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The Disease that is Popular Magic.

 
  

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rakehell
04:27 / 07.08.03
If someone had told me 10 years ago that I would participate in a conversation about there being to many magick books on the shelves I would have said they were mad, maaad!

I love the idea of for sigils for teens, "here's an excuse to wank more"

Illmatic: Do you consider what you do magick, or do you just do, umm you know, stuff? What do you call yourself?

When I asked about people considering themselves chaos magickians I meant that I could see this sort of attitude from a strict Qaballah follower or a Golden Dawn ritual mage, but for anyone else - my opinion and all that - it doesn't make sense.

Perhaps to turn this around, could I ask what people here would give a youngster who asked for some books on magick?

I don't really like Promethea partly because I've never resonated with the tarot, but also because it seems very ye olde to me. I would have thought that something being written about magick now would include more about the non-western traditions. Though the series hasn't finished yet, so there's still time.
 
 
Quantum
08:29 / 07.08.03
The Everything Kids Witches and Wizards Book reviewed;
it is fun to make the activities but when it got to the potions and spells it was pretty obvios they knew they wouldnt work.like the one to bring a friend back,u make strawberry cookies for ur friend and say a spell.but at the end it spys to talk to them and tell them ur problem.so basically make something nice for them then tell them whats bothering u.so i dont recomend it for children who can tell the difference,like myself.
From the mouths of babes...
I reckon that kid will grow up to be a magician, ze's got the right attitude if you ask me. Doesn't seem like it caused any undue distress yet..
 
 
illmatic
08:54 / 07.08.03
Rakehell: I should probably start a thread on this but I may as well rot this one (sorry!). The various personal practices I'm doing are magickal - they certainly started off in explictly magickal traditions but they're more focused on awareness and exploring myself and what I do, than they are on changing the external world. That might change though, my lack of interest in sorcery over the last few years is probably a weak point, but anyway before I veer even more off topic...

Hermes, I'm not trying to slag off other people's labels for themselves without thought. But I do think that things like this are worth questioning. I just think there's a certain degree of glamour attached to the idea of being a "magickan" - we all want to be the kind of Dr Faustus figure controlling the universe. I wonder if this is it a shield we put up to protect ourselves, to make us feel special? Does it get in the way of self-honesty, professing vulnerableity and so on?

I've met quite a lot of occultists over the years identified heavily with being a magician and sometimes it seemed like another way of avoiding things they didn’t like about themselves or were uncomfortable with. The outsider status of the magician just seems to provide a rationale for our alienation, or a cover for feelings of inadequacy, depression or whatever.

I have a great deal of faith in say, psychotherapy, as a route to change - but it doesn’t carry the same individualistic glamour as being a magickan. On thinking about it, perhaps that’s because with therapy you have someone to challenge you and point out your blind spots – this might relate to the idea of teachers mentioned earlier in this thread. Even with the focus on chaos magick on this board people seem to talk more about sigils and servitors than the really difficult parts of it – belief shifting for instance – “ego magic” you might call it.

Any thoughts? If people want to respond to this at length we can take it to another thread.
 
 
Quantum
09:17 / 07.08.03
Let's do that, I'm interested in what people think of the Magician persona, psychologically speaking.
 
 
illmatic
09:36 / 07.08.03
Okay, I'll do it now. Any comments on this issue to the new thread, ta. I'll call it "Being a magician - limitation or otherwise" unless I think of something more snappy in the next thirty seconds.
 
 
Quantum
10:39 / 07.08.03
Check this out, magicians earning an honest buck or charlatans fleecing idiots?
 
 
illmatic
13:01 / 07.08.03
That's fucking bizarre - but on second thoughts, it's nothing new, is it? I like the way they've got little logos for each spell. They've got mney back guarantee as well - says they've been going since 1970.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
13:49 / 07.08.03
Oh, I ment to say earlier that I do consider myself a chaos magician, for a number of reasons. But I think those reasons are better suited for our online group therapy chat. On the subject of teaching magic, has anyone else considered a school? Actually teaching people to be magicians in a class room?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:17 / 07.08.03
I don't think that would work. Too many people use magic as an escape from that kind of mundanity but it depends what discipline you're talking about as well. Some stuff has a lot of theory behind it, other things work best in practice- I suppose the rituals would be like some kind of crazy heretic drama workshop.

Actually I quite like that image.
 
 
Quantum
07:46 / 08.08.03
It has been mooted, in fact I have a list I found somewhere of magic 101, the subjects that a magickal college would teach (e.g. herbalism, astrology, qabbalah) to give a basic grounding in all areas. Then progressing to more specialist study as desired (Summoning Godforms 201 )
I don't think a Hogwarts is a good idea (too young), but a university of magick is a great idea, or even just a degree in it. Hell, I'd go back to college tomorrow, hang the cost. ("Today, class, we will study how to banish your student overdraft")
Imagine the parties...
 
 
illmatic
08:01 / 08.08.03
Well, there are a lot of groups out there ofering correspondence courses adn so on. Nearest thing to a school would probably be the weekend workshops or annual conferences some groups put on.
 
 
C.Elseware
09:47 / 08.08.03
correspondence courses - and here in lies the problem. How many esoteric textbooks have you read, got to the exercises at the end of the chapter, assumed that they didn't apply to you, kept reading, got to the end and then been annoyed you got nothing out of it. Robert Anton Wilson's repeated refrain - "the map is not the territory, the menu is not the meal".

Everybody these days seems to be pretty much self-taught from books/websites. A few exceptions exist, usually where there is a family history.

The only time any people I knew did anything occulty in a formal group it ended badly. IMO they gave responsibilities and trust to someone who was not really able to deal with it.

I think I've learned enough now that I could start helping people along, give advice and suggestions. I only really start to understand something when I try and teach it to someone else. Problem is, it's risky. It involves taking on a degree of 'spiritual' responsibility for others.

Maybe there should be a magickal exchange program - I'll teach you how to do one of my things if you help me find my spirit guide... Hmmm.
 
 
illmatic
10:42 / 08.08.03
I've been lucky I guess - all the people I'd class as teachers for me have been really great. I do know some people who've had very unpleasent experiences in groups though. Though all these relationships bar one weren't formal teaching relationships, they were just people I got to meet and became friends with. Perhaps that's the way to go. A bit of magickal socialising might lead help find someone who isn't a dickhead.
 
 
Quantum
10:54 / 08.08.03
"Maybe there should be a magickal exchange program - I'll teach you how to do one of my things if you help me find my spirit guide... Hmmm. " Elseware
Hell yes there should be. In a way this forum does a little of that, but really you need face to face teaching for it to be effective. The main problem with it is assessment- it's difficult to know how much someone knows, it's not like you can get a recognised qualification in magick (except maybe fame, I'd learn from Moore anyday).
That and the difficulties of arranging a meeting, and finding a person you get on with and respect etc. none of these are insoluble but they are obstacles.
 
 
gravitybitch
13:51 / 08.08.03
Online group learning can be useful, but it definitely has its limitations... We had great success for a couple of months here with a group working through Donald Michael Kraig's Modern Magick (about a year ago), but it seemed like everybody had attacks of life and faded out of the process. Face-to-face meetings would probably have helped, but I'm 8 or 9 timezones behind the majority of youse guys...
 
 
electric monk
14:53 / 08.08.03
Quantam! I hope you're reading Promethea. AM's basically come right out and said that each issue is a knowledge lecture wrapped in a fiction. It's well-written, eye-opening stuff.
 
 
—| x |—
13:45 / 09.08.03
Oh, I'm not really trying to seel kids short. Some are nice enough--I suppose I am saying more that there is much to preoccupied with as a teen without the need to be "casting spells." In general, of course. As an aside, it is, IMO, always good to have a part of ourselves feel like something or someone is being "sold short"--regardless of what we are contemplating there is, I would say, always something being short changed.

Teachers? Well, I sorta' had a sporadic teacher for a short period with whom I corresponded by mail. For several years now I have figured that our "guru" is all around us--it is not a matter of the student being ready for a specific teacher, but the student being ready to learn from what's at hand.

Magick of some sort in school would be cool. Elementary and juniour grades ought to be more focused on the v. basics though: memory/imaging, meditation/self(body-mind)-control, acute sense exploration (all five physical senses and then...), acute body knowlege, and etc.. Perhaps moving onto lucid dreaming/astral travel techniques, basic magic/kal exercises (banishing, energy intake/circulation/release, cleansing, and etc.).
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
15:14 / 09.08.03
halo, that's what I mean. Start teaching from the begining, and maybe we won't have people becomeing addicted to McDonalds magic.
If there were a school, I think it would have to be set up rather like the Xaiver Institute in New X-Men; the students pick what they want to learn, when they want to learn it rather then a standard western classroom set up.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
00:11 / 10.08.03
"I dun wanna learn nuthin' 'ere, ma. This MagicKKK School is bollocks! I wanna go un learn how ta make drugs at a Chemist School."

"Gimme alla yer toad's eyes or I'ma squash ya wiff me magic boulder."

"I have become one with my Lord Jecifus, Principal LiteBrite. I will feast on your soul for this detention."

"Oh hell. We thought you were a Magician School, like Harry Houdini. You know, raising our Chester up like a young David Copperfield."

No, you're right. It would be brilliant.
 
 
penitentvandal
13:08 / 10.08.03
Yet Wicca is a religion, you can't invent it as you go along. (Anna)

Except that, according to The Triumph of the Moon that's exactly what the early Wiccans did...

...and nothing wrong in that, of course.

I have to say I agree with the view that magick has a self-policing function. Most of the stuff that works and could do serious damage to others is difficult to learn and requires not just book-learnin' but a great deal of effort and belief; the kind of lazy spod who wants instant magick will be unable to get to grips with it. Of course it's conceivable that they might still hurt themselves, but fuck it - one more dead idiot means an extra seat free on the metro, as far as I'm concerned.

Personally I'd recommend early Terry Pratchett books to kids getting interested in magick: the best line about magic I've heard being Pratchett's description of the Rite of Ashkente, which is usually done with lots of crystals and mahogany and ceremonial magick by the heads of the Eight Colleges of Magic, 'but can be done by one person with two bits of wood and four cc of mouse blood if required.'
 
 
gravitybitch
18:13 / 10.08.03
Four cc of mouse blood? That'll get PETA going fershure - you'd need to outright kill at least three mice for that much blood!

Never got into Terry Pratchett - should I be sending them to my niece when she gets to be 12 or so?
 
 
Salamander
19:48 / 10.08.03
I always imagined a university type setting, but with small, maybe 10-15 people a class, with the instructor using the socratic methode to lecture, really you can achieve the one on one feel like this without it actually being one on one. I think the most entertaining thing about a Magick U would be the protesters outside.
 
 
Quantum
09:06 / 11.08.03
The protestors that are on fire, transmuting into frogs etc?
 
 
penitentvandal
10:56 / 11.08.03
Of course, if we model it on the X-Academy we are going to need a baldyheeded headmaster with psychic powers and a progressive approach to magic and education...

Can anyone suggest someone to fill that position? For the life of me I just can't think of anyone...
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
23:16 / 11.08.03
Umm... I'm thinking... Mark Waid? No wait, he's not bald or a magician....Gaiman? Still not bald.... Moore? wait, he's really really hariy... does anyone know if Bendis has psychic powers?
 
 
—| x |—
11:42 / 12.08.03
Oh my last post was so sub par: my apologies for the let down, relief, or otherwise—depending on perspective. So to get back on track, and back at the vein, trying to suck the poison as it stills ever more beating lives of vital light.

FUCK THE NEW XMEN and their MUTANT SCHOOL of PSYCHIC WEIRDOES.

This is a stench of the disease—the rot that lingers as the zombies gather greater (which isn’t to say that New X-Men might not be a fine comic to read: don’t read many comics these days myself), but that it is this sort of “school for the elite,” “superhero,” crap that makes practical magic/k for everyday people either an absurd idea because its pop conception has framed it for what it isn’t OR it promotes the idea prevalent in society that magic/k is a bunch of bullshit, and hence, perpetuates the continual disrespect of the hive, which thus requires even more discipline and will from those who do give magic/k it’s due respect.

And as for the idea that magic/k is self-policing, well, I never!—really…this is much like saying that the energy of the atom is self-policing—only able to be harnessed by the pure people of good intent with no chance that there could be irresponsible, abusive, or deadly misuse of its “power.” If we could really believe that magic/k possesses this omnipotent ability to keep people in line, work best for the good, weed out potential abusers of its power, and so on, well then, I know this really fab woman—you’ll love her—who, because she’s moving out East ya’ see, has the coolest bridge to the moon to sell…
 
 
The Natural Way
14:54 / 12.08.03
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The Natural Way
14:54 / 12.08.03
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The Natural Way
14:54 / 12.08.03
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The Natural Way
14:58 / 12.08.03
I'm not sure if yr NXM criticisms are on the money. At the heart of the book is the metaphor that humanity is slowly "dying out", only to be "replaced" by the mutants. It heralds a time when we are all evolved into something new and strange and different. When the *magic* becomes available to everyone. A very, very common theme in Morrison's work.
 
 
Salamander
15:38 / 12.08.03
I would imagine this school would be like any other university actually, with basic universal admission requirements, whether or not they matched other universities for requirements, I guess would be the choice of whoever formed this hypothetical school in the first place. Such a school would be elite because you have to be born a mutant to practice magick? No. Anyone can practice magick, they need only the desire and the determination. I can't see a school of magick lasting for long that had elitest requirements, it would be absurd.
 
 
—| x |—
06:23 / 14.08.03
I'm not sure if yr NXM criticisms are on the money.

Oh no? ‘Cause for all GM’s brilliance and (in the eyes of some) “deity” status, he’s not one to ever be wrong about something or make mistakes. I mean, Lord knows that, in the history of human stories, tales, and myths, no deities ever make mistakes.

I’ll have to take yer brief synopsis as accurately reflecting the themes of the book.

At the heart of the book is the metaphor that humanity is slowly "dying out", only to be "replaced" by the mutants.

To begin, sounds strikingly similar to PKD’s novel Our Friends from Frolix 8. Here, ole Phil treats us to a tale of the “Oldmen” vs. the “Newmen,” where the Oldmen are humanities last remnants, and the Newmen are the mutants and freaks which are replacing the dying out husk of humanity. Of course in PKD style, the Newmen have psionic powers, are super smart, extra-dexterous, and/or etc..

Now, the problem with such a motif is that it illustrates and in its way reinforces the myth that there is an “us” vs. “them” mentality which necessarily drives the world of humans. Again, a symptom of the sickness of popular magick. It’s not an “us vs. them” world in any sense except for our own human shortcomings. The world is a whole composed of a staggering complexity of relations—not conflict, relations.

Second, this promotes several sketchy and, IMO, counter-productive ideas.

1) That there is a linear time that takes precedent over a non-linear or holistic time.
2) That “evolution” is a sound and acceptable principle.
3) That there is a species of people not able to what another species of people does. Now, this is a touchy issue which isn’t so easily generalized: there are races of humans that appear to have advantages and disadvantages compared to others; however, it is arguable that this is not mere genetics, but also a matter of social milieu conditioning. I tend to think that it is likely that human beings are much more “equal” wrt abilities, functions, and etc. then is typically recognized simply because there is such an immersion within a culturally located POV. Again, ties into the disease that is pop magick because is promoting and maintaining the idea that certain humans based on a specific criteria are in a necessarily “evolved,” and thus, unattainable state wrt other humans.

It heralds a time when we are all evolved into something new and strange and different.

Ah yes, the search for the holy grail that lies in either direction in time, but always misses its mark: right here and right now. We can spend forever pining for the “golden age” of yesteryear or we can spend the same energy hoping for the “golden age” yet to come. All this is simple minded diversion from the importance of the moment—we find our Heaven and Hell here and now, after all.

When the *magic* becomes available to everyone.

It already is. Each of us is already a magician. It is not a matter of “availability,” but a matter of shrugging off our sleep and becoming willfully aware. Again, GM seems to be promoting useless ideas here in the name of pop magick, and thus, does both people and magic/k a disservice.

A very, very common theme in Morrison's work.

All the worse for Mr. Morrison and those who read him then…
 
 
The Natural Way
08:32 / 14.08.03
Oh no? ‘Cause for all GM’s brilliance and (in the eyes of some) “deity” status, he’s not one to ever be wrong about something or make mistakes. I mean, Lord knows that, in the history of human stories, tales, and myths, no deities ever make mistakes.
Eh? What?

Deities?

Y'know, this wasn't about Morrison-worship, I was simply bored, scrolled down a thread and disagreed with yr summation of what NXM was about and what the themes were. No need to go into one about "deities never making mistakes" and stuff....

The point is, Sinister, I know all that stuff. I know the magic's available now and that, yes, there's still a division between "humans" and "mutants" in Morrison's work, and I know some readers won't make the connection that "mutant" actually means "evolved human" or, more accurately, "our children". I know that stuff. But it doesn't take a genius to make these connections and I'm sure some of Morrison's younger readers are capable of making the....errr..leap.

Another thing: the moment of initiation in Morrison's work (esp. the Invisibles) is always portrayed as existing outside time. His magic is available everywhere and everywhen.

I don't buy this idea that NXM is somehow preventing the kids from getting the message. And mate, look, this is a silly debate - yr not in a position to take the comic to pieces, considering YOU DON'T ACTUALLY READ IT.

Jeez, setting you straight is not the same as burying my tongue in Morrison's anus.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:50 / 14.08.03
Sorry about the endless, bloody bold. I keep on fucking my posts at the mo'. I'm not sure what it is. Guess I must be tired or something. Rrrgg.
 
 
—| x |—
11:41 / 14.08.03
Considering most of my last post isn't about GM hero worship, I wouldn't fret too much. It was merely a biting way to open to the meat of the matter.

No, I don't read the comic--I am taking your word on its metaphor, which, as I've pointed out above, is a pointless and tired metaphor that perpetuates ignorance instead of absolving it.

Also "mutant" = "evolved human" is still a terrible way to think about it, and doesn't really do any justice to the alchemical transformation that is the magic/kal journey. It's not evolution, it's more akin to recovery.
 
  

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