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Sheltered life.

 
  

Page: (1)234

 
 
pointless and uncalled for
16:10 / 11.02.02
Just wanted really to share this because in a way I find the whole situation very disturbing.

Yesterday, while I wa attending one of my photography classes, my tutor was showing us some work that he had done as part of an exhibit for a charity (pretty sure that it was the United Way). The whole theme of the work was on Homeless People and there was this one picture where a 17 year old girl was sitting on a matress in a shelter.

There are matresses either side of her and the amount of the room that is visible in the pciture is in disarray.

The story behind this picture is such that the girl is pregnant, by about seven months. She already had a kid at the age of fourteen and that baby was adopted by her parents. Niether of the children's fathers are present and as I understand it, not willing to be present. By present I mean involved in the life of the child or mother. The girl, for whatever reasons, refuses to live with her parents. Because she is below the age of majority she is not eligible for welfare. Because she doesn't have a "born" child and is not physically able to attend school, through the advanced term of her pregnancy, she is not eligible for any other form of social assistance. I'm not sure what other help might be considered but as my tutor explained, she has no recourse to any assistance.

This girl lives in this shelter in a communal room. She eats on the hand outs from charities and the proceeds of begging.

Maybe I am overly liberal or socialist but I find this state of affairs to be frankly no less than despicable.

Every time place that there is a crack in the system this girl has fallen through.

This is not an uncommon tale.
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:34 / 11.02.02
which is why theres a million different reasons to get pissed at your (our, my, every) government. the way they spend our money on useless crap, the bureaucratic bullshit that a person has to go through to get what they need, the fact that so many live freely and completely off of welfare when they are completely capable of working while others have to struggle to just eat once in a while.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
18:04 / 11.02.02
I think what pisses me off the most about this is how some people say "Well, she made her bed...."

While some go about extolling capitalism, they forget that in a system like that, some people win and some people lose...and the losers are human being as well. I guess that's why I have worked in group homes for the past 14 years even though the pay is shit.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:18 / 11.02.02
Yeah, maybe she did make her bed and what of all of those other people that made their beds that we've handed out to countless times because they're too fucking slack to help themselves.

I know that the above statement will garner a lot of criticism but I'm refering to those that are in a position to make the effort required to get off of the streets an back into a self sustainable state.

I know it's probably wrong of me to say this but I hold my opinions and haven't yet been informed as to why they should be different.

For years I've walked past people who have just opted to drop out. They continuously ask for money and for what? A place to live? Booze and drugs more like.

Recently a homeless guy confronted me as to why I wouldn't give him any money. My reply was that if I thought for one moment the money that I could give to him would go some way to helping him get off the streets, I would give freely. His response, credible or not, was that he didn't want to be on the streets and that it was difficult to get off the streets. My simple response to this is that sitting on a street corner getting drunk and stoned isn't going to make it easier.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
18:22 / 11.02.02
about 15 years ago i knew this polish bloke. life was really hard in his country, from food queues to having one state record company - life in every quarter was held back. when the wall came down and the 'cold war' was over, he was dismayed to see a whole new bunch of problems appear in his country as a direct result of capitalism - drug abuse, unemployment. it was not what he had envisaged, and i don't think he'd believed me when i said what the downside was.

[edited to add]: i've never been on the streets but perhaps if i was, alcohol and/or drugs might make it more bearable. a lot of street people have mental health problems, too. try getting a job in that situation!

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: shortfatdyke ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:35 / 11.02.02
alcohol/drugs may make life more bearable but really is that the answer.

I know from my feelings is that I wouldn't want to have to make life bearable like that. I'd want to get on my feet again. In a way my own situation is pride, I've looked after myself since I've left college.

The mental health issue is different. It's not always as big as people make out, but despite that there is a clear defficiency in social assistance systems to recognise and deal with this. On the other side of the coin though, there's a lot of people who try to abuse the systems.

In essence we're in a complicated and difficult situation and I understand that working it out will not be an easy task, but we shouldn't be leaving it.

People like that girl should not be allowed go unattended, if that means that we help everyone then so be it.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
18:45 / 11.02.02
WoI - i wouldn't be so sure about the mental health thing. seems to be fairly common (here in the uk at least). i had a breakdown a few years back, was off work for seven months. my colleagues - who i'd worked with for ten years - didn't even send me a get well card and when i went back to work no one even spoke to me for about a month. now, either i'm more unpopular than i had imagined, or people were just too uncomfortable to address it! i expect i'll have a huge amount of trouble getting another job with my mental health history.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:54 / 11.02.02
The major justification that lets people accept this sort of thing, I've been thinking recently, works like:

1. society is so fluid these days, it's possible to achieve anything if you put your mind to it ("anyone could be the president")
1a. thus if you fail, it's your fault and no-one else's
2. you can't rely on anyone else to give you handouts, you have to look after number one (but, combined with 1, this still appears possible)
2a. thus don't give anything to anyone else, cos they wouldn't deserve it

We are (in the West) mostly not in a position any longer where we can't give to people, but that would mean we weren't buying anything, wouldn't it? So it's not in the interests of groups with media influence to promote anything other than a selfish attitude. Well, it's not in their short term interests; long term, of course, a society where people are allowed to fall through the gaps down to the lowest of the low is not good for anyone which is one of the reasons we have welfare/social support systems in the first place.

The idea that circumstances can force people into situations that they can't get out of without help has really taken a beating. You try telling someone a hundred years ago that they could always get out of things without the help of others - they'd laugh at you.
 
 
passer
19:26 / 11.02.02
I hate to read the phrase "abusing the system." It always makes my skin crawl in memory of the charming racist propaganda put out in the US about welfare queens popping out babies to get a bigger check.

Even qualifying for numerous assistance programs you're far from living in the lap of luxury. That being said I have a hard time envisioning the hordes slack individuals looking to mooch off our hard earned tax money.

You sneer at the man begging for change, but how do you know how he got there? How much do people have to go through before they're eligible for aid?

Society is kind enough to stigmatize people for both mental illness and addiction while providing scant aid for either. I have what I consider great health coverage and a good job. I can't afford therapy, much less medication. If I ever get to the point of being unstable enough to require it I can easily see myself out on the street and completely unable to support myself, much less able to jump through the numerous hoops to get assistance from the government.

It's as though if you're in need of any kind of assistance you are required to deprive yourself of all joy, live in shame, and jump at the first exploitive low wage job someone throws your way. If you can't get with that program, well too bad. You should have tried harder.

If there were a zero unemployment rate and livable minimum wage then I'd be all for restricting aid. As it is, I see more propaganda about people taking advantage of the system than people actually doing so.
 
 
Naked Flame
20:06 / 11.02.02
I was homeless for a bit. I didn't beg, I busked, and I was lucky enough to sleep on various friend's floors, even flatsit for a couple who were out of town.

I am, by my own admission, the world's worst busker. I pick all the wrong tunes and I'm always playing the hook- the recognisable bit- when my pitch is totally dead. So I didn't eat much. It isn't up there in my top ten summers.

How did it happen? Our landlord terminated my lease and retained my deposit. This is reasonably standard practice in Glasgow, and left me with no money whatsoever- even though I was on benefit, losing my address held up my income support for weeks. And I had precisely no chance of getting a job with no fixed abode. How did I get out of it? I fell in love, and she saved my ass. This is not a method that is going to work for everyone. I certainly didn't find any other workable ways out in the few months I was homeless. And this is how tricky it gets before you end up on the streets. It gets a hell of a lot worse.

I always give to street beggars, at least once a day when I'm out. I buy the Big Issue. If I don't have change I'll always at least acknowledge the person's presence. I know that 'there but for the grace of God go I.' And I find the current stigmatisation of the homeless/poor/asylum seekers etc as cheats and swindlers deeply, deeply disturbing. It's Nazism- blaming social problems on a 'them' and then 'coming down hard on them' to eradicate the 'roots of the problem'.... gah, BS BS BS.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
23:47 / 11.02.02
I wouldn't say I've been homeless, but I've been in a situation where I didn't know where my next meal was coming from, and as a result I didn't eat for a few days. A couple times of that, and I learned to get food any way possible, up to and including theft. I didn't think I would ever end up stealing anything, but when you've gone three days without any food you start getting sick of the way things are and do what you can to change it.

So I usually give money to the homeless when I can. I'll ask for a story or something in return, some nugget of information. You'll learn the weirdest, most arcane stuff from the homeless. Case in point:

A friend of mine is a Walker. Goes on walks, forgets where he is, and eventually wanders back. Sometimes he'll be gone for a good twelve hours. He told me he once met a homeless man who showed him how to play Blackjack with Sean Connery over the phone in exchange for a sandwhich (I still have the number, if anyone's interested...)
 
 
The Monkey
00:14 / 12.02.02
Vis-a-vis welfare in the US:

Sadly, there are scammers, but they're not who they're painted in the media to be. They're not bums or criminal-masterminds disguised as trailer moms:

They're the middle management. Yup...bureaucracy hits a new low. Some pencil pusher or accountant [or in the medical field, doctor or managed-care facilitator] relaizes that as the only pipeline between the Social Services pockets and the people on the ground, they can regulate information. Tack on a few kids here, garnish with some non-existent medication there...voila! Your kid's college fund jumps from BU to Haavaad...or you get a BMW and a golf cart.
 
 
The Monkey
00:31 / 12.02.02
Then again, as some who has sat on the check-handing-out side of things in a small [largely white] mid-rural town in Kentucky, there is really something that curdles your blood about the chain-smoker wearing nowt but pricey mall labels and $200 Nikes demanding his/her cheque...and furthermore, aggressively denigrating the offer of free financial counseling and budget management because of their "constitutional rights" to spend the money as they please....
It really didn't help that I spent the morning at Head Start with their kids, and thus had intimate knowledge of their habit of failing to nourish their children, and their novel practices in "discipline" involving belt-buckles and lit cigarettes.

Admittedly, all these examples are from one sick little town, and don't even cover everyone in that sick little town. But somehow, between middle-class apathy, political finger-pointing and juggling/polishing of numbers, and what I experienced above, I really get daunted by the idea of what all needs to be fixed.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:14 / 12.02.02
Surely one of the greatest problems (besides poverty and homelessness) is that everyone who has a television and a radio is encouraged to think that we cannot survive or be okay in ourselves without the Nikes and the whathaveyou... I think it's important to note here that when you're dirt-poor, having support from your peers is incredibly important for survival. How do you get peer pressure? Dress right. This isn't scamming, in my book, this is another way of surviving an incredibly difficult existence.

<sloganeerin'>And hey, don't just be angry with your government, overthrow them.</sloganeerin'>
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
06:28 / 12.02.02
So, hang on....we need to save the photogenic, luminous-eyed teen mom beggars, but fuck the others, who are drunks and con artists?

Wisdom, you've excelled yourself. I think this is actually one of the most numpty-heided, fuckwitted and comically stupid things I have ever heard.

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Deletia ]
 
 
Ganesh
08:21 / 12.02.02
quote:Originally posted by w1rebaby:
The major justification that lets people accept this sort of thing, I've been thinking recently, works like:

1. society is so fluid these days, it's possible to achieve anything if you put your mind to it ("anyone could be the president")
1a. thus if you fail, it's your fault and no-one else's
2. you can't rely on anyone else to give you handouts, you have to look after number one (but, combined with 1, this still appears possible)
2a. thus don't give anything to anyone else, cos they wouldn't deserve it.


I think there's a lot of truth in this; in some ways, it's the flipside of the whole 'classless society' schtick. Something I read recently (Toby Young's 'How To Lose Friends And Influence People') put forward a fairly reasonable case for the US having gone further down that particular path than anyone else, since it's considered (in its own mythology, anyway) to be the ultimate meritocracy ("...where a kid without a cent, he can grow up to be President"). Alternative forms of democracy - India, say, with its still-strong caste system, or even Britain with its class divisions - provide alternative 'reasons' why some individuals might be reduced to begging, than 'laziness'.

As you say, though, W1rebaby, the idea that some people are born so disadvantaged that they can't 'make something of themselves' is on the wane, almost quaintly Dickensian. I think it's a dangerous concept to abandon...

I'm aware that my attitude towards begging (and, to some extent, State 'handouts', although I hate the term) is incredibly inconsistent. One thing I learned from visiting India, however, was that inconsistency is one way of staying sane in the face of overwhelming poverty. Yes I can afford to live in a much more luxurious manner than many, no I can't solve the problem by giving away all my money (and that would make me unhappy), yes I nevertheless feel obliged to give money to beggars (for whatever reasons, 'correct' or not) at some times and not at other times. I'm aware that I am more likely to give money to beggars who are a) female, b) young or c) physically-attractive - but I've sort of made my peace with that.

I think I'd be wary of anyone who claimed to have developed any kind of consistent approach here because either a) they'd have given away everything they owned, or b) they'd be one of those people who affect pride at being 'strong' enough not to personally give to others, justifying it either through 'they're all slackers/alcoholics/junkies' or 'the Government should take care of them'.

Being in the position of hearing 'hard luck stories' in some depth on a regular basis, I'm also wary of making the deceptively straightforward distinction between 'deserving' and 'undeserving' on the basis of perceived victimhood or its absence. Even in WoI's portrayal above, there are areas I'd want to explore further (the "for whatever reasons" she's not living with her parents, for example) - and part of me would remain aware that I'm making judgments based on a still from a photography class ('reasonable exploitation'? why was that particular subject chosen?) with a backstory that hasn't come from the horse's mouth. Not saying it's in any way invalid but I'd bear in mind that the girl's story has come to me through several 'filters', at least some of which may have a vested interest in portraying her this or that way.

Conversely, the 'wasters' - the drug/alcohol users, people who one judges 'not making an effort' usually have a good reason for doing so, once the whole story's explored.

All of which takes me to no conclusion in particular. That it's a complex mess, I suppose, that 'responsibility' rarely lies solely with either individual or society, and that appearances can be misleading.

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
08:35 / 12.02.02
So basically you're saying, 'it's not my problem', with extensive liberal affectations?
 
 
Ganesh
08:39 / 12.02.02
No, I think I'm saying it is my problem - individually and collectively - but reserving the right to be inconsistent, personally, in how I approach it.

With, as you say, extensive liberal affections.

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
08:53 / 12.02.02
Um, yeah... apologies for senseless cattiness. Plead extenuating crankiness.
 
 
lentil
10:28 / 12.02.02
Hmmmmm...... I agree with Ganesh about the necessity of inconsistency, it sounds as if your reactions to the poverty you witnessed in India were similar to the conclusions (actually conclusions is too definite - amorphous ideas is closer to the mark) i reached after spending some time in Indonesia. But that's a whole different kettle of fish, involving as it does the whole post - colonialist minefield.
I really wanted to add tupppence to W1rebaby's point that negating "the idea that some people are born so disadvantaged that they can't 'make something of themselves'" is harmful. Although i support myself, I was able to get a liveable day job without too much effort because I've had an education that allows me to walk into a temp agency and get a crappy job straight away, which i couldn't have had if my parent's weren't able to fund me through four years' study in london; a stable family life that's given me sufficient mental health to get on with shit, and whatever other advantages my comfortable upbringing has given me. But I don't always make the most of my life, i sometimes smoke myself into pot oblivion and wallow in uselessness, and think about what that sort of action could end up leading to if i didn't have that springboard.
Which isn't to belittle any of the modest achievements my life may contain so far, or mean that the effort i put into, say, painting, is any less valid - it's just a melodramatic "what if?"

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: MaChine Lentil ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:05 / 12.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Deletia:
So, hang on....we need to save the photogenic, luminous-eyed teen mom beggars, but fuck the others, who are drunks and con artists?

Wisdom, you've excelled yourself. I think this is actually one of the most numpty-heided, fuckwitted and comically stupid things I have ever heard.

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Deletia ]


Have you actually seen the collection from which the picture comes. Have you paid any real attention to what I've been saying.

Judging by your frankly ridiculous response indicates that this is not the case.

When ever I post about something you seem to be bent on playing some bizarre negative spin on whatever I say.

I'm not sure what it is that I've done to you to deserve this crass hurling of insults but frankly unless you have an opinion to venture or some kind of constructive response then I'd appreciate it if you could keep your petty-minded reactions to the Conversation.

The type of response that you have entered above is about as welcome as TK's pictures of cocks.
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:09 / 12.02.02
mm, think theres something thats missed here - there ARE a boatload of people taking advantage of "the system" and they are the ones fucking it up for everyone else.

there are people dealing drugs or working under the table jobs and collecting welfare - while other people are sleeping on the street with literally nothing to help them out of it

there are people working the rules to their advantage, and using it to escape responsibility

there are people asking for spare change who are spending it on drugs, drink, or, in more populated areas, using it as added income (this does happen, I lived in a part of the city popular with tourists and college kids and there were several "bums" who lived in nicer places than I did)

I also had a friend who had a baby, lived with her mom in a nice house collecting welfare and those little baskets people make up with the food donated to food drives for "the needy". Im not saying that she shouldnt have gotten help if shed needed it, only that she didnt need it, and there are plenty that do

she would also talk about how if you make a certain amount by working, youd get cut off of welfare (and it wasnt a very large amount, I remember), and once you added in your expenses for working it was much better to just not work at all. now tell me, how do those restrictions help anyone get back on their feet?

the rules arent set up to pick people up and help them move along, and they arent set up in a way to help those that are REALLY in need (whos helping the homeless? feed them, put them up for a night, and send them back out into the cold to fend for themselves the other 364 days of the year)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:18 / 12.02.02
Okay, Haus and WoI: I'm going to be quite harsh here, because I don't want a perfectly good (albeit emotive) thread devolving into a slanging match. You've both had one cranky shit-flinging post each: please stick to the issue at hand here rather than attacking each other. You can express your views on the issues themselves as strongly as you want, but from now on in this thread, any more purely ad hominem stuff is in danger of being removed, for purely practical purposes.
 
 
Ganesh
12:21 / 12.02.02
How do we know there's X percentage of people cheating "the system"? I mean, sure, we can probably all name at least a few mates who do casual work while signing on, spend their dole money on alcohol or even <gasp> deal drugs - but somehow we don't seem to hugely resent the ones we actually know. I don't, anyway.

I'm a little wary of getting angry about a whole nebulous mass of 'cheaters' out there when the stereotype presented for our disapproval (UK 'benefit cheats' ads: flighty, sneery hairdresser fucks off early from work and spends her Income Support on designer labels; bloke in pub works and signs on, yet pleads poverty in the pub) aren't especially recognisable from Real Life.

I'm not saying I never resent paying taxes to subsidise so-and-so's lifestyle, blah blah blah. It's just that those people I do know who 'cheat the system' I can generally understand. It's like when the Tories tried to stir up antipathy towards single mothers, suggesting they deliberately became pregnant to hike themselves up the Council housing list. Maybe I'm being terribly naive, but I've yet to meet any single mother that actually fits that stereotype.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:26 / 12.02.02


[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: Wisdom of idiots ]
 
 
Ganesh
12:41 / 12.02.02
As Flyboy says, WoI, you've defended yourself in your previous post. How about either tackling the serious point within Haus's cranky post (ie. he's suggesting you're drawing a distinction between 'deserving' and 'undeserving' individuals on the basis of photogenicity/gender/age/whatever) or trying to reengage with the discussion in general (and it's a discussion I find interesting) rather than allowing yourself to be sidetracked into off-topic personal stuff?

After all, isn't keeping your thread on track the best 'defence' of all?

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:47 / 12.02.02
If you wish to, then please *do* do it in another thread, potus. Flyboy is quite right - I should not have allowed my dander to reach that stage of upness. Must-channel-reptilian-self.

Mmm. Nice cool blood.

Ganesh makes a very good point. When friends of ours do dodgy, grey economy, "gaming the system" stuff, we never seem to mind that much. This includes cash-in-hand work or trying to get a little more out of the system, but actually, you know, some people on this board might know (whisper) drug dealers. You know, the people they buy their drugs from.

So, by that paradigm, why should people be condemned for dealing (or indeed taking) drugs if they are homeless, but not if they have nice flats. *Unless* those flats are secured at the "taxpayer's expense".

What's the message here? Because it seems to be rather confused...

If we assume that there is a class either living "freely", which presumably means to a good standard, on public benefits, or do live on the streets, but do so by choice and have no real desire not to live on the streets, and that both of these groups deserve our disapprobation.

Are we then creating Victorian paradigms of the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor? Where the deserving poor are grateful for what they receive as largesse from us as individuals or as a state while working hard (but legally) to improve their lot and spending their little sportulum responsibly, and the undeserving power in whom entrepreneurial instincts we might praise in a lawyer are held up as contemptible.

So what if somebody wants to get off the streets and into a job, but to put down the deposit on a flat (and thus have access to a wardrobe, a shower, an address and other useful things when going to interviews) he needs housing benefit, and to get housing benefit he has to claim fraudulently already to be living at a friend's house? Or has to lie to the landlord and claim already to have a flat or a job in order to get a flat or a job? Are these acceptable instances of gaming the system?

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Deletia ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:51 / 12.02.02
(Double post)

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Deletia ]
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:53 / 12.02.02
ganesh - I know it becasue Ive seen it. its worrisome, makes me wonder how many people are starving, suffering, or ill because of these peoples indescretions?

it IS an issue, it is a problem. theres only so much to go around, and its being wasted on red tape, on "helping" people who dont need any help but supposedly fit the criteria, on people who care nothing for being independant.

Ive been homeless, Ive gone hungry, Ive suffered. but you know what? I was physically and emotionally able to work, I had friends whos houses I could borrow to shower, I didnt have a kid to support at the time. so I struggled and I made do by myself. Im fully aware that some people dont have those luxuries - those are the people that need it, not me, not the chick living with/off of her parents

when you take something you dont deserve or need, you are taking from other people who do - the money, the resources, the time and space. how, exactly, is that not wrong?
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:58 / 12.02.02
oh, please, haus. I never said that drug dealing in and of itself is eeeevil (and for the record, I do not have a dealer as I never indulge). I said only that a person who has money coming into their pockets under the goverments assumption (based on the individuals deceptions, no less) that the person is needy should actually be needy, or else is essentially taking away from someone who is. its deceitful and utterly, terribly wrong. I do not condone such behavior from anyone, and I resent the implication that I do or would
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:00 / 12.02.02
investigating the possibility that I may be drawing a distinction based on "photogenicity/gender/age/whatever"

Haus is wrong in this assumption that I hold this line of demarcation between those that deserve and those that don't.

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: Wisdom of idiots ]
 
 
Ganesh
13:10 / 12.02.02
quote:Originally posted by bitchiekittie:
ganesh - I know it becasue Ive seen it. its worrisome


Okay, I'm willing to believe you've seen a "boatload" of benefit cheats (that's an odd turn of phrase, BTW...); I haven't. In the UK, anyway, the system of Income Support is pretty meagre and it's difficult to imagine anyone who had a free choice actually voluntarily choosing to live that way.

So... I'm guessing there's either a difference in benefits systems in our respective countries or a difference in how we perceive others' lifestyles.

quote:Ive been homeless, Ive gone hungry, Ive suffered. but you know what? I was physically and emotionally able to work

Good for you. It's not necessarily the best yardstick of what is and isn't 'deserving', though, is it? Should you have had to go through that? Perhaps comparably, I graduated in time to work the gruelling 100-hours-plus junior doctor 'intern' year, and it almost killed me - I'd never, however, argue that it was a good thing, and I'm happy that junior doctors' hours have since been reduced. I don't think my experience of suffering means it's the way things should be.

quote:when you take something you dont deserve or need, you are taking from other people who do - the money, the resources, the time and space. how, exactly, is that not wrong?

Because "need" and "deserve" are not easily quanitifiable terms, yet they're loaded with value judgment. I'm arguing that it takes time and empathy to evaluate someone else's degree of need, and the fact that we tend to forgive 'benefit sponging' in our friends perhaps indicates a slight tendency to err on the side of demonising when one is not in full possession of the facts...
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:10 / 12.02.02
Wisdom, I suggest once again that if you have an issue you begin a thread in the conversation or, if you feel it merits it, Policy. This is turning into a discussion about the deserving and undeserving poor, not the deserving and undeserving Potus. If you feel able to contribute, kindly do so.

BK - OK. But what about the grey areas? If you were aware that by claiming benefits you could give your child a higher standard of living than she currently has, even though you were currently able to feed and clothe her to an adequate degree, would you do it? Would you feel able to condemn anyone who did, on the grounds that they are using resources earmarked for people who cannot provide that adequate level of feeding and clothing. And, of so, why shoudl you not contribute the surplus from your wages after providing an adequate standard of living to ensure that others can as well? If the pool of cash is too small, why not deepen it by more resdistributive taxation?

I'm interested by Rosa's point about the importance of close-knit commnity. Case in point - I just got my hair cut, which cost about $25. If I had the time (being unemployed) and a friend to do it, I could have had hir cut my hair and saved $25. But what if I had neither the money nor the friend? On a broader level, should people with these networks be penalised financially for having friends?

I think there are far more issues here than can be resolved by a simple "I have been there, and know whereof I speak". Because nobody has been in all of those places at the same time, and been able to compare and contrast.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:11 / 12.02.02
Okay - WoI, can I suggest you look at the exchange between Dread Pirate Crunchy and Ganesh on the previous page of this thread? You'll notice that 'Nesh refutes Crunchy's slightly inflammatory question in a simple, direct manner, without needing to tell us all how insulted he is. It's an example that might be worth following.

Maybe you could explain a little more about the reason behind the apparent huge shift in tone between your first and second posts in this thread as well, because I think that's what got Haus riled in the first place. There does seem to be some kind of demarcation going on, and I'd be interested if you could go into further detail about what the criteria for that demarcation is.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:12 / 12.02.02
quote:Are we then creating Victorian paradigms of the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor?

Yes, we are, and as long as we view state social programs as "us giving charity to people", I think that is unavoidable.

When we make a personal choice to give to people, we evaluate them and give to the visible ones who we like the look of. Unfortunately, this isn't really a good mechanism for producing society-wide positive effects. Sometimes, giving housing to the miserable old alcy on the corner who spits at children will actually have more positive effect than paying for the waif who doesn't want to live with her parents.

It's a problem with all large charities - they have to advertise with images that people will feel sympathy towards (pandas, dolphins, starving children) in order to get money for more important but less photogenic projects (saving some horrible little insect to preserve an ecosystem, free condoms for prostitutes). It also illustrates why charity cannot be an effective replacement for a state social support program, no matter what Mr Bush might think.

The reason the state should provide for the disadvantaged isn't because we're being nice to them all individually. It's to attempt to (a) preserve a concept of basic human dignity, (b) prevent the divisions between rich and poor causing crime and social upheaval, and (c) allow every member of the society a chance to be happier and more productive. (a) might be ethical, but (b) and (c) are almost purely expedient motives. It clearly makes no sense for a society to leave people miserable and begging on the streets when they could be happy, tax-paying citizens.

Perhaps if we could get away from this idea of welfare as "my taxes going to you" but rather see it as "our taxes going to a project", it wouldn't get so personalised and we wouldn't get these damaging stereotypes.
 
  

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