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LURVE SPELL

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
GreenMann
11:10 / 27.08.03
Can anyone help me with a tricky love spell?

I'm planning my very first love spell for the next full moon, 10 sept, on someone I love for the short, medium or long term (I can wait).

She has a sort-of boyfriend and it seems like a light, superficial relationship. Although I believe it isn't love, I don't want to harm them. I want to do a love spell on her while allowing their relationship run its natural course.

Is this possible? Has anyone done a love spell already? Any advice, do's, don't's etc?
 
 
Dr Dee Light
11:32 / 27.08.03
What I'd recommend is doing Magick, or whatever else you find most effective in personality restructuring, to create the ideal "you" that she would be attraced to. Create the you that would make her the happiest and give her the most potential for growth (p.s. sometimes this means been challenging and independant yourself).

This way you're not fucking around with anyone else, you get to improve yourself, and it short circuts that "fuck up of all fuck ups" in love magick, i.e. your obsessive desire will usually have the opposite effect of what you require, and love magick is most effective when you don't really give a shit.

Put yourself in a light trance, Visualise yourself as you'd like to be, knowing that she's attracted to you, step into your body, feel how it feels to know that shes attracted to you, and repeat.

Then be patient, and remember Patience is the art of NOT Waiting, i.e. feeling good about where you are right here, right now, with the calm knowing that it will work out.

Happy Hunting !
 
 
GreenMann
11:48 / 27.08.03
Thanx Dr Light.
 
 
Tamayyurt
14:24 / 27.08.03
I've done love spells but they always go wrong somehow. I suggest you don't direct them at a specific person. Do a general love spell and within 3 months it's always worked if this is the girl for you she'll be pulled in by the vortex o' love if she's not it doesn't matter cause by then you would've found someone who loves you (and you love). If you do want to work something on a specific person make it a fuck spell or a get-to-know-better spell those tend to work better.
 
 
GreenMann
14:33 / 27.08.03
impulsivelad, thanx, your advice is really helpful too!

Best wishes.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
18:11 / 27.08.03
Gosh, is it that time again already?

Here's how this discussion goes: someone in the grip of what appears to be an unrequited passion wants a love spell. Various suggestions get made, until finally someone cracks and says...

Hey! Wake up! What would you think if someone put a post in the Lab asking for techniques of brainwashing or hypnosis to get someone to sleep with them?

At which point the original poster looks a bit unhappy and explains that this is nothing like that, because it's about love, not mind control...

Look, if magick is real, it has ethical dimensions, right? And using it to make someone love you is not ethical, even if it's possible. In no way, shape, or form is using magick on someone a demonstration of love. It's the act of a possessive, a monster, or a fool. Either this person has or develops feelings for you or they don't. Much of that depends on you. There is little or no hope of your having a relationship worth monkey snot with them if you're prepared to violate their free will in order to get them to like you. No, no, not at all.

So take a big step back, breath deeply and count to ten. Then sit down with yourself and see whether this is someone you care about, or simply someone you find superficially attractive. If the former, then you've got some work to do. If the latter, then look somewhere else. But under no circumstances is magick the answer.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:40 / 27.08.03
Thank you, sam Vega in Person.

Simply, the best way to ensure that their relationship runs its natural course is NOT TO TRY TO HEX IT. Next week, rocket science. If you *are* going to cast a love spell, why not do it after that relationship *has* run its course, if you don't want to affect it.

Once their relationship has ended, assuming it does, and if you are still around and interested, the best way to find out whether she is a suitable recipient and competent provider of love is to talk to her, ask her out, maybe go to dinner, go out for a while...see how it all goes. It may not go at all. That's the pisser about human beings being autonomous.
 
 
h3r
18:46 / 27.08.03
sam thnx for setting us straight.
your perspective is a very important one.
but although one has to stay aware of ethic responsibility, I don't think it's intrinsically wrong to try to manipulate other people(or rather, their environments, including ourselves,as dr dee light suggests). we are not talking about forceful behavior (like true mindcontrol) but rather about manipulating the environment we are in and thereby changing the likelihood of another persons interaction with the environment and ourselves.
doesnt have to be bad, I believe it can be done responsibly.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:52 / 27.08.03
And I think there is a reasonable difference between "cast a spell to make somebody love you" and "cast a spell by buying some new clothes and getting a couple of tickets to that band everyone seems to like, once she breaks up with her boyfriend". Could we be clear on which we are talking about?
 
 
Seth
04:55 / 28.08.03
Magic to make yourself more lovable = fine

Magic to increase the probability of chance meetings = verging on stalker behaviour

Magic to make someone love you = sad loser, horrific borderline rapist attitude, may as well buy that dark tower in the desert and employ minions
 
 
GreenMann
09:23 / 28.08.03
Thanx everyone for such a wide variety of opinions, especially impulsivelad and Dr Light! As a result, i'm becoming more+more inclined to do a general spell rather than a specific one.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:54 / 28.08.03
Well, I ws going to chip in on this one, but Sam Vega, Haus and set appear to have covered pretty much everything.

Magick happens. This is for real. That means we have to think about what we're doing and whether it's okay to do it.
 
 
h3r
17:48 / 28.08.03
of course its always a good idea to do a divination before a ritual/spell just to reflect on the potential outcome..
my choice is tarot
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
19:27 / 28.08.03
If you need a divination to tell you that date-rape by magick isn't fair, you probably can't read the letters on your shoes spelling out the words 'left' and 'right'.

Rant aside, here it is: magick of this kind is about having an edge. It's about putting your thumb on the scales of the universe. It's about getting something you have not, in the normal way, earned. In other words, it's about cheating (and while we're at it, the scales analogy isn't bad: perhaps it's a zero-sum game, and for your pleasure, someone else must suffer). That simply will not mesh with love. I'm not convinced it does much good in the work arena either, but that's a worry for another day.

On the other hand using magickal/meditative exercises to raise your energy, to open yourself to the other person, or even a divination/vision quest to get advice on whether this is a good idea, whether it's what you really want or just an infatuation proceeding from a well-proportioned body and a ready smile - those things are up to you. I'd guess you'd do better to spend a couple of extra hours in the gym, think things over, and then just be yourself with the object of your affections, but I'm basically a mundane kinda person anyway.

More generally, it disturbs me that people seem to view magick the way early industrialists viewed mining: as if there's no downside and there's no such thing as pollution, it's an infinite source of effortless fixes. Never mind what it might do to other people to carry on as if everyone can just be edited to your choice, what is it going to do to you?

There's a test question here which I hope may spark an interesting discussion.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:00 / 28.08.03
I'd hesitate to lable any and all supposed love-spells as "date-rape by magick", but I get what you mean, SVIP. h3r's advice is spot-on: use your preferred method of divination before every spell. However, you should consult your own conscience first-- if it looks dodgy, don't do it.
 
 
Papess
20:12 / 28.08.03
Also, if you try a love spell on someone you may not now too well, you could be just cursing yourself.

I like Imp's suggestion to make a spell for non-specific love interest. That way, you are more likely to end up with someone better matched to you.

Truly, if your interest is not responding to normal advances, this could be a blessing.


I don't really agree with the "cheating" theory, SVIP...but I suspect it would make a good thread on it's own! Be an interesting topic...
 
 
Seth
04:28 / 29.08.03
It's symptomatic of a more widespread issue in magic (and elsewhere): the notion that consequences aren't an issue if your actions and motivations aren't discovered. It's ethics judged by what one can be held accountable for, and if your actions can't be traced then you can't be held to account for them. It's an attitude that's rife in magic because of its acausal nature (cause and effect can't be empirically linked).

I can understand and sympathise with loneliness and desperation, with obsession and infatuation, with love and compassion. However, if it's clouding your judgement to this extent you need to be pulled up sharp. Performing workings on other people without their knowledge or consent is more often than not a really shitty thing to do.

To put this into perspective: what if I performed a counter-working? A spell that would seek out anyone connected with Barbelith who has used love magic to manipulate and control people in the past, with the effect of making them lose their current partner (or next partner if they're single right now). It's clearly a fucked up thing to do, which is why I'm not going to do it. But it would be poetic justice. And it does clearly illustrate why magic of this sort ain't helping anyone...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:24 / 29.08.03
Yeah, Mordant, I know, but I'm just hammering the point home a little. It's only in the context of magick that you can even ask this question in public. If you swap the spell for a pill or a James Bond kinda strobe-light, people immediately get queasy. I've asked before why people don't think the same way about magick - I think it's the "well, it's not like it's real thing", but I could be wrong.

Incidentally, anyone who wants to play on the Test Question thread, I'm going to reveal the point of it later today, so get your responses in by lunch time if you can.
 
 
rizla mission
11:15 / 29.08.03
I too feel that throwing around words like rapist and stalker around is a little unnecessary.

GreenMann's original scheme does sound pretty dubious, but hopefully his intentions are good and he'll have taken on board these suggestions/criticisms and altered the focus of his magick accordingly.. no need for the namecalling and accusations.. after all, he did start this thread due to worries over whether or not it was a good idea, rather than, y'know, just doing it..

For what it's worth, in my limited experience I've found that magick works best in terms of altering your own personal subjective world, and all attempts to change somebody else's life for them are EXTREMELY dodgy and should probably only be attempted if you know exactly what you're doing and have the co-operation of the person involved..

(Some sanctimonious advice there from somebody who hasn't actually done any serious magic for over two years..)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:32 / 29.08.03
I too feel that throwing around words like rapist and stalker around is a little unnecessary.

Okay. What would you call someone who proposed to break up someone else's relationship and by use of some unnamed means of external control, cause that person to enter a relationship with them instead? Suppose the mechanism under discussion were not magick, but hypnosis, drugs, or psychology? Suppose it were a ray gun?

I'm not saying GreenMan is a slathering monster, I'm saying ze hasn't thought about what ze's asking. I'm continually astounded that people who are otherwise quite awake to issues of control, totalitarianism, and power have this blind spot about somehow forcing someone to feel for them. I've raised the issue of magick and ethics before, and it gets a surprisingly soggy response; I think the 'look, no hands' disconnect which magick promises makes people believe it's ethically neutral - no blame can attach because there's no direct connection in normal-world logic. It ain't so.

I accept your point that GreenMan was looking for advice rather than just diving in, and I'm even prepared to believe that ze wanted to be told not to do this. Whatever the truth of that, however, I see no reason to moderate my descriptions of what a 'love spell' actually is unless you can give me better, more accurate terms.

You know, in no story or legend I've ever come across has the 'love spell' been anything other than a disaster. Either the hero uses it as a naive brat, and reaps dire consequences before releasing the victim and finding love elsewhere, or some poor demoiselle is afflicted with an echantment by an evil old sod. I simply cannot think of one source where a 'love spell' is less than catastrophic at best, evil at worst. Where do our hip, urban crowd technocrats get the idea that they're better than Rohypnol for Chaotes?
 
 
GreenMann
14:26 / 29.08.03
Sam Vega in Person, "rapist and stalker?" Don't you think that's a bit strong?

You've obviously got some very strong opinions on this subject, but they are just your own opinions, there is no need to be offensive to me personally.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:25 / 29.08.03
GreenMan: I actually went out of my way in the above post to make the point that I'm not calling you a rapist. However, what I am saying is that to propose to change someone's mind by use of an external force is an act of violence which is incompatible with love.

As I've asked before - what would you think of someone who used drugs or some kind of programme of psychological treament to achieve the same result? What about hypnosis or a Love-Inducing Zapp Gun? At best, you're turning yourself into a comedy villain from a pulp horror movie. At worst, you're going somewhere much darker and much more real - moving people around like furniture to suit yourself.

Your first thought was to 'do a love spell on her'. At the same time, you said you didn't want to do her any harm. The two are mutually exclusive. If you take her free will and influence her mind or her fate without her consent, you are harming her.

Or shall I make you listen to me and believe what I say? No? It's for your own good. You'd be happier in the long run. Still no?
 
 
Seth
16:40 / 29.08.03
GreenMann: I was the poster who mentioned the terms rapist and stalker. Anyone who's read the thread will see that I did not accuse you or anyone else of anything. I listed three different ways in which the magic could be attempted, along with how one would be viewed if people were aware that one had used magic in that way.

And no, they're not too strong a means of describing those actions. If one obsessively manipulates circumstances so that one can be around the object of one's affections without their consent, it's called stalking. Rape is having sex with someone against their will, so coercing someone into an exclusive relationship through magic can be fairly accurately described as a form of rape.

This isn't rocket science. This is common sense. It's how not to treat people you love and respect.

As a matter of interest, are you going to proceed with the working? If so, how?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:01 / 30.08.03
Okay, I'd like to veer off topic for a moment and appeal to all concerned for calm. GreenMann, nobody wants to you to feel like you're being accused of something. We're just addressing possible ethical problems with the spell as outlined in your initial post. If some of us are using strong, emotive language, it's only because we feel very passionately about the issue of ethics in magick.
 
 
Bastard Shit Man
15:06 / 30.08.03
If Free Will is real, then it’s not clear to me that a love spell would necessarily restrict the free will of its target.

For my part, I can never remember choosing to fancy someone, or to love someone – it’s always seemed to have happened outside my conscious control. What I *can* choose is whether I pursue or continue a relationship with the person I fancy/ love.

Phrases like “uncontrollable lust” or “helplessly in love” seem to me to be poetic exaggeration, if we have free will; I can imagine a love spell “making” someone fancy another, and that someone still retaining their autonomy.

Also: there are quite a few ways of thinking of magic, and many do not imply that magic involves “cheating” or treating people as pieces of furniture. For example: the paradigm that sorcery consists of jumping into the universe next door, where the situation in question is as one desires it to be. In this paradigm, when Bertie casts a love spell on Celia, he “jumps” into a parallel universe, where Celia has (freely?) fallen in love with Bertie.

…I once worked with a woman who had travelled half-way across the world to confront and angrily reproach her fiancé because he had written to her, in a letter, that she had “cast a spell” over him. To this woman, coming from a particular cultural background, she had just been accused of an unforgivable act of witchcraft. She hadn’t considered that her fiancé might well be coming from a different point-of-view, where it was uncontroversial -- or even a compliment -- to tell her that she had “cast a spell” over him.
 
 
Seth
13:34 / 31.08.03
I have many memories of choosing to love someone. There are plenty of people who rub me up the wrong way, or people who I just can't see eye-to-eye with. I treat them with respect and generosity when I can (which isn't always - sometimes I feel like I don't have the internal resources to even speak to them). Love is useless if it's just warm feelings and moist genitals - it has to be backed up with actions.

Re: the Earth 2/Bizarro World/What If? school of magical thought. It's a particularly self-centred world-view, isn't it? The idea that if something around you isn't to your liking it can be changed, and you can tell yourself that it's how it was meant to be because you've entered an alternate reality. I can imagine a practitioner using that to let himself off the hook in all kinds of situations.

In order for that last illustration to be even slightly relevant you have to be able to describe an example of a culture in which casting a love spell on someone is a socially acceptable thing to do, and allow for that example to be thoroughly critiqued instead of sitting back and saying "tomayto/tomahto." To be honest, why even bother with a love spell? You could always settle for clubbing her over the head and dragging her by the hair back to your cave. It's fun to play with language, ways of percieving reality and relativism... but it can be extremely self-centred.

Now, does anyone have any objection to me casting that justice spell I mentioned a few posts back? Now that I know that I can retreat into a parallel universe where the results can be described as the workings of karma I feel a lot better about it. While I'm at it, I quite fancy making the culprits impotent...
 
 
Bastard Shit Man
22:14 / 31.08.03
“What do we talk about when we talk about love?"

For me, examining how language is used and how different people perceive reality isn’t a way of evading the consequences of my actions, or just a fun parlour game. It’s a way of *extending* my consciousness of reality (including the consequences of my actions) and a way of increasing my understanding of other people. It plays an important part in my attempts to act ethically, my attempts to treat others right.

As an example of this: when I used the word “love” in my post, I meant to refer only to the feelings of affection and sexual attraction that we call by that name. But now I know that when you hear the word “love”, the concept that you think of involves not only feelings of affection or sexual attraction but also actions that are informed by those feelings.

...Bertie casts a love spell. His statement of intent: “that Celia should fancy me”. In other words, he desires to influence the feelings of Celia.

Bertie mentions to Charlie (a friend and work-mate) that he’s after casting a love spell. Charlie thinks “Bertie has attempted to determine Celia’s actions.” He perceives this as an attempt to restrict Celia’s free will, and gets (understandably) cross.

Charlie scolds Bertie, and compares him to a Neanderthal rapist, among other things. Bertie feels hurt and angry, and becomes defensive. Charlie and Bertie’s friendship is severely damaged; their work relationship comes under strain.

…I believe that a concern with understanding where other people are coming from is vital to relating to others intelligently and ethically.

The story about my former colleague and her fiancé was intended as an illustration of that point, not as an argument that “In some cultures, love spells are considered—with justification—socially acceptable.” In the anecdote, a single phrase was being used by two different people to refer to two different things, resulting in confusion, anger, and undeserved moral denouncement. When my colleague heard “you’ve cast a spell over me” she thought of witchcraft; her fiancé (I imagine) had intended a “mundane” interpretation of the phrase. But even putting aside “mundane” meanings, people mean many different things when they use words such as “witchcraft”, “magic”, “spell”, etc. What do we talk about when we talk about magic?

For me, the analogy between love spells and rape drugs, hypothetical ray guns, or caveman violence does not hold, for at least two reasons.

1. The way I understand it, the distinction between the magical way of perceiving and acting in the world, and—say—the scientific way of perceiving and acting in the world, is that the scientific model considers things in terms of linear cause-and-effect, while the magical model considers things in terms of all-over-at-once pattern and synchronicity. Thinking of a love spell in terms of a chemical or mechanical soporific is missing the point, from my perspective. (I should note that “my perspective” here is influenced, to say the least, by Ramsey Dukes’s account of magic in his book SSOTBME.) A sigil or talisman “goes with” the desired material end-result, rather than causing or “forcing” it. Given this definition of magic, anything that could be understood in terms of crudely “forcing” is not magic.

Bertie sigilizes “Celia having wonderful anal sex with me regularly”. Here, obviously, he’s not just trying to influence Celia’s feelings for him; he’s trying to influence her actions. So is this unethical?

To edge towards a “cause-and-effect” account of magic, one way sorcery might work is by invisibly inducing a set of circumstances that are conducive to the sigilized objective coming about. In the weeks after he performed the ritual, Bertie finds himself relaxed, energised, charming. The couple of times he meets Celia, he doesn’t get into an argument with her—he finds that he’s being more sensitive and aware of her needs and feelings. Meanwhile, a number of little incidents have been reminding Celia of the good times she had with Bertie before their "temporary separation": a business meeting in a hotel brings back a happy weekend she spent with Bertie in the same hotel last year; “Unchained Melody”, their song, seems to be playing on the car radio all the time; a big spider she finds in her bath reminds her of Bertie’s comical arachnophobia, and the many times she had to comfort and calm him when he woke up in the middle of the night, screaming “Sticky cobwebs! The eyes! Oh God!” Celia had had her eye on a young man, a new employee, for the past few weeks, but after a bizarre near-accident, in which a taxi she was sharing with this young man was struck by a BMW that came out of nowhere, she had an opportunity to glimpse a nasty side of the fellow’s personality: though no one was hurt, and little damage was caused to the cars, the young man let loose a number of foul racial slurs at the driver of the BMW—a black Nigerian—and the racist diatribe continued all the while the taxi drove back to their office. Celia was glad she’d had a chance to see this side of the new employee before she’d become involved with him…

…You get the idea. In the end, Celia freely chooses to invite Bertie back to her bed.

By my standards, while Bertie may be preoccupied with sex, he has done nothing that deserves being struck with impotence, loneliness, or even a mild scolding.


2. As you’ve probably gathered, my ethical sensibility is primarily concerned with consequences. I recoil at the implication that a magican who casts a love spell is similar to man who uses a rape drug, because the “mundane”-world consequences are so very different.

I’ve never cast a love spell on someone, and have no intention of doing so in the foreseeable future, and I may well be generalising my own taste to that of other people, but I imagine that when someone casts a love spell their intended result is neither a semi-conscious “object” nor, for that matter, a zombified robot that’s screaming “No!” somewhere deep inside.

I feel a little embarrassed at playing the “personal experience” card, but: I have had to deal with a “stalker” type situation, and it was—in the end, when my “admirer” was in my flat and refusing to leave—upsetting and scary. I may also have been the target of a “love spell” of some kind, I think, if I’m not fooling myself out of vanity or paranoia. The two experiences were nothing like each other, for me.

I definitely do not wish to suggest that all that falls under the name “love spell” is harmless and ethical. But I do suggest that when we’re talking about stuff that cannot be seen, heard, or felt – possible crimes that involve invisible weapons (magic) – invisible property (my free will) – an invisible world that many people allege does not even exist – given all of this, when we’re attempting to judge whether we’re acting ethically, let’s look at what actually results from our actions. And by all means, let’s look as closely as we can, doing our best to make sure we’re not evading the consequences of our actions—or our words.

Shit, I’m starting to sound like Jerry Springer. My apologies.

Over to you.
 
 
Bastard Shit Man
22:16 / 31.08.03
P.S.

The parallel-worlds magical paradigm is very self-centred, I agree with you. But, nevertheless, it’s not clear to me that it allows the practitioner to escape the consequences of his magic—or those of his non-magical actions, for that matter. The pain, restriction and unhappiness of others are no less real in a parallel reality.

Karma doesn't necessarily come into it, for a practitioner that uses such a paradigm, as I understand it.
 
 
A
00:59 / 01.09.03
If you magically transported yourself into Earth 2, where the girl is in love with you, then wouldn't that bump your Earth 2 counterpart back to this Earth, or something? That sounds like a mean thing to do to your alternate self.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:09 / 01.09.03
BSM:

The way I understand it, the distinction between the magical way of perceiving and acting in the world, and—say—the scientific way of perceiving and acting in the world, is that the scientific model considers things in terms of linear cause-and-effect, while the magical model considers things in terms of all-over-at-once pattern and synchronicity.

That magick acts on the world in a 'non-linear' way is utterly irrlevant to whether there is an ethical issue. In any case, there's a very simple 'cause-and-effect' linkage between working and consequence in the model you propose.

I recoil at the implication that a magican who casts a love spell is similar to man who uses a rape drug, because the “mundane”-world consequences are so very different.

Quite. The comparison is flawed. The drug rapist does not have access to the target's mind, so he is forced to satisfy himself with her body. The magickian, on the other hand, can violate both - so there may be no negative consequences for him.

It comes back to what I said earlier - suppose I was to change your mind about this by magick. The 'after' you would be grateful to me for showing you how wrong you were. The present 'you', however, does not consent to this operation and would be horrified to be thus transformed.

Consequentialism, incidentally, is very much a product of the scientific model you disown, and one which most philosophers regard as a rather shaky method of determining ethical action. (A consequentialist could theoretically be persuaded of the rightness of a small genocide provided it was kept secret and benefited the world as a whole.)

It's curious that you use a 'non-linear' model of the world for magick, and one of the most linear and rationalist/Enlgightenment models around for determining the ethical temper of your actions. Consequentialism is weak enough as it is, but you're positing a world in which there is a disjunct between an effective form of action and its consequences (there isn't, by any measure I can see, but that's what you've done). You put magick entirely outside the boundaries of the ethical system you espouse. A Consequentialism which was capable of operating in such a world - which was able to track the nuances of small changes culminating in a synergistic whole - would see little difference between the magickal and other methods of altering someone else's consciousness.

But I do suggest that when we’re talking about stuff that cannot be seen, heard, or felt – possible crimes that involve invisible weapons (magic) – invisible property (my free will) – an invisible world that many people allege does not even exist – given all of this, when we’re attempting to judge whether we’re acting ethically, let’s look at what actually results from our actions.

Ah. The "magick may not be real, so it's harmless" argument. Do you know, I even mentioned how wretched that position is a few posts up?

Let's look at some possibilities of 'what actually happens' with a love spell:

1. the target is enchanted.
2. the world is altered in such a way as to increase the likeliehood that the target will see the caster's good points.
3. the caster is moved to a parallel universe where the target-analogue is attracted to the caster-analogue.
4. the caster is altered in such a way as to make them more attractive to the target.

And then we can evaluate the outcomes: 1. is clearly a direct violation of the target. 4. is ethically clean, but possibly rather hazardous to the caster. 2. is what I would call 'cheating' - you turn the world into a stage-set for your goal. The target will ignore advances from people who, under normal circumstances, they might prefer to the caster. It's a relatively mild deception as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone's free will directly... however, it's what you might call environmentally unsound. Unless you put very stern limits on the spell, it's unclear just what might happen to deprive the target of opportunities to fall in love elsewhere - accidents, job-losses, trauma - and we don't know the consequences for other people of the changes the caster is making for the sake of 'love'. 3. appears to be the most benign, and yet what it really means is that the caster finds 'love' with an analogue ze has never previously met. The caster-analogue is sent elsewhere or destroyed; depending on exactly what happens to them and what they want, this may be a greater or a lesser crime.

If magick is real, magickal actions have to be looked at carefully. It's like driving a ten tonne truck down a crowded street.
 
 
Bear
08:14 / 01.09.03
Just out of interest (and I am in no way in favour of "love spells") would you say that creating a spell for someone to help them get a specific job is also morally wrong as your affecting the free will of the interviewer/s?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:12 / 01.09.03
Probably. I'd always go for the 'make me shiny' rather than the 'make you think I'm shiny'. I have raised this concern about job-getting spells in the past. It depends on a number of things.
 
 
C.Elseware
09:57 / 01.09.03
I've always taken the "be careful what you wish for approach". Take a few steps back... work out why you want the job. For money? to be useful? it would complete your image?

Once you know *what* you want, not the means to get it then you can do a working for that. It's a lot vaguer, but more likely IMO to work.

e.g. a good general working would to be A. Materially secure, B. Physically secure, C. Physically Healthy, D. Challenged, Stimulated and always Learning, E. Appreciated & Needed (as appropriate to your personality type), F. To have what you need to remain emotionally healthy, G. able to express myself creatively.

I think that sums up what I really want. Jobs, toys, friends, love, bandwidth, beer, money, cars, groupies etc. are just things which do/don't provide what you need out of life.

I would always recommend against a love spell on a specific person. How horrible if you always suspect that you manipulated them into it? Also imagine it works, but you change your mind. I'd suggest an intent something like "I will become a person who can and does have fulfilling relationships."

Also, remember that there is no pre determined soulmate, the "one" for you out there somewhere is a myth of mills and boon commercial romance. There are just good and bad compromises. The universe does not care to figs if you're happy or not. It's entirely your own problem.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:39 / 01.09.03
[I]t seems like a light, superficial relationship... I believe it isn't love

And who better to make that call than you, right?
 
 
Quantum
14:14 / 01.09.03
I don't want to harm them. I want to do a love spell on her while allowing their relationship run its natural course. Greenmann
Let's not bash Greenmann so hard, it's not the first time someone's thought a love spell was a good idea. I think he probably gets the message that love spells are ethically dodgy.
My tuppenny's worth goes both ways- firstly it's unwise to do a love spell, not just unethical. That which you do returns to you threefold, mess with somebody's emotional life and you may find yourself heartbroken.
My second penny is to consider tradition. Think of the old fashioned witch or cunning man, a majority of their business comes from clients wanting love or revenge, which they supplied. What are the consequences? Well, apart from the fear and persecution they engender, witches were almost usually single were they not?
 
  

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