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Underground > Comic Books >

Look Kids, No Comics!

  
  

Page: 1(2)3

 
 
sleazenation
18:30 / 10.07.03
The Comics Journal shouldn't even need counter other magazines, that it continually tries to bespeaks of an overcompensation complex the size of several small planets. I don't object to the Comic Journal on the grounds that it focuses on a wide range of comics, I do object to the editorialising and rhetoric which i find so unnesscessary and distasteful that I can seldom bring myself to buy it for any other reason than an interview.

It is a continual source of disappointment to me that the comics journal still sees fit to cripple itself and refuse to grow out of its parochial codependancy on superhero comics.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:48 / 10.07.03
A show of hands:

How many people posting on Barbelith actually buy the Comics Journal?

I think I've maybe bought five issues in the past six years.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
18:53 / 10.07.03
I may be biased, since I'm a TCJ subscriber and I only flip through Wizard maybe twice a year, but when TCJ lavishes praise upon something, my "ears" perk up. When Wizard tosses out the accolades...nnnnnot so much so. Comparing their respective critical standards is really so many apples and oranges. Although I do tend to take Wizard's indie slamming and TCJ's (admittedly occasional) mainstream bashing with the same grain of salt. Such displays seem just a weensy bit defensive at times, methinks.
 
 
sleazenation
18:57 / 10.07.03
Roughly about as many issues (7) over a roughly comparable time frame as you flux the most recent being an anniversary issue that featured an interview with Raymond Briggs...
 
 
sleazenation
19:01 / 10.07.03
and to make this really interesting lets have a similar show of hands to people who have bought wizard.

I have in my life bought it twice in ten years both in the days before the internet. I have tho got every issue of comics international since 1992...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:04 / 10.07.03
I had a subscription to Wizard from about somewhere starting in 1993 up through mid 2001 or so. For the last few years of it, I kept wondering what kind of never-ending subscription they had me on - I never recall intentionally renewing the thing since I turned about 19. I mostly read Wizard because I didn't have steady internet access, and it was good for comics news, and during a stretch of two years or so during college, it was a convenient way of keeping tabs on all of the mainstream comics without having to read them or visit comics stores.
 
 
bio k9
20:21 / 10.07.03
What will happen to Wizard if Marvel goes away?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:30 / 10.07.03
DC will finally get laid, probably.

So to speak.
 
 
sleazenation
20:32 / 10.07.03
Wizard was popular with the image kids a decade ago, yet it survived their contraction and splintering, in the highly speculative post marvel world i'm sure Wizard could find stuff to cover... they do have newstand distribution afterall...
 
 
Dave Philpott
02:56 / 11.07.03
Back to the article (found in great length in CBR's "Lying in the Gutters), the writer speculates that Wizard will fold when Marvel goes tits-up. Henny-Penny also says that the whole industry will dry-up and be forgotten, like yesterday's K-Swiss. But I think this is bullshit.

Disney proved that an icon and media giant can survive by neglecting their first-born. Are they in financial ruin? No. Have they released a single new animated movie featuring their core characters? No. Have any of their recent releases been worth a shit? No. Yet they will continue to maintain their legendary status, living on through their licensing. So I think it is possible for Marvel to drop comics and still thrive on the success of its past. And if they do, I don't think the whole industry will collapse because of it. The void will suck until it is filled, nature says.

The real problem I have with the article is the accusation that Jemas is white-washing the Marvel U. She says Jemas plans to fire the celebrity creators and fill the positions with interchangeable unknowns. She says he wants homogenization, consistency in art and stories across the board, so that he can fire and rehire seamlessly and when the mood strikes. Jemas is trying to shape the Marvel U in his image, which she sums as disposable, get-the-money-and-get-out comic books. If this happens, and they continue to sell books, she then fears DC will try the same approach.

I don't know how much stock I put in any of this, but based solely on the smarmy comments Jemas often drops in interviews, I wouldn't put it past him. If Marvel's revenue from comics is only five percent of the whole, whose fault is that? He likes to blame the readers, but we fucking buy comics every month. The problem is that they advertise to us when they should be advertising to the general public.

The past couple of years, this one in particular, have seen comic-related movies dominate the box office. Marvel should be cleaning up with all of this interest. Why aren't they advertising in places like Rolling Stone (or any magazine besides comic journals), or on TV, or, for fuck's sake IN THE TRAILERS BEFORE THEIR MOVIES?

I'm spiralling off into tangents here and I apologize, but Jesus Christ, for such a long-lived corporation they really seem to have their heads up their asses.

And fuck 'em for passing on my Epic pitch, the twats.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:36 / 11.07.03
I get the Journal every month, mostly for the interviews. Their reviews get more obscure and obtuse every year. In some ways (other than RCHarvey) it's very much a pat on the back to the books they like and convincing you that if you read them, you are saving comics.

But they do a decent review once in a while when they step out of that role and review an important work like Palestine or Stuck Rubber Baby. But, their news coverage has REALLY suffered under the current editor, and the reviews are usually for comics so obscure I haven't heard of them...and I read obscure stuff.

And WHY Kenneth Smith is given column inches is beyond me.
 
 
NezZ the 2nd
09:18 / 11.07.03
"for fuck's sake IN THE TRAILERS BEFORE THEIR MOVIES?"

rofl

haha, that was funny but a good point. anyway back to topic. i like barbelith because it appears to have intelligent people speaking about a form of media that i love and i hope will always love. i dont "get" why there is such anti-superhero ethics here tho. i understand that a lot of superhero books are shite but surely so are a lot of films, music and every other medium. what i am trying to say is that without the superhero books, the indie books you herald would not be around, because i feel that an industry that is in such trouble would not survive without the superhero books. so therefore i find it strange you have such disregard for something you actually need to exist.

the fantagraphics issue - i would have bought some books from their site - but as a UK resident, i am not paying the bloody shipping charges, especially in this new fangled "dollar" money!!

plus on a finishing note new x-men, x-statix etc are superhero books and they are just quality. without these and other superhero books there would not be such a choice in genre. why deny choice. you may not like rap music but it does not harm you that it exists???
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
10:22 / 11.07.03
I wrote this in the "Mainstream" thread, but it looks like this one is veering right towards it, so here you go:

"The biggest successes in the film world last year, and this year were on the whole Sci-fi and fantasy movies."

All of which has nothing to do with the success or failure of comic book stories, which are read and not watched. If comic book companies try to compete against visual media, they will always fail. Thus, trends in one should have little bearing on trends in the other. If comics really want to be "mainstream," they have to be mainstream in terms of print media. A completely different animal. Think about the fact that comic book movies do well on enormous scales and comics do not. I believe strongly that everyone who sees, say, Spider-Man, has at one point or another had an opportunity to extend their enjoyment of the film into the reading of Spider-Man comics. Nearly all of them (yes, statistically it's pretty much true) did not.

Because reading is different than watching, even when you get pictures with the words.

So, are all moviegoers illiterate? Of course not. I'm sure they read plenty. So, why aren't they reading comics? Why aren't comics "mainstream" the way Ready Made or Wired or The Corrections is/are?

Well, put four items on a table in the middle of Times Square.

The Corrections. Jimmy Corrigan. A Spider-Man TPB. A Spider-Man DVD.

Which would get picked last?

Well, the DVD would definitely go first. Movies are a medium made perfectly for carrying the stories of strong and easily identifiable protagonists. A few seconds worth of shots of Spider-Man soaring through NYC show an audience the visceral excitement of his concept more effectively than a thousand issues of a comic book could.

Then someone who, you know, is pretty intelligent reader comes along picks up The Corrections. He or she has heard of it. It's got some heft to it. Not bad for 25 bucks. Sold.

Next up, The Jimmy Corrigan book has a nice appeal. It's undeniably stylish. There's some great self-deprication on the softcover edition that ought to hook The Daily Show crowd. It's also priced in proportion to what it has to offer.

Then we're left with a poorly designed, flimsy book that certainly doesn't feel like it's worth fourteen bucks. I think someone pointed out next door that all comics in bookstores look shitty because everyone reads them in the store. Not surprising, especially when it comes to paperbacks. The only paperbacks I ever buy are the more literary ones because you buy things to add to your personal library. They're books I want to go back to. I want to see how a particular panel was handled or a snippet of dialogue. Super-Hero comics, by and large, don't cater to the kind of mentality. Trade paperbacks are just reference materials for storylines and, with the internet, who needs those?

It's sad, because there are a good deal of comics being made right now that do cater to that mentality. X-Force, Daredevil, New X-Men, these are comics that have moments that can be returned to, that are worth owning, not just flipping through.

If comics want to be "mainstream" they have to make a decision. They need to create complete packages that are worth spending money on and owning and keeping. That are well designed and feature top drawer storytelling and artwork that is undeniably appealing.

Or they need to be completely disposable in every way. Which is why Manga is popular. Duh.

I buy a large amount of comics every week. I sit down on Wednesday evenings and read them, and inevitably they fall into two categories. There's books I'm keeping up with. That I read and then put away. Keep for no reason other than a desire to not throw things away that I paid money for. Then there are those that I know I'll read again. I'll read them again when they're collected. I'll read them again when I'm waiting for them to be collected. They work, not just as a part of an ongoing narrative that's entertaining in and of itself, but as quality creative works.

The key here, though, are the hugely differing expectations between reading and watching. Think about school, for instance. Think about your reactions to a) assigned reading b) watching a movie in class. Both are mandated by a teacher, but we all know what a class' reactions are to the two of them.

But everyone reads newspapers. Because they're cheap. The main reason that comics are not mainstream is because you need a very large amount of disposable income to read comics the way I described above. And is that kind of investment worth it for most people? Not really. It's much more likely that someone is going to spend that kind of money on something that will last in the minds. That they'll want to return to. Comics are designed like magazines but promoted like books. That just will never ever work on a large scale.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:35 / 11.07.03
Lull: i dont "get" why there is such anti-superhero ethics here tho.

By 'here', do you mean in this thread or on Barbelith in general? If it's the latter, take a look again at the first two pages of the Comics forum. Superhero comics dominate Barbelith, even if they're the edgier, more respectable variety. If it's the former - well, I think Flux summed it up pretty well here: It's the wildly disproportionate ratio of genre representation in most comic books stores that make them off-putting. It's not that people are necessarily anti-superhero, when superheroes are done well. It's that we're sick of the genre being confused with the medium, and the way in which some people seem quite happy to propogate that further.
 
 
sleazenation
11:10 / 11.07.03
actually what i find most interesting is lull's assertion "what i am trying to say is that without the superhero books, the indie books you herald would not be around,"

I'd like to see you unpick that a little lull, where do you see the link between indie books and superhero comics?... in fact i'm going to start a new thread...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:06 / 11.07.03
Have any of [Disney's] recent releases been worth a shit? No.

I can't speak for the quality of the films, but all of Disney's Pixar films have been wildly successful and are revolutionizing the animation. Finding Nemo is the highest grossing film of the year, hands down.

To reiterate what Flyboy is saying, Barbelith is anything but an anti-superhero zone. A lot of us definitely have a strong fanboy streak, but have other interests in the comics medium as well. I would say that most of us have a very healthy balance, in terms of taste.

The ratio thing is key. Imagine if you had a tv set, and 85% of the channels were playing nothing but game shows. Day in, day out, it's mostly game shows, but there are a handful of channels playing other programming. And those channels get very shaky reception, and some people in your neighborhood can't even get them. It's kinda like that.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
12:16 / 11.07.03
There are strong arguments that, on one level, comic book stores might not exist without super-hero books, but even that doesn't need to be true. Look at a place like Qumiby's. It's wholly possible to build a marketplace for independent comics without relying on super-hero books to pay the bills. You just might not be perceived as a "comic book store" per se. I've never been there, but I believe Page 45 has a similar setup, from what I remember in their Cerebus editorials from days gone by.

I also don't really buy the idea that comics wouldn't exist without super-heroes. Chris Ware still would have found collections of Krazy Kat strips and would have been inspired by them. He might not have had such a great template for his visualization of God, but he still would've been putting words and pictures together in such a fashion.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:19 / 11.07.03
I don't understand the assertion that if superhero comics weren't around, the indie books wouldn't either. Where is the logic in that?

1) The overwhelming majority of superhero-centric comic shops hardly do small press/indie books many favors. It's definitely good when they do sell them, but I think people vastly overestimate how many people buy those kind of comics at those kind of stores. Catalog/online sales account for a large chunk of indie book distribution. Real book stores, coffee shops, and some music stores account for some of those sales too.

2) The people who make indie releases definitely have to struggle a bit more than most mainstream Marvel/DC/Image creators. They are in this because it is a labor of love, and they completely own what create. Most of them go into it knowing that they might not ever make money, and that it is often a miracle just to break even. These are people who have never been deterred by impossible odds before, and would definitely find a way around another major industry crash. These are the cockroaches of the comics industry. They will survive.

I think that if something really bad happened to a lot of the high end companies (Fantagraphics, Drawn & Quarterly, Top Shelf), you may see more of those creators end up with contracts with regular book companies, as has been the case with Daniel Clowes, Phoebe Gloeckner, and Chris Ware.
 
 
sleazenation
12:51 / 11.07.03
er flux - there is another thread here to discuss the origins of indie comics
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
14:23 / 11.07.03
Funny that you should correct him, sleaze, when he finally almost got back to the point of the thread.

I don't think that comics would disappear if Marvel went out of business, and I would like to once again point out that this Feliciua does not substantiate her facts, but it would cripple the market in a different way then it did in the 80's.

Indies such as Top Shelf, Fantagraphics, Alternative Comics, and Hoghwater would still survive, but to a lesser degree. I witnessed Tom Devlin, EIC of Highwater Press, sweating before the beast that is Bob Shreck (editor of DC's Batman line), who spoke at last year's MOCCA, saying that he didn't know how he got by each year. Shreck's point was that you had to give the fans what they want, yadda yadda yadda (which was ironic as DK2 was on the stands as he spoke).

Shreck's point was that the comic market is primarily in comic shops and in the 'graphic novel' section of bookstores (commonly lumped in with sci-fi for some reason where there is no GN section). In order to be recognized and be successful, a publisher has to cater to the needs and demands of an audience that shops there... Therefore DC deluges the joint with modern Green Lanter collections.

Shreck is an ass and upset the audience at MOCCA to some extent. To some this was a call to arms, a jab in the arm that they needed to somehow make their book more appealing, play up to movie standards and themes (something that DC and Kirby did in the 70's with sci-fi themed New Gods, Jimmy Olsen and Kamandi and Marvel as well with Kraven, 2001, etc.). Indies such as Couriers, WhiteOut, Last of the Independents all cater to a pop movie idiom, and do it well. Other Indy artists just shrugged off Shreck's 2 cents and continued doing what they like, living with the money they could get by on.

One artist was even proudly displying his blurb in Wizard which proclaimed him as talent worthy of recognition. The blurb had a pic of Spidey he did.I asked if he was doing the longjohned perpetual teen and he rolled his eyes, saying "Why would anyone want to? If it meant I could sell my own comics more easily, sure. A pic of Spiderman certainly gets the customers over to my table, right?" Odd that... a documented case of Wizard getting people to buy an Indy. Huh.

But we both agreed that Spider-Man is like Latin, a dead character. Very good in the 60's and 70's when Marvel was revolutionizing comics with their new style, but as the late 70's rolled on, it turned into a 'usual business' title with Spidey fighting some dude, hung up on a girl, etc etc... never to age past 30-something.

So I propose that Indies would survive somehow, but a very select group of them. A group that did cater to the demands of the market. What those demands are is vague and debatable. But without a venue that exclusively sells comics and the money to fill San Diego ballrooms with people eager to be told what is good and hot, those Indies are going to have to be far more inventive and courageous than they have been before.
 
 
diz
14:31 / 11.07.03
Disney proved that an icon and media giant can survive by neglecting their first-born... Have any of their recent releases been worth a shit? No.

Lilo & Stitch was the bomb.

The past couple of years, this one in particular, have seen comic-related movies dominate the box office. Marvel should be cleaning up with all of this interest.

maybe. i think that sitting and watching a movie for 2 hours is a much smaller commitment than following a monthly. i don't think that most people who watched Spider-Man are going to have the long-term depth of interest to follow a Spidey comic (or even wade through the, what, five? six? current Spidey monthlies to figure out which one they like...)
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:27 / 11.07.03
Shreck's point was that you had to give the fans what they want, yadda yadda yadda (which was ironic as DK2 was on the stands as he spoke).

Wait, how is that ironic? Dark Knight 2 was something fanboys had been wanting for about a decade.

I fail to see what the whims of the type of people willing to go to comic book conventions have to do with anything aside from the history of very dim-witted marketing on every level of the industry.

Catering to the (questionable) tastes of a dwindling core readership is a decent short-term idea, but it is a very bad longterm investment. The type of people who visit comic book stores every Wednesday to buy several comics a week, and attend comic book conventions are anything BUT a mainstream audience.

I agree with Benjamin completely - trying to compete with movies, tv, and videogames is a truly awful idea, because comics will ALWAYS LOSE that competition in terms of mainstream acceptance. Always. I promise you. Every single time. It doesn't matter one bit if your comic book is reminiscent of some movie or whatever. It won't help. No one will care if your comic is a poor man's Buffy or Shreck or Resident Evil, whatever. It doesn't matter if your lead characters were featured in a film that grossed over $200 million at the box office. It. Doesn't. Matter.
 
 
sleazenation
15:31 / 11.07.03
Funny that you should correct him, sleaze, when he finally almost got back to the point of the thread.

Yeah, I appear to have had a p[retty abysmal day in that regard...
 
 
moriarty
16:20 / 11.07.03
Marvel's publishing arm accounts for 20% of their revenue, not 5%.

The idea that Marvel might close it's publishing arm has been brought up on Barbelith before. It only makes sense from a business perspective. Every one of the major movies based on Marvel properties involved characters that were created in the 60s by a small handful of creators (the plots of the Daredveil and X-Men movies may have been inspired by more recent storylines, but even those are well over a decade old). It really makes no sense to contiue with the comics.

Various eras of leadership at Marvel Comics (not necessarily including the current one) have done their best to equate Marvel Comics (and, subsequently, superhero comics) with comics in general. If there's a possibility that the downfall of Marvel Comics would bring about the end of the comic book industry, it's really the fault of the comics community, which put all their eggs in one basket to begin with.

Marvel wasn't always the top dog. When the Marvel explosion of the sixties occured, it was the upstart. The company was so powerless that they had to rely on DC Comics for distribution, who limited the amount of titles Marvel was allowed to distribute. That's why in the beginning Marvel didn't expand past (I think it was) 7 titles. After a few years, Marvel upped the number to (again, going on shaky memory) 12, until Marvel got out from under DC. Today, Marvel is like DC of that era. It's time for new blood.

I don't think I agree with the idea that superheroes/fantasy/sci-fi/crime dominate the shelves. While the last three may have a sizable share of comic book output, the three combined pale in comparison to superheroes. That is, unless you count hybrid genres, like superhero-crime. I tend to think of them as simply superhero comics. My aunts love the more "genteel" mystery books and movies, like Agatha Christie, but there's very little in crime comics these days that would interest them, unlike the 40s, 50s and 60s, in which there were such titles available. There are a greater variety of sub-genres in every other medium then there is in today's comics. Simply issuing a token Western comic once a year, then abandoning it and declaring it a failure, doesn't work. Unfortunately, the companies are so close to the line that it's too late to back something that might only pay off in a few years, if at all (Crossgen being the exception, with Epic being a plan that could yield these kinds of comics easily, if Marvel chooses). Again, at this point, I don't blame them.

I remember being upset that Marvel abandoned its initial idea of having the Ultimate line be geared towards people with lower reading comprehension (slyly avoiding the word "kids"). Of course, it's ridiculous that I should expect Marvel to save the comics industry. If that's not their concern, that's their business. No matter what they do, supposedly right or wrong, they're doing it for what they believe is the best thing for their shareholders. That's why I find Felicia's rant to be so annoying. She's seems to have pinned all her hopes for the future of comics on Marvel, when doing that is what got the comic book industry into this mess in the first place.

Some people think Manga is the new Marvel, shaking things up like Marvel did in the sixties. If the kids are reading the Manga (and judging by most recent excursion to the comic store, they are), then we can expect to see the comic creators of tomorrow relying on those comics as their model, just like today's are influenced by Marvel, DC, Image, etc. And when those readers grow up, even if they've abandoned comics along the way, they too may get back into comics for nostalgia purposes, reading the books of their contemporaries.

Though I'm sure many people still read certain comics for the characters, I wouldn't doubt that other comic companies could snap up name creators, and their loyal readers, with ease. New companies might even spring into place to fill the gap. Comic companies come and go. Even in their heyday, Marvel wasn't making the numbers of Harvey or Dell comics. Both those companies had comic publishing arms that were simply small components of their entire structure, and both cancelled their comics when the going got tough, while still maintaining the liscencing that was the result of their comics in the first place.

Comics as an artform will always be around. The comic industry is not direct market comic books alone. Nickelodeon magazine publishes comic specials that have a circulation of nearly a million copies. In the bookstore I worked at, Jimmy Corrigan sold well over two dozen copies. That doesn't sound so great, but in comparison to selling absolutely none of our Marvel trades, it really isn't so bad. And both pale in comparison to the numbers Calvin and Hobbes, Get Fuzzy and especially Garfield (shudder) were selling. Then there's comics from overseas, editorial cartoons, newspaper comic strips, online comics, mini-comics, etc.

Most cartoonists don't get into it for the money. Many of them will still probably make comics, even if they can't make a living at it. I know I would be completely happy reading mini-comics the rest of my life. My interests in comics are diverse enough that the decline of the superhero comic won't affect my reading pleasure at all. And just to head off another stock answer at the pass, yes, there is a possibility that many of us wouldn't have gotten into comics without superheroes, but so what? There are people out there who didn't get into comics because there were no readily available (to pick a genre out of a hat) romance comics, or stopped reading comics because they grew out of Archie and couldn't find any humour comics suitable for their reading maturity.

What this thread seems to be about is the potential death of the direct market comic store and superhero comics. Not only is it unlikely that either event would take place, but both occurances, if they did happen, would barely have an effect on the entire comic industry or the comic artform. Though it would obviously be sad to see people lose their livelihoods, of course.

Lull, as others have pointed out, the idea that Barbelith has an anti-superhero bias is preposterous. If anything, it's the opposite. If you need proof, one look through this very thread (or just about any thread, for that matter) and it's emphasis on superheroes and indy comics to the exclusion of all other aspects of the medium should convince anyone. Before someone jumps down my throat, nothing wrong with that. Barbelith is what it is. But when I want to discuss any of the other aspects of the comic artform, Barbelith is the last place I go. When I want interesting conversations about superhero comics, this is usually the place.

Dave Philpott - The kind of ads you suggest are beyond the financial ability of Marvel Comics at this time, and probably forever. If anything, I imagine they consider the lack of succes in the free advertsing that is the lisencing of their characters for other media to be an indicator that the ads you're speaking of would probably not work.

Solitaire - Kenneth Smith. Shudder.

Flux - I read the Comics Journal, and have quite a stack of them. I pick and choose which issues I buy, depending on what they cover. Like my regular comics purchasing, the majority of my Comics Journal spending is spread out over their entire publishing history, so i might buy issue #126 and the latest issue at the same time.

Benjamin - You touch on something I promised to start a thread about ages ago, comics literacy. Short form, comics have moved me emotionally more than any other medium, including movies, literature and music. In no way do I consider comics to be superior, but I do think that there are differences between mediums that may inhibit the enjoyment of people who are not well versed in that medium. I realize that people can read comics, but I believe that constant exposure to a certain medium may allow someone to relate to that medium better than others. Most people have been raised with a deeper appreciation of other mediums than comics, for various reasons (cost, availablity, variety, etc.). I'm sure that an argument could be made that certain mediums (music, certainly) can even tap into a person in a way that is easier and more appealing than other mediums, with or without consistant exposure.

I love these discussions. Can't you tell?
 
 
NezZ the 2nd
22:58 / 11.07.03
actually what i find most interesting is lull's assertion "what i am trying to say is that without the superhero books, the indie books you herald would not be around,"

ok to reiterate my point - all i was saying was i feel that to allow good indie books to actually exist, they need to be sold in shops funded mainly by superhero books. i understand the frustration that people feel when joe public think comics are all superheroes. it pisses me off even more when they refer to them as "cartoons".

my point is companies like fantagraphics, drawn and quarterly and oni manage to supply good indie comics because they do not need to worry about superhero comics, because dc and marvel etc are providing them. it is just marketing at the end of the day. you are the market for indies, someone else is for superheroes. god i am shit at arguing :P

but even so no one here wants comics to die off no matter what the genre, we should feel united at least because we all share a love for a medium that sadly and much pointed out - moving to extinction.
 
 
bio k9
23:11 / 11.07.03
Comics will die five minutes after rock and roll does.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:17 / 11.07.03
Lull, but what about the very realistic possibility that those publishers may not actually need superhero-dominated comics shops, and that the popular wisdom (which is typically backward in the comics industry) that they are reliant on those stores doesn't turn out to be true?

I think it is a very good possibility that if those stores weren't there, the publishers may actually work a little harder at getting their books into other stores, and that a great level of success may be found elsewhere.
 
 
NezZ the 2nd
09:48 / 12.07.03
Ok I stand corrected, after carefully re-reading this thread I see the distinction now. Although most of you like superhero comics (the better ones) you feel, like I do, that they represent comics badly.

I don't think Marvel will close their publishing arm. I have only been a marvel fan for the last two years or so, mainly because their material has got better. But I still flick through previews thinking 50% of what they publish is fanboy crap. But this is the same argument that keeps going around and around .....

And I like the reference to PAGE 45 - the best comic shop I have ever been to - if only every comic shop had the intelligence to promote style in comics, plus the staff are very helpful, polite and the newsletter is great. Sorry to sing their praises but they deserve it.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
14:16 / 12.07.03
"It doesn't matter if your lead characters were featured in a film that grossed over $200 million at the box office. It. Doesn't. Matter."

But this is what got Fantagraphics in the hole they're in now. By overprinting the Ghost World book, anticipating that so many viewers of the hit movie would buy it, they lost big time. It was a gamble that Marvel or DC could take, but not Fantagraphics.

Also, if people who are committed to going to a comic shop every single Wednesday to buy comics no matter what do NOT represent the market... who does? People who buy tons of CDs don't represent the music industry market, people who go to the movies every weekend don't represent the movie industry market?? That makes no sense.

Fans and collectors who go to the shop every week ARE a key component to the comic book market. Also, the comic shop is a place where they can suggestions from other buyers. If you like New X-Men, you might like Invisibles, or Jimmy Corrigan, or Leviathan. OR if you like Invisibles, you might like New X-Men. This is a place where connections are made.

Also, Comic Book conventions created a venue where people from all over the globe can get together, see previews of new stuff, meet creators and buy comics occassionally. This is also a key to the industry. Indy cons like MOCCA are VERY important to the independent industry. At MOCCA, indy creators are able to talk to each other, compare notes, and sell their wares without the middle man for a change.

Perhaps you're talking about something else, Flux. You seem very confused.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
14:20 / 12.07.03
If I may, Lull: "it pisses me off even more when they refer to them as "cartoons"."

It pisses me off even more to see them referred to as graphic novels. Why oh why is the LXG being referred to as a graphic novel? When that format was popularized by Marvel in the 80's, it was used in a way that made sense, telling a larger scale story, or in some cases taking an actual shock-shock novel and using sequentual art to retell it.

Comic fans/readers are a very sensitive lot. That's why there should be an understanding sport we could all take part in, like an embarassingversion of rugby. It'd work off a lot of steam.
 
 
bio k9
20:19 / 12.07.03
Fantagraphics troubles were compounded by the fact that one of their distributers declared bankruptcy and stiffed them to the tune of 70 grand. Overprinting Ghost World wasn't the only problem.

People who are willing to buy new comics every single Wednesday represent the current market, not the potential market. People that buy new albums on the Tuesday they are released do not represent the entire music purchasing public. If last weeks records were bagged, boarded, placed in cardboard boxes and stashed in dark, milk smelling havens of acne ridden wannabe wizards people would have quit buying The White Album years ago.

I think comic book conventions are neat but could you please explain why they are "key to the industry" in an age when products and information can be passed around as quickly as they are today?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
00:23 / 14.07.03
Sure.

Cons are a place, much like Shops, where buyers, fans, etc can mingle, buy stuff, and get suggestions on other titles/products. Also, it's a place where they can see the writers and artists who create the comics they like, provide feedback, sexual favors, etc.

Granted, this can happen on-line, as you pointed out, but there is an added value to having an actual experience in person with these things. I love buying comics on-line, but a lot of the time, I'll be at a con, and the seller will strike up a conversation, leading me to investigate other titles.

This type of relationship between dealer/seller with buyer/fan and artist really comes to a head a convention. So yeah, in my opinion, it is a key to the industry, and one that Marvel plays a large part in.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:22 / 14.07.03
I seem confused? Riiiiiight.

There's not much to improve upon Bio K-9's point: nearly all of the benefits of the comic book convention that you mention have been rendered pretty much obsolete by the internet. Really, the only major virtue of the comic book convention now is that is provides one revenue stream for freelancers, who get paid to appear at the convention and can sell original art and other personalized products in the hall. It's probably still a pretty decent place to network if you're trying to break into the industry.

I'm sure it's nice for you to chat with a lot of like-minded people in person, that's not really the issue. It's that you can't seem to fathom that these conventions have nothing to do with anything but a highly devoted, affluent core fanbase. It's no more the "key to the industry" than a stamp convention would be a crucial element of the postal service.
 
 
Hieronymus
01:29 / 14.07.03
bio and Flux's points are valid. The question is how to get comics out of the milk-smelly fatbeard caves and into some kind of mainstream notice? Or more importantly, are comics important enough to the mainstream reading audience that enough widespread notice would bring in the new readers? $2.50 is an expensive price for just one piece of a serial story. Something very few people can get into.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
10:53 / 14.07.03
"It's no more the "key to the industry" than a stamp convention would be a crucial element of the postal service."

The analogy doesn't fit no matter how hard you throw it. Stamp collectors do, however need stamp shops and conventions.

Also, I have pointed out that independent artists do use the cons to break into the industry as well as get into the big publishers. When asked by pros 'how do you get into the industry' the answer is to network, hence cons, hence key to the industry unless you're OK with Devin Grayson and Chuck Dixon stories.

Also, the points that you have brought up are hardly valid for the market that exists, which can be illustrated thus:

Comics are read by an increasingly smaller audience every year as the readership is lost to other forms of entertainment or simply growing out of it, making the market smaller all of the time. This market is sought at stores solely for comics, collectibles, toys and cards, shelves in bookshops, and headshops as well as record stores.

In that shrinking market is another even smaller subset of comics that are independent. These comics are not funded by large corporations, do not share in the exposure that these corporations can give them, and are falling into bankruptcy in some cases (not really a point against them as most to all businesses are in dire financial straits nowadays). One of those large parts of the industry, Marvel, is theoretically leaving the market. Marvel has recently enjoyed a high amount of press with movies based on their comics created 40 odd years ago.

If Marvel were to stop publishing comics, the industry would change.

Now looking at a 'theoretical' market does not make a lot of sense to me, and also does not address the possibility of the market trying to get by without a major player, being Marvel, that is a big success currently do it's marketing and strong business sense (printing only comics that are ordered and thereby saving loads of money). Also, independents have been experiencing harder and harder times recently. While they do enjoy a place in bookshops, those shelves are commonly shared by Marvel and DC books as well. The comic book, while certainly an art form in itself, is still not completely accepted as a narrative format that does not equal superheroes.

Why not deal with the situation that is at hand? Comics are supported by comics that have been purchased nearly non-stop since the 60's. To suggest that the industry can survive without the larger components of its body is to simply state the speaker's preferece in the medium, not the fact of its success.

After the introduction of comic conventions and fanzines, the industry experienced growth and a fan acceptance. Cons are a place where readers can be introduced to new comics, ideas, artists, etc. While this ability exists online, people actually being placed into a real environment is a very different thing to having access to static websites that offer opinions and sales.

The fan base consists of people who love comics. If people who love the industry do not keep it afloat, I have no idea who you could be suggesting does.
 
  

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