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What is Faith?

 
  

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mumtage
07:00 / 25.05.03
After reading a discussion on free will, and toying with the tenets of chaos magick, i find myself returning to the same idea: that faith is what its all about. but is that true? everything points to faith, like god, science,etc. everything in our minds is based upon some kind of faith that things will stay the same. i dont really know what im talking about, or where im going with this, but id enjoy your input.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:48 / 25.05.03
Faith is the ability to invest in a belief-system in the face of a lack of evidence in favour, or even considerable evidence against. It is an activity as much as a state, a combination of creativity and denial. It is much-favoured in religions which posit a benevolent God, because clearly the world does not give unambiguous support to this notion.
 
 
Ganesh
10:27 / 25.05.03
It's the subjective conviction that X is true, in the face of a lack of evidence (or even evidence against the conviction) that this is so. Problems only really arise when one insists that one's faith-based beliefs are objectively true, and others should believe them also.
 
 
SMS
16:28 / 25.05.03
I have been very interested in this question for quite some time, because it has always seemed to me that the use of the word faith usually extends beyond the definitions that Ganesh and Nick just described, essentially an irrational belief. I just looked up the definition on m-w.com and found a definition that I still doubt covers the usage completely, but it said more than I expected.

faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Forms(s): plural faiths
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
Date: 13th century
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF
- in faith : without doubt or question : VERILY


I think the bit about belief and trust in and loyalty to God touches on it. Faith seems to be strongly associated with an emotion, and trust and loyalty are emotions. Perhaps it would be proper to add love of and reverence for God (or something else).
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
16:34 / 25.05.03
Right, Elephant head, you can have faith in whatever you want, just don't tell me I have to have faith in it too.
I think faith sort of is a god in and of itself. Not necessarily in the way we usually think of gods, but... I don't know. I have faith that the universe knows what it's doing and everything will work out like it's supposed to. Maybe I think like that because of a lack of control over the universe, but I just trust that everything's all right and will work out fine.
 
 
mumtage
20:24 / 25.05.03
but what im saying is, is faih what its all about? in truth, the only reason why we can plan for the future is that we have faith that things will remain somewhat the same. religion is based in faith in god, or that he knows what hes doing. science has faith in the scientific method, and constancy. even love is faith in the humainty of another person. since one can arguably never know anything, everything about our lives is deeply rooted in the unemphasized concept of faith. right?
 
 
SMS
23:08 / 25.05.03
That's a pretty strong position to take, really. All but the most skeptical philosophers will admit that there are certain necessary truths about the universe. A conservative set of these is the set of logical truths (pick a logic). Others will go further.

How far we can get with these necessary truths can be debated, but I think it is a very big problem if we cannot use them to justify belief in unnecessary truths. I do not mean absolute certainty. I think I am sitting in a chair right now, for instance. If I am not strongly justified in the most basic kind of belief---if I have to have some basic irrational belief underlying it, then I have to accept absolute skepticism: all my beliefs are unjustified, including the belief that all beliefs are unjustified. I hope this is wrong, and there are all kinds of methods for escaping it.

the only reason why we can plan for the future is that we have faith that things will remain somewhat the same.

Not quite. We can plan for the future because we believe that things have a continuity, but whether that belief is faith or not I do not know.
Kant looked for the necessary conditions for the possibility of experience and found that there must be a number of things. Causality was among these. To him, faith (by any definition I can think of) has nothing to do with our belief that things will remain relatively the same.
 
 
mumtage
23:24 / 25.05.03
i suppose that it all falls upon whether or not one defines belief as faith. descartes and many other philosophers embraced skepticism in order to find those necessary truths. but skepticism itself implies that there is room for doubt. such room can be elaborated to the point where it becomes necessary for one to take a side: believe or not believe. if one chooses to believe, then don't the gaps in knowledge and understanding assign to that belief the characteristics of faith?
 
 
—| x |—
01:06 / 26.05.03
…faith is what its all about…but is that true?

It might be the case that, in a sense, faith is at the core of our experience. That there is experience, we cannot doubt, but as to how our experience is interpreted, i.e., as to what we make of our experience, perhaps faith does play a fundamental function.

While I’m sympathetic towards the idea that there is faith in science as well as in religion, I think that there is a definite qualitative distinction in such faith. To me, this distinction runs along the axis of most general to most individual with respect to interpretations of human experience. Now, it seems to me that science investigates the realm of the most general, i.e., it’s methods, presuppositions, and theories are derived from what is most common to our experiences. Thus, the faith of science reflects either implicit or explicit—relative to the individual—beliefs about what is universal to a human being. These beliefs appear to include consistency-constancy: sometimes referred to as “the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature”—that we all generally expect the sun to rise in the morning, that we all generally expect that a dropped object will fall to the ground, etc. Put differently, science seems to investigate the human experience at points that are common to each individual human life—it explores the intersection of all human experience; therefore, the faith of science reflects a general faith about certain elements of phenomena as experienced by human beings.

On the other hand, the faith of religion appears to manifest itself further away from what is most general to human interpretations of experience. We see this by the fact that there is no universal religious faith, but many particular formulations of religion. So, the faith of religion is more specific to sub-sets of people, as opposed to the faith of science being that of the set of all humans. The faith of religion can run from large collections of individuals to that of the particular individual. Of course, in discussing the faith of the particular individual, this is where some people will shift the discussion from ‘religion’ to ‘spirituality’.

So, while it appears that faith plays an important function in making sense of our experiences, there seems to be a difference in the way such faith manifests itself. This difference, as we have seen, is a function of the elements in the intersection of experience relative to the totality of the specific collection of human beings.

Thus, since the faith of science is a function of its wide domain, it is a faith that can give us very little beyond the mechanics—the “how”—of human experiences. This is why it is generally held that the structures and models of science can do very little beyond analogy and metaphor in working towards explaining things like morality, religion, spirituality, etc.. The faith of science doesn’t appear to give us much ground in our want for explanations as to “why.” Put differently, the quality of faith qua science is most general, and thus, most personally vapid; whereas the quality of faith qua more particular groups of human experiences is itself more particular, and thus, more personally meaningful.

So it seems to me that there is a reasonable definition of faith to be derived from what Nick and Ganesh have said: ‘faith’ “…is the ability to invest in a belief-system” and “[i]t's the subjective conviction that X is true…”; however, I think the notion of evidence is separate from faith in the sense that ‘evidence’ is itself going to be relative to the particular methods and scope of a specific investigation. Put differently, the evidence for belief qua science is established differently than the evidence for belief qua a given religion (although, conceivably, these can also intersect—but again, the acceptance of such an intersection will also be a function of what is counted as evidence qua the mode of investigating our experience). Therefore, while it seems that all our beliefs are, in some sense, “faith based,” notions of ‘evidence’ are external to our definition of ‘faith’. As we see in the definition that SMatthew provides, ‘proof’ is only marginally involved (in 2b), and from what I have said, somewhat misleadingly.

I think that ‘trust’ is the touchstone concept of ‘faith’ and if we can trust the etymology (ha ha), then we see that trust is at the root of faith. We trust in the doctrines of science and we trust in the doctrines of religion. It is important to remember that for a large part of our history science and religion were not separate but one. It is only relatively recently in our history that science and religion have severed ties, and so, it seems reasonable that we would want to view ‘faith’ as associated with ‘religion’ and science, of course, wants to do its best to efface any notions of ‘faith’ from its investigation of human experience. However, it still seems to me that, since we are dealing with ways of interpreting human experience, there is at the core of both science and religion our belief and trust. Again, it is merely a matter of a qualitative difference as to what those beliefs and trusts are about; however, both are faith based.

I think that Ganesh’s statement, “Problems only really arise when one insists that one's faith-based beliefs are objectively true, and others should believe them also,” is somewhat mistaken or at least, doesn’t quite capture the situation. I feel that it is clear that problems do arise when people have conflicts of belief. Yes, problems occur when we try to “derive an ought from an is”—that others ought to believe so and so from what becomes established as being, i.e., what is, relative to a specific mode of interpreting human experiences. However, it cannot be about what is objectively true, because there is only truth that is internal to a specific mode of interpretation. At best science only tells us about the barest of our most general intersubjective experience. Religion, on the other hand, appears to concern narrower collections of intersubjective experience.

So, in conclusion, faith does appear to play an important function in interpreting our human experience. It seems to me that what we can say, metaphorically of course, is that the more general the interpretation, the more shallow the faith and the more specific the interpretation, the more deep the faith.

One final comment: from what’s been said, we are now in a position to see how if faith is “what it’s all about,” then questions about truth qua faith are irrelevant. We can see the paradox embedded in the question that we began with.
 
 
rakehell
01:47 / 26.05.03
Perhaps helpful, perhaps not.

I was having a conversation about religion with a Born-Again friend of mine. I started asking him about belief, faith and the difference between. In the end he summed it up like this:

Say you see a guy who's about to go over a waterfall in a barrel as a stunt. Belief is to think that he'll make it. Faith is getting in the barrel with him.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:51 / 26.05.03
mumtage: there's a distinction to be made between the use of the inductive argument - which says that for the last thirty years, the Sun has risen in the East and the Earth has not been struck by a meteorite before breakfast, and that physics as we understand it will continue to apply because it always has - and faith.

Faith asserts that a thing will be a certain way, and - perhaps because of those religious links - has some kind of personal committment to the world. It asserts an audience of some kind, from the nebulous to the specific.

Induction, on the other hand, merely expects the world to continue as before. The argument is mostly acknowledged as a contingent one - as Thanksgiving & Christmas Turkeys discover to their cost.

So no, we're not dependent on faith, but on models. Faith provides one, as does induction. And so do other arguments and positions.
 
 
—| x |—
10:32 / 26.05.03
…we're not dependent on faith, but on models.

Isn’t it more that we have faith in models? Faith doesn’t provide a model, faith is what we express towards a model.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:01 / 26.05.03
Iain Banks, in his book Dead Air has a character say, 'Faith is belief without reason.'

In the book, the response to this is 'But you have faith in reason, don't you?'
 
 
Ganesh
17:06 / 26.05.03
The "faith of science" is contingent upon evidence: a given hypothesis must be testable, repeatedly and with different observers/raters; its testing must also follow a particular methodology designed to eliminate as much 'bias' as humanly possible. This type and quality of evidence makes it widely generalisable, as paraphrased by El Zilcho, and much nearer the Holy Grail of Objective Truth.

Religious faith, on the other hand, defines 'evidence' in a different, much more individual way - which means it's valid on an individual basis only. I may view a tulip, say, as 'evidence' of the existence of a Biblical Creator, but there is no apparent way to test such a hypothesis and thus render my personal 'evidence' generalisable to all.

I think my initial statement does capture the situation with regard to the second, less readily-generalisable variety of evidence. Conflicts arise when this type of evidence is treated as the first, and seen as objective, "self-evident" or applicable to all.
 
 
Leap
18:16 / 26.05.03
Faith?

Faith is holding to an allegiance through the downs as well as the ups (it is remembering that there is more to life than that which is immediately in front of you). It is about remembering the most probable in the wider picture / appreciation instead of being swept away by immediate circumstances. When your faith brings you more downs than ups you probably have “blind faith” (faith that is not well grounded – a house built on sand, to borrow a phrase).
 
 
alas
18:40 / 28.05.03
Say you see a guy who's about to go over a waterfall in a barrel as a stunt. Belief is to think that he'll make it. Faith is getting in the barrel with him.

We are overloaded, in reality, with sense perceptions--5 senses, all working all the time, in ways we are not aware of entirely, from millions of sensors spread over our body. The problem with science is not so much reason but hubris--the faith in a kind of positivist notion of truth, the belief in a simple progressivism and the notion that laboratory conditions have brought us so much closer to the Holy Grail of Objective Truth. The cutting away of "variables" does get us a specific kind of knowledge, yes. Truth? I'm not so sure. Truth's awfully slippery.

(Of course, "what is Truth?, for that matter," the age-old postmodern question, from Pontius Pilate on down, Or maybe even Ecclesiastes, snuffles around this question continually.)

Surely we've all felt the push of faith when we've had to make a decision that we could not possibly know the outcome of, that was in fact foolish and irrational by all logical standards, but we jump in the bucket and go down the waterfall anyway. When I decided to raise my two nieces, despite all evidence suggesting that was an insane move to make, I think I was acting on faith, simply because there was too much data, and not enough to make a "logical" choice.

Life is just plain messy. Most big life-changing decisions require faith, of the jumping in the bucket kind.

I think.

Your ball.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:17 / 29.05.03
I think that's an example of what I was talking about: for the everyday decisions about life, you don't need Faith, but rather a working assumption - a filter. Now, some people invest that assumption with faith - they cling to it - but that isn't inevitable.
 
 
—| x |—
10:03 / 29.05.03
Hmm, I dunno' Nick. It seems like some sort of semantic game that might be relative to the way a person is comfortable with expressing belief. We could easily say, it seems to me, that a belief in such and such a God is a "working assumption" or a "filter" for experiencing reality. Of course, not too many religious people would be comfortable expressing their belief in God that way. Similarly, a belief that when we take a step our foot will hit the ground could be called "faith," but more people are comfortable expressing that as a "basic assumption." However, I don’t think that our comfort ought to be the measure by which we create difference.
 
 
—| x |—
10:25 / 29.05.03
Religious faith, on the other hand, defines 'evidence' in a different, much more individual way - which means it's valid on an individual basis only.

I don’t think this is quite right. Simply because religious faith has a different measure or standard of evidence doesn’t entail that “it’s valid on an individual basis only.” Certainly, there could be cases of what counts as evidence for a belief that are entirely relative to a single individual, and thus, valid subjectively only for that individual. However, a group of believers who share a similar belief set will also share an inter-subjective view that is valid qua that group—the inter-subjectivity does not share the wide domain of science, but it still can contain more members than merely a single individual.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:00 / 29.05.03
I think there's a difference between 'belief' in the sense of an (often unchecked) assumption about the world, which would roughly correspond with a filter, and 'Belief', a strong assertion about the nature of the world which is consciously held. As I said, many people use the latter over the top of the former, or perhaps in place of.

But 'Faith' is a strong statement. You have faith in something when you recognise that it is challenged. You can believe something, in the sense you use the term, without ever really giving it a lot of thought.
 
 
—| x |—
19:42 / 29.05.03
Nick, I think that I get what you are saying: we can believe such and such (say, that dropped objects fall) without much thought—it’s a typically regular phenomena in our experience; however, we can’t believe something else (say, in the existence of God) without “faith” because God’s being is not a typical phenomena in our lives. Does that sorta’ capture what you are conveying?

However, I think that here you make a (while I don’t necessarily like using this phrase because on a phenomenological reduction I’m not sure how much sense is left) “category mistake.”

Induction is a method of proof. A method of proof is not valid outside of an interpretation; i.e., induction is itself relative to some schema of making sense of the world. Faith is not. Faith is relative to the individual and is something expressed towards any given schema. Moreover, faith is not something to which the concept of “validity” can be applied: it is never valid nor invalid to have faith in such and such.

Also, I think that there has to faith in any given method of proof, i.e., we have to believe that such and such a method works. It seems to me that Godel has something to say about proof that is relevant here; namely, “the notion of proof doesn’t capture the notion of proof.” In other words, if we have a way to prove that a system is consistent—i.e., that we have reason to believe in the truth of such and such a schema—then that system must be incomplete, i.e., we have to have faith that the system will include all those phenomena that we encounter. On the other hand, if we can’t prove that a system is consistent, then we have to have faith that what it shows to be true really is true, but we can at least believe that it will include all the phenomena that we encounter. At least, that’s how I see Godel working in this situation.

Please go back to my initial post, because I think that we are saying the same thing, but with a different semantic angle. In my second to last paragraph I say, “…the more general the interpretation, the more shallow the faith and the more specific the interpretation, the more deep the faith.” Now, it seems to me this is the basically the same thing that you are saying, except that you are not willing to call certain unexamined, taken-for-granted beliefs faith. I would say that these beliefs that we have about, say, matters pertaining to things taken to be inductively true (like the sun coming up in the morning) require only a very shallow faith. Put differently, I think that faith can be quantitatively a matter of degree. The belief that the sun will come up in the morning or that a dropped object will fall demands only a small degree of faith; however, the belief in the existence of God requires a much greater degree of faith. To put this all a little differently, it seems that what we can believe without faith is that there is phenomena; however, as soon as we interpret phenomena, then there is some degree of faith, which will be great or small relative to the domain of the interpretation. The larger the intersection of particular human experiences that the domain includes, then the smaller the degree of faith required to believe in the interpretation of those experiences, and the smaller the intersection, then the greater the faith.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:26 / 30.05.03
Induction is a method of proof.

Not really. It's a method of reasoning, but it doesn't, by definition, lead to proof. Deductive arguments lead to proof. Induction is only an indicator.

Moreover, faith is not something to which the concept of “validity” can be applied:

Nor is induction. 'Validity', strictly, is a term applied to deductive argument, having nothing to do with truth value.

So:

1. Whales are mammals
2. All mammals are yellow

therefore 3. whales are yellow

is valid but untrue, whereas

1. the Sun rose in the East yesterday
2. the Sun rose in the East last Monday

therefore 3. the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow

is invalid but may well turn out to be true.

it is never valid nor invalid to have faith in such and such.

Faith is by definition an invalid argument - valid arguments are tautological, and faith requires doubt.

you are not willing to call certain unexamined, taken-for-granted beliefs faith

Quite right. Because as far as I can see, they're not invested with strong belief, they're just unexamined. They've never been challenged, therefore there is no need for them to deploy Faith. Now, if all you mean by 'faith' is a set of assumptions, examined or not, which are required to have any kind of traction in the social and physical worlds where humans have their existence, then this conversation is, to put it mildly, redundant. That kind of faith - and I have to say I think that using that word here is imprecise - is of necessity ubiquitous.
 
 
mumtage
19:01 / 30.05.03
"You have faith in something when you recognise that it is challenged. You can believe something, in the sense you use the term, without ever really giving it a lot of thought."

if this is true, then once someone recognizes the faults of their senses, and the subjectivity of necessary truth, does their "basic assumption" become a leap of faith?
 
 
—| x |—
09:20 / 31.05.03
I said, “Induction is a method of proof,” and you said, “Not really. It's a method of reasoning, but it doesn't, by definition, lead to proof. Deductive arguments lead to proof. Induction is only an indicator.”

OK. Yes, it’s a method of reasoning, yes, it’s an indicator of proof and not direct proof. I misspoke. However, it is still reasoning within an interpretive framework, it is still internal to some schema of making sense of the world. Again, faith is external to the schema (although can manifest within)—it is something we have in things like conclusions derived via induction. Point taken about technical ‘validity’ though (and geez, it’s a pet peeve of mine when people throw around the word ‘valid’!).

Faith is by definition an invalid argument - valid arguments are tautological, and faith requires doubt.

But obviously we can doubt the conclusion “the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow.” Doesn’t this sorta’ point to the idea that we need to have faith in the conclusion from the inductive format of the argument? Moreover, I don’t think that the idea of “an invalid argument” is in the definition of faith. Faith isn’t about argument, its more about trust, like I say above.

…as far as I can see, [certain unexamined, taken-for-granted beliefs are] not invested with strong belief, they're just unexamined. They've never been challenged, therefore there is no need for them to deploy Faith. Now, if all you mean by 'faith' is a set of assumptions, examined or not, which are required to have any kind of traction in the social and physical worlds where humans have their existence, then this conversation is, to put it mildly, redundant. That kind of faith - and I have to say I think that using that word here is imprecise - is of necessity ubiquitous.

I think that it will depend here on what you mean by ‘redundant’. If you mean that looking at ‘faith’ in the meaning that is being asserted has no work to do or nothing to say, then I think that we’ve hardly scratched the surface of that discussion and it’s a little to early to fold our hand. If anything, I am trying to clear up the imprecision and bias connotations that the word ‘faith’ seems to carry.

Also, it seems to me that saying that certain of our unexamined taken-for-granted beliefs have “…never been challenged” is taking a certain leap of faith. I mean, simply because my own experience hasn’t challenged certain beliefs doesn’t mean that every human experience has never challenged them. Put differently, it seems that there is an underlying faith that an individual has regarding these unexamined beliefs simply because they have never been challenged in his or her experience. And whether our investment in these beliefs is strong or not, the idea of faith that I’m arguing for makes reference to degrees of faith—metaphorically as “deep” and “shallow” at the extremes. Ubiquitous?—Yes, definitely.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:14 / 01.06.03
it’s an indicator of proof

No. Induction cannot prove. It can suggest a model.

it is still internal to some schema of making sense of the world

As is any other form of argument or perception accessible or conceivable to the human mind, by definition. Even the notions we perceive as a priori true may be contingent upon our perceptual framework. Mathematics is often deemed necessary truth - but perhaps it is merely that it is contingent upon our mental structure, and we are incapable of recognising that it is merely a point of view.

Doesn’t this sorta’ point to the idea that we need to have faith in the conclusion from the inductive format of the argument?

Most people take inductive arguments as sufficient to base a lifestyle on. Yes, you could make it an issue of faith that the Sun will rise in the same place tomorrow, or you could just behave as if it will, and never really give it any thought. The first would be a committment to believe, the second just mental intertia.

I am trying to clear up the imprecision and bias connotations that the word ‘faith’ seems to carry.

Well, FWIW, my version of faith is tighter than yours, in that it embraces only the 'strong' formulation of beliefs and models. I accept as faith only beliefs and assumptions which are consciously asserted - perhaps internally - rather than unexamined and received or unconsciously held notions. The more ubiquitous 'faith' which you seem to posit requires only that we be willing to assume something for the sake of functionality in our perceptual world, not that we actually have a conviction or assert a truth.
 
 
—| x |—
07:00 / 02.06.03
So I say “induction is an indicator of proof,” and Nick says “No. Induction cannot prove. It can suggest a model.” And so I say, “Hold up there cowboy, I think you’re trying to sell me a three legged horse.”

First, it seems to be that I agree that induction does not prove something; however, it also appeared to me that we both agreed that it was an “indicator.” So I say it indicates proof, but it is not really proof, in a strict deductive sense. You seem to disagree because you feel that induction indicates a model. If it indicates a model, then is it “not really a model”? I don’t know if that make sense. I don’t think induction points us to models; rather, induction is a way to model a perceived structure about the world such that the conclusion is indicated as true or as to be believed. That’s pretty close to the same thing, really (taken as true, taken as to be believed).

Now, I’d love to get into a talk about mathematics, but I’m already doing that somewhere else. Let me say this: I don’t think mathematics is a priori truth and I don’t think it’s a necessary truth, and I’d agree that it is contingent upon our ways of experiencing. In other words, I can hold the position that I am arguing and also agree with all these points about mathematics.

Most people take inductive arguments as sufficient to base a lifestyle on. Yes, you could make it an issue of faith that the Sun will rise in the same place tomorrow, or you could just behave as if it will, and never really give it any thought. The first would be a commitment to believe, the second just mental inertia.

Well if we wanted to be anal, we could say that it’s a “scientific fact” that the Sun actually doesn’t rise in the exact same place each day, but I’m only mentioning that because it’s funny. Seriously, though, we could say the same about so-called “religious” faith. We could simply behave as if the object of our worship really did exist and not really give it any thought. Again, faith seems to me to be manifest in both a commitment to believe and mere mental inertia.

…my version of faith is tighter than yours, in that it embraces only the 'strong' formulation of beliefs and models. I accept as faith only beliefs and assumptions which are consciously asserted - perhaps internally - rather than unexamined and received or unconsciously held notions.

Fair enough. We might have to “agree to disagree” based on our willingness to subscribe to a certain definition of ‘faith’. However, I think that the definition that I desire to work with might accomplish some work towards engaging science and religion in dialogue or perhaps better, establishing possible elements in an intersection / synthesis. I don’t see how your definition would in anyway work towards such an aim, but perhaps you prefer to see science as compartmentalized from religion?

The more ubiquitous 'faith' which you seem to posit requires only that we be willing to assume something for the sake of functionality in our perceptual world, not that we actually have a conviction or assert a truth.

Hmm…I’d have to think about this more, and perhaps you could say a little more? I mean, I don’t know if it is something being assumed for mere functionality in our perceptual world—it be good if you explained a bit more what you mean. And I think that the definition of faith I desire to work with is about something of which we are convinced or assert as truth, but it is also more than that.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:06 / 02.06.03
We could simply behave as if the object of our worship really did exist and not really give it any thought. Again, faith seems to me to be manifest in both a commitment to believe and mere mental inertia.

Not really. Many religious thinkers would reject the second as an instance of Faith. C.S. Lewis and John Milton spring to mind. Faith is not behaviour; Faith is of the mind (or the heart and soul, if you like).

The full OED gives the following:

Confidence, reliance, trust (in the ability, goodness of a person, etc.; in the efficacy or worth of a thing; or in the truth of a statement or doctrine)... In early use, only with reference to religious objects; this is still the prevalent application and often colours the wider use...

Note that 'statement' is twinned with 'doctrine' - this is not a casual statement, but an assertion.

More crucially:

... [A] conviction practically operative on the character and will, and thus opposed to the mere assent to relgious truth...

You are appropriating a term which has the meaning I'm using, and giving it a far broader one - why? Because you hope to use the weaker construction to make a bridge between science and religion. How will re-drafting the language lead to any substantive communiction? It will simply conceal whatever gaps in communcation there are under another layer of imprecise language.

The term 'Faith' exists and is derived from religion. It has a specific meaning, and it is unscientific to broaden the use in order to embrace a more comfortable middle ground.

More, however, science and religion are already massively interwoven. The issues between them may well be not because they understand each other too little, but too well. A topic for another thread, perhaps and if you're interested, you should glance at 'Al Qaeda and what it means to be Modern' by John Gray, and probably also Horkheimer and Adorno's 'Dialectic of Enlightenment', although it's a bloody endless drag and if there's a decent 'Adorno reader' at the moment, go with that instead.

And I think that the definition of faith I desire to work with is about something of which we are convinced or assert as truth, but it is also more than that.

More in what way?
 
 
Quantum
14:32 / 02.06.03
I know what Faith I desire- Buffy's naughty nemesis
Just to put my tuppence in, Faith is a form of belief, but you can have faith in your beliefs- like you can have beliefs about beliefs, second order beliefs ('I believe I do not believe I am free') like second order desires ('I want to not want to eat that cake').

Is Faith a qualitatively different type of belief? Does it 'one-up' ordinary beliefs in some way?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:39 / 03.06.03
I think the OED and the theologians answer that. Faith is active, belief can be passive. We could redefine the word to mean something else, but why?
 
 
Quantum
10:49 / 03.06.03
So if Faith contravenes other beliefs it trumps them? For example, if I have Faith in the resurrection, my belief that you can't come back from the dead goes by the wayside.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:35 / 03.06.03
Hmmm...

Perhaps if you have faith in the Resurrection, you will not, by definition, entertain a belief that it's impossible to return from the dead - although you might also reasonably enough think of Jesus as a special case.

More interestingly, the acquisition of Faith in the miracle of the Resurrection might drive out your hitherto uncontested assumption that a return from the grave is impossible.

I didn't intend to suggest an arm-wrestle between belief and Faith, however.
 
 
—| x |—
04:48 / 04.06.03
Many religious thinkers would reject the second as an instance of Faith. C.S. Lewis and John Milton spring to mind. Faith is not behaviour; Faith is of the mind (or the heart and soul, if you like).

Sure, but I’m a religious thinker and I’m rejecting their narrow definition of faith. Hmm, I don’t know if I’ve said that Faith is a behaviour, I think that I tried to say that we can Faith without having to be aware that we have Faith. This, I think, is what you reject. It seems to me that there is no need to separate mind from body: Faith is of at least the human experience and this is experience that stems from the mind-body structure. It seems to me, but I get the feeling that you’ll reject this too, that there is Faith that is “of the body.” For example, I’m out skateboarding, say. So I’m cruising along and I see this nice looking smooth curb coming up on my right. I think to myself, “That might be a nice curb to backslide nose slide as I zip by.” Now, as I approach the curb in the instant that I actually attempt the trick I am no longer thinking about the trick, rather, I have Faith that my body, board, and curb will all align in such a way that I do indeed backside nose slide the curb. This seems Faith of the body and not of the mind. Or better, it is simply the Faith of the body-mind manifesting itself in a particular experience.

Note that 'statement' is twinned with 'doctrine'

Yes, but twinned in a disjunctive clause: “Confidence, reliance, trust…in the truth of a statement or confidence, reliance, trust…in the truth of a doctrine.” I’m not sure what you mean when you say, “…this is not a casual statement, but an assertion.”

I think it is important to note that in the definition it says “[i]n early use, only with reference to religious objects…” because as I pointed out in my initial post “[i]t is important to remember that for a large part of our history science and religion were not separate but one.” In other words, for much of our history Faith in religion was Faith in science. That is, there was certainly a time when the word Faith was used closer to and not further away from the definition that I desire to work with.

You are appropriating a term which has the meaning I'm using, and giving it a far broader one - why? Because you hope to use the weaker construction to make a bridge between science and religion.

Essentially, yes. However, I do not think that because I am broadening the definition also entails that I am “weakening it.” Quite the contrary, actually. If the definition I am using encompasses the definition that you are using, i.e., it is as “strong” as your preferred definition, then it seem to me that adding a greater depth to the definition doesn’t weaken it but makes it at least as strong as the original definition.

How will re-drafting the language lead to any substantive communication?

Well, it seems to me that if both sides can understand that their respective interpretations of human experience are in some way based on Faith, then it seems that this gives the two interpretations one less difference, and so, one less thing to argue or debate over. In short, it gives them both an obvious common ground for dialogue.

The term 'Faith' exists and is derived from religion. It has a specific meaning, and it is unscientific to broaden the use in order to embrace a more comfortable middle ground.

Sure, but science could also, in a sense, be said to derive from religion—kinda’ in reference what I’ve already said above. I don’t think I am looking for a “comfortable middle ground.” It seems to me that I am trying to look at how Faith is a ground of human experience—no “middle” about it.

More, however, science and religion are already massively interwoven. The issues between them may well be not because they understand each other too little, but too well.

Yes. It might possibly be that the issues between them are a function of their understanding of one and other. However, there used to be a harmonious co-existence between religion and science. Both were readily acknowledged to involve Faith. However, then they severed their co-existence and went their separate ways. Ever since then, the scientists have been trying to disassociate themselves from the idea that Faith still plays a role in science and the religious people cling to Faith and desire that it is something that can only apply to religion. It’s sorta’ futile, or so it seems to me. It creates an unnecessary divide where there was no divide originally.

More in what way?

In the way that I’ve been talking about it!
 
 
Quantum
07:43 / 04.06.03
Faith in Science-
Taking the traditional usage of Faith, I'd just point out that Science is as fundamentally based on it as Religion. The central tenet of Science (the Inductive scientific method) depends upon the principle of Induction (the future will continue to resemble the past, if you see a million white swans and no black ones you can say it's likely all swans are white etc.). The principle of induction is unfalsifiable and unprovable, and can only be accepted on Faith- so scientists take as much of a leap of faith as priests, whether they know it or not.

I don't think Faith can bridge Science and Religion though, they were once compared to a shark and a tiger- incommensurable, dealing with different realms with different rules. But if individual scientists can be religious, maybe the two realms don't need bridging? If individuals can happily have Faith in both God and Method, isn't that enough?
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:47 / 04.06.03
Given that I agree with what Nick says above (rather telling, IMO), I should probably let this one lie.

I'd just point out that Science is as fundamentally based on it as Religion. The central tenet of Science (the Inductive scientific method) depends upon the principle of Induction...The principle of induction is unfalsifiable and unprovable, and can only be accepted on Faith - Quantum

The principle of induction is a working hypothesis which is known to fail. However, to make any assertions or even to interact with the world requires some working hypothesis. To cross the road, I need to assume things about my experiences of cars, roads, walking etc. Induction is a hypothesis that you use all the time. Life would be impopssible without it.

What quantum is saying here comes down to the assertion that interacting with the world in any way (presumably this also includes non-interaction) requires faith. Given my agreement with Nick, I can't help feel that the point of this assertion is to make "faith" a concept to apply to any situation, while keeping its rhetorical value and associations. I suppose the desire is to blur the division between science and religion, by saying that they are both (and one assumes an implicit equivalence here) founded on faith.

The problem is that this will not be an aid to communication. The charmingly Orwellian notion of removing a linguistic division will not work. People will still see a difference. Moreover, it doesn't really help one to understand these different areas of human activity.
 
 
Quantum
09:12 / 04.06.03
What quantum is saying here comes down to the assertion that interacting with the world in any way .. requires faith.
Well, more that faith is fundamental, it underpins other beliefs. Personally I reserve use of the word Faith to indicate faith in God as a rule, but for the purpose of philosophy it can be used as a technical term to indicate a belief that you are completely certain of- in that sense we all have faith in induction, causation, logic, mathematics etc. and use those to gauge and justify other beliefs.

What I'm asserting is the primacy of faith, not to join science and religion but to examine the nature of our fundamental beliefs, the ones we don't question- our articles of faith.
 
  

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