutely disgusting. It is inhumane and it is totally lacking in compassion," scoffed leadership contender Elizabeth Witmer, charging that Flaherty is ignorant of the root causes of homelessness.

Flaherty made his announcement on University Ave., steps away from where some homeless people had set up camp. With three police officers hovering nearby, he said he would create a special designation of police constable to scoop homeless people off the streets.

"Beginning in an urban area with a serious homeless problem, we will allow for the hiring and training of special constables who would be given powers to identify and provide alternatives to the homeless living on the street," he said.

Homeless people would be taken to shelters, mental health facilities, hospitals, detoxification centres and crisis intervention centres, Flaherty said. "And as a last resort, if there is disorderly conduct, to jail."

Flaherty called it a "compassionate, tough love" approach and said his goal was to eliminate homelessness. New York City has been successful in this regard, he said, adding that the city has seen a huge decrease in the number of people who have died on the streets.

"The reality is many people who find themselves on the streets have mental illnesses, they're off their medication, they have addiction problems," Flaherty said. "These issues have to be grappled with."

Flaherty has positioned himself to the right of his four challengers in the race to replace Premier Mike Harris. Members of the Conservative party vote for a new leader on March 23.

Beric German of the Toronto Disaster Relief Committee was aghast at Flaherty's proposal and charged that Tory government policies have resulted in more people living on the streets. "There's no doubt that the cut in welfare led to a huge number of people being homeless."

Shortly after coming to power in 1995, the Tories slashed welfare rates by 21.6 per cent, cancelled all affordable housing projects and stopped funding second-stage housing, used by women and children escaping abusive partners.

"Criminalize homelessness? What are they going to do? Build huge prisons?" German said. "This is something that sends fear into everyone's heart ... People who are vulnerable will have to hide. If they hide, outreach workers won't find them and many of them may perish."

Flaherty said that because of new mental health legislation brought in by his government — known as Brian's Law — it's easier for police to apprehend people who are mentally ill.

Witmer introduced Brian's Law when she was health minister. It was named for Ottawa sportscaster Brian Smith who was shot and killed in 1995 by a mentally ill man. Witmer also introduced mental health courts aimed at taking people with mental health problems out of the justice system and providing them with health and social supports.

"He has taken a 180 degree turn. He's going to criminalize these people once again," Witmer said, adding that care and treatment should instead be provided in the "least restrictive environment" possible.

NDP Leader Howard Hampton said Flaherty's plan would violate civil liberties. "I think any attempt to implement this kind of policy would run afoul of the Charter of Rights, human rights protections in this province and would probably land Ontario before the United Nations."

Suzan Fraser, a lawyer who works with many mentally ill and homeless clients, said the places Flaherty proposes the homeless be taken to — shelters, hospital, crisis intervention centres — are already full.

"There is a shortage of safe beds and a shortage of shelter beds," she said. "I think this is ludicrous. It's like punishing orphans for not having parents."

Leadership candidate Tony Clement said people in need want a hand up, "not a hard right hook."

He accused Flaherty of hurting the party. "The best way to scare the dickens out of Ontario voters is to put Dickens in our party's platform — as Jim seems bent on doing."

Toronto Mayor Mel Lastman said Flaherty's idea would simply drive homeless people to hide, The Star's Katherine Harding reports.

"And if they hide we can't get them shelter," he said. "We can't even get them a hot drink to keep them alive. I don't want to be responsible for people freezing to death."


Edited to add that no creedence should be given to any statements made by Elizabeth Witmer on this subject.

She was Harris' head hatchet in his "The province has no money so let's close a bunch of hospitals and schools for a swift recovery" campaign.

[ 15-02-2002: Message edited by: Wisdom of idiots ]
 
 
Ganesh
13:15 / 15.02.02
... all of which would seem to make a decent welfare system even more necessary, yeah?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
13:20 / 15.02.02
Wow, alas. You fucking ROCK. "What she said!"

Anyway what I find so interesting about this is that poor are perpetually penalized for being poor. Alas is right, poor people DO pay more. Don¨'t have a bank account? Well there goes a portion of your paycheck to the currency exchange. Can¨'t afford your gas bill this month_? I¨'m sure the utility company will be happy to not only charge you a late fee but also a 150 dollar "deposit" that you'll never see again. Or how bout a payday loan? You don't have the money now, and we know you won't have it in a week's time, so we'll just keep tacking on fees...

Bitchie, I think one of the things you're missing on this is the fact that your situation is not everyone's situation, and its unfair to hold them to it. You can work two jobs. I've worked more than one job to pay the rent or to save whatever. WE can. But it is really unfair to ask that of ANYONE, and some people simply can't. What if your child was autistic, say, and needed more special attention? How easy would it be then? Or what if they had severe asthma? A learning disability? What if they had some emotional issues? What if you lived in a neighborhood where you honestly didn't feel your child would be safe if you left them alone for more than say three hours? What if you couldn't afford or didn't trust anyone to babysit them?

It's not that simple. There's a lot of gray involved. I personally feel that helping the people who need it is very much worth taking your chances on the "cheats."
 
 
BioDynamo
13:25 / 15.02.02
This list here seems like a good starting place for reading up on guaranteed basic income and why it should be.
 
 
Ganesh
13:44 / 15.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Cherry Bomb:
What if your child was autistic, say, and needed more special attention? How easy would it be then? Or what if they had severe asthma? A learning disability? What if they had some emotional issues?


This is a really good point. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty of actually deciding who is and isn't 'capable' of working, our means for deciding are, at best, spectacularly inept and, at worst, heavily weighted against the claimant.

As a psychiatrist, one of my regular bugbears is the constant (and, in recent years, increasing) amount of paperwork I have to fill in as part of the decision process as to whether someone with a mental illness 'deserves' disability allowance. The forms are lengthy but are extremely difficult to fill in as they're geared towards simplistic physical injuries and ask impossibly vague questions (sample: "Is the claimant aware of everyday dangers?", "How long is their condition likely to last?"). Laughably coarse tools with which to make a decision which will drastically affect someone's livelihood.

And if that's the case for fairly straightforward mental illness (schizophrenia, depression), imagine the hopelessness of trying to claim for 'emotional problems' or Cherry's other examples. No allowance is made for the following:

quote:What if you lived in a neighborhood where you honestly didn't feel your child would be safe if you left them alone for more than say three hours? What if you couldn't afford or didn't trust anyone to babysit them?

Even the issue of homelessness is seen as debatable. In Wisdom of Idiots original example, the young woman concerned would not be seen as homeless as, technically at least, she had a home to go to (the parental one) but had chosen not to live there. Becoming voluntarily homeless, under the UK system, doesn't qualify one for housing.

quote:I personally feel that helping the people who need it is very much worth taking your chances on the "cheats."

I completely agree.
 
 
alas
00:51 / 16.02.02
quote:Wow, alas. You fucking ROCK. "What she said!"

I'm having a sally fields moment here. ("you like me? you really like me?")

ta, cherry bomb. i wish you were going to be in london this week...

And bitchiekittie--I do like you, really really really truly and i really really really hope you don't have take a second job.

alas!
 
  

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