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Chuck Austen Speaks!

 
  

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The Photographer in Blowup
19:43 / 26.04.03
I've read it possibly in its entirety - from that issue about Vindix coming to America to take Wolverine back to Canada, to Nightcrawler's birthday party gone wrong with a trip to Dante's hell in the mix, to Collosus' sister going to Limbo, to the funeral of Phoenix, and way beyond. And don't start me with Arcade and his freaking games.

So yes, i know what i'm talking about. Perhaps you just have an emotional attachment to Claremont's run, or i'm just too grim for his whinny soap opera and thought balloons and endless narrative boxes, but i don't get the enjoyment from his run that i'm getting from Morrison's, and finally have a sense the whole book is going somewhere.


The soap opera stuff, the structure of the storylines (one story jumps into the next one, dangling plotlines that get resolved a year or so later), the characterization, interests in similar themes.

You could just be describing any Marvel title in the past 40 years, since Lee and Kirby introduced continuity: even Fantastic Four is a soap opera, stories jump into another and so on...

The subtext is the same - they are working to make the world safe, but there isn't much they can do. They do what they can, like anyone else. This isn't the Authority, the X-Men aren't fascists or terrorists. They have their school, they do their superhero thing. That's a lot.

I'm not talking about them becoming fascists - but it's about time they become more involved: like going public and opening X-corporations over the world.

Yeah, but they were there. It sounds silly to argue this, but let's pretend this is real - why would the X-Men, who are supposed to be good upstanding people say "ah, that's not our jurisdiction. We only care about mutant stuff. Tough luck."

But they shouldn't even be in space; they shouldn't be dealing with a creature like Phoenix: Claremont should have never created the Phoenix mythos in the X-Men; it didn't fit in the premise. Claremont wanted to tell it, should have waited for a chance at the Fantastic Four.

I'm not saying that the X-Men shouldn't have stopped Phoenix: but that threat shouldn't have existed in a comic book about mutant/human relationship and conflict. It just doesn't fit in the storyline.

Like Laurence says, the New fucking Mutants. The New Mutants were a regular presence is the Uncanny X-Men back in the early 80s in the same kind of supporting role that the current kids are. The class-size was much smaller, but it has been established that there are more and more mutants now, and the school needs to be bigger. Also, the Xavier school wasn't the only school for mutants back then - Emma's Massachusetts Academy was still going strong at the time.

The New Mutants were just a spin-off title, with the only purpose of making money, which is fine with me, about the kids having their own adventures; they didn't have the background presence hundreds of students have. It rarely dealth with their mutant education and training: most of the time they were in other worlds and dimensions. Same goes for Gen X and Emma's school.

Oh, right. Like the Mummudrai mumbo jumbo. And the Phoenix.

No, like Sentinels killing 16 million mutants; a genetic trigger in human DNA that will extinguish human life in a few generations; angry mutant kids doubting the 'dream'

When Claremont addressed the mutant issues, it was in a very generic way: there is a shadowy governmental organisation and it's going to kill all mutants, put them in prison. So for once he gave it a twist and sent the X-men to fight Sentinels and Stephen Lang in a space platform: same story that gave us Phoenix.

Grant's X-Men seem pretty depressed to me - they aren't constantly whining in melodramatic interior monologues, but that's really just one of Claremont's annoying stylistic quirks which have developed over time. As you go further back though Chris's writing, you'll find that he didn't really do that sort of thing very often at the series best. (Which, in my opinion, is the Paul Smith and John Romita Jr. runs.)

Depressed? How can you say that? A depressing issue is one with Kitty Pride fighting a Demon on Christmas' eve all alone in the mansion: that was depressing for me.

I see them a lot cheerful - perhpas committed is the word, though; they're committed to their cause, and more focused.

Well, I could go on all day, but the biggest one is the Phoenix.

It's a question of choice though, isn't it? Morrison chose to do a follow up to the Phoenix story: he could just have avoided mentioning it, if he wanted, and it wouldn't have hurt his run. It's not like he couldn't find more material for his stories. So i don't see it as owing to Claremont; i see it more as compliment, in fact.



I think i've seen what's the problem with X-men and related titles: it's never going to end.

Books like Preacher, Sandman, Transmetropolitan follow the basic storyline: beginning, middle, ending. They're committed to tell a story - just like X-Men; in it's case, mutant/human relationship - and go on to tell it as long as there's a story. It might take 66 or 75 issues, but Ennis and Gaiman knew they would sooner or later have to end it. They strayed a bit - Ennis more than Gaiman, i think - but eventually told a whole story down to its logical conclusion.

But X-men: it just lasts forever. It has the problem of being a superhero mainstream title with a premise: Fantastic Four, Avengers, Spiderman - those can just go on forever because they're all about one thing: fighting crime. X-men is beyond that: they have a goal to achieve and should achieve it one day, but have been on it for 40 years. Since they're the highest selling comic book, they can't just end with the humans and mutants getting along at last.

It will just go on until the industry collapses and some fill in writer like Austen has 3 issues to wrap up 40 years of storytelling with some deus ex machina... if they're ever that lucky.

So it's pointless after all for me to be here thinking Morrison's run is better than Claremont's: one day some idiot will think about a way to pretend the Genosha massacre never happened, or creating a way of some villain inducing a global brainwashing that will make the world forget the X-men ever went public so they can go back to their former status quo - perhaps even back to Australia, catch up with Roma and the Adversary again - and bring Magneto back, and invent a way to stop that DNA trigger to kill humanity, and still paying compliments to Claremont by making another rehash of Phoenix...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:14 / 26.04.03
I'll simplify my argument for the sake of time:

Dude, why do you even bother?
 
 
some guy
20:21 / 26.04.03
You could just be describing any Marvel title in the past 40 years, since Lee and Kirby introduced continuity: even Fantastic Four is a soap opera, stories jump into another and so on...

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a comic historian who doesn't credit the early Claremont days as revolutionizing comic storytelling, actually.

But they shouldn't even be in space; they shouldn't be dealing with a creature like Phoenix

What about the Imperial arc? What about Grant's use of the Phoenix?

that threat shouldn't have existed in a comic book about mutant/human relationship and conflict. It just doesn't fit in the storyline.

First of all, there's no X-Men mission statement that says the book is about mutant/human relationships and nothing else. Secondly, the Phoenix storyline was actually very important to this theme, because it A) put the X-Men in the "human" role and B) explored the effect of absolute mutant power. If anything, Phoenix made the X-Men even more interested in human issues.

The New Mutants were just a spin-off title, with the only purpose of making money, which is fine with me, about the kids having their own adventures; they didn't have the background presence hundreds of students have.

You don't know the purpose of The New Mutants was purely a financial move, so you can drop that nonsense. The question of how many students should be in the school is purely aesthetic; how would they have gotten hundreds of mutants back in the days when they were much rarer, and all in the closet? The students also materially impacted the parent title - notably Storm and Magneto, but also a larger sense of responsibility (the NM characters pop up in the background of several UXM issues ... just as Grant's students do).

When Claremont addressed the mutant issues, it was in a very generic way: there is a shadowy governmental organisation and it's going to kill all mutants, put them in prison.

So you haven't read his complete run then...

Depressed? How can you say that? A depressing issue is one with Kitty Pride fighting a Demon on Christmas' eve all alone in the mansion: that was depressing for me.

I think what Flux is saying is that Claremont's X-Men were a family; for the most part, they were happy with themselves. Grant's X-Men are being torn apart from the inside.

They strayed a bit - Ennis more than Gaiman, i think - but eventually told a whole story down to its logical conclusion.

I think Claremont actually did this: UXM 94 to UXM 228 is a single story that reaches its logical conclusion. The mistake was keeping the series going past that point ... but even then, so what? It allowed Grant to come on board and tell his story.

X-men is beyond that: they have a goal to achieve and should achieve it one day, but have been on it for 40 years. Since they're the highest selling comic book, they can't just end with the humans and mutants getting along at last.

It also wouldn't be very realistic, would it? Do you think MLK is a failure because black/white integration in the US hasn't reached 100%?

invent a way to stop that DNA trigger to kill humanity

I suspect Grant will do this on his own...
 
 
CameronStewart
21:35 / 26.04.03
I'm actually with deus ex - I was never interested in The X-Men when I was younger precisely because of the "everything-and-the-kitchen-sink" approach Claremont took. The Shi'ar and the Brood and the Savage Land and all of that was just ridiculous nonsense, straying far and unnecessarily away from the central premise of the X-Men - Charles Xavier having an alien girlfriend and taking his team on adventures through space is just as pointless and irrelevant as having Batman solve crimes on the moon, or having Mulder and Scully travel to the aliens' homeworld and trade in their FBI badges for rocketpacks and rayguns.

I was thrilled with E For Extinction because it seemed to be a stripped-down, back-to-basics approach to The X-Men and it WORKED, dammit. I let out a great sigh of disappointment when the Shi'Ar popped up and the Imperial storyline began...
 
 
moriarty
22:22 / 26.04.03
Damn it, Cameron, you beat me to it. Though for this you should be strung up by your toes.

"...just as pointless and irrelevant as having Batman solve crimes on the moon...

Batman is all about solving crimes on the moon.

I don't agree with Deus Ex about Morrison not taking Claremont's ball and running with it. I do think that Morrison has taken many interesting elements that were in place in previous X-Men comics that, while present, were ignored or barely touched on, and has elaborated on them wonderfully. He's taken the team to the next into the next logical progression, which struck home when someone said of Cyclops that he had the assured walk of a mutant, something I would never have dreamt of seeing earlier. Their confident attitude reflects the years of training and hardship they put in to overcome society's view of mutants.

I completely agree with both Deus Ex and Cameron on the more interstellar aspects of the X-Men. When I did my Great Spring Comics Purge last month, those were the first to go. Someone said on a different thread that they would like to see, say, Dr. Doom in a story. I remember an issue of X-men where they faced Dr. Doom, only to find out that they were getting their asses kicked by a Doombot. Meanwhile, in previous issues they were major combatants in intergalactic warfare. I always preferred the former style of story, where despite being powerful mutants, they were also small fry in comparison to the major players in the Marvel Universe. One long standing theory is that Iron Man could single-handedly defeat the entire team. Though this was originally used as an insult ("my favourite superhero can beat all of yours"), I think this is one of the things that made the X-Men so appealing. They weren't just outcasts in human society, they are less regarded among superheroes as well (another great example of this is Spider-man).

That said, my only exposure to Morrison's X-Men is through my brother's copies, and he's left for another country. While good, I don't think I'll be picking it up myself. The main appeal of the X-Men for me were the issues where, before the carnage started, the team would go to the bar, or where you'd see Wolverine jogging or drinking a cup of coffee, or Storm watering her plants. Man, that last sentence looks ridiculous. And that's where I completely disagree with Deus Ex. Claremont played around with many different themes, not just human/mutant relations, and why shouldn't he have?

But, yeah, I don't think Morrison should have to insert any of that into his stories, it's just that I find the current depiction of those characters to be a little cold. There's rarely any downtime, and it seems like some of the characters haven't really had an opportunity to introduce themselves to each other. I'm sure that's part of the point, in that the adult characters are distant and the students provide the emotional content thereby putting ourselves in the story as new students ourselves. Oh, well.
 
 
bio k9
00:11 / 27.04.03
This is the greatest Chuck Austin thread ever!
 
 
moriarty
00:53 / 27.04.03
Says someone who obviously hasn't read many Chuck Austen threads.
 
 
bio k9
01:32 / 27.04.03
Despite the fact that I've never enjoyed a Chuck Austin comic*, I have been following the threads devoted to his work from War Machine to Uncanny X-Men: how I learned to stop worrying and love Chuck Austen.... Now back off or I'll post more pictures of McFarlanes "revamps" of your favorite characters.




*Yes, I've read some.
 
 
moriarty
02:46 / 27.04.03
You think you can intimidate me with that?!?



Think again. I've been to the edge of the abyss more times then you can count.
 
 
bio k9
03:25 / 27.04.03
There was an image here. Its gone now.
 
 
bio k9
03:28 / 27.04.03
Little Nemos next, punk!
 
 
penitentvandal
08:41 / 27.04.03
Iron Man? Fucking Iron Man?

One word: Magneto.
 
 
moriarty
09:01 / 27.04.03
 
 
bio k9
09:08 / 27.04.03
Coming soon to a theatre near you.
 
 
Krug
09:58 / 27.04.03
Claremont isn't fit to sit at Morrison's feet.
 
 
bio k9
10:22 / 27.04.03
Instead I'll sit on his face!

 
 
penitentvandal
12:29 / 27.04.03
So that's what Santa Claus does the other 364 days of the year...
 
 
The Natural Way
14:23 / 27.04.03
As far as I'm concerned, Morrison's building on Claremont's run and that's great. And I'm all for playing to 'core-ideas', but there's always room to fuck off further afield. Y'see. there IS a middle ground here! I suppose I'd largely agree that that's what Grant's been trying to do and, yeah, I think it's probably inarguable that Morrison's X-Men are slightly more pro-active in the "getting out there" stakes.

As for Imperial - it's major theme is evolution..... The whole thing does succeed as a metaphor for how we perceive our 'mutant' offspring/ideas, and how we approach 'the other'. The text admits as much itself (see Xavier's comments about 'evolutionary biomass'). Forget the bloody Shi'ar.
 
 
The Falcon
15:25 / 27.04.03
I thought the Shi'Ar Superguardians served as a reasonable JLA analogue in the arc. Was quite pleased to see 'em, too, remembering the Dark Phoenix saga trade I had as a youngster, until I lent it to a mate and never saw it again.
 
 
CameronStewart
18:03 / 27.04.03
>>>And I'm all for playing to 'core-ideas', but there's always room to fuck off further afield.<<<

Yeah, but I think it seriously weakens the characters and their purpose. It's been established that Batman inhabits a universe in which there are aliens and space-travel, but the idea of Batman in space is - pardon me, Moriarty - fucking idiotic. It's irrelevant to the character. As it is for the X-Men.

I'd go so far as to say that travelling to outer space is the comics equivalent of "jumping the shark" (provided said characters aren't already spacey types). Spider-Man in space: dumb. Green Arrow in space: dumb. X-Men in space: duh-umb.

I realize it's the most popular era of The X-Men but for me it's just entirely wrong-headed and not at all what the characters are about.
 
 
moriarty
18:31 / 27.04.03


Take it back.
 
 
penitentvandal
19:30 / 27.04.03
Also, when Bats was in Grant's JLA, he had to attend meetings on the moon...

Which is in space...

You see.
 
 
Krug
21:19 / 27.04.03
But...but
Space sucks. Cameron hits the nail on the head. The most boring superhero stories are set in space.
I never liked Gran't JLA. But it may be an exception.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
21:33 / 27.04.03
I don't think space stories suck - i'm a geek for all things Green Lantern - but it's obviously not the type of story for every sort of character, i.e. Batman, Spiderman... Daredevil?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:46 / 27.04.03
Daredevil in space. Ack!

I think any hardline anti-superheroes-in-space point of view is flawed if just on the basis of the Fantastic Four, who thrive in outer space and in cosmic zones, with aliens and celestial beings. I think that the FF are one of the best superhero concepts of all time, and this is a crucial part of their premise and appeal.

Not only is this the best Chuck Austen thread ever, it is also a great example of threads going off-topic not being an inherantly bad thing.
 
 
CameronStewart
22:46 / 27.04.03
Repeat:

>>>I'd go so far as to say that travelling to outer space is the comics equivalent of "jumping the shark" (PROVIDED SAID CHARACTERS AREN'T ALREADY SPACEY TYPES).<<<

So no, I don't think all superheroes-in-space stories are bad - just when it's irrelevant to the characters. The Fantastic Four ARE at their best when doing grand cosmic space stuff. The inverse would apply to them - having the FF become urban street vigilantes would be a very bad idea, at odds with the conceptual heart of the series.

X-Men in space: Still dumb.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
23:32 / 27.04.03
Yeah, but when the title's been going on for 10,000 years maybe it gets boring trying to stick to the same mission statement. I mean how many times does Daredevil have to fight the new gang boss of New York, or Kingpin? Eventually the same stories are being told and the only thing different is the technique. Give me Daredevil in space, The Thing battling the mafia, the X-Men becoming media superstars(maybe the only way to totally change the premise is to have a spinoff title like X-Statix). If the story entertains me, or moves me, I don't care if the original premise from 30 years ago is followed.
 
 
CameronStewart
00:35 / 28.04.03
>>>Yeah, but when the title's been going on for 10,000 years maybe it gets boring trying to stick to the same mission statement.<<<

Well, maybe if you're someone who's been reading the adventures of (insert superhero here) for its entire history, it might get boring.

But see, I think that if you've been reading Spider-Man or X-Men or Batman every single month for the last 30 years, there's something wrong with you. If the stories get repetitive to you - GOOD! Fuck off and find something more suited to your new, mature tastes.

Wheee! This thread's careening all over the place. It's like a crazy mine car ride!
 
 
LDones
01:12 / 28.04.03
Not... like... Morrison... JLA!? Madness!

I have to step in and say that 'Batman In Space' is perfect and kicks the imagination in the balls like the best of Golden Age Superman stories - partly for the sheer awesomeness of issue covers like the one above, partly for the fact that it's the last, final stretch for the character - the final frontier of strip-mining that idea, but mostly because it works wonders for fostering the imagination utilizing a character archetype like that.

The best on-going Batman comic in the last 10 years was Morrison's JLA, where Batman shined brighter and more interestingly than he ever did when I was a kid (and I was obsessed when I was a kid - all that shit about Batman getting turned into a vampire by voodoo-induced undead seductresses in some weird Gotham mansion was amazing reading to me, then).

Putting him in space and extra-dimensionally insane situations, staring unflinchingly into the face of the most absurd, extraneous, and galaxy-bending comic-book phenomena, is the pinnacle of that character idea, to me - the best and most successful example I can think of of superheroic absurdity as sharp, honest, authentic amusement. The past 5 years of pseudo-noir stories in Batman comics, in their desire to return Batman to his 'roots', have bored me to tears, but that whole DC 1,000,000 event that Morrison did during his JLA run puts the biggest grin on my face when I read it, with the Batman from the 853rd century's IQ of 1045, and his marital arts techniques taught to him by psychic octopus people from the InfOceans of Durla. Of course it's silly, but it's imaginative, and it erects a playground for minds and imaginations to run wild in.

And though I agree the X-Men are more interesting remaining as terrestrial as possible, I have to say Morrison turned Batman into a superstar again for me, and there's no way that could've occurred without putting his ass in space now and then. [/insane fanboy rant]

I feel like the X-Men (regardless of how many times Xavier ends up confronting Galactus, in space, in the past, with Skrulls) are a lot more about communicating something about being human, and work on that level – Batman’s not really about that, it’s about imagination run wild, just like Superman, or Green Lantern, or the Flash.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
02:44 / 28.04.03
"But see, I think that if you've been reading Spider-Man or X-Men or Batman every single month for the last 30 years, there's something wrong with you. If the stories get repetitive to you - GOOD! Fuck off and find something more suited to your new, mature tastes."- Cameron


But these days it's incredibly easy for a fan who becomes interested in a certain character to read 30 yrs of that material within months thanks to tpb's and back issues. What if I like the character? What If I think the character, Daredevil is really spiffy? I can still be bored with the same fucking story told for the 10th time but using more caption boxes. Morrison's Batman was a perfect example. Even though he was out of his element, he wasn't out of character, and the stories were a lot more fun then "new psycho shows up in Gotham".
 
 
Catjerome
02:55 / 28.04.03
I agree with the "no Batman in space" camp. For me, the appeal of a story isn't just the character - it's also the setting. What kind of setting makes sense for the character(s)? Where are their stories best told? How do they interact with their environments?

That's what drove me nuts about the "Jack in Space" storyline in Starman - it took Jack away from all of the things he interacted with best (Opal City, the supporting cast, his junk-dealing business, etc.). It's not just a matter of having good characters - they need to operate in environments that complement them.

Batman might not be the best example for this kind of argument - he's been around so long that writers have gone to just about every extreme and back on stories and settings for him (Shaman? Dreamland? etc), not to mention all of his other stories as part of JLA.

Maybe ... "John Constantine in Space"?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:46 / 28.04.03
Yeah, Morrison's Batman-in-space was the money!

It all depends on how you play him. He's got the "I am the night!", dark-vigilante-into-breaking-spines thing going on, but there's also the Talia-screwing, hairy-chested superspy Bats..... I dig him, too.

And, anyway, DC's guys are so Greek God-like and archetypal, I think it's okay to boot them out of the earthly sphere occassionaly.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:01 / 28.04.03
I think Batman having adventures in space is very ridiculous, but the Justice League with Batman as a member having adventures in space is perfectly fine, because I think that those Justice League stories aren't really about the Batman concept, they are about the Justice League concept. The Justice League is supposed to be like a crazy fanboy superhero all-star team, and it makes sense for them to do things together that makes no sense.

There are so many Batmen. I think part of the broad appeal of Batman is that the idea of Batman is so elastic and works even when the credibility of the character is extremely warped. It doesn't even need to be Bruce Wayne or the Batman costume - look at the success of Batman Beyond with little kids.

That works for me.
 
 
The Falcon
14:04 / 28.04.03
Milligan's X-Force in space was arguably the defining arc thus far.

Mind you, he does like to parody X-Men and other melodramas rather a lot. I'm thinking of 'in space' as an appropriate place to do better character interactions, divesting them of the accoutrements of background and extended supporting cast (there again, I'm only inclined toward teams in space... JLA in space = cool, Batman alone in space = stupid.) Unless the premise is something like Warlock or Mr. Majestic; Superman should have more intergalactic battles solo, too.

And, with a team, there's got to be a death, too. All alone, spun out in the void...

Poor old Aztek, U-Go Girl and Phoenix. What other heroes have died in space?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:18 / 28.04.03
I think there's an argument to be made (and I may start the thread if I can be bothered) that no-one before Morrison (including Claremont) really had any idea of how to actually show the whole 'Xavier's dream of mutants living side by side with humans' and just stuck with the extermination/domination tropes (is that the right word) because they were the easiest to write. Although Grant hasn't actually achieved much yet, small things like mutant town, mutant clothes designers and the fact that there is now a mutant community in America for human racists to get pissed off with, rather than having to go to oh-so-exotic Madripoor or Genosha is a start.

I'm not dissing Claremont (or anyone else that I've read work), and I've no problem with them doing superheroey stuff, but Claremont's entire premise, and those that followed him, was that things will just get worse, because that's more exciting. I remember that Excalibur %75, I think, had them relaunching themselves, with Nightcrawler doing this rather pompous speech about how they were envisioning Excalibur being 'like the surgeons blade', prising apart a problem. I only read it for about another ten issues but from what action happened they followed exactly the same methodology as before, punching and kicking. And BAMF!ing as well.
 
  

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