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The Disease that is Popular Magic.

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
—| x |—
08:16 / 05.08.03
So I’m in Chapters the other day (a place I v. rarely visit) because I recently decided it was time to get a credit card and I have been enjoying the magic/k of this little pocket-sized plastic rectangle ever since. I’m looking mainly in the “Cultural Studies” and “Philosophy” sections—I ended up getting Michael Moore’s latest book Stupid White Men as a gift for my partner and bought a little book called Zeno and the tortoise, which is a summary and introduction to several main ideas of “important” philosophers (“Nietzsche’s Hammer,” “Popper’s Dolls,” “Bacon’s Chicken’s,” are the names of a couple of the chapters)—but I also happened to glance through the “New Age,” “Spirituality,” “UFO/Strange Phenomena” sections.

Back when I first began to seriously read, study, and investigate magic/k, aside from the odd “specialty” shop (which wasn’t located in my humble home town, but only in larger “urban centers”), there was really not a v. large popular selection of books to be had at most bookstores. This was in about 1991. Back then (when I used to dog sled fifty miles to a one room school with a wood burning furnace…), any bookstore that actually carried any of this “New Age” phooey would typically have about two shelves tucked in somewhere near the children’s section of the store that held a scant few books about the Occult, &/v Witchcraft &/v, UFOs, &/v etc.. And even then, the pickings of worthwhile books were slim. Mostly hours spent combing used bookstores, esp. when visiting relatively close “urban centers” (for me, Calgary, Edmonton, and Victoria).

And there wasn’t any sprawling Internet to spread information without hesitation, without supervision, without qualification; that is, there was no easily accessible unadulterated flow of magic/kal material. I mean, we couldn’t merely have access to the likes of TOPY’s publications, et. al., at the push of a button. No, it was a time when either we had to be “hip” and “kewl” enough (in someone’s eyes)—i.e., in the scene—or join the team (say, by jerking off, cutting one’s self, and spitting once every month for 23 months)—but both ways required that we actually had to put some sincerity into our pursuits by actually writing letters to, &/v meeting with an actual person or group of people; that is, we actually had to put work into the way we relate to people and the world (of course, here is one of the great things about this forum—we can relate to one and other, if we choose, through a text (and seemingly more lately) image based medium. But nowadays it seems that the importance of this relational aspect of magic/k is fading fast—we can merely jerk off to our own signs and insignias, and damn the horse & shoot the god damn messenger these days, ‘cause “I is All” is chanted with all the precision and impartiality of well oiled machinery: works wherever you can crank it off, right?

But, to return to the bookstore and make a not so neat segue, we’ll simply call those last two paragraphs a bit of a “tangenital” line, and now back to that moment in time when I was in Chapters and there were (and still are, I would presume) several different sections representing the world of the weird, the wonderful, and the “paranormal” (a catchall term for which I’ve little use as nothing that can possibly manifest anywhere is anything beyond “normal” given that it must occur in “reality” as the absence of any “reality” is VOID; i.e., there is nothing “para” about it). After I take a quick and mostly disdainful glance at what passes for books on “magic,” on the clearly marked official shelves for such books, I take a look at the shelves dedicated to Wicca and suddenly I feel the urge to vomit much like the little girl does in The Exorcist.

There before me is a book (whose title was so ghastly I can only relate a paraphrase of its name in order not to wake The Beast that slumbers, held at bay, on my watch): The Complete Book of Shadows for the Modern Teenage Witch.

Fuck.

This is sickness my friends (and my enemies, acquaintances, and people not yet met). I mean, this is rather like writing a book called “The Complete Book of Surgery for Teens.” No one in their right mind would give any child the actual tools and guidance to perform surgery from hir own home! Certainly, one in several thousand (give or take—mostly give I’d imagine: likely more like one in a million!) would successfully operate on their younger siblings or school crushes/enemies/etc. and grow up to be a talented, gifted, and sought after surgeon, but most would simply do much harm to their “patients” and likely do themselves quite a bit of psychological trauma at the same time.

So, why the fuck did anyone decide to write, publish, or stock, this kind of garbage? It’s not merely watered down, flakey-bakey, pap for the masses, but its also giving, in this instance, hormonally charged, unbalanced, and largely hesitant in issues of self-identity humans access to something they’ve no Goddamn right to. It is one thing for children to put on costumes, use props and such while imaging being a surgeon, but it is quite another to give them what for all accounts is instruction in surgery while at the same time telling them to go ahead and try it out for real.

Here is one of the main causes of this sickness: it is a lack of actual respect, understanding, and seriousness for magic/k. We take, say, being a doctor seriously—we train for many years under strict scrutiny and experienced hand; however, we (and here I use “we” not to mean me personally & perhaps not even you personally either) don’t seem to take this same stance towards things magic/k, occult, or otherwise “paranormal.” Like it’s all a big fuckin’ joke. If I need a laugh that comes from the soul, that comes from the deep dark pits of my core, then all I need to do is spend fifteen minutes of my time looking at the vast pile of shit that stocks these once sparse shelves of my local bookstore. If I didn’t laugh in the epitome of dark humour, I would simply have to fall to my knees and weep.

Anyway, I for one am simply disgusted at the misappropriation of things “magic/k” by the mass culture and the resultant plethora of shit products for ever climbing numbers of morons and fuckbakes to consume, to swallow, to eat whole and unprepared—a poison for the collective unconscious, a sad spiral to Self suicide, a projection of the human short comings en masse. I’m fucking tired of the rise of the mythology and magic in popular television, movies, et. al.. It is mostly by and large the phantasms and illusions of a sad, sick, and immature race—greedy, self-absorbed, and generally the creators and maintainers of sufferings of all sorts. Magic as the quick fix. Magic as the Hollywood ending. Magic for the masses (and here I will not accept any sad excuse for a plea to defend these people; i.e., I will not apologize for my use of this pathetic generalizing term as there is nothing other than such a generic phrase to describe the generic situation that we have here—bland homogenized gruel for the slaves in stocks and bonds). It is misuse and abuse of magic/k: it is a reflection of our own stupidity, immaturity, and lack of understanding that is present to us in this new interest in the New Age, this rising tide of sucker-punches for the serious, of sad shit sacks of sugar for stupid stock, flock, and cloaked in herd security mammals.

But what the fuck, right? I mean, I don’t have to buy this crap, and I can tell others not to buy it either. I can exercise my discretion and hope that others can come to do the same. I can see a brighter tomorrow so long as we can make it through the long dark night of our collective soul.

Make a candle from your flesh.

Burn bright.

Amen.
 
 
Quantum
08:44 / 05.08.03
Second that. But you can take the word 'magic' out of that rant and replace it with anything else and I'd still agree. The dumbing down and popularisation of previously sacrosant and secret things is one of the curses of postmodern culture. Soon you'll be able to buy do-it-yourself Navajo scarrification kits, and there'll be teen magazines on everything ('I tried the Abramelin and lost two stone!' 'How the Ibogaine ritual can get you the perfect man')
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:19 / 05.08.03
Well I'm all for it, and not entirely just to be annoying either.

I don't have a problem with commercialisation of magic - it's part of a tradition that's a lot older than 'Silver Wolfninja' and other such authors. Even if the material in these books is watered down trite, if someone can get it to work for them and it improves their lives - then good luck to them. Even if it's the most fluffy white light sub-wiccan candle magic, if it works for somebody, then it is as valid and as powerful as the most high flown and worthy ceremonial magick - if not more so.

If, on the other hand, it fails to work for someone - then there's nothing lost apart from the $15.99 spent on the book. Perhaps the budding sorcerer will purchase more carefully and informedly afterwards.

Besides which, nobody ever learned magic out of a book anyway. I had all manner of dubious tacky occult books on my shelf when I was growing up - still do in fact. If a single line in one of those books acts as a thread that leads you further on down your own individual road of magical practice - then it's more than worth the paper it's printed on. Magic is big enough and old enough to look after itself. If you're going to be a magician, you'll probably become one regardless of whether you buy 'Jackie Chan's ultimate teen book of zombie making' or Crowley's 'Magick'. If you're not going to be a magician, then you'll probably skim read it for a laugh and forget all about it. There are no masses, there's just us and people like us.

its also giving, in this instance, hormonally charged, unbalanced, and largely hesitant in issues of self-identity humans access to something they’ve no Goddamn right to.

Why, exactly, have these largely speculative teenagers got no right to make use of magical processes to benefit their own lives if they feel inclined to? Because you don't approve of the level of scholarship in the books they are using? Because you feel they haven't yet paid their dues in some way by having easier access to this material than you or I did?
 
 
Secularius
09:39 / 05.08.03
I aggree. That Ravenwolf really pisses me off too. But isn't this whole magick thing a teenage thingy nowadays? How many of you started looking at these things in your 20s? Magick is luring to outsiders, depressed and lonely teens (especially girls now with this Charmed and Buffy craze) who can't get the attention of the popular ones, and therefore claim to be all special and exclusive by declaring themselves witches/mages. Of course they are insulted when they find out that they're just another market group to be exploited. Those poor misunderstood teenagers would most probably listen to this "music" and buy these DVDs according to Amazon. It's a sad sad world.
 
 
Quantum
09:57 / 05.08.03
Ravenwolf 'To ride a silver broomstick' ROFL! D'you think they advise smearing the broomstick with flying ointment and riding it naked? LOL!
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
10:06 / 05.08.03
This sounds suspiciously like the pissing-upon of pop music that some fatbeards tend to do. Seriously; the reek of holier-than-thou (ha!) here is pretty strong. I agree that Fiona Horne and her ilk are fuckwittery personified; but the bile's a little strong - and to be honest, you're sounding very "but I discovered it first! Nobody gets it but me!" - which I don't think is gonna help any teenage witches think any harder about moving away from Wicca For Dummies.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:24 / 05.08.03
Fiona Horne is abhorrent. I'm sorry but the woman is absolutely disgusting- she advises beginners to invoke Kali and in no way, shape or form would I condone that in a million years.

Sorry, slight vendetta against her.

Rothkoid I disagree with you when you say This sounds suspiciously like the pissing-upon of pop music that some fatbeards tend to do.

An awful lot of the books that are available, particularly wrt witchcraft, are absolute trash. They're all aimed at the Wiccan market, there's no information on what branch they're teaching and quite often it's completely made up. Yet Wicca is a religion, you can't invent it as you go along.

Ravenwolf and the Farrar's are about as good as it gets because they at least make it clear that they follow the Alexandrian Tradition. At the age of 13 I knew that those books were all shit... Spiral Dance was being plugged in the community at the time and while it's pretty good for a beginner I couldn't believe the toss pseudo-philosophy running through its pages. I ask myself again and again why they find it so impossible to release a practical guide for beginners so that they can follow the stricture rather than read about coven twat all the fucking time? We aren't all interested in the New Age, self help fanatic aspect of Witchcraft, some of us just want to get on with it and find decent, strong and practical material to read.

The problem is that lot's of people do get it. Lot's of people disapprove of the target audience because they don't fit it and lot's of people want it to sort itself out now.
 
 
Quantum
10:27 / 05.08.03
But *I* was into their early stuff before they got famous, magic's just a sellout whore now
Any teenage witches reading, sorry 'bout the bile. But be aware of the phallic symbolism of the broomstick, and don't smear flying ointment onto your nether regions before you're ready for it.

I am vehemently opposed to the pop culture dumbing down of complex and subtle things into brash consumerist pap, and that applies to magic as much as to psychology or spirituality or music. For me, pop magic is like pop psychology- misunderstood rubbish. It's superstition, not magic (superstition being the hollow mockery of magic with the meaning removed and only the actions remaining- going through the motions).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:34 / 05.08.03
Oh and feudal - its also giving, in this instance, hormonally charged, unbalanced, and largely hesitant in issues of self-identity humans access to something they’ve no Goddamn right to

Utter toss. I was hormonally charged, unbalanced and largely hesitant at the age of 12 when I started practising, not Wicca but witchcraft. Ten years later I'm still doing it and I've read piles of crap that I've hated and a few good books along the way. I've worked my way through the shamanistic elements of witchcraft, lone workings, I've taken part in and led group rituals, I've danced around the Beltane fires and played with trance and meditation techniques. I've invoked countless numbers of Gods and found a patron Goddess and the one thing that I've known for the entire ten years is that everyone has a right to this.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:54 / 05.08.03
It's superstition, not magic (superstition being the hollow mockery of magic with the meaning removed and only the actions remaining- going through the motions).

Even if it works?

I dunno, I have a funny relationship with superstition. In the course of my practices I sometimes access an incredibly 'superstitious' obsessive compulsive disorder type mindset - where I'm conscious that my practices are taking me to the very edges of what I generally consider to be 'sanity' and to all intents and purposes I seem to be thinking and acting like a crazy person. To a large extent, this is where I think it's at - when I'm walking between worlds (in this case the worlds of 'sane' and 'mad as a bag of spiders') I have access to areas that I otherwise wouldn't get anywhere near. I think that the mechanism of superstition is very closely linked to what makes magic work. This kind of crazed belief in something that everyday logic would dismiss is some very powerful gear.

I think that the only real way to judge the value of 'a teenage witches book of shadows' or any other title is whether the material inside works or not. If someone gets something out of it, if a clueless 13 year old does a fumbled spell in their bedroom using candles they stole from their Gran and a duvet cover for a robe, and it actually works for them, then I don't see what the problem is. Even if there's no theory or coherent belief system behind it, if it works it is effective magic.
 
 
Bill Posters
11:26 / 05.08.03
I do not expect many to hear more than the ravings of a self-centered megalomaniac.



the vast pile of shit that stocks these once sparse shelves of my local bookstore.

Mind telling us what've you published?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:59 / 05.08.03
Rothkoid I disagree with you when you say This sounds suspiciously like the pissing-upon of pop music that some fatbeards tend to do.

An awful lot of the books that are available, particularly wrt witchcraft, are absolute trash. They're all aimed at the Wiccan market, there's no information on what branch they're teaching and quite often it's completely made up. Yet Wicca is a religion, you can't invent it as you go along.


Anna: I agree with you. My beef's more with the attitude taken by some towards people that thrash around in the shallows of Silver RainLemur or whatever for a while - doesn't everyone, when they start out? True, there is such a great amount of shit out there that it's difficult to get a handle on what's taking the piss and what isn't - but people don't just spring into fully-formed witchery, as you point out. That's all I was saying: not that there's necessarily merit in books published, rather that their existence doesn't automatically give one the ability to piss upon their readers from a great height.

But what would I know - I'd be siding with those immature, hormonal girls then, right?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:01 / 05.08.03
Oh, and as for Fiona Horne: psychoactive summer my arse! (Sidebar: friend of mine was involved in a group with her before she started publishing. Said she was really quite nice, but went rather odd when she started churning the books out. Combination of flogging a formula and alienating her old friends, I hear...)
 
 
Quantum
13:15 / 05.08.03
It's superstition, not magic (me)
Even if it works? (Gypsy Lantern)

No, if it works it's magic (as you say). But most of those books won't contain anything that would ever work, they're coffee table books for wanna-blessed-bes to get freakchic from their friends.
I believe a lot of superstitions arose because people called in the local wise woman, she waved her hands and mumbled and threw salt over her shoulder, so they believe the salt throwing is the magic. Superstitions seem to me to be magic actions with the magic intent taken out, thus not magic.
Even if there's no theory or coherent belief system behind it, if it works it is effective magic. GL
I prefer effective magic with a coherent belief system behind it to effective magic without.

I don't care who I offend with my opinion that most new age magic books suck, though I haven't written any myself I've read more than enough- they suck. They are as likely to be written by a charlatan out to make a quick buck as they are by someone genuine, and the vast majority of systems they relate are made up arbitrarily by the author.
I've no objection to making up your own magic (far from it) but I wouldn't then go and publish my crazed and personal ramblings claiming they were universally applicable. If I wrote a book like that instead of saying 'To regain lost love tie pink string to a candle' it would say 'When inventing love spells try these elements...'.
Crap self help magic books are disempowering, they teach spells like they are objective formulae out there to find and they teach watered down pop spirituality that would make millions of native americans turn in their graves (or on their bower or whatever). They do more harm than good in my opinion because they encourage pop consumerist attitudes which (again IMO) are antithetical to a magical frame of mind.

A potentially good magician could read 'Mrs Beeton's Cookbook' and make magic happen, that doesn't make it a good magical book. If I were recommending stuff to a budding magus I would point them towards several books that suited their style but emphasise the practice (happens here in the magick forum a lot, n'est pas? anyone ever recommended Ravenpants to a newbie? Didn't think so), I wouldn't palm them off with trash just because it works for some people.

To end my rant I'd just like to draw a parallel with fiction. There are good and bad books, and despite the fact Mills and Boon make some people cry and laugh and are their favourite books, they're shit- badly written, formulaic and predictable. The books we're talking about in this thread are the Mills and Boon of occult literature, and as such I stand by my opinion that THEY SUCK.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:19 / 05.08.03
But most of those books won't contain anything that would ever work

I'd dispute that - the simplest candle magic spell can often be as effective as the most complex arcane 3 hour ceremonial ritual - if it's done well.

but I wouldn't then go and publish my crazed and personal ramblings claiming they were universally applicable.

Unlike Crowley or Austin Spare or Kenneth Grant, then.

If I wrote a book like that instead of saying 'To regain lost love tie pink string to a candle' it would say 'When inventing love spells try these elements...'.

But not everybody who buys these books wants to be a chaos magician straight off the bat do they. I'm pretty sure there a lot of people who would be fairly intimidated by the idea of constructing their own ritual, and would be unable to invest the appropriate level of belief in something that they themselves have invented. Hence a need for recipe books of this type which provide the necessary sense of reverence through the illusion of 'antiquity' or time-testedness.

If tying a pink string to a candle manages to do the trick, where is the problem? This sort of thing is not too far removed from hoodoo & rootwork, which is one of the most effective system of sorcery I've encountered. It doesn't really require a working philosophy or post-modern agenda behind it in order to function on its own terms.

Crap self help magic books are disempowering, they teach spells like they are objective formulae out there to find

A lot of people who buy this sort of recipe book might not be full-time practising magicians - like a lot of people here - they might not have any ambition or inkling to go that route either. In a lot of cases, I think these books sell to people who just want something simple and effective to do that will help them sort out a specific problem - they may not want to explore any deeper than that and certainly aren't planning on making a career out of it. I don't see any problem with books that cater to that market. Who exactly is being wronged in this?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:26 / 05.08.03
If I wrote a book like that instead of saying 'To regain lost love tie pink string to a candle' it would say 'When inventing love spells try these elements...'.
Crap self help magic books are disempowering


I'd hope you wouldn't write about love spells at all. Yuk, I hate those books. I hate them! I swear misinformed people only buy them for their friends who know quite a bit about thiskindathing. Arrrgghhh!
 
 
Quantum
14:50 / 05.08.03
Who exactly is being wronged in this? GL
Nobody's being wronged, it's not as though these books are a crime or a sin (although...) just that they're shit.

But most of those books won't contain anything that would ever work (me)
I'd dispute that - the simplest candle magic spell can often be as effective as the most complex arcane 3 hour ceremonial ritual - if it's done well.(GL)

Yes, that's true. If it's done well. How will a bad book teach you to do it well? Additionally, lots of these books deliberately take out anything that might actually work for fear of the christian right (cf 'Titanias book of spells') and are entirely faux witchery.

But what would I know - I'd be siding with those immature, hormonal girls then, right? Return of Rothkoid
It's not about the people it's about the books. They're shit. If teen witches read them, then realise they are shit, and then move on from there, hurrah!- as you say, who hasn't splashed around in the shallows?
One reason I hate them is that they displace valuable books- my local occult bookshop now no longer stocks any 'heavy' or 'serious' occult literature because there is so much more money in teen witchery and faux shamanism, and the scary books give the place a bad reputation with parents. GAH!

This isn't like people crapping on pop groups to be more cliquey than thou, it is like Freudian analysts discussing 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Penis' sorry, 'Venus'.
It's not that the people reading the crap books are stupid, it's that they are being misinformed. And it means less people believe in magic because it's already flimsy credibility is destroyed by misrepresentation. Grr.
 
 
Seth
19:16 / 05.08.03
I've barely looked at my local Waterstones, and own very few books about magic (and I've read fewer than I own). However, I'd be very interested in buying one and seeing exactly what I could get to work for me. Can anyone recommend something particularly *bad*?

What was that quote about the Invisibles...?

"Never underestimate the profundity of a trash medium."
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
01:58 / 06.08.03
Feudal, I'm pretty much all for what you said, really. The one mild issue with it that I have (as in this is the ONE thing that whenever anybody so much as mentions it I get really pissed off and have for years) is your use of the word "child". Now, I'm sure that this book you encountered is utter shit, the title alone should prove it.

However, (insert rather repetitive rant here) I have always had issues with the way people downplay "children". In the wise words of Orson Scott Card, "They call us children and they treat us like mice." Technically, I am a minor. Big whoopteyfuck, I've been acting like I was thirty since I was five. I don't give a shit about my age, I'm an adult as far as I see it, and people have told me that they thought I was a lot older then I really am. So there.
I really hate the idea that just because someone isn't an "adult" doesn't mean they can't be responsible enough to use magick. I would think that simply by digging around and finding the real stuff, not Harry-Potter-Gandalf-fluff-ball-newage-wizardry that a person would prove their worth. Something like magick shouldn't be based or age, race, sex or anything like that. I'm a magician. Still fairly new, but I've got some connections, and I come from a seriously messed up family history, and I think I do alright for myself.

Okay, end rant. And like I said, the rest of your stuff I totally agree with. I'm just a really passionate believer in the rights of minors and have been since I was ten. So, yeah, that's all for now.
 
 
*
02:58 / 06.08.03
You can't keep teens out of magic.

The teenage years, precisely because they're a time for hormone-charged, angst-fueled self-exploration, are when most people who are going to become magicians stumble into it. Writing books aimed at teens will not greatly increase this tendency, and preventing these books from reaching their target audience will not decrease this tendency.

One doesn't have to be a chaos magician to construct a ritual; one of the first things I read in one of those fluff new age books you're getting so hot under the collar at was that one should learn to construct one's own rituals once one had an idea about useful ritual structure. Granted their idea of useful ritual structure was the new age fluffy wicca version, but as soon as I started writing my own I figured out what worked better for me. Some people have been working for years, and have developed impressive abilities with that kind of structure. I worked with a pretty new age fluffy Wiccan who packed a wallop when she needed to-- and her favorite book to work from was DJ Conway's "Dragon Magick". I wouldn't have taken her on when her dragon protectors were around. I don't know why it worked for her, but it did.

Magic is largely self-policing. The reason being that to go far in magic one has to practice it on oneself (either knowingly or not). Those who don't stop practicing and eventually regard it as a hobby of foolish youth. Those who do may begin with Sliver Bagelfluff, but will end up at this board (and many of them have; "Silver Broomstick" was my second book in the subject when I was an angst-ridden teen), or elsewhere, carrying out serious Work.

I hear what you say about the shit-books displacing the good stuff though. First, it's harder to write a book on good stuff, because so much of it is hard to put into words. Also, it's harder to sell because there are fewer of us than there are of dabblers. Someday in the future I would like to run a bookstore which carried only really excellent material, but alas I think the majority of my sales would be by mail or web, because finding a community in which there are a sizable number of people who can tell their ass from their elbow, magically speaking, might be difficult.

If the people reading the misinformation are not stupid, they'll figure out that there's more to this than poppets and candle-spells. If they are stupid, they ought not to be playing with the sharp implements anyway and it's a good thing the first thing they picked up was a butter knife. And, aside from the pressures of collective disbelief, which is always a challenge to overcome, what's wrong with people who ought not to be getting anywhere near magic thinking it doesn't work? I look at it as an automatic screening process.

To be brutally honest, I think the reason why new agey books make me mad sometimes is that I want to think I know something other people don't. It makes me feel superior. I've fallen prey to that kind of feeling time and time again. And as long as I can see the new-agey books and laugh behind my hand at them and their adherents, I'm fine. It's when I think they might actually do something that I get mad. I can disguise it with righteous indignation-- "These people might do something dangerous and hurt somebody!" But all it is is my offended sense of superiority. I've got a lot of work to do in that regard.
 
 
Salamander
03:48 / 06.08.03
but if we didn't have millions of books on candle magick, the candle industry would fold!!
 
 
rakehell
04:35 / 06.08.03
But isn't it better that kids can go to a regular bookshop and find these books? Surely anyone truly interested will go on to find more.

Does everyone here consider themselves chaos magicians? Because his reeks of the sort of magickal elitisms and in-fighting chaos magick sought to wipe away. No, it's a fairy. No, it's a thought form. No, it's a loa. No, it's the Holy Spirit.

I wish these books were everywhere and everyone was aware of their choices. Not every 13 year old, nor indeed, every 30 year old, can read Crowley - nor should they. They can start on these and move on, if it's something that's a part of you, you won't be ale to resist it, no matter what.

What I'd hate to see happen is for some to read one of those book, try and learn more, read this thread, become discouraged, throw their "trash" book away and go back to their mundane life.

That would be the only thing which would be shit.

Oh, and Anna, I know someone who communicated with Kali when ze was 8 or so and ze turned out just fine. Different strokes.
 
 
Moth
05:44 / 06.08.03
i could swear Grant Morrison predicted this in an interview about two years ago. At least, books/magazines on magic for teen witches in every bookstore withint a year bit. Darned it I can find it though.
 
 
illmatic
07:14 / 06.08.03
Does everyone here consider themselves chaos magicians?

Certainly not. I hate the fucking word "magician" for a start. it reminds me of the debate on energy we had on here a while back -the the use of the term "energy" was critqued becuase it might pull a mask over more complex and interesting processes. I wonder if the same might apply for thinking of yourself as a "magician" - but that's another thread.

With regard to the dodgy books, hmm, dunno - can see both sides of the arguement. I think it's marketing that drives it - it's easier to churn out another popularist rehash than it is to comission something original. I think a lot of the trashy end of the market books are just written for a quick return and that explains that lack of original thought that goes into 'em. Thinking of the I Ching market there's loads of shite rip off I Ching's out there and I'd like to see some more original books, but I can see why they don't get published - if there were loads of high quality books out there, they still might only acheive minimal sales, "The public gets what the public wants" to quote The Jam.

This is not to say that these I Ching's don't work, though - no problem with that idea. However, I did see an "I Ching for Teens" the other week, and I thought "why?" There's no real need for that, it's just a marketing niche. I appreciate what Spyder is saying about patronising or dumbing down - if anyone or whatever age asked me what translation to get, I'd say Richard Wilhelm. It might exercise your grey matter a ittle more, but so what?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:25 / 06.08.03
Oh, and Anna, I know someone who communicated with Kali when ze was 8 or so and ze turned out just fine. Different strokes.

Hell I'm not saying no kids should ever communicate with Kali. You can't rule everything out for everyone but if you do that there has to be some kind of natural inclination inside you- you shouldn't do it as a rote spell some beginner's book has recommended!
 
 
Quantum
09:18 / 06.08.03
Does everyone here consider themselves chaos magicians?
Does anybody here consider themself a chaos magician?

I can understand why people are cautious to condemn, and that there's value in everything, and there is the shadow of elitism involved, but none of that stops the books being rubbish. (I feel I should point out that I'm not saying ban them, or that they are objectively bad, when I say 'They suck' I mean 'They suck in my opinion', obviously.)

Set- a quick search revealed
MAKING MAGICK: What It Is and How It Works
By Edain McCoy, published by Llewellyn. 336pp. ISBN: 1-56718-670-X
from http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/reviews/book_m.htm
the review I thought was great-
"McCoy's latest book is essentially more of the same from Llewellyn - yet another Wicca 101 containing a mish-mash of the same clichéd, unoriginal and unchallenging "magick for beginners" which McCoy and not a few others have already done to death. Unfortunately this stuff is showing no signs of reincarnating or taking on new life."

"Like most of these Llewellyn wicca 101 books, this one is full of banale platitudes and factual inaccuracies. I suggest that books like this pose more of a danger to paganism than the Christian Right will ever do, because they are an Enemy Within, subverting the Mysteries and dumbing them down for spirituality's equivalent of the daytime television audience. At least the Christian Right are honest enemies."

or perhaps you wanted something not quite that bad?
 
 
—| x |—
11:40 / 06.08.03
“He is only just as good as he who is the worst.”

Who gets what and when—are these the issues? I don’t see it, not really. Isn’t it less about whose holier than their own shit, what books will give what sorts of glances, insights, or strings to follow, or what sorts of magic/k are better than others, but more about readily giving access to any individual something that requires sincerity and dedication, something that is not without repercussions or responsibility? We are presented here with the metaphor of the surgeon—think about it.

Perhaps, as intuition speaks here Anna, you are the one in the “few thousand” who would actually be a natural surgeon. Maybe you always knew it, like when you were four and stitching up your plush toys, and then later when you were able to dissect worms, frogs, and what-nots with precision and ease in your biology classes. Or whatever. I feel that you, Anna—even though I only know you from your writings here in Litherland—are one of those people who has always been in a relationship with magic/k, but you likely thought it was simply the way life was until you were old enough to learn that it wasn’t and that most people had specific names for some of the things that, as a child, you didn’t need to name. Or not.

And here let me say that I firmly dis/believe that every child has some sort of direct relation with the unnamable (thus, part of the ready nature to acquire language), but as they learn more, and are brought closer to, what we will call, “the dominant paradigm,” this relationship is weaned off for the sake of common modes of thinking: linear, rational, “factual.” There are no imaginary friends, right?

I know you know. I think you know.

I think that perhaps some of us here are taking this wonderful Litherland for granted. What I mean is, if you do know, and I think you do (and please note the shift from ‘you’ = Anna to ‘you’ = you that began with the above snippet of wisdom from your friendly neighbourhood nomeansno), then you also realize that, well goddamn, you ain’t really so much like most people you know. Not that you are necessarily so really different—you needn’t be clad in leather trousers with piercings and tats out the wazoo to be different, I think you know—but if you are like me and we are indeed together, then we are a little different from the “average” or the “mean’ (and here I hope in all senses!). Spend some time with a child—the younger the better—they know, you know, and we can see it.

Which is to say that I needn’t be using ‘child’ here in a derogatory sense. In fact, it is also one of my pet peeves when a person tends to do this. I recently found myself telling someone something similar to what you’ve said, spyder. There are v. important aspects of “child-like” behaviour, I feel, in magic/kal practice: wonder, courage, selfish will, and etc.. Moreover, there is simply good vibes in the cliché regarding “being young at heart.” What I mean, more here by ‘child’ is the average, typical, everyday youngster, living in a more or less average, typical, everyday environment—you know, the kind of environment that gives magic/k no respect other than as Hollywood/Disney effects, fakes & shams (not fakirs & shamans), hoaxes, frauds, and stupid teenage rebellion (and here I’d like to note that to me I’ve not said anything gender specific, and would like to say that when I see the word ‘witch’ or mention “hormonally charged, unbalanced, and largely hesitant in issues of self-identity humans,” let’s please be clear that I mean girls as well as boys), or the rising tide of stupid trash, crystal buying, 401 and 1 tarot for your collection, love & money spells, do this and then…, poppet punch in the head herb purchasing zombies. Put differently, for magic/k to actually be a healthy part of anyone’s life, they have to let all this retarded reflection of bent-up consumer obsession, pop cola crunch candy factory bullshit rot not the teeth of our minds, but in the darkest, coldest tomb that we can create (and then will set it all on fire—just to be sure!).

So to get to a few questions, all of a sudden like:

Because you don't approve of the level of scholarship in the books they are using? Because you feel they haven't yet paid their dues in some way by having easier access to this material than you or I did?

No and no. Some people have not merely garbage to spout, but put potentially dangerous practices into the hands of those who cannot in any way said to be ready or prepared for the responsibility. Perhaps you would be comfortable with a fourteen year old taking out your appendix or removing your child’s tonsils, but not me. Put differently, I don’t particularly desire some ignorant child (‘cause it is the rare child who is wise beyond hir years—perhaps like some of us freaks!) casting spells at me or my family and friends. Nor do I want my child to get mixed up with children who are burning candles and chanting to Hecate in their basement without someone there who is more informed than from the mere pages of a crap ass book that suggests getting Hecate’s attention for some psuedo-high school trauma (“Oh, Johnny wouldn’t take me to the dance. SOB.”) is a good idea. Yep, I’m sure that old crone loves when the innocent little children come a knockin’…

So to answer your first question, “Why, exactly, have these largely speculative teenagers got no right to make use of magical processes to benefit their own lives if they feel inclined to?” It’s because by and large they’re fucking idiots without discipline or respect—these required traits they can pick up through their mundane affairs and works with the world. Walk before running, and so on. Moreover, they’ve enough “magic” living their teenage lives than most full grown adults are able to maintain on a day-to-day basis: most teens I know don’t need to be summoning this or that or casting this or that or whatever—they’re already occupied with a “walkabout” that many people do not seem to return from, and so, slip into sleep as adults. Most teens simply don’t need this sort of thing in their lives—esp. if it is not coming from a person they can interact with, a person more experienced to act as a guide and tutor, a person they can respect, a person from whom they can learn to Self-respect.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:47 / 06.08.03
There's a part of me that feels you are doing children everywhere a disservice. Underestimating their talent and in some cases overestimating their immediate ability and more importantly you are assuming that the average kid can't think. I don't agree, I think the kids who go for this kind of thing are the ones who are trying their hardest and what's available? Junk books. It's like going in to a restaurant desparate for steak and getting McDonalds. We need to show them immediately that this is a discipline that you need to commit yourself to and not Titania's love parade.

I also agree with you. To be honest I mostly agree with you but I think your attitude is pessimistic and arrogant. The best way to learn is to apprentice yourself out. I was aching to be taught when I was younger but I never met anyone that I felt had anything to teach me. Witchcraft is difficult, it's been claimed by the New Age and that isn't right. Witchcraft is a domestic art, it applies the normal to worship... that's why the current branches tend to deal with herb and kitchen magic. It's a quiet art and it runs through the everyday and it's been perverted by wishful, untidy and insipid misinformation.

At the end of the day everyone can't be a natural. I use html but I'm not a master at it. I get things wrong and I find a way to fix it, it just takes me far longer than other people. I prefer to think of magic in those terms and not as some surgical technique even while I feel impatient with people who try despite never guessing accurately. And you're right of course, I was born to this, I recall sitting in infant assembly (I must have been about 6 at the time) and considering goddess worship.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
13:33 / 06.08.03
Didn't GM say something about just letting kids have at it? universes, you're saying when teens become adults they generally become rather close minded, which I rather have to agree with. So, if we are to assume for a moment that we want more people taking "magic" seriously and building psychic defenses against people who would just exploit them, wouldn't during childhood and adolescence be the time to do it? When they'll be more likely to accept the possibility that it's all true?
It seems to me that we'll just be shutting ourselves in the foot if we take a stance that "children can't handle the responsibility" blah blah bullshit. So, give a kid you know Sandman or The Invisibles instead of Harry Potter. (I'd wait til their 12 or so to give them the Invisibles, but, whatever. I first read Sandman at 11) Then when they have questions about what the fuck is going on, explain it to them as equals. That way they'll grow up into the stuff, and maybe will have fewer Wiccian 101 books...
 
 
Quantum
13:46 / 06.08.03
The best way to learn is to apprentice yourself out. I was aching to be taught when I was younger but I never met anyone that I felt had anything to teach me. Anna
I am still aching to be taught, and still haven't found anyone I feel I would want to apprentice myself to. Everything I know I've learnt from reading, or discussion with peers, or inspiration, deduction etc.
So since it's almost impossible to become a magicians apprentice (any of you out there got an apprentice- or a teacher?) it's about what you read and what people tell you. If you only have access to crap and so do your peers, how do you learn magic?

I'm not sure about the surgery metaphor. Inexperienced magicians are far more likely to acheive nothing than something dangerous.
And I'm definitely not against teen magic, and even if I were it's irrelevant. If you told my seventeen year old self (or any me actually) not to get into magic, I'd tell you to fuck right off. I suspect most of you, dear readers, would do the same.

“Why have these teenagers got no right to make use of to benefit their own lives?” It’s because by and large they’re fucking idiots without discipline or respect
So they differ from most adults how?
 
 
Quantum
14:06 / 06.08.03
give a kid you know Sandman or The Invisibles Spyder
..or the Books of Magic, then Promethea. In fact everyone should read Promethea, it's practically a guide to self-awakening and magick on it's own. I particularly love the scene where Austin Osman Spare, Crowley and John Dee interact with the characters for example, or the whole Thoth/Hermes sequence as they progress up the sephiroth.
 
 
Salamander
15:18 / 06.08.03
Well to start, I consider myself to be a chaos magician, anyone that doesn't like my label for myself can eat it.

So anyway, I think kids should be given access to books (info, anything!) on magick, I mean, jesus christ! Thats were the ego solidifies people! Thats were they make the real decisions and get the PERMENANT (or relatively so) imprints. If I hadn't been introduced to these ideas when I was a teenager, I'd be in some office cubical somewhere whiping the shit of my nose. It's not about if it's dangerous or if it's right, or if it's crap or how we are influencing them, let these stars be to traverse there damn course in the cosmos as they will, don't withhold, don't push, just let them have it and let them be, they'll suprise you...

Yeah and I always wished I had a teacher, never found one, but now I am one, alot of the people that ask me to teach do it because of the crap on the shelves, even the polywogs know it's crap, and the true "mundanes" I suppose don't, doesn't matter. In my oppinion, the world would be a hell of alot more fun if everyone were throwing around spells, why not, cause your worried you might have to watch your ass?
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
16:42 / 06.08.03
Dude, you dudes don't even know the half of it. The other day, I saw this in an airport bookstore:

The Everything Kids' Witches and Wizards Book

This book contains, wrapped up all nice for mom's credit card, occult techniques like sigils, guided visualization, various forms of divination, Promethea-style writing magick, magical attack of enemies, and herbal experiments sure to send Junior to rehab when she hits her teen years.

But best of all–best of all–is the section where kids are encouraged to "spend a day looking for signs in the world that you are a powerful wizard."

Yes. They encourage eight-year-olds to take the Oath of the Abyss.

I am not making this up.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
01:01 / 07.08.03
Suitcase Boy, that's great! Teaching kids to use sigils is fucking hilarious!

HN, I always sort of wanted a teacher too, but I haven't found one.... I wonder if I will.
 
 
Salamander
02:54 / 07.08.03
oh you know, when the student is ready sumthin' sumthin', hang in there, only ∞ days till the end of the world!! Sumthins bound to happen then!
 
  

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