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Underground > Comic Books >

New X-Men #141 - Spoilers, no doubt.

  
  

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Raw Norton
01:52 / 23.05.03
Can I discuss that Altoids ad here, or should I start another thread?

Actually, I don't really know what discussion to do, other than ask a great "What the fuck?"
 
 
Mike-O
03:41 / 23.05.03
Definetly Jimenez's best issue yet, IMO. Wonderful final line.... Damn Grant is great with those cliffhangers...
 
 
The Natural Way
09:26 / 23.05.03
SARS: Oh, right, now I get it, the Cuckoos are Weapon XI! Only not. So, seeing as yr wrong and they're not, what other evidence is there that the cuckoos would ally themselves with nasty secret government types?
 
 
Quimper
11:32 / 23.05.03
Because they (or maybe just Esme) are children and easily manipulated. Especially if one of them is so desperate to carve out an individual identity—away from their clique—that she would be driven to murder. She was probably promised power in this new world and will do anything to get it. To prove that she's better than her four clones and her familiarity-breeds-contempt school teacher.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:41 / 23.05.03
Well, that's possible, I guess. Still not sold on any one idea yet. We'll just have to wait and see.
 
 
Quireboy
11:43 / 23.05.03
Remembrax, well of course I'm just speculating! But if the Xavier Institute opened its doors to far more students and you were a shadowy military organisation wouldn't you plant an opperative in there? We can't make educated guesses until we know more about the diamond bullet - was Fantomex or another member of Weapon Plus involved, which would then suggest a link between the Cuckoos and Weapon Plus. Or did Esme telepathically manipulate Beast into carving one?

There were loads of clues pointing to the Cuckoos though - and Esme in particular, from the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie point that Ganesh mentioned, to the Cuckoos so easily "regaining" their telepathic powers. I think Persephone's point about teenage girls' friendships was spot on as well though.

I suspect the Weapon Plus arc may answer a lot of outstanding questions. Is there a link between the nanotechnology used by Cassandra and that used by Weapon Plus - many have assumed there was a link between her Sentinel operation and the U-Men.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:45 / 23.05.03
There was definitely a link betwixt Cassie and John Sublime. When Wolverine is captured, Cassie says the mutants remains will be "harvested". It wasn't until I read the whole collection that I realized what she was talking about.

Persephone,
I love the Ghost World linkage and it fits so well. "You've grown up to be a beautiful woman. And I'm totally going to liquify your brain."

I don't think it would be a conscious choice for the Cuckoos to be Weapon XI. They were either bred in a lab or they weren't. But we'll see in Weapon Plus.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:48 / 23.05.03
[Excuse me, I'm a neohpyte]

I thought Beak was the best thing in the issue... really touching.

'I am valued?'

'Look at this guy's wingspan!'

And the way he's shown at the end when the babies are frolicking around his head. Ahhh.

On his syntax etc.: in the E for Extinction arc, when he's in the danger room with Beast, he says that Beak 'is something this girl called me back in Rotterdam when they would find me hiding under the beer barrels'
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:46 / 23.05.03
I agree, Beak was far and away the best thing about this issue, along with Henry. While everyone is off being very serious, or doing these over the top things, Henry and Beak are still being quite human with their endearing flaws. I really like that Henry had convinced himself that people suspected him - he's always being like that, he's a brilliant guy but sometimes very obvious things go right past him. He's a very emotional person, and those emotions get the best of his intelligence.

I like the issue more than I said earlier on - I just don't like these conspiracy things very much. Elaborate onspiracies and the X-Men have always been a very bad combination. I'll be very upset if whoever/whatever Esme is working with has not been part of the story all along in a fairly obvious (if obscure) way. We'll see, I guess. Right now I'm starting to fear that the series is taking a turn for the parts of Grant's writing that I really don't care for.
 
 
diz
18:50 / 23.05.03
Right now I'm starting to fear that the series is taking a turn for the parts of Grant's writing that I really don't care for.

out of curiosity: what parts are those? which of his works do you like and dislike?
 
 
bio k9
20:01 / 23.05.03
I think Esme took a peek in Scotts head and met someone. And Emma found out.
 
 
bio k9
20:09 / 23.05.03
Other nice bits:

Emma telepathically called a taxi in #116.

"So you can all shut up. All of you."
And they do. Eye-lights out and everything. Poor girls.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:42 / 23.05.03
Oh my God, Bio - I think you've nailed it. I hope so. I've never liked Apocalypse, but it would be really perfect if it was, and I have faith that Grant would make the character quite interesting. It would make everything fit together rather well - we've been told about En Sabah Nur from very early on, and it's been Scott's reason for acting so weird all of the time. It fits into Grant's story as well as overall X-Continuity, too.

Oh...

Good Grant:

Kill Yr Boyfriend
Doom Patrol
New X-Men
St. Swithin's Day
Animal Man
about half of the Invisibles, spread between the three books

Bad Grant:

the other half of the Invisibles
The Filth
JLA - (note: I hate that this series is called JLA. It's Justice League of America! Now and forever!)
Arkham Asylum

I dislike almost all of the first book of the Invisibles except for the the first four issues, and a couple one-off issues. I like most of volume 2, and the first 8 issues of volume 3.
 
 
Persephone
22:33 / 23.05.03
I must say, I was a little down on Grant --can I call him Grant?-- the issue after Sophie died. I thought it was a screw-up that the Cuckoos' heads still worked. Thought he was just throwing away the storyline. But looking back, it's been pretty nicely laid out. So I think I'm going to trust him a little bit more...

...the three Cuckoos' eyes aren't glowing anymore, but they're not normal eyes. Maybe they can get recharged?

How many babies do Beak and Angel have now? Not just five...?
 
 
gergsnickle
23:03 / 23.05.03
Oh yeah, Apocalypse, that makes sense...for some reason I instantly thought of Magneto when Esme was leaving the mansion, and when the cab showed up driverless, it just added fuel to the fire. Sure, he's "dead" but maybe this is all a way to get the "evil" Magneto - killing the whole human race and that - back. I'm usually wrong about these things but that's what came to mind.

I agree with those who had their reservations about this issue - the art was fantastic, and there was a lot of little details to keep me pleased, but this issue, with its 1/2 explanation of the "murder" gave us more new questions than answers. Which is the point I suppose.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:33 / 24.05.03
Hmmm, Grant was trying to make a point by killing Erik. It'd be shit and wrong for him to bring Mags back now.

I do like the Apocalypse idea. I really do. I'd like it to be true, but I'm just not sure. I'm fairly convinced En Sabur guy has been firmly booted from Scott's cranium. Wouldn't Emma have bumped psyches with him if he was still hanging out?

Has anyone else mentioned the connection Emma and Esme's between the psychic taxi-calling? Really underlines the New White Queen thing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:38 / 24.05.03
Can I call him Grant?

You *can*, but you will then have to call all the authors and philosophers whose work you are referencing by their first names as well for the rest of time.

I still don't see the point of the X-Treme X-Men crossover, I fear. Two of the world's most powerful telepaths are based at the mansion, and Prof. X has shown a willingness to look into people's minds when the situation demands it on countless occasions. It is just possible that Esme, with the help of Kick, could have shielded herself, but Angel? Beak?

Unless the whole thing is a joke - Bishop and Sage are, after all, useless - Beak's confession unravels the mystery, not their detection, and they fail utterly to apprehend the malefactor. In which case, hah hah, very funny, lookit the ineffectual X-Treme X-Men, but what exactly was the point of inviting them in the first place?
 
 
quinine92001
17:02 / 24.05.03
QQ has returned as something worse than a many tenactled weird angled gaping eye maw-he is now a symbol the readers will always see but the X-Men will never notice. meme anyone?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:24 / 24.05.03
Haus - I think that Bishop and Sage were there mostly to a) add to the contrived detective show/whodunnit feeling of the story and b) for an outside authority to be present, since it was to be emphasized that everyone at the mansion was a suspect. It couldn't be left up to Charles and Jean, they were suspects like everyone else.

There probably is a point to showing how ineffective Bishop and Sage were in unravelling the mystery, but they were really just there to aid the narrative structure of the last two issues, so it maybe isn't much of a critique of them as characters.
 
 
Professor Silly
17:26 / 24.05.03
I really doubt the Fantomex-diamond bullet connection. Factor in the cost of custom designing a gun to fire said bullet and we're talking about some major fundage.
Now Fantomex has shown himself to be very crafty and all, but not rich per se. It may seem like he was rich when he visited his mother, but I firmly believe all of that stuff happened inside his ship/mutation, and served as misdirection for Jean and Charles.
Lots of money and resources? Seems more like the Hellfire Club to me.
I'm glad someone else thought of the Apocolypse possibility. Remember: he has control over his form and shape on a molecular level, so he could appear as a 6'2" man, and 4'3" woman, or a flower vase for that matter.
Another suspect that came to mind from Sage's non-specific description was Mr. Sinister...but I have a hard time imagining GM writing this character into the storyline.

So in conclusion: I don't think it was Fantomex...I don't think it was Scott...and I don't think it was Maggie Simpson.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:00 / 24.05.03
Apocalypse doesn't have a body anymore. He's just a disembodied evil spirit, and doubt that is going to change.

Scott, however, is about 6'2.
 
 
perceval
19:50 / 24.05.03

Don't forget Essex. He fits all the clues...

6'2" or taller.
Can disrupt Sage like that.
Tried to kill a woman who was trying to split a certain couple.
Has the know how and resources to build the weapon that could do it.
Could move around outside the mansion without being detected.
Tied to the living weapons programs.
Has a history of manipulating genetics and building superhumans.
Tied to the Hellfire Club.
Has the abilty to design a power enhancing drug. More importantly, would do it.
"If only you knew, Mr. Bishop. But don't worry, you'll all find out soon enough." Someone the X-Men know.
"Perhaps we'll meet again in the new world that's coming, but I doubt it." Someone who plans big, and long term.
Bsides (for those who've seen the preview art for next issue), who else leaves redheads where Scott can find them?

E
 
 
Simplist
20:01 / 24.05.03
Long as we're speculating here... I know Magneto's already been discounted in this thread, but I have this vague memory of Morrison in some interview or other after his NXM run was announced but before it had started, talking about his desire to do "the ultimate Magneto story". Since we know his run was initially planned out only through #150, if he's going to do it it will probably be in the next 9 issues. (I don't actually believe my own theory here, btw, but it is an outside possibility.)
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:43 / 24.05.03
1. I will bet you any sum of money that Mr. Sinister has nothing to do with anything and will not appear in Morrison's run. He is going to pop up in future issues of Austen's comic, though.

2. When Morrison made his 'ultimate Magneto story' comment, it was before the decision was made to kill of Magneto in the second issue. There is also a possibility that #132 was the "ultimate Magneto story." Grant has stressed that Magneto is gone for the remainder of his run, and I think it is fairly reasonable to expect that it will stay that way.

3. If you just read the issues that actually exist, it seems that En Sabah Nur's existence and his relationship with Scott have been intentionally planted from the start. Since Grant planned his whole run as one continuous story with ideas and characters planted early on that become more important later, it is unlikely that Grant would suddenly drop in a major plot development out of the left field without warning or foreshadowing.
 
 
Simplist
21:04 / 24.05.03
It actually crossed my mind that Magneto's three-panel death in #115 was the "ultimate Magneto story", Grant having been in a sarcastic mood when he made the comment.
 
 
ciarconn
21:14 / 24.05.03
Well, there might be certain logic in Apocalypse trying to take revenge on Scott and Jean. The cuckoos (directed by Esme) were certainlly central in the last part of this triangle mess. And you are forgetting another of Apocalypse' powers: he could skip from body to body, so he might have taken on Esme's body, and formed the cuckoos just for infiltrating the school.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:23 / 24.05.03
I really doubt that the Cuckoos were created by anyone to infiltrate Xavier's school. I think they are their own thing, and they have their own arc in this grand story of Grant's. If the Apocalypse theory is at all right on, it's probably exactly as Bio K9 thought - that Esme met En Sabah Nur while inside of Scott's head.
 
 
The Falcon
01:08 / 25.05.03
Mmm-hmm. Unusually, I'm in agreement with Flux' last two posts.

I think Grantybaws could do a really good Mr. Sinister story, and, yes, all the clues fit, Perceval. But like yr. Mastermind theory, it's not in keeping with the 'streamlined' ethos New X-Men, and indeed New Marvel, are going for. As a payoff, having these characters appear out of nowhere, instead of an answer arriving from Grant's carefully juxtaposed clues, just wouldn't work. I think quite a lot of people read New without any forehand X-lore knowledge. Conversely, for others, such as myself, Flux and Perceval, GM has been increasingly dropping a few tasty cookies/easter eggs/whatever you want to call 'em.

Speaking of Nathaniel Essex, has anyone read Milligan and Leon's Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix? Great team, and it apparently miffed Claremont, which racks up a two for two in my register.
 
 
perceval
06:56 / 25.05.03

Yeah, read Milligan's Essex, which is why I think the character is a natural for Grant. Speaking of that mini, only Jean would find herself in the position of being dropped naked onto a Victorian Church of England alter, and just nonchalently shrug it off as par for the course

It probably is Poccy, all things considered, though, if so, I hope it's closer to Simonson's Apocalypse, who was a lot more interesting than the 90s version, IMO. The 80s version saw himself as Charles eventually saw Cassandra, the agent of Nature forcing change and evolution. The 80s Apocalypse would have done everything Cassandra did, but with the INTENT of everything working out the way it did.

Maybe he was behind Cassandra's actions, somehow?

E
 
 
Quireboy
08:31 / 25.05.03
Well, I've read this issue now - and taken a look back over the Cuckoos previous appearances.

But first off, the pacing of this issue was spot on - and made up for the disappointment of the last. Grant seemed to be tapping a whole Buffy-meets-Agetha-Christie-cum-Homicide vibe. On some level it almost seemed a bit of a pisstake, but he really seems to have hit his stride. Angel and Beak were great. The students are really at the fore now and regularly more interesting/engaging than the X-Men. His portrayal of Sage was also a vast improvement on Claremont's IMO - telepathic emails, psychic hard drive, etc - her powers for once seemed to be defined rather than constantly changing to suit the plot.

Persephone was really spot on with the Ghostworld comment. It's a bit Heathers as well I think. This is set up in NXM123 - the second issue of the Imperial arc - when Esme is first named and the other Cuckoos are pissed off with her for snogging Stuff. The other Cuckoos tell Emma: "Combined we're a brilliant supermind. Without Esme we're just four smart blondes. Actually if you really want to know, we think it's a plot of some kind. It's not like her to do this." Esme is looking daggers at them.

So Esme then takes kick to boost her own telepathy and free herself from the group mind. (I'm not so sure that she's necessarily the 'prime' Cuckoo now.) Where does she get the kick from? Is someone else at the school involved or could it be an organisation like the Hellfire Club or Weapon Plus?

Esme's actions in 141 mirror what we saw of Emma's past in 139. Like Emma, she's the rebel and breaks away from her family to forge a new identity for herself. Will this make her the new White Queen? Well. possibly - the Hellfire Club do appear in the next issue. But if Esme is so determined to not be like Emma (although of course she is) would she really hook up with the Hellfire Club?

BTW anyone think she switched off her sisters telepathic powers when she told them to shut up?

But I agree that it's unlikely the Cuckoos were part of the Weapon Plus programme. I'm not an expert on X-men continuity but wouldn't Lady Deathstrike be Weapon XI? Nevertheless Weapon Plus have as good a motive as the Hellfire Club in supplying kick. The former to push young mutants towards violence that would justify a crackdown (compare how Black activists accused the CIA of pushing crack into the projects), the latter to control mutantkind.

What about Fantomex? Discount the diamond bullet connection. If you look back to the fight with Weapon XII. Fantomex is firing strange bullets but the images on them are not reflections - suggesting they might be diamond - but are skulls, drawn or carved on. However, Fantomex clearly isn't to be trusted. He has an agenda. Is he a double agent for Weapon Plus? Possible. But I think it's more likely his only loyalty is to himself. He wants his freedom, so pushes the X-Men towards attacking the Weapon Plus programme. Qumiper's suggested that the driverless taxi could be E.V.A. - I'm not sure about that. But it's possible that much as Esme played Emma and Jean and Quentin and Xavier off against one another, Fantomex could well be manipulating Weapon Plus and the X-Men into mutual destruction.

Re. Apocalypse. Morrison's made a point of not using the X-Men's former villains. Consider Cyclop's comment in 134: "After Genosha, the old troublemakers don't seem to bother, do they?" It's possible some old supervillain has been biding their time but I'm not convinced and will wait to see what the Hellfire Club get up to next issue before making a firm prediction.

Frankly I don't see Apocalypse as much of a threat when you have mutants as powerful as Xorn and Phoenix on the team. And didn't Jean and Cable exorcise him from Scott's mind then destroy his consciousness. Although if anyone could write Apocalypse well it's Grant - his survival of the fittest philosophy fits with NXM.

However, isn't it more likely that a character/organisation Grant has already used is involved? The comments about Scott's possession could foreshadow the return of Apocalypse but isn't that a convoluted conspiracy as well? And haven't all the major villains in NXM had telepathic or reality altering powers of some kind?

One final comment about Xorn. Xavier made an interesting point in the light of Xorn's secret killing of the U-Men in 136: "Sometimes even the best people will do terible things to protect their secrets, Mister Xorn."
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
10:14 / 25.05.03
Don't you think it's quite telling that Apocalypse is referred to as an 'evil spirit' when Scott talks about him? I doubt that if the character enters the story, he will actually be a physical presence. He's just something lurking around in the dark corners of Scott's mind, I think.
 
 
Quireboy
10:49 / 25.05.03
So, are you suggesting Scott is still possessed? I don't think so. You're right that Scott's inner demons have been a long-running subplot. Emma asks what's the big optic blast that Scott's holding back. Isn't it more likely that we're going to see Dark Cyclops emerging as a result of Apocalypse's influence? That seems to be insinuated by Emma and Scott's conversations just before they began their psychic affair. Though Scott going bad sounds as unappealing as the return of Apocalypse - and not Morrison's style.

The Scott subplot does seem likely to come to the fore in Assault on Weapon Plus though.

Back to the Cuckoos, how far do you think Esme's manipulation went. Is it possible that she prompted Quentin's parents to tell him he was adopted and pushed Scott and Emma to go further? Not that we need to know, and it probably won't (and shouldn't) be spelt out. The girls were there at all the key moments to direct the course of events - and Esme's schemes helped them win the confidence of the teachers.
 
 
Raw Norton
19:14 / 25.05.03
I do not think this would ever happen. I do not think this ever ought to happen. However, if NXM plots really were determined solely by the speculation on this forum, I see only one clear candidate for Esme's collaborator...Onslaught!
He's been mentioned during Grant's run, he could tie into a whole "ultimate Magento" story; it works.

In conclusion, thank God it's Grant writing this thing and not us. Or Austen.
 
 
bio k9
20:16 / 25.05.03
Remember back in the first issue of Grant's run when Scott and Logan are in the jet and they're having a psychic conference call with the rest of the team?

"Couldn't wait to get out of that bald head, could you, Slim?"

"What? Are you insinuating something?"

Maybe its nothing. The Barbelith comics forum is famous for twisting little nothing bits into major plot points in order to fit some screwy theory. But...maybe there was a reason Scott didn't want Professor X spending too much time in his head. Maybe theres a reason Scott Summers decided to give Ugly John a mercy killing. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's being controlled, I think hes being influenced.

Didn't Grant say Scott was headed for the mother of all nervous breakdowns?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:08 / 25.05.03
Like Bio says, it's probably an influence in Scott's mind. En Sabah Nur might not be there, but something is. Something is inside of Scott that's eventually going burst and cause a lot of trouble, it's been foreshadowed since the beginning. It may be En Sabah Nur, it may be just be Scott influenced by En Sabah Nur's residual presence. I doubt it's going to be Scott's version of Dark Phoenix, but it's definitely a-comin'. Refer back to Emma and Scott's conversation in #131 - Grant's laying it on pretty thick there, and there have been many other occasions in which it is hinted that Scott is seriously about to lose his shit.

I like the idea of the old Apocalypse being reworked into a disembodied ancient spirit. I think it has a lot of potential, especially if there is some doubt as to whether he's really there or not.
 
  

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