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The Last Ish Of The Ultimates And Why It's Shit.

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Spaniel

21:37 / 11.08.03

Iron Man: "Look Captain America, they're shooting at us!"

Captain America: "It's alright Iron Man, I'll jump over them - legs akimbo!"

Spaniel

21:52 / 11.08.03

Ahah, Hulk, See how Millar has defeated you: the Wasp is in your BRAIN.

Doctor, you might have a degree in evil but you're not as clever as Millar. Yes, just when you think you've won you go and get ENLIGHTENED (and then the Midnighter shoves a truncheon up your arse, or something).

Look, the Authority are up shit creek without a paddle - each team member trapped in their own personal nightmare...

...and now they're not. How? They're just not.

Magneto, he's got the X-Men right where he wants them - broken, beaten and powerless. How can this unstoppable, omnipotent menace be thwarted? Can we imagine a way?

No!

And neither can Millar, so let's just punch him in the face.

Seth? Don't worry about him. You can just press the off switch.

etc...

The Natural Way

23:09 / 11.08.03

I liked the Doc finale, too. So very irreverent.

Having said that, though, Boboss and Celebrity are absolutely right.

The Falcon

08:55 / 12.08.03

Morrison/Moore fans turn on young Millar shockah?!

Haus of Mystery

09:52 / 12.08.03

How dare you accuse me of liking those hacks. I'm a Chuck Dixon bitch!

The Natural Way

10:12 / 12.08.03

Y'know what really fucks me off, though, Dunc? It's the fact that Millar is so delicate in his little, insulated Millarworld bubble that he seems incapable of taking on board ANY criticism. I think his comments re Barbelith have, so far, pretty much amounted to "Those guys don't like me..." Which is pretty pathetic and illinformed considering many people here do like him (myself included) and, well, isn't it worth his while to take the time to figure out why people might get pissed off with his stuff?

I think his teenage obsession with defending his right to enjoy queer/fart jokes is wearing a bit thin, too. I'm sure, if he has read any barbecriticism, it gets all confused in his head with stupid ideas about PC Nazis and the like..... Jesus, the *cool thing* about writing creator-owned/adult stuff is, according to Millar, the opportunity to write even NAUGHTIER stuff. Rrrgg! Grow up!

The Falcon

10:45 / 12.08.03

I've not really seen him do all that many 'queer/fart' jokes recently, skill pig. And, thus, no defence of them.

[Incidentally, is the new username reflective of being 'grown-up'?]

There is a thick streak of juvenilia that runs through Marky-boy's present work, yeah. I think it's partly to do with his desire, thus far, not to stray too far from the (very popular) 'writer of The Authority' image that has elevated him in the industry to, I dunno, Wizard's hot 10.

Are there any comic writers who take and answer public criticism? I can't think of an example.

The Natural Way

11:28 / 12.08.03

Millar on Big Dave:

It really was shockingly offensive, completely anti-gay, anti-foreign, anti-everyone and ranks as one of the best things either of us has done.

He's STILL really impressed by this. Honestly, doesn't it sound like he's equating being reactionary with REBELLION? Does to me, esp. when, later on in the Alan Doane interview, he's still waffling about how things like old wos'isface shooting up on the bog in Marshal Law is one of the best things he's ever seen in a comic, and banging on about the high point of his creator-owned/adult stuff is getting to put out books that aren't "restricted by limits on taste and decency". Doesn't this gut realise that you can tell a good story w/out sex, drugs and heads imploding? And how is this stuff so different from the superhero books he's already putting out? S'just amped up, innit?

Millars's really obsessed with baby stuff. Look, Mum, it smells.

The Falcon

12:07 / 12.08.03

I'd differentiate between Dave, the story and character, being 'anti-gay and anti-foreign'. The story's a pisstake of tabloid sensibilities, and still works. I love Big Dave, the story.

I wish he'd been about recently.

It doesn't always have to be this way (the post-Ennis style, for want of a better description) for Millar, but it's the seam he's choosing to mine at present. And, as I say, the evidence is that it's successful. I'd like some diversity soon, and some of the creator-owned stuff looks like it may fulfil that.

Well, I'm pinning my bets on The Unfunnies, surprisingly, 'cos it seems at least partially metacritically conscious of Millar's transition from Superman Adventures/JLA: Paradise Lost writer to writer of the current grotesques (not necessarily a pejorative, but Moore did better ones.)

Forgot about that interview, ta. Will read shortly.

The Natural Way

12:26 / 12.08.03

I'd differentiate between Dave, the story and character, being 'anti-gay and anti-foreign'. The story's a pisstake of tabloid sensibilities, and still works. I love Big Dave, the story.
Obviously I understand that, but I DO get the impression from Millar, that h's just really into juvenile shit. Every column/interview I read by/with him, he just underlines this even more. I'm not looking to cuss the man - I'm not big on the hatred tip - but you really don't have to look too hard for quotes from Millar that read somewhere along the lines of "It was rude! IT WAS COOL!"

I need to see some evidence that he's interested in writing other shit reeeeeal soon, 'cause, quite frankly, the man's starting to bore me.

The Falcon

12:34 / 12.08.03

he's really into juvenile shit

I don't doubt he is. I am a bit, too; don't think it's really a character-failing. One person's juvenile is another's irreverent...

And he does write superheroes.

The Falcon

12:43 / 12.08.03

I do find his apparent admiration of Bill Jemas somewhat disconcerting though.

The Natural Way

13:06 / 12.08.03

I like that stuff, too, don't get me wrong, but it's not my measure of goodness - it's not all I'd write. Millar, in that interview, actually describes the shooting up scene as one of the best openers in comics.

No. It's. Not.

The Falcon

13:19 / 12.08.03

Not read that one, but I have thrilled in a specially queasy way to Mills' perverse 'superheroes' on more than one occasion.

He could be exaggerating; he does that quite a lot.

The Natural Way

13:50 / 12.08.03

I think he's just giving an example of something he really likes.

Dunc, I'm not sure there's really anything to debate here. Isn't it just painfully obvious that Millar is *especially* interested in this stuff. I don't think it's asking too much for him to grow up just a little bit. I really think his work would IMPROVE.

The Natural Way

13:50 / 12.08.03

I think he's just giving an example of something he really likes.

Dunc, I'm not sure there's really anything to debate here. Isn't it just painfully obvious that Millar is *especially* interested in this stuff. I don't think it's asking too much for his tastes to evolve just a little bit. I really think his work would IMPROVE.

The Falcon

14:09 / 12.08.03

I'm just discussing, Pig.

I agree largely with you; it may simply be that his demographic is a wee bit younger/dafter than you or I, or any of the other critics here. We can all declare his 'company-wide crossover', which is still largely superheroes, last chance saloon if you want. I'm all for it.

Is his Swamp Thing as good as its' been touted, anyone who knows? I've read the co-write issues and they were very nice indeed.

The Natural Way

15:13 / 12.08.03

Yeah, it was pretty good, but like a whole lot of his work it felt sort of.....hollow. I think, with Mark, it's all image, really. Glossy veneers and WALLOP! POW! jokes and concepts. I actually think he's still very much in the process of finding his voice. He needs to write something more personal.

But I'm sure his bank balance wouldn't agree with me.

Haus of Mystery

21:16 / 12.08.03

I agree. Millar's work, whilst often being an enjoyable read often feels devoid of that spark of originality that makes a really great read. His earliest stuff back in 2000ad was like that. Sound and fury. Swamp Thing had some good ideas, and he certainly lifted that book out of it's hippy quagmire, but Piggun is right. It was essentailly a hollow shock-fest. I personally have no qualms with a writer doing B-movie comics but The Ultmates looked like it might be heading somewhere new and ace, but it already feels tired. I dunno, I'm not going to totally right him off, but it's getting harder to justify shelling out for his work.

Oh, and Ultimate X-Men was pigshite from start to end.

finger n' thump

23:08 / 12.08.03

miller will go the way of ellis.
they are so very similar.
both are so fond of moore.
that's one similarity.
there are others.
finders keepers.
industry wide roll outs?
didn't elliscunt do that or try to?
didn't he have an 'ellisworld'? too (I'm thinking this is the new and correct syntax for placing too at the end of a question. Do you like it? too)
Eliis: Millar: they're both 'okay' (okay blah is better than blah - who cares for now? they are NOT Alan Moore repeat, NOT Alan Moore, even though that was their dream - do you see?)
so stay on top while the fuck you can, using the skills you can and if you can't change then don't (coz you can't) -but the audience will in time and then you're gone. (keats and yates are on your side, while............Wilde is on
mine.
ta

Krug

05:08 / 13.08.03

Grant's no Alan Moore either.

The only difference is that Grant's the only one who refuses to live under Moore's influence or shadow.

finger n' thump

08:59 / 13.08.03

that's right.
him, gaiman and miligan have succeeded in sorting out their tans.
t'others will remain white in the shadow of alan for years to come.

Haus of Mystery

10:47 / 13.08.03

Yes, Milligan's ace isn't he? I read X-Statix alongside NXM and the 'Ultimates' and it was by far and away the freshest read of the three. Gaiman can fuck off though by and large for the unforgivable tripe of Sandmoan.

Krug

16:30 / 13.08.03

Yes well Grant's the only one whose work can challenge Moore's.

Krug

16:31 / 13.08.03

I only read all of X-force and never touched X-Statix but I'll take Milligan over Gaiman any day of the week. Gaiman isn't even in the league of Warren Ellis.

The Natural Way

20:21 / 13.08.03

It's not about CHALLENGING MOORE (a great name for a new wrestling show), but about the writer possessing his/her own distinct voice, and there are fucking millions of creators out there who've achieved this; Milligan not least among them.

Krug

21:49 / 13.08.03

Distinctive voice is one thing but I'm talking about the level of quality as well. As many good creators they are how many works can compete with V for Vendetta or From Hell?
You've got to give it to the King.

finger n' thump

22:56 / 13.08.03

I love this Challenging Moore shtik.

Who shall challenge Moore?

pause....

I shall challenge Moore!

gasp!

Daniel Clowes can challenge Moore any day of the week.

Lapham gives him just as good a going over as Morrison.

Basically, I'm not sure it's fair to compare Moore with loads of comic writers because, well, what's going in their books/work generally is VERY, VERY different. Their approach to the *art*, to story, is different. Their techniques vary wildly, not to mention their subject matter.

Is it really fair to compare Frank or Gon to V?

Maus to Watchmen?

finger n' thump

10:26 / 14.08.03

art comparisons never work.
either do top ten charts.
so, robbie williams is the greatest singer of all time?
and lord of the rings is the bestest book ever written?
the only thing we can agree on when it comes to art, is that the
(b)hitch wasn't so good this time and the iron man shield excuse was lame.
the ultimates was going somewhere different with those first 5 or 6 issues. Now it's not and it won't.

Haus of Mystery

11:52 / 14.08.03

Did you not feel when the comic started it felt like Millar had been waiting his whole life to write it, like he had been mentally planning that first arc the same way Tarantino had been planning every shot of Reservoir Dogs. It had an infectious sense of wonder that was passed to the reader (well this reader anyway). Now it just seems he's got bored of it. The same thing kinda happened with the JLA World War 3 story, but at least we had 30 odd superb stories before that.
And the whole Alien conspiracy thing was done with much more verve and irreverence in the Skrull Kill Krew, which if anyone hasn't read, is well worth your sheckles.

finger n' thump

12:15 / 14.08.03

yes, celebrity, concerning the 'waiting al his life' chat. I agree with you. After number 5 or 6 he became top of the poppermost as a result of those early issues and he quite obviously does not have the skillset to put that fame to good creative use.

Haus of Mystery

16:53 / 14.08.03

'zackly. We're much better than him aren't we?

finger n' thump

21:41 / 14.08.03

mmm

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