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illmatic
08:36 / 23.06.03
It being a Monday morning, I thought I’d start a thread about the activity which eats up most of our time, especially since a) I suspect half the content of Barbelith is written surreptiously from offices and b) it’s that time of year when all you shiftless students have to face up to the “real world”.

So what’s your attitude toward it? Indifference, a necessary evil, source of great satisfaction? Something that you know will all come right one day (just like meeting your dream partner)? Something you’ll sort out in a couple of years?

Does anyone agree with Bob Black when he asserts “that work as the most fundamental negation of freedom is an institution that must be addressed, and overcome, by anyone pretending to have an interest in liberty”? .

Broadening the discussion slightly has anyone got any thoughts on why we work the way we do? Can you see the economic purpose in what you do, and does this add any satisfaction to your job?

I sometimes wonder also our inflated expectations make us unhappy – perhaps the satisfying job is simply a chimera, and if we’d been told from the off that life consisted of meaningless drudgery we’d all be a lot happy, have stopped striving, or be fighting in the revolution? I certainly think we’ve different aspirations and expectations from our parents anyhow. Well, I know I have, can't speak for the rest of you. Any thoughts?
 
 
illmatic
08:52 / 23.06.03
Essay I was trying to post to is here:
http://norlonto.net/index.cfm/action/articles.view/itemID/75

Can't figure out what I've done wrong with the HTML. Oh well.
 
 
Bear
08:57 / 23.06.03
A necessary evil for me, always has been doesn't bother me that much just something that has to be done of course I'd rather be watching Gabby and Terry but life's hard sometimes.

I've never had a job that I love I wonder what that would be like sometimes but I can't think of a job that I would love to do - I'm not very career minded though just chug along do my bit and get my money.

I could never understand work when I was a kid, trying to work out why all the adults didn't just go to the park instead I probably still think like that deep down - probably why I'll never be in charge of the planet.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
09:35 / 23.06.03
Uh, I don't have a job. And I'm not a student. I guess I'm just a bum.
 
 
Spaniel
09:48 / 23.06.03
!!THREE WEEKS OFF!!

Could it get more exciting? I don't think so.

Trying to use this time to come up with a better life plan - something that gets me the hell away from office environments.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:55 / 23.06.03
I've just finished work for a week!

But yeah, I resent having to work to no visible end (other than to get money to pay to live)- not actually producing anything tangible, you get very little work satisfaction, which makes the whole thing seem rather abstract considering you have to devote so much time to it!
I'm lucky- I actually enjoy my job, and like my colleagues. But I still don't really get much sense of having actually achieved anything- it's like, it's nice getting paid (of course), it's nice hanging out with these people every night, but it would be so much nicer if I didn't have to be busy while I was spending time with them. Does that make sense?

I found the time when I was unemployed (for about 4 years) the most productive time of my life- I was writing constantly, getting a 'zine out on a regular basis, making music- now sleeping is my favourite hobby. And I don't get as much time to read, either.
 
 
Unencumbered
10:03 / 23.06.03
I enjoy my job and get a certain sense of satisfaction out of it but, not surprisingly, I'd still give it up if I had the opportunity to do so. I've always fancied making something beautiful for a living but I'm not very artistic or creative, which rather puts the kybosh on that. I keep hoping that I'll suddenly find something I'm really good at, but no luck so far.
 
 
Saveloy
10:11 / 23.06.03
I am entirely with Bob Black. I love activity, I enjoy being useful and I derive almost as much pleasure from making things as I do from sitting around staring out the window, but I detest work. I f***ing loathe it. I want to kick work's bloody face in. I want to grab it by the throat, wrestle it to the ground and smash its head to pieces, then pummel the corpse until I lack the strength to make a fist. In fact, I hate work so much that I would happily make a job out of it - for a few weeks anyway - pummeling and kicking the corpse from 9 till 5 in the evening (with an hour for lunch) for 4.25 an hour.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
10:12 / 23.06.03
Tempting little fantasy he describes in his article: the ludic revolution. It would be easy to pick holes in his argument but I think he concedes that.

I have always worked, not having been gifted with rich parents or a lottery win. I've experienced the full range from brainless, monotonous, can't-bear-the-thought-of-another-day-of-it jobs to some (a few, granted) that were so much fun I would bounce out of bed and hare in there every morning. I couldn't afford not to work but I was able to choose to do a less well paid job because it would be more enjoyable, or at least less of a grind.

I'm not entirely sure that I do envy the workless. I would love to be able to decide whether and when to get up out of bed or not but I think, given my personality, I would be miserable when frittered-away day began to succeed fairly pointless day. And there would be no dosh to fuel any displacement activities.

But perhaps I am simply a product of my early training at the hands of two working class Scots steeped in a protestant work ethic. The actual "work" I have done for the past 25 years plus has usually been of the socially useful kind and generally not the sort of thing most people would volunteer for. If I'd been rich enough not to have to work I doubt I'd have been philanthropic enough to have been of use to society in that, or other, ways.

I'd have been like many spoilt little rich kids I've nursed who flushed their lives down the toilet because they could always do whatever seemed like the most fun at the time and that was usually excessive pleasure seeking with nothing much to ground them in reality. That's what your teenage years are for but you need to wise up and get real at some point. Even the Epicureans didn't want to partayyy all day. They proposed a balance.

However, have to say that your working conditions can be considerably improved by climbing the ladder a bit and thereby gaining some more autonomy and freedom to manoeuvre. Technically you may have more responsibility to handle or more demanding work to do but you don't suffer the disempowerment of being bossed about all the time.

I wouldn't want to go back to "clocking" on and off and begging for time off when I needed it. The research shows it's not the highly paid power dressers in their swanky offices who suffer the highest rates of heart disease, stress, depression and alcoholism but the workers on the shop floor, just doing what they're told.

Ask me again tomorrow and I might make an entirely contrary agrument though. I am curiously pro-work for a Monday. Perhaps because I have been skiving all morning.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:14 / 23.06.03
I think it would be really great to finish a night (or day)'s work with the feeling of "Yeah! I'm really proud of that", rather than "that wasn't too bad. I could probably handle coming back again in 14 hours' time", or "thank fuck that's over for a while". Unless I can get a job saving puppies or something, though, it's so not gonna happen.
 
 
Quantum
11:54 / 23.06.03
Work is evil. Work is devised by the devil to increase human misery. Especially office work. Although the working environment became markedly less misery evoking a few years ago when employers started giving their staff free internet access...

On the other hand being unemployed is fine for about six months until you get depressed, then it pretty much sucks and gets worse and more depressing day by day. The poverty doesn't help either. So what to do?

your working conditions can be considerably improved by climbing the ladder a bit Xoc
This is true. My extensive informal study of working environments has led me to conclude that;


The more you are promoted the less you do
The more you are promoted the more money you make
The more you are promoted the less you get bossed around
The more you are promoted the more autonomy you have


So it is worth putting a little effort into getting promoted, so you can then do less for more money. Of course the cost in self respect and dignity may be too high depending on where you work..


I used to work in employment, and the best way to get a job you like is to do what you like to do, put a load of effort into it, and then someone gives you a job in it. Get paid for your hobby, that's the key I reckon. Then you enjoy your job, and you have free time out of work that you would otherwise have spent on your hobby.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
12:49 / 23.06.03
‘Same thing day after day – tube – work – diner – work – tube – armchair – TV – sleep – tube – work – how much more can you take? – One in ten go mad – one in five cracks up’
infamous quote from the King Mob Echo.
 
 
illmatic
13:03 / 23.06.03
yeah, broadly I agree with you, Quants, but the problem with that, for me anyway, comes when your hobbies are a little bit esoteric or obscure. The things that I'm really passionate about I can't imagine getting paid for. The other thing is this tends to "posion the well" a bit and results in you hating your hobbies - ie. say if you love to write (as a lot of folks round here do) - well, writing corporate copy 9-5 might put you off putting pen to paper completely. Anyone who does this for a living care to comment?

As to the promotion thing, it's not true in my workplace at the moment. The next step up for me equals a lot more stress for not a lot more money - perhaps I'm not looking far enough up the tree, though.

Not as miserable as i might sound though. Actually in good spirits today, just bouncing a few ideas out.

Sav: I think people do love to be active, the idea that we'd all sit around drooling and defacating where we sit without an economic gun to our head is ridiculous. People naturally want to do things, be creative, I think. I've been on a couple of good scenes that grew out of being on the dole myself, before the all the loopholes got stiched up.

(Incidentially, the whole Chaos Magick thing in Leeds (where it kicked off) wouldn't have hapened without the alternative culture space there, which was largely funded by the DHSS. I doubt very much the gov't would smile about this though, peaying a bunch of weirdos to fuck anround with their heads and lot the overthrow of consensus reality, but it's exctly the sort of thing I want my tax dollar spent on .

More later.
 
 
Persephone
13:36 / 23.06.03
I've had it in my head for a while to write about work, but it's still all a mess. I have things that I do that I think of as work, my work, and then I have this job, which is also called work and which I was thinking about calling "werk" to keep it separate in my head. But I think I would just feel stupid doing that. It could be in the intonation, perhaps... uh, the point being that I do keep them separate. This isn't the only way to go about it, obviously. It does work for me, though. Seems to me that work is easier to bear, and the other work is really play. Although I have some other things that I think of as play, too.
 
 
rizla mission
13:40 / 23.06.03
I place myself in the same camp as Bob Black and Saveloy.

Fucking work. What's all that about?
 
 
Saveloy
14:33 / 23.06.03
illmatic:

"Sav: I think people do love to be active, the idea that we'd all sit around drooling and defacating where we sit without an economic gun to our head is ridiculous."

Not sure if you thought I was saying the opposite, so just to be clear, I entirely agree with you. Even if a lot of people did end up just sitting about all day, it couldn't be any worse than having them waste their lives on meaningless, soul-destroying labour.
 
 
illmatic
14:50 / 23.06.03
No, Sav, it wasn't you I had in mind - it was more the Daily Hate, "hang 'em and flog 'em, shiftless dolescum" attitude I was reacting against. Like surviving on the dole isn't work anyway.
 
 
Mr Messy
14:56 / 23.06.03
There are things about my job that I love. I know that I do good stuff on a personal level - which is great. Fulfils some kind of fucked up need within me anyway.

But it sucks big time too.
At work, I and my fellows are loathed by some other disciplines.
We are often misunderstood - just what do we do that is so great and mysterious in that room?
There are ridiculous expectations placed upon us, "This person has a terminal lymphoma. She is crying. Make her stop."
We rescue them, "Arrrgh there's a crazy person in my room, take them away." and then of course are resented for this.

Last week in pay talks, the service manager said, "Isn't what you do essentially just admin?"
Yes, we asked for a pay rise, and now have to justify our very existence. How fucked up is that?
It is a challenge to work in such an evironment and still care about the job.

More and more, I would love to be a lady of leisure. There is so much I want to do, and I never have enough time.

That's why I'm packing my napsack and fucking off for a whole year. Yippee!
 
 
Mr Messy
15:00 / 23.06.03
Oops.
Posting the same thing twice is a perfect example of how brain-addled work has me.
 
 
Punji Steak
15:23 / 23.06.03
Yeah, i'm fucking work off for a year too, and I'm really looking forward to it, particularly as the best I ever feel about a day's work is that wasn't too bad. I could probably handle coming back again in 14 hours' time as CM says above. And I work for a company that makes videogames...
 
 
Baz Auckland
15:31 / 23.06.03
I have a job I love, but it's too dependent on the weather to be able to rely on it full time... (playing the fiddle on the streets)

...so I'm in the magazine department of a nasty corporate bookstore. Which is alright, only because the management doesn't know how the department is run, and therefore leaves us alone.

The less management, the better the job most times. I had a friend at Starbucks in London who wasn't a supervisor because he was morally opposed to the idea of management, and therefore would not participate in it. I half agree, but I would like to be a manager, because I hate management so much, and would make a point of not managing....

Work for me is that thing that keeps me from doing productive things like learning Spanish, German and how to draw antique maps...

I've been increasingly tempted to get a job managing a Starbux or some evil retail thingie for a year, just for the salary. After a year, I would take the $20,000 left from their $30,000 salary and take off around the world for a long while...
 
 
Mono
15:35 / 23.06.03
I still need a job here (other than the once-in-a-while under the table cafe thingie) but it's summer and i guess that i really don't want onbe because if i did, i'd be looking for something. ho-hum.
 
 
pomegranate
15:57 / 23.06.03
i was just fixin' to start a thread entitled "how do you deal w/yr crappy job?" so we could discuss coping strategies. personally, i:
check out barbelith and a couple other boards
check out a bunch of websites like snopes.com, the smoking gun, etc.
two (dangerous) words: online shopping
e-mail people (not haikus, though)
when feeling particularly vehement while throwing papers away, i strongly rip them in half, needlessly
write, when feeling inspired
call my mom long-distance and chat for a few minutes
engage in meaningless prattle w/coworkers
doodle
stare off into space

so how do *you* cope?
 
 
gingerbop
21:16 / 23.06.03
Good lord, PM: When you leave your job, can i have it?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:26 / 23.06.03
Quantum:

The more you are promoted the less you do
The more you are promoted the more money you make
The more you are promoted the less you get bossed around
The more you are promoted the more autonomy you have


These are all true. I'm in a weird one at the moment- I've just been given a promotion which doesn't come into force until about September... added to which, they haven't yet told all the people who went for it whether they've got it or not. (3 of us have... I know who 2 of us are.)

Which means... I'm not getting paid any extra until September. But my boss can still get REALLY arsey with me if I'm a couple of minutes late because I'm supposed to be setting a good example. (yeah, fair enough, I shouldn't turn up late anyway... that's already part of my job description, but...) How can I set a good example to people who don't know I'm supposed to be setting one?
 
 
Twig the Wonder Kid
21:40 / 23.06.03
I'm with Guy Debord on this one.

Life would make so much more sense if we all had rich parents who would fund our swanning round Paris is black polo necks wingeing about how apathetic all these poor bastards who have families to feed are.

I put in three years of corporate cock sucking, until I was skilled enough to go freelance. I made a deal with Satan that has worked out well for both parties.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:46 / 23.06.03
it’s that time of year when all you shiftless students have to face up to the “real world”.

Hey, that's a bit...

... oh well, all right, I suppose you have a point.

I got terribly fed up with doing jobs I disliked (even when I was good at them - I am a data entry and proofreading whiz, but who wants to spend their life doing data entry and proofreading? The most mundane tasks). I decided to try to do something which was not only something that I'm good at, but something which is stimulating. If I succeed, this will make me luckier than, probably, 95% of the population (if not more).

However - the odds are, in the end, that I will not succeed. It is hard to find a profession which is interesting and easy to get on in. Often it is a case of striking lucky as much as hard work. So I'm currently in a state of considerable uncertainty and facing the prospect of a couple of months' mundane work before I find out one way or the other. This is terrifically frustrating... and, if it turns out that I can't carry on, I will feel like a huge failure. This is what comes of high hopes, I think - heavy falls.

I don't think I ever had huge expectations of what the world of work would be like when I graduated - in fact, all I wanted to do at that stage was to work in a second-hand bookshop, and I knew that that would involve poverty. The people who were really bothered about that already had plans to do law conversion courses, get pupillages, had been accepted by big consultancies, had applied to the fast-track Civil Service, and so on. I just wanted to see what would happen - and the answer was, a series of dull jobs where my tasks did not match my abilities, and I got increasingly irritable and began swearing at my computer...

I dunno, all this business about having a 'career portfolio' (i.e. having had to switch between numerous jobs because no sodding business treats its employees properly any more) - it just makes me terribly tired. The same sort of feeling as having to move house every single year.

Definitely born in the wrong century...
 
 
pomegranate
13:32 / 24.06.03
gingerbop, sure you can have my job when i leave. i'm pretty sure that i'm an exception to quantum's rule: if i got promoted i'd have *more* to do.
the thing is, is to be a receptionist. cos someone's got to. and you've always got to be there, in case someone calls or shows up. so even if you have no work to do, you have that. you'll never be downsized.
having said that, i do have work to do. sometimes. but it doesn't exactly matter when i do it, as long as it gets done...pretty soon. ish.
i know, i'm lucky to have this job. but my goal for my next one is to have one where i can pee whenever i want, without finding someone to answer the phone while i'm in the can.
having nothing to do can make the day go by quite slowly. so i like to come up w/little assignments for myself to research on the internet. like one day i learned all about subliminal advertising, and yesterday i looked up just how far i was from the mississippi river, and i'm also trying to find a breakdancing class. that's what it's all about.
 
 
Bear
13:43 / 24.06.03
Actually my job is pretty easy and I shouldn't be complaining I'm posting on Barbelith so it can't be that bad and I hear in some jobs you don't even have time to have a quick game of scrabble....

I think they probably pay me about right for the amount of work I do.

Unless I get a call from Vinnie Mac tomorrow I guess I'll just keep plodding along making DVD and beer money.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
14:32 / 24.06.03
HO yes, I hear ya, Mantis. Recpetion is so clearly the way forward. That or being a dominatrix - £300 an hour and you don't even have to shage your clients. You probably do need washable walls, though.

Having moved from an ultra-posh pretty well-paid reception job to a bog standard answer-the-phone-and-nothing-else one (and currently on Hour 8 1/2 of today's 11-hour day, working a double shift) I'm finding that I enjoy the opportunity I now have, on a less busy desk, to post endlessly on Barbelith and footle about with a couple of short stories I'm writing too. The only huge drawback is that there's no personal email on this bloody thing so I'm cut off from my hobby-jobs (acting and writing) for half the working day, whcih is not good. On the plus side I have a lot of time to learn lines and write (which is why I'm posting here, ahem).

I was a copywriter once and it sucked the will to live and to write from my living bones. Mind you, that was more a function of my boss than a job. If I had been allowed to get on with it in a room on my own I would've been fine, I bet, if a touch bored.

My problem, jobwise, is that I hate working in the same room as other people. I don't like chumming up with random workmates because I do not want or need them in my life, and with the kind of jobs I do, they're usually dull as ditchwater as people, unless they are also temping while they try to succeed in some other field. I also fear Big Brother, because I'm usually doing something I shouldn't be but I'm used to getting away with it.

My ideal job would be getting money for writing and/or acting - which I very occasionally do, but such a pittance that they really are little more than hobbies that pay for themselves.

Actually, I quite fancy being a student again. I could pay my way through the doctorate by moonlighting as a nightwatchman! (and off into the la la dreamworld she floats ...)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:51 / 24.06.03
oh god... what I wouldn't do for a vocation.
 
 
Quantum
14:55 / 24.06.03
Oh dear, Whisky Priestess is my long lost twin sister-
"I don't like chumming up with random workmates because I do not want or need them in my life, and with the kind of jobs I do, they're usually dull as ditchwater as people... I also fear Big Brother, because I'm usually doing something I shouldn't be but I'm used to getting away with it. My ideal job would be getting money for writing..."
I think she's a fictionsuit I didn't know I had ( or maybe I'm a suit and I don't know...?)

Maominstoat, you are in a bad sitch, you've got the worst of both worlds- the responsibility and hassle without the power or the money- screw that!

PMantis- "if i got promoted i'd have *more* to do."
Look higher up the ladder baby! you have to skip that whole middle management ghetto, they get shit from above and below, get straight into easy (upper) management- attending meetings, travelling to conferences, analysing strategies and all the other wank they do instead of work.
They may say they are being paid for their time, responsibility and stress- bollocks, it's a hangover from the fifties class structure with 'executives' like white collar Lords and 'Workers' like blue collar Peasants. Grrrr, stinky work.
I'm off home
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
15:25 / 24.06.03
I cant complain, my job involves filling the united kingdom with with fantastic reissue vinyl, taking home loads of great promos, stopping at four for a drink with the boss and chatting to people about music all day. I get on with the people I work with and enjoy their company socially as well.
I was on the dole for two years and did nothing. I went to the pub every day (god knows how) and generally moped about. Now I'm working full time my band are sounding fantastic, I'm DJing all over the place and I'm having more fun than I've had in ages.
I like the way work forces me to make the best of my spare time, I've been doing stuff in the last six months I would never have been doing when I was on the dole.
It's just like my old Grandpa says 'The busy man finds time for everything'.
I'm not knocking the dole, some people really shine on it and get great things done, but it wasn't for me, I guess it's just horses and courses.
I hope I did'nt end up sounding like Margaret Thatcher there.
 
 
pomegranate
13:27 / 25.06.03
i couldn't look higher up the ladder, i'd have to look in another organization. i work in a small (30 ppl) not-for-profit. everyone above me does more work than me.

folks, raise yr hand if yr jealous of lord nuneaton. (raises hand)
 
 
Whisky Priestess
14:03 / 25.06.03
Jealous, very. Work is the curse of the thinking classes.
 
  

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