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Wealth, Power and Race - is it just that the white guys want some things more?

 
  

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passer
02:53 / 23.05.03
So what is the flip side of institutional racism? I don't think white men are the only ones keeping the merry go round going. What are minorites of all types and women doing to perpetuate the system or perhaps not doing to change things?
 
 
pomegranate
13:28 / 23.05.03
i got a "quite so" from haus!!!!
*covers face and giggles like a little girl*

ahem. anyway. i would say, passer, that there's a lot of inadvertent complacency going on. for example, it is wrong for a prospective employer to ask a woman if she's planning on having children. but this does happen. and she should speak up, but many don't know that it's wrong. or maybe they feel some nagging feeling, like, "would they have asked a man that?" but don't do anything about it. things like that. i think often women subconsciously defer to men, since it's what we've been taught.
white men are not the only institutional racists/sexists, if that's not obvious. minorities are prejudiced against other minorities and even themselves, just like there are women w/definite misogynistic tendencies. like it or not, yr a product of yr culture. if you aren't aware of it, you can't fight it.
 
 
alas
16:50 / 23.05.03
Outlaw: I am glad to have you here. I am a white woman, and I hear you, and I respect you as a fellow human struggler, who I think does care about success and failure--it is after all about life and death, and we are hard-wired to care about our fellow strugglers on this planet. Whether we want to or not. It's how we survive.

You don't like the idea of institutionalized racism. You like the idea of personal responsibility and the work ethic. And I appreciate your discomfort with the easy use of racism as a label.

Well, I hope you will hear what I have to say, although I believe that we come to this topic from different places. I know that I am a beneficiary of institutionalized racism, so I feel like I can comment on this. My grandfather came to the U.S. from Norway in 1929. He could not speak English; he was one of 11 kids in a poor family. He never saw his mother alive, but he had 5 other brothers who came to the U.S. One was a drunk, so the other four put him on a ship and sent him back home to Norway, or so I'm told.

He moved out to the midwest, where there were lots of other immigrants from Europe and no African Americans, Asian Americans, or even Jewish people. And the other immigrants were mostly Protestant. To be Catholic was allowed, but intermixing was discouraged even when I was growing up in the 1970s and 1980s. Mexican families came through but never settled. They were "migrant workers" who did summer farm work. Their children were shunned in schools. I knew one black girl, adopted by a pastor's family, during this period.

This virtually mono-cultural situation (despite being composed of immigrants from a variety of Northern European countries with old tribal resentments and angers between them and some distinctly differing habits of life) was not "accidental" or simply the result of "hard work." Yes, the farmers who survived there worked hard. Damned hard. I worked on the farm from age 4. It was not easy.

Their success is my legacy. Although the farm is being eaten up by the bills required to keep my grandmother who is dying in a nursing home alive, I inherited a happy sense that I could achieve through hard work. That a college education would help me--was possible. How did I get that sense? Obviously through their hard work and the success that came from it. But I can see, when I take a step back and look at the broader picture, that their success there was _possible_ because of institutionalized racism and the legacy of policies that favored northern Europeans: my grandpa conceived of this land as the land of "opportunity" because he was white and from Northern Europe. If he had been poor and from China or Africa he couldn't have had this concept at the time. Was he "evil" or should he feel "guilty" because of that? No. That's useless.

Why was the U.S. the land of opportunity for him? The land he lived on was cleared, in a deliberately and unveiled racist campaign that gained particular intensity under Andrew Jackson. That "manifest destiny" was a destiny that was shaped as "available" for men like my grandpa. But not for men and women of other ethnicities.

He received help from his neighbors. Sharing equipment, especially during the depression. And in 1997, the USDA admitted to actively practicing racism, since its inception. My family wouldn't have survived without the U.S.D.A. policies that (formerly) protected and helped family farms to flourish.

My grandpa was a sweet man who suffered from Alzheimers the last years of his life. He died in 2000. In the early stages of the disease, it seems to move you back through time, to earlier periods in your life. Part of the time he thought he saw me at the train station when he had first arrived. And he talked on and on about "darkies," in a way that he had never done before.

I love my grandpa. I don't believe he's a "terrible" person. He was as generous and as loving as the day is long and gave lots of money to his church and various good causes and he never lied on his tax returns and always felt grateful to this country and all it had given him.

Was he racist? That question does feel in some ways useless to me: yes he benefited from often invisible policies that were clearly racist in their effects, although many of the men (mostly men, then) operating in them were "good guys" like grandpa. But even grandpa has his dark side. (It feels vaguely like thinking about the fact that my parents had sex. Something in the brain runs away from that knowledge.)

The question is not about whether I should feel "guilty" for this history, or whether you should. No more than I should feel "guilty" for not getting in a car accident and dying at the age of 6. For me, it's a question of how do I use the privileges and power that this history, whether I deserve it or not, gave me?

alas
 
 
Outlaw
23:37 / 23.05.03
Ala said: But I can see, when I take a step back and look at the broader picture, that their success there was _possible_ because of institutionalized racism and the legacy of policies that favored northern Europeans:

If you want to believe that, go ahead. Was that time period unfair to people based upon race, sure. Was it wrong, yes. Were our ancestors racist, probalby. My grandparents (mothers side) met at a clan meeting family folklore says. Did they enjoy success because of a racist environment? I totaly disagree. The opportunity may have been there because farmland was easier to get and neighbors were nicer if you were white. But had they sat on thier asses and waited for a handout the success would not have come.

Does that mean it's that way today? I realy dont think so. Some people are racist today, but I dont think enough share that backward view to make a factual claim that there is a climate of pasive racism today that limits the acheivement of minorities. Especialy when you look at the enormous success enjoyed by most minority groups and by certain members of other groups that as a whole have not done as well.

You run out of fingers counting the wildly successful minority people today. Even ignoring those who are successful in athletics, look at the number of doctors, lawyers, engineers, physiscists, etc.. who are minorities. Look at the number of minority owned busiensses in this country.

How can we be holding them back when they are doing so well?

Outlaw
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
02:50 / 24.05.03
I personally think that (from a white middle/working class division perspective), that if any social progress is to be developed it should be on a: Meritocratic, Communist or Tribal ground. These seem to be the most persistent and structurally sound methods of organising society. Centralised Government based on majority is doomed to failure. The “masses” know fuck all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:20 / 24.05.03
I don't see how that's relevant, Panarchy. Do you mean that you don't feel democracies will ever have full racial and gender equality, and that a tribal system would do this better? If you are primarily interested in discussing the relative merits of dmeocracy and tribalism/communism, then there's a thread tailor-made for it.

Outlaw. I'm afraid you've lost me. Black people - let's stick to black people for the moment, since it seems easier - do not succeed because they lack a work ethic. Unlike Alas' parents, say. If Alas' parents had been black, their failure would not have been as a result of their colour but a result of their lack of a work ethic. But black people *do* succeed, so there obviously cannot be any racist structures or effects in American society. Are these successes mutants?
 
 
Outlaw
12:33 / 24.05.03
Haus, I think you are being purposefully obtuse.

How can there be institutionalzed racism when minorities do succede in America? Those who fail in American tend to lack a work ethic. Those people are from all races and ethnic groups. However the distribution of low work ethic types is not even across all groups, thus we should look at what causes that instead of trying to blame the majority for oppresing them.

To simplify, in deferance to you Huas, crying racism at every failure of a minority person clouds the real issue of why the failure occured. If we (and here I mean soicety) dont solve the real problems associated with those "failures" then those people will remain on welfare and their children will pick up the same bad habits and the next generation is lost as well.

Now, I need to get off my butt and work.

Outlaw
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:58 / 24.05.03
Those who fail in American tend to lack a work ethic. Those people are from all races and ethnic groups. However the distribution of low work ethic types is not even across all groups, thus we should look at what causes that instead of trying to blame the majority for oppresing them.

Right. so the key factor in whether or not one succeeds in America is whether or not one has a work ethic and how much of a work ethic there is in you. So, say, Michael Jordan has a very big work ethic, and has therefore been very successful. Ted Turner has a very big work ethic, and as such has been very successful. Somebody like you or I has a smaller work ethic, so is not so successful, but still has more of a work ethic than somebody on welfare, or somebody working in MacDonald's, or somebody who didn't finish high school.

That all makes perfect sense. Now, not as many black people have enough work ethic to be successful as do white people, or asian people. This is in America, of course, although perhaps the mess that much of Africa is currently in is as a result of the low work ethic of its inhabitants - what do you think?

Now, back to America. There are reasons why black people generally have low work ethics, beyond their simple blackness. That is, there is no racial component to a low work ethic, and yet low work ethic appears to be concentrated in the more vigorously tan areas of the polity. So, these reasons must be external to their race. However, they also have nothing to do with the actions upon them of society, in terms of employment or treatment or distribution of wealth. So, could you fill us in on what these non-racial but also non-societal causes for this uncharacteristic predominance of low work ethic are?

So far you have pointed out the failing of "family values", by which you appear to mean possessing a two-parent family. Interestingly, passe also identifies this as a terrible problem caused by the etiolation of opportunity in the black community, and you appear to see it as a cause of low work ethic in the black community. But what, in that case, is the cause of he absence of fathers? A low work ethic when it comes to parenting?
 
 
alas
14:26 / 24.05.03
Outlaw: If I understand you correctly, you believe that individual decisions contribute strongly to people's economic situations. Some people make "good" decisions--especially the decision to "work hard"--while others make "bad" decisions. These people decide to give up and be lazy and blame other people, especially white people, for their problems. They, you feel, are trying to make you feel guilty so you will give them a handout, rather than just knuckling down and working for a living. This strikes you as useless, at best, and unfair to people like you and me. Lots of black people, looking for an easy way out, to your way of thinking, would rather talk about racism rather than getting up and working on their problems. The ones who get out of poverty are those who avoid worrying about racism and just get on with life. This is why lots of black people are poor--they spend too much time whining and not enough time working.

I hope that that is a fair summary of your point. Now, I would like to make a request: the phrase "crying racism" is annoying. I will avoid saying you are "crying about other people's laziness." Will you please avoid the phrase "crying racism"? Thanks.

Now, I want to deal with one specific point you made. You say: The opportunity may have been there because farmland was easier to get and neighbors were nicer if you were white. But had they sat on thier asses and waited for a handout the success would not have come.

You could not get the farmland in Iowa if you were black. The farmland itself was a handout in many ways, under the Homestead Act, as were the farm subsidies that came after, and these were available for European immigrants exclusively, and their heirs. Through 1997. Yes, those white folks still had to work hard. But there were invisible props available to them. Props conveniently pulled out at just about the same time that the the USDA admitted to practicing overt racism. There are fewer and fewer farmers generally, because the whole agribusiness sector is being bought out by massive multinational corporations (Archer Daniels Midland, Monsanto, IBP, Cargill, and a few others), so there's no need to worry about dividing poor white farmers from poor black farmers any more. You can work hard from sunup to sundown on a farm and not make enough money to pay back your expenses. Whose interests are being served? (Not consumers, by the way--the profits are being swallowed by CEOs and the big investors, not by the people buying Wheaties.)

Fact: White people have been receiving handouts from our government for a long time. We just didn't call them "handouts" when they were available almost exclusively for white people. When people of color start receiving them, and this includes welfare, which also was initially available only to white women who stayed at home with their children, then legitimate sources of governmental assistance have become tainted by the label of "handout." This has happened over and over again, in a variety of governement programs. I would argue that it's why we, unlike the European countries from which many of our forebearers came from, do not have universal medical coverage. Maybe now that most of the wealth is being concentrated into a few hands, we'll start to see the way racism has damaged all of us, kept us fighting against our natural allies.

So let's move out of race, then, for a moment, and think about the way larger social and economic structures work. I'm interested in the notion of 'work ethic.' The hardest working people I know are poor people. Rich people generally don't have to work very hard--and more than 5/6ths of them never did. (I believe that's the correct stat, but you might want to check me on it.) Most of them, like some of the great writers of the 20th century--William S. Borroughs, Gertrude Stein, etc., were trust fund kids. The Kennedys. George W. Bush is a prime example of someone who has never really had to work, and he has lost billions of dollars in bad investments, most of it not his. And then wealthy friends came along with more handouts the next time he'd get a hare-brained scheme. This is all public record, but there's an excellent article from Harper's I could recommend to you, if you're interested.

Particularly today, hard work is mainly for those who will almost certainly remain poor most of their lives. Yet 40% of Americans believe they are or soon will be in the top 5% of the income bracket. Only 1 in 5 people making in the six figures or above is exceeding their parents' incomes in real dollars. Whose interests are served by this idea?

There are strong economic and class structures in place that maintain the status quo. Yes there are exceptions--a few poor people "done good." And, yes, if we turn back to race more overtly again, Asian Americans would seem to be "exceptions," on the face of it, and they certainly carry with them a cultural mythology of being smarter, more dedicated than white folks. If you look at the stats about Asian Americans more closely, however, you will find that their income is lower than white Americans. The sweatshops in Los Angeles and New York are still filled with Asian women, and their incomes must be included in statistical analyses. Many Asian families live with more than 2 bread winners under their roof, even in the U.S. I know you are not going to believe this, but they still often face a glass ceiling, particularly in jobs that require "people skills"--i.e., management--because they're assumed to be silent, hardworking, tech-heads. What it boils down to, is that the notion of them as a "model minority" is a double-edged sword, that's used to shame poor whites and other poorer ethnic groups in the U.S., into being reconvinced that their poverty stems from "laziness." Whose interests, again, are being served?

But by asking about whose interests are served, I'm not saying there's a conscious conspiracy at work. As Nietzsche, one of my favorited dead white guys says, there is no great big spider of causation, some God-like power behind the scenes. When he said God is dead, he meant simple causation--simple Big Man Behind The Curtain Controlling It All was not a useful or accurate way of seeing things. I don't think that this structure is the product of some smoke-filled room somewhere with evil white men plotting to keep the dark people down.

It is a product of they way power works when you have small groups of people who have, by hook or by crook, gained control over vast amounts of wealth in a society that is ideologically based on notions of equality and freedom, ideals that make us all feel really good about ourselves if we can conceive ourselves readily has having had equal treatment before the law and relative freedom. But when, despite democratic pretensions, a small group has access to creating and changing the rules by which the game of distributing wealth is played, AND access to determining how those are enforced by governmental and nongovernmental agencies, the people will by and large either get angry and want a revolution, or they'll develop a false consciousness.

Most normative U.S. citizens, regardless of race, don't really want a revolution, and for good reason. We see the crumbs we're getting off the table as pretty good. And they're bigger than the ones those folks in the ghetto are getting. And we are raised in the need to believe that hard work will get us ahead, and we need to interpret our own social standing as being "above average" or potentially above average. And so we do. Meanwhile, the top 225 wealthiest people in the world now control more than the wealth controlled by the bottom 50% of the world's population--3 billion people. That's not an accident. We'd like to believe we're closer to those top 225 people. That would be a product of false consciousness. Because we're not.

Think about it, if we really believed that hard work was the way out, rich kids would be going to ghetto schools and learning to survive on their own. They'd not have health-care coverage, because they'd learn more self-reliance.

In the big picture, struggle is not what gets large numbers of people ahead in life. Having structures in place that are designed to be readily available to you and which you are being trained to take advantage of is what makes most people succeed. Those structures are invisible, generally, to the recipients.

It's a cop out to see everyone who doesn't succeed as lazy. And ultimately it doesn't serve your interests, unless you happen to be one of those 225 people in the world who control over half of the world's wealth. I think you know that, at some level.

alas.
 
 
No star here laces
07:14 / 27.05.03
As an addendum to Alas' (excellent) post - I'd point out that economic mobility (as measured by the percentage of individuals born into the richest group, but ending up in the poorest group, and vice versa) has been decreasing in both the US and the UK for the best part of two decades. This coincides precisely with an increase in inequality in both those countries. This is clearly not accidental - if individuals are less economically mobile then inequality will increase as money always accumulates more money.

Owing to historic racism and the legacy of slavery, the black community began this period of history as poorer, on average, than the white community. Given the bare economic facts for this period, it is not necessary to refer to racism in order to explain why black people as a group have failed to acheive equality with whites, despite the decrease in racist attitudes in this time period. (Racism has been steadily falling in most polls due to inter-cohort effects as the older, more incorrigibly racist generations die out).

It would also be fair to point out that asian populations have been more upwardly mobile economically than black populations, but that certainly in the UK, often also represent the poorest ethnic segment in terms of actual mean income. This is because recent immigrant populations always tend to be poorer than second or third generation commmunities, owing to obvious factors.

This paradox is conventionally explained by the theory that recently arrived populations form mutually supportive communities complete with strong family ties that help them get ahead of the curve economically. This is a phenomenon absent from the black community in the US because they did not, of course, arrive either recently or through immigration.

The fallacy that this exposes in terms of government policy is that it is ever possible to think about "equality of opportunity" in a meaningful way. These shifts in society coincide (not accidentally IMHO) with the rise of neoliberal economic theory. Thus in this period governments have been systematically dismantling redistributive systems in their countries in favour of a "level playing field" for competition. In other words to give everyone an equal chance at 'making it'.

Of course the trouble is that no matter what you do to try to help poor people give their kids a good start in life, it will ultimately be futile. Because as long as 'doing well' requires competitive success, rich people will always be able to buy their kids a better start (cf private education). So, in summary, I'd argue that it is economic effects and not specifically racist ones that have led to this situation...
 
 
nowthink
01:55 / 06.06.03
I think everyone has spoken quite brilliantly on this subject but allow me to inject a little reality into this.
Being a 'black' male in america who has experienced real racism in multi-cultural situations as well as segregated ones I would like to state that the only thing that defines racism are the terms "white" and "black". Let's examine the two.

Most "white" people who readily and eagerly adopt this terminology to describe themselves are usually descendants of people who at one time or another in america were considered 'minorities'; Irish, Italian, Jewish, etc. Even latinos who are rightfully descendents of native americans and or mayan/azteca/ will for the sake of professionalism and corporate gain identify themselves with "white".

What defines "white" people? The answer is quite obvious. Skin color, hair, and more specifically ethnic traits such as pointy nose (as opposed to broad flat nose) can be pointed to.

Who benefits from the classification of being "white"? Obviously those who can more easily assimilate themselves to these qualities of straight hair, fair skin and the like. Also those who eschew the practice of speaking ebonics for the more acceptable dude speak or cockney dialect if you happen to be in the U.K or australia.

Who are the blacks? Obviously those with kinky hair, flat noses and thick lips and dark skin. But more importantly it's the hair that nails it. Because most upwardly mobile asians that I know with long stringy black hair can naturally assimilate with their white counterparts whereas I who have nappy hair am obviously different.

Is there racism in the world as we know it? Of course. It's only been about 30 years since the civil rights movement and as we all know racism has more to do with economic advantage and privelege than it does with individual prejudices such as why you hate those niggers.
If there was true equality there wouldn't even be a need to have this discussion.

I can talk ad nauseum about this but I just wanted to let you know the root of the problem. Those who can pass for "white" are in, those who can't get to complain about "racism."

Think about it.
 
 
Quantum
07:58 / 06.06.03
racism has more to do with economic advantage and privelege than it does with individual prejudices
Modern racism we could call it. Less burning crosses, more economic oppression, opportunities not offered, almost a 'passive' racism- more about what is not done that should be.

Gotta say I don't understand the protestant work ethic thing at all. Success is partly hard work but just as much luck, ability and opportunity. Loads of people work like dogs and get nowhere, black and white alike.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:54 / 06.06.03
Certainly the idea that work ethic is key seems curious. However:

Modern racism we could call it. Less burning crosses, more economic oppression, opportunities not offered, almost a 'passive' racism- more about what is not done that should be.

Quants, I'm wondering how this ties in with your belief that the battles against racism and sexism have been won? Only, it occurs to me that if this is the case then we should see the economic oppression, shortage of opportunities and so on being rolled back every moment... have I misunderstood somewhere?
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:05 / 06.06.03
One might argue that racism is subsumed by essentially class issues, I suppose. The entrenchment of economic hierarchies would affect those populations who had previously been subject to discrimination, disproportionately.

This type of explanation goes some way to explaining passive and institutional racism.
 
 
Quantum
13:45 / 06.06.03
Quants, I'm wondering how this ties in with your belief that the battles against racism and sexism have been won?
I don't believe that. I believe that my immediate social circle aren't racist or sexist (else I'd slap them) but IMO the racism that exists presently is much more insidious and harder to identify, much less combat (cf. clever people can't be racist thread). I rarely see people being overtly racist or using racist language but I often see (or hear about) people behaving in a subtly racist way, sometimes (often?) without realising they're doing it.
I do think our generation (by which I mean young adults in the west) is less racist and sexist than previous generations, and I think that tendency will continue into the future. Maybe I'm optimistic.

I don't think the battle has been won, I think the battlefield has changed. Lurid has an excellent point above, people discriminate on grounds of economic prosperity/class/education, and that indirect discrimination is much more difficult to fight.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:09 / 06.06.03
Ah, I see - misunderstood you. So you mean that members of the ecucated white male middle classes are no longer thinking of black people, women and others who lack a good work ethic as inferior, but are still *acting* as if they are, becasue that's how society is set up.

And those runnels are pretty deeply entrenched. I'm thinking about my college here - I was a classicist, and...hmmm. There were five other classicists in my year, so about 35 classicists in my time at the college (3 years above me, 3 years below me). Now, I don't recall one of them being black (as in Black British, using nowwish's definition). I don't recall *meeting* a Black British classicist in my time at university, offhand. You see what I mean? Now, the Outlaw version would presumably be that black people just don't have the work ethic to study classics. With a bit more granularity, one might say that there is no culture of sending children of Black British families to study classics. Now, is that a failing that needs to be addressed, or an efflorescence of good sense in the black community? Or, as Leap might have it, a different set of priorities?
 
 
Quantum
14:51 / 06.06.03
Ah, I see...fishcakes...that's how society is set up.
No, I'm saying racism is declining and the racism that remains is now more often underground, implicit and indirect instead of overt, explicit and direct. There are still racists who go out and attack minorities (BNP in Oldham for example) but there are many more who give the job to a white man instead of a black woman (say) and justify it to themselves as something else. Same holds for discrimination based on ages, sexual preference, disability etc.

But maybe it's just because I moved away from London to Hampshire and don't see the same sort of racial tension because almost everyone is middle class and white. Bleurgh. Cultural homogoneity sucks. I'm happy to back down and say the world is still full of racists/sexists etc. but I think it's valid to say there's a rise in indirect discrimination as a response to the 'tabooing' of overtly discriminating behaviour.

On the classics front, I doubt there were many working class, gay or female classicists, am I right? There is an element of self selection in these trends, but that stems from the perceived barriers I suspect (the mountaintop infested with snakes). Difficult to tease out which factors are most influential I think, family expectations, perceived gender role, the notion of things being 'below' or 'above' one's station (to use the Victorian expression). There is a hangover from the grammar schools system too of course...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:01 / 06.06.03
On the classics front, I doubt there were many working class, gay or female classicists, am I right?

Not.....many.....gay.....classicists.

I'm sorry, but I have actually just popped my liver laughing.

Otherwise - the split on gender in my year was 50/50, but that may not have been reflected across the entire student body - I don't have the statistics, but it *seemed* about half and half, certainly in the years below...class I couldn't really comment on - I've never really understood how you tell - but I would say probably that the majority were middle class, probably the vast majority, but whether that was more so than other subjects in the same place I don't know...

Now, what interests me (and what informed my "fishcakes") is that we've got this situation where very few people from particular groups are represented in particular areas, which can be seen as motivated by both race and class. For example, there are, at a wild guess, probably more black Africans than Black British students in the UK's top public schools. The teachers and governors could say that they are more than happy to consider applications from Black British students - in fact, they would welcome more Black British students, since they keep getting flask for not having any - but they just don't get enough suitable applications. And what could be more insulting than a quota system?

Point being, that here you have people who could not only claim not to be racist, who may in fact not *be* racist, who are nonetheless perpetuating racist systems within racist systems, and thus that it is in fact possible to bleach out every inch of racial motivation and still have the machine churning out functionally racist actions...

But I seem to have misunderstood your beliefs, which are it seems more that racism, although it manifests itself differently to the manner in which it might have a decade ago, for reasons both social and legal, remains undimmed, but might not be represented even to those perpetrating it by themselves as racist action. Which seems reasonable, and makes the problem yet more insidious.
 
 
passer
16:24 / 06.06.03

I'm here to represent the American, black, female, and gay (in broad including bi-sexual sense), working class classicists. Of course I'm the only one I know, but I do know a few black classicists. Oddly enough, my entire graduating class was non-white. All four of us. *sigh*
Substance to follow later...
 
 
passer
03:18 / 07.06.03
Nothing better than trying to write while exhausted as a means to try to stay awake...
Attempt 1 at substance:

I think economic class is certainly a major contributing factor, but I also think it’s used as a cover for what is racism. To borrow terminology from Haus, functionally racist actions are still racist. It simply makes it harder to trace and combat the racism behind the actions once you've been misdirected into thinking that it's all class issues or education issues.

Let's take the example of educational performance. Even within the same socio-economic levels, at least here in the U.S., there is a significant performance gap between white and black and even between black males and black females. These kids all come from the same place and attend the same schools, yet the discrepancy is still there. Now, those that say “hey, I'm not racist and I don't think people are racist” are going to say it's a cultural thing and try very, very hard to leave it at that. You'll hear that "they value family more," "they're nurturing," blah, blah, blah. But it all comes down to the same thing. "These" people do it to themselves and greater issues have nothing to do with it. Therefore, my work as a compassionate person is done because I help those that want to be helped.

There used to be a day when people would come right out and say it: it's just that blacks, Latinos, women, and what have you are lazy and stupid. I'm always struck by how closely these differing “cultural values” always seem to mimic (in the nicest possible way, of course) the most derogatory stereotypes. You can polish it all you want, but it's still only going to be a nice pile of shit.

The flip side of this is that any one who goes out of their way to combat these stereotypes is patted on the head and told of very patronizingly, "of course, black is beautiful; we don't think Asian women are submissive; woman are not sex objects" and so on and so forth, ad nasueam. If the protests continue, you're crazy and paranoid for saying that people think these things. The people you're talking about never say these things, so why would you think that they believe them, silly crazy person. Oh, and some of their best friends are this and that.

There's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance. All too often, that dissonance muddies the water to the extent that people can clearly see the racism, sexism, etc. all around themselves, point it out to you with concrete and immediate examples, but still internalize all the stereotypes that make that racism possible without batting an eyelash. As I mentioned before, I work with your stereotypical poor, urban student population. One of the most common and horrifying statements I hear them utter is "you know how black people are" anytime something goes wrong regardless of fault when a minority is involved.
 
 
Quantum
09:33 / 09.06.03
Not.....many.....gay.....classicists.
Hmm, thinking about it now perhaps that was a bad example...

..racism, although it manifests itself differently to the manner in which it might have a decade ago, for reasons both social and legal, remains undimmed, but might not be represented even to those perpetrating it by themselves as racist action.
Oui monsieur, c'est vrais.

..perpetuating racist systems..
That's the difficult part, how (and how much) do you change the racist system? Any compensatory bias will be seen as positive discrimination, any structurally fair system wouldn't counteract the implicit/indirect racism, is there a solution?

Passer- hear hear. The fundamental attribution error is relevant here I think, whereby the attribution of blame is internal or external. For example, if I trip down the stairs then the stairs were slippery, if someone else trips they are clumsy. If I make snap judgements based on prejudice or stereotypes I am 'utilising heuristic techniques'- other people who do it are being racist.
This error is magnified according to perceived closeness to the person (my psych lecturer taught us) so if your mom trips you are more likely to say 'slippery' but if your worst enemy trips you are more likely to say 'clumsy' (and also laugh with glee). This closeness scale goes self-family-tribe/nation-culture/race. So the unconscious racist naturally ascribes errors as internal to the minority person rather than to their environment, exactly as you describe, because they don't perceive themselves as one of 'us' but as one of 'them'. Even though this behaviour is preconscious, it's still racist.

And that's the sort of behaviour that keeps CEOs white old men- unintentional, sometimes even well-meaning discrimination that is built into the fabric of our society. How do we get it out?
 
 
pomegranate
15:05 / 09.06.03
if I trip down the stairs then the stairs were slippery, if someone else trips they are clumsy
very well put.
 
 
diz
18:28 / 09.06.03
The hardest working people I know are poor people.

abso-freaking-lutely! i worked at a Burger King in high school, at a bunch of food service and retail jobs in college, and now i work in a white-collar environment, and it is utterly baffling to me that otherwise intelligent people regurgitate the fiction that success in America is primarily a function of work ethic as though it were an obvious truth.

the further up the ladder i've gone, generally speaking, the less hard people have had to work to get a foot in the door. most people in white collar jobs come from white, middle-class, suburban families, and were basically born into a position where they would have had to really fuck up severely to not succeed. this most definitely includes me: i have worked hard, but i am damn lucky that i was born into a situation where hard work actually translated into something worthwhile.

on the other hand, the people i worked with in Burger King were generally from low-income backgrounds, and most of them absolutely busted their asses. this was especially true of the people who weren't kids like me, but were actually trying to make ends meet on a food service paycheck. most of them worked a lot of overtime or had to get second jobs to pay the bills. not because they weren't willing to work hard, but because the opportunities just weren't there. they could work as hard as they liked, but it just wasn't going to happen for them.
 
  

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