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Look Kids, No Comics!

 
  

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Mister Six, whom all the girls
14:35 / 08.07.03
In the following excerpt posted on Rich's CBR column: linky , a hidden sources named Felicia makes some pretty bold statements about the future of Marvel. To cut and paste a bit:

"Bill Jemas' view of comics is not that of an established, respectable means capable of attaining it's deserved public acclaim. He has attempted, through past efforts, to help 'validate comics' by approximating them as close as possible to the other magazines in newsstands. Larger in size, change of paper quality and density and even the art, in his eyes, should be produced in a photoshopesque manner in order to achieve an illusion with the ultimate means of mimicking the look and feel of 'real skin' portrayed in periodicals such as Maxim and Stuff.

""The problem with this, of course, is that comics are not these magazines. They have, in the opinion of many, been the product of the labor of long lineage of intellects who breathed the life and culture already existing in the flame that we know today. To try and change or rearrange the configuration of this flame into some kind of money-making based scheme for simple marketing appeal and perspective, a very shallow and skewed one at that, is to say or to the least hint that the geniuses that laid out the foundation of comics, men and women of legend, were simply the gears and cogs not necessarily consequential to the product which resulted in the medium and base market that supports it today.

"Marvel's total base income from their publishing division accounts for an average or nearly 5% of total current income. This means that they are currently making most of their money from things such as licensing and movies. This also means that, comics, the very lifeblood of the previous two, from a financial perspective is nearly irrelevant for the economic potency the company currently possesses. Which is the reason why Marvel's owners, Isaac Perlmutter and/or Avi Arad, are looking into either: A) Shutting the publishing branch down completely and simply license property out or B) Selling the company, all of it's intellectual property to either Universal or Sony.

""Bill Jemas has subscribed to completely unconventional ideals, a religion if you will, of how to go about cementing the future of Marvel. In order to cut down on what, in his opinion, may be unnecessary expenses of both time and money and in an effort to admonish risk venture in individual titles, Bill is planning to slowly, but surely, replace every highly paid, respected creator, every talent that may be a 'headache' or may not hand in work on a timely fashion, but is still popular, every writer, artist or employee that may perhaps be a burden more than a blessing, financially or any other way, with an individual who will not be a required element or investment in their future and will have no interest in the full market potential of intellectual property. In other words, he wants people that will sell out cheap or at least people that they can milk for ideas.... and they are finding them. "

Big old etc. The article is huge and goes into many crannies of rumor without really substantiating any facts and urging readers to look into the matter. BUT one bit resounded for me. The Epic line could be an easy out for Marvel to save money... but to replace expensive comics written by talent (subjective ofcourse) with cheap comics written by unknowns is a crazy idea... to you or me.

I know I was shocked to learn that my boss had no idea what email was how it worked, etc and even moreso when I left my job after she pitched it to me as everything I hated to do for less money... My point being that idiots drive the car a lot of the time. Maybe they ARE thinking along the lines Felicia draws here.

I dunno.

Discuss.
 
 
diz
15:09 / 08.07.03
Marvel's total base income from their publishing division accounts for an average or nearly 5% of total current income. This means that they are currently making most of their money from things such as licensing and movies.

this part is the key here. Marvel makes its money nowadays from owning characters. comics are not much more than a vehicle for promoting those characters and for maintaining copyright. Marvel doesn't need comics to survive beyond that, and, to a certain extent, they may be a liability. from a business standpoint, radically changing or even killing off its comics business entirely is probably a good decision.

the fact that you and i would be sorry to see them go is secondary to that. i just hope we get to a good breaking point with NXM and X-Statix before GM and Milligan get the boot.
 
 
sleazenation
15:26 / 08.07.03
unfortunately Felicity's anaylsis goes beyond just the fate of Marvel to the health of the whole industry, based on the idea that comic shops will not be able to remain in business if half their inventory disappears... quite how accurate her observations are is an open question. During the early ninties I stopped reading Marvel comics completely as did many other and while the industry was hardly in a state of full health, it survived. Having said that there were people who were still buying Marvel comics. If Marvel stopped publishing entirely it remains to be seen if many fans would simply stop buying comics completely or switch over to other publishers...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:55 / 08.07.03
Don't you think they'll end up subcontracting the creative/production work, as they already do the coloring/lettering? That wouldn't be a bad solution. They get rid of their overhead while maintaining copyright and keeping editorial interference to a minimum. It wouldn't be (as) exploitive if the creators were working for another company, rather than the Epic-style "creator contracts". In fact, if I were a Marvel editor right now, this is what I'd be trying to set up.
 
 
diz
16:02 / 08.07.03
well, presuming her predictions are accurate, we can't do anything about this. if comic readers had enough marketing muscle for any kind of petition or collective action on our part to make a difference, we'd account for more than 5% of their bottom line. the comics audience is pretty insignificant overall.

if there's no mass market for comics, then there's no mass market for comics, and comics as a medium are already living on borrowed time. we have little or no control over when the other shoe's going to drop here.

here's where Felicia totally misses the point:

"If you went to see the next "X-men" or "Hulk" movie regardless of the decision to close publishing, then perhaps there is really no need for the publishing arm, and comics as we know it are doomed."

the point is that it doesn't much matter whether or not comics fans went to see X2. the point is that lots and lots and lots of non-comic readers did. the box office numbers reflect an audience so large that people who read the X-comics regularly are just a drop in the bucket. Marvel is now working with mass audiences, and comics are sort of a niche market attached to the rump of that market. we can "spread the word" as much as we want and circulate petitions to save our favorites, but statistically we're insignificant.

all that remains for us, really, is to enjoy the ride for as long as it will last, and maybe support a market for things like trades and graphic novels.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:55 / 08.07.03
I'm in no mood to get into this "sky is falling" nonsense today. We'll see what happens. I think it might be a really great thing for Marvel to be owned by Sony or Universal - there could be a chance that actual intelligent businesspeople may be placed in charge of Marvel, which could be a very, very good thing.

A market without Marvel comics would be sad, and it would cause a lot of problems, but I think that it would ultimately lead to very good things. I doubt that it would really cause companies like Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly (and other like-minded smaller indies) to go out of business, since mainstream comics stores have never really supported them much to begin with. They will probably survive through alternative means, as they always have.

A comics industry that isn't dominated by Marvel, DC, and superhero comics could eventually be the best thing that could ever happen to comics as a whole.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:00 / 08.07.03
I'm reminded of something Flyboy wrote a long time ago. He was fantasizing about a world in which every comic book shop was burned to the ground, and the industry was forced to start all over again from scratch, and how that could be a very positive scenario. I think that's what could happen here, in a way. I
 
 
Sebastian
17:41 / 08.07.03
No. Its not movies they are after. They are after toys. Remember? Marvel is a toy company. I don't think they would even need movies to survive with this type of toys.

 
 
sleazenation
18:50 / 08.07.03
Well quite, as Flux alludes to one of the most significant things about a possible end to Marvel (and we prolly are getting way ahead of ourselves here in terms of speculation) is the question of distribution.

Now the various comic publishers are nowhere near as reliant on the direct market of comic shops as they once were, book shops are increasingly proving themselves as a viable and invaluable alternative means of distribution, but they only work for graphic novels. the death of the 32 page comic format might also not be such a bad thing, but the end of regular revenue stream it brings could concievably hurt some of the publishers that are more reliant on 32 page comics... This would prolly exclude fantagraphics and topshelf and their ilk from much of the fall out but yeah its worth considering...
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
11:39 / 09.07.03
Yes, plus it means the death of the local comic shop, which is not a good thing. And this includes shops unlike what Warren Ellis spits at for selling action figures and Pokemon. This includes the shops that got many into buying comics in the first place. Like my local that plays the Au Pairs and sells tons of minis and Indies and gives great advice on what's cool, right in the middle of overpriced Harvard Square. It would close without Marvel, as would most shops.

THAT would be a huge shame. I'd hate to see those shop owners penniless (well... to be honest I'd like to see one or two go penniless, but that's just spite at them being tightwads and having dollar bins instead of quarter bins for ROM issues).

Marvel going down the tubes and the theoretical sole distribution of comics as trades through Barnes and Nobel Shops is not a good vision to me (Although they currently have softcover Marvel Masterworks Trades for $13). Every time I go into one of those places I want to bite my balls off. The books are sloppily arranged and beaten up. No one cares in Massachusetts about graphic novels in book shops. I can't help but roll my eyes every time I see someone site them as a viable option for distribution. I also make it my personal mission to find any comics wherever I go and... comic shops are IT, really. Book stores are dead, only carrying what sells (which is usually not what I want) and local 5 and dime stores carry nothing at all. The spinner rack is a thing of the past, it seems.

See, I think what we're expecting trades of all our favorite titles, but what we're looking at are CrossGen, Ultimate Spider-Man and Superman trades. Just my observation based on what I see bookshops carrying. It's not like everything will be available in trade paperback. The death of the local comic shop will be the death of certain comics as well. It'll be every nightmare of 1989 if you ask me. If they're pushing Ult Spidey, Ult DD and Elektra, and Marville now, just think of what they'll throw at the market if they only want to sell in bookshops! Shudder shudder.

I was involved in an indy once that was overjoyed to be getting into bookshops. When it finally came out, it was badly laid out, didn't appeal to the clientelle of a bookstore, and was lost in a stack of a anime and Krazy Katz books with the occasional JLA trade. Not exactly the way you'd want your work to be displayed. Despite an overjoyed forward by Warren Ellis, it can be found in every quarter bin now... which is frankly where it belongs.

Bookshop distribution is not a viable solution, I think. Also, I doubt getting indy comics into bookshops is a good thing either. But I'd be very interested in a publisher's input here.
 
 
sleazenation
12:01 / 09.07.03
Oddly enough When speaking at the ICA last week Joe Sacco mentioned that his book Palestine died on its arse when it was seriealised and only started generating sales when it was collected and sold through book shops (as well as comic shops) So great was the difference in terms of costs for relatively few sales Sacco opted to release safe area Gorazde as a collection without pre-serializing it...
 
 
diz
12:17 / 09.07.03
i keep thinking that maybe a comics magazine format, like Deadline or something, might work. each magazine would have the serialized adventures of the X-Men and the FF or whoever, with a few articles and music and movie reviews or something in between...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:09 / 09.07.03
Sacco's experience is hardly unique - for the more serious, literary comics that are meant for older audiences, it is much easier to market them as books than as periodicals. This is just simple common sense - serious readers are accustomed to books, this is what they know. Periodicals aren't necessarily meant to be taken seriously as literature, you know?

This story from this week's Village Voice about Fantagraphics is well worth reading, on a tangental note.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:28 / 09.07.03
Aside from the obvious convenience, I am not quite sure if I understand why anyone would seriously lament the passing of the current paradigm of comic book stores. Those stores are holding the industry back more than anything else.

Comic book companies need to decide what it is they are publishing - are they making cheap, disposable magazines, or are they making books? Once they make the decision, they can come up with a better business model. They can try to compete on newstands as magazine digests, or they can go to book stores as real books, like Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly.

I've seen a lot of beaten-up comics at book stores, but strangely enough, they are only ever the superhero books. People just read them in the store and don't bother purchasing them. Very telling. The copies of the Clowes, Ware, and Tomine books are often in good shape and on display with prose books near the front of the shop. Hmmm. Let's figure this one out, shall we?

I'm not sure if much of anyone in the book store market is really willing to read Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra as anything other than frivolous disposable entertainment (which is fine, and surely what it was meant to be), much less spend over $10 to own it, you know what I mean? My point is, this should not be a book. This should have been a $5 glossy magazine instead.

I think that mainstream comics companies, especially Marvel, are going after the bookstore market in a horribly misguided way - much of what they are pushing on that market is low quality crap aimed at the comic shop kids who still buy monthlies, who aren't the same audience who should be courted at Barnes & Noble, et al. If you're going to sell these things as books, that is exactly what they should be, unless you are making it clear that what you are buying is part of an anthology.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
17:25 / 09.07.03
VERY amused that the Village Voice article uses the success of GhostWorld and From Hell movies as signs of success for indy comics that they 'aren't for kiddies.'

Please.

It's the same story of Daredevil being a boon to the industry.

Also, to quote from the article, this is hilarious "the Eros imprint pulled them out of their hole within a year and remains a profitable part of the company."

Two words, HULK PORN.

And this quote "many comics stores shun alt-comix in favor of the bread-and-butter superhero stuff." is typical banter from the Comics Journal. I dunno.

I can only speak from experience. I'm a huge comics fan and make it a priority to find out where comics are sold whenever I travel. When in comic shops, I've found prominently displayed Indies as well as mainstream (in OK, NC, NY, CA, VT and MA... even in the UK).

On a Comics Journal sidebar-
They hate most comics that are super hero related, even to the point in an all-women issue where the reviewer at a comic con walked into a room where Marie Severin (one of the earliest succesful women artists in comics), John Romita and others were talking and she just walked out because it was 'super hero stuff.' Then she just gave shout-outs to indy personalities they liked... without even telling the reader who these people were, what they did, etc.

They go out of their way to shit on non-alt comics.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:34 / 09.07.03
Oh fuck off. That's kinda like complaining about NPR and Pacifica radio stations being too liberal while the majority of the airwaves are either apolitical or far right wing.

The Comics Journal caters to a different audience, an audience that mostly does not care for superhero comics at all. It is an intensely critical publication, and as that Voice article notes, they have a perverse tendency to tear apart comics put out by the same company that publishes the magazine. They pull no punches. This is a good thing. Gary Groth is absolutely correct - standards in comics need to be higher, and this 'rah rah all comics are good comics, let's go team comics!' bullshit is a very stifling thing.

I see no reason why The Comics Journal should give superhero comics special treatment just because of the fact that they are comic books. If their critics hate something, they should be able to say so without having to worry about people's hurt feelings. This is about serious critique and journalistic intergrity, not some ridiculous Warren Ellis-style Up With Comics pep rally. If this artform is to be taken seriously, then publications like The Comics Journal are necessary not just for high critical standards, but also to give voice to a significant audience of people who either dislike or have no interest in superhero comic books.

If you are seriously offended by the fact that a lot of people dislike your superhero comics, then I just feel a great swell of pity for you.

Comics aren't just for superheroes and their fans. Please get that through your head. It is perfectly reasonable for people to like comics and deeply hate superheroes.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:49 / 09.07.03
"many comics stores shun alt-comix in favor of the bread-and-butter superhero stuff."

It's also very cute that you interpret something that is a statistical fact as being indicative of some kind of insidious bias. Yeah, yeah - a lot of comics shops have been carrying some indie comics (though I'm really not sure if Oni and stuff like that is a good example...), but if you go into 99.9% of all comics shops, the emphasis is clearly placed on superhero comics. Think about the ratio of superhero/scifi/fantasy/crime comics to non-superhero/scifi/fantasy/crime comics in any given store. Think about how the stores are decorated. Think about the non-comics products stocked by most comics shops. This may come as a surprise, but most people won't step into these stores, and even more of them are unwilling to wade through an ocean of spandex to get to a "alt" comic that may interest them. In many cases, they may as well not carry the stuff at all, since in most stores it is so clearly an afterthought.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
19:11 / 09.07.03
um... don't tell me to 'fuck off.'

That's very uncool, and hardly appropriate. Y'know, on second thought, I'll leave you to rant, You're a moderator, yet feel it is appropriate to attack me personally when you know nothing about me. And acting like a child when I was careful to note that all I was saying was my opinion and yes, this is about Marvel that publishes mainly super hero stories in a market that is mainly about super heroes. I think you have a problem with that.

This personal attack method is OK at barbelith? I thought this was a place where fans of all media could post on a common ground and find solidarity. I'm wrong? Yes?

Fine.

I won't be posting here again.

This shit I do not need.

ta ta
 
 
_Boboss
20:29 / 09.07.03
oh come on its hardly barbelith if flux isn't being a total prick. have a look in the photo thread in conversation, you'll end up feeling sorry for him more than anything
 
 
Hieronymus
20:40 / 09.07.03
Christ, Flux.
 
 
bio k9
20:44 / 09.07.03
Blah blah blah.

Regardless of yr feelings about Flux and/or his comments here and in other forums, the fact that hes a moderator is irrelevant.

Flux=Barbelith? No.
Flux=One Persons Opinion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:27 / 09.07.03
If you cannot discuss comics, and would rather discuss people, there is a whole big Conversation in which to do it. If you would like to discuss comics, welcome to the Comics forum.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:18 / 10.07.03
Wait, where exactly is the personal attack? I was 100% on-topic. Is it a problem with swearing? Jesus.

I'm not sure if I see how challenging some very questionable comments ammounts to a "personal attack" - I realize that I was not exactly being kind to you, but I wasn't quite "attacking" you, either. As in real life, I feel no great need to be best buddies with everyone posting on this board, so I'm not always willing to pull punches when I'm responding to comments that I find to be highly dubious.

Can we please resume discussion of the topic at hand?
 
 
_Boboss
07:06 / 10.07.03
yeh but good people keep leaving and not coming back cos yr so damn rude all the time. is that yr idea of being a good moderator, making it unbearable for other people to post here?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:10 / 10.07.03
Khaologan23ris: not only is that the single most hypocritical thing I've ever seen here, it's also still off-topic. You have a problem with Flux, you take it up with him via PM. You have a problem with him as Moderator, you start a thread in Policy.

I think his comments were entirely on-topic, impersonal and correct, by the way.
 
 
_Boboss
09:33 / 10.07.03
heh heh heh it works
 
 
sleazenation
10:00 / 10.07.03
...and before we get to a point where this once interesting thread is drowned in off-topic petty squabbling, vitriol and internecine warfare can we get back to the topic?

I'm not sure where the best place for the airing of personal grevances is, but i don't think it belongs here...
 
 
finger n' thump
10:38 / 10.07.03
flyboy and flux remind me of bush and blair with their 'special' relationship.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:01 / 10.07.03
Is there any danger of anyone getting this back on topic, or are we all just going to slag each other off now. Ooh, please, let's do that. For a fucking change...
 
 
sleazenation
11:43 / 10.07.03
so to pick up on something things -

How useful really is the Comics Journal, given its natural bias for coverage (posative and negative) of Fantagraphics product and its emotive sometimes combatitive approach to review and analyisis?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
14:05 / 10.07.03
Re: TCJ

The same purpose a magazine like Mass Appeal or Giant Robot serves, a somewhat limited worldview but still meaningful to its readers. Any suggestion that every comics magazine should be respectful to all iterations of the medium only contributes to the kind of attitude that finds Jimmy Corrigan on the same shelf as JLA: World Without Grown-Ups. TCJ reminds me of Vice in some ways. They're inflammatory on single minded but they appeal to their reader base, which is really all a magazine is really beholden to do. (Beheld? Behelden? Supposed?)

There should be more devisive and insular comics publications. It could only serve to strengthen the sense of differentiation and possibility in the medium. Anything that parrots that "Team Comics" vibe will only contribute to less innvoation and a lax attitude towards personal achievement and accomplishment, which is really the only thing that ever will save comics anyway. Personal achievement and accomplishment, I mean.

On an unrelated note, it's always good to see the word "internecine" in print.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:51 / 10.07.03
Benjamin is right.

I can't understand why the only major non-superhero comics publication is slagged off for being anti-mainstream when the overwhelming majority of comics publications (especially Wizard, Newsarama, and The Pulse) are intensely pro-superhero, and it is almost a miracle when any of them even bothers to mention most anything that the Comics Journal would normally cover. Should there be no alternative voice? Are they blind to the anti-indie bias in the superhero publications and stores?
 
 
The Natural Way
17:33 / 10.07.03
Whilst I broadly agree with you about CJ, Flux, I'm not sure I feel comfortable nodding my head along with prejudice. I mean, the idea that superhero comics are bad simply because they're superhero comics is a little bit...mmm...stupid, no?

So my DP books are a bit shit then, are they?

I expect a so-called intelligent mag to offer, well, intelligent critique.
 
 
moriarty
17:43 / 10.07.03
I think I'm going to have to save my previous entries and just cut and paste.

TCJ doesn't hate superheroes. Particular reviewers may hate them, but the magazine itself publishes a wide range of critiques. They have reviewed many superhero comics favourably, including Doom Patrol.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:54 / 10.07.03
I don't think the bias/prejudice of the Comics Journal is necessarily a good thing, but a) it's an honest, valid, and perfectly justifiable expression of the critics/writer's tastes and b) it is intended for an audience that probably shares the same feelings about the subject matter, and very seldom see their views in print anywhere else in the comics press. There are very few alternatives in the comics press - often, it really just comes down to Wizard vs. The Comics Journal, which is a pretty extreme binary opposition.

If you read Wizard, you definitely can get a "indie sux" vibe. Why shouldn't The Comics Journal counter that?
 
  

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