BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


But I'm on your *side*.....or, why clever people can't be racist.

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
some guy
00:05 / 08.01.03
They never got to say no.

Why should they have the right to say no? Open-source culture is brilliant.
 
 
Aertho
19:27 / 08.01.03
Perhaps never being able to say no means also never being able to say yes either. And it's a short jump from that to ubiquitous meaninglessness. And I think it's the transference and interchangeability of meaning that destroys value.

Which leads to Hot Topic's Chinese lettered shirts being about the Meaning You Give It.

Which is bull because wiggas dress for the Meaning Others Give It.

Is this all to be done case-by-case?
 
 
some guy
19:53 / 08.01.03
But put the shoe on the other foot for a moment - do you think you or I should have any say over the "use" of US/UK culture?

Is the US version of Men Behaving Badly just as "bad" as a hippy chick with a dreamcatcher? Who are these people who are offended that Robbie Williams sports a Maori tattoo. If other Maori aren't offended, which group of Maori "wins?"

The Hot Topic example is particularly relevent here, because Asian youth buy clothes littered with English words they don't understand. Often, they're random words picked from a dictionary, mashed into nonsense phrases, and sometimes they're just strings of letters that don't even make words. Is this as "bad" as the kids buying shirts with Asian characters at Hot Topic?

And it's a short jump from that to ubiquitous meaninglessness.

Can you explain what you mean here? I don't follow.

I suppose where this is really leading to is Should distinct cultures be preserved? But this raises all sorts of vexing questions, such as What counts as UK culture? and Should UK culture be frozen in 2003 to prevent any change? and Should we end all cross-cultural exchange?
 
 
Aertho
20:19 / 08.01.03
Hm.

I did jump farther than I thought. Alright. All this cross-cultural world market stuff feels as thought it were becoming reference glut. It happens in shops, in the workplace, and even in conversations in here. Let's assume all manner of speaking were allowed in all posts, about all topics. Sure, that sounds like freedom, but it'll run over into meaningless conversation. Barbelith says no, either through implication or warning or moderators when the need arises. But they also say yes to forms of speech and topics that aren't found elsewhere. Because of this yes, we continue to return and recieve value for our efforts, whereas in free speech rooms, it's arbitrary and momentary.

I'm saying the active solid judgement of things is necessary to creating meaning. Interchangeablity of individual judgements render meanings impotent. Which is why we have a judicial branch to be "the highest court in the land", to preserve meaning's value. The value of "Meaning" in the reasoning of wiggas' dress codes was Haus's original question. I gotta go home now, hope that clears stuff up a little.
 
 
The Monkey
20:33 / 08.01.03
I can't argue because I've been trying to explain the pseudologic tied to an affective/emotional sense of the "wrongness" of cultural appropriation...why people feel the way they feel. Your critique is wasted in this context precisely because I'm not concerned with an absolute sense of moral Right and Wrong, but rather the subjective perception of right and wrong by the involved parties.

Since all of your big questions are premised on my prior posts being absolute declarations referant to some absolute sense of Should or Should Not Be in the realm of the anthropological-economic, there seems to be a discrepancy in our intent.
 
 
some guy
21:37 / 08.01.03
I'm saying the active solid judgement of things is necessary to creating meaning.

Why is meaning relevant in the case of cultural appropriation? Should I be dismayed that Asian kids echo the Hot Topic shirt abuses mentioned earlier? How do we decide when groups can assign new meaning (minority reclamation of pejoratives) and when they can't (mimicking spiritual tattoos)?

Monkey - it's not "wasted," because the question of who gets to "control" which cultural artifacts is not based on an "absolute sense of moral Right or Wrong." Do I get to control every espect of US culture as it is appropriated by others? And if so, why? Especially as I didn't create any of it, and therefore have an extremely dubious claim to ownership in the first place...

The Inuit are free to ransack American culture for their own ends. I don't give a shit.
 
 
The Monkey
06:03 / 09.01.03
Well, gee golly, that straw man you've been tearing at is finally limping, LLB. Perhaps you should finish it of before it makes a getaway.
 
 
some guy
10:56 / 09.01.03
Monkey - if that's the way you feel, perhaps you could explain your argument better. I'm obviously not picking up the statement you're trying to convey.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:04 / 09.01.03
I'm with Lawrence on this one. Monkey - let's assume for a second that Lawrence doesn't understand your argument as you have stated it, and thus is misunderstanding in his response. Where is the "straw man"? Is it the insistence on absolute standards of right and wrong? If so, then is one forced to accept that in fact one cannot express anything more than a personal opinion about acts or processes of cultural appropriation (or, what I think mioght be a more useful term, cultural reassingment, but give me a bit of time to think about that one)? Or is there something in the balance of power that skews any such judgements?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:56 / 09.01.03
Lawrence: surely the point is that nobody objects to cultural transference in itself, just the colonial baggage that goes with it when it occurs in certain forms - the inequality of power relations, etc? I guess the next question is, can you separate the two?

(Myself, I'm not clear how I feel about some of this - see my "why is the dreamcatcher girl catching flak?" post somewhere above...)
 
 
some guy
19:30 / 09.01.03
I can see the inequities resulting from power relations between cultures, yes. I don't deny that colonialism was a bad, destructive thing. But I don't think it's an issue that has any bearing on cultural appropriation, unless we want to expand our definition of "culture" to include economics and so forth. I'm not sure that's wise when we seem to be discussing the appropriation of actual objects.

Even that language doesn't work for me - "appropriation" suggests that the original is somehow stolen or diminished. What's really happening might be better described as remixing. The original song is still there, but the remix makes the music scene as a whole richer. I just don't see the problem.

Having said that, if someone wants to attempt an explanation as to why the hippy chick shouldn't have a dreamcatcher, or Robbie Williams shouldn't have a cod tribal tattoo, or a Kalahari man shouldn't wear jeans, or Cambodia should give up soccer, I'm listening.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:38 / 11.01.03
Hmm, doesn't 'remixing' imply an engagement with that culture at some level in order to produce something worth the effort? This stereotyped girl with the dream catcher may have done that or may just have had a 'do-it-yourself' balsa wod model kit bought for her for Christmas, she may or may not care about the culture that developed it, just think it'll look cool and impress her friends.
 
 
The Monkey
15:52 / 11.01.03
Quite honestly, I lost my shit in this thread when Lawrence wrote this:

"Why should they have the right to say no? Open-source culture is brilliant."

and while my earlier statements may have been plain unclear, after this point I've been looking for a fight...it was just such a ha'ule thing to say at that moment. After going through several other threads and realizing how the text format can skew a throwaway line, I don't know how you intended that statement to spin, but abstracted of a tone of voice and heard through the filter of my own baggage it sounded a whole lot all of the other fey, gluttonous, white cultural tourists I've encountered. I have my own predjudices and intellectual sore spots, and this thread presses on one of them. Every once in a while I bite, and it's rarely as justified in retrospect as it felt at the moment.

Let's start again.
 
 
alas
17:02 / 11.01.03
I was wondering if we could tie some of the recent discussions in and out of the Head Shop into some sort of overarchy thing here, perhaps leading onto some practical solutions for goodness (hey, Alas!)...

hey, Haus!

This was a good thread. (Can anyone translate that into Old English for me? Just curious.) I re-read my own remarks from this distance with a little embarrassed feeling of my own self-righteousness.

I love you guys! That's all I really want to say.

But I will go on of course to say that when money and power are involved in cultural appropriations--Western corporations patenting strains of Jasmine rice developed over centuries by Indian families--we're on more firm ground. I sense that that's where our major focus should be, again--on that macro-level appropriation that also--ironically--also makes re-mixing into a copyright violation. It's that kind of one-way appropriation that's most aggravating.

The dream-catcher woman may be led by her purchase to find out more about the real, Native American people who live among us today. (More likely not, but it can happen... right?)

alas.
 
 
The Monkey
17:26 / 11.01.03
Honestly, my contentions with Lawrence's questions are not as strong as I have prior made them out to be (they're good questions): I am to a degree, unsure, though, how questions I brought up have been translated into declarations of action, nor how bringing up that some folk are both affectively and intellectually opposed to aspects of cultural appropriation signifies a definitive position against all cultural exchange...thus Lawrence's questions, viable or not, seem to be premised on the misstatement of my thoughts (whether on my end or his). Hence an attempt to clarify in the next post that "some people" both in an armchair-intellectual and an imbedded-in-situation sense (protesting indigenous groups) feel the power dynamic present during colonialism and residual in this post-/neo-colonial breaches the standard path of cultural exchange...in the colonial context the subaltern side of the exchange had no choice but to "chat," and furthermore had no choice but to receive both the ideological and material culture of the colonizer.

According to this perspective, the present-day “wants” of individuals in post-colonial nations for Western material goods (as markers of prestige and fashion-centrality as opposed to liminality) are predicated on the implantation of the idea-value of said goods during colonialism. Hence this bit of post-/neo-colonial theory in-logic:

What has changed in recent history - by which I mean the past five hundred years - has been the power dynamic and scale within which goods and exotics circulated. Political and technological circumstances generated an economic center in-country - the modern version of the city, as trade hub and industrial base - and globally - the "centering" of Europe as consumer. I think a big hinge of the discussion here is the implicit recognition of this power dynamic, with the [white] European on top by default due to the processes of the past, and its impact upon the modern ability for consumption. The ability to buy a dreamcatcher as an artefact of Native American culture (Which tribe? - I honestly don't know....) is predicated by a process of imperialist extraction of that material good from its original context/position. There is a similar inverted unease regarding the reciprocal activities of appropriation occurring in non-European post-colonial contexts. The desire of young desi for bluejeans and Nikes, or the !Kung usage of metal tools, doesn't sit well in the stomach because the trading interaction somehow seems to have been forced...thrust upon them...as part of the power dynamic of Europe-as-economic-center.

These issues raised have been voiced both in the realm of the academic and the grass roots…in the former merely as a thought-balloon to bounce about, in the latter as the driver for indigenous cultural-preservation movements. This position, though, possesses its own assailable points, largely relating to the selective deployment of agency—these events are characterized upon the level of culture-collisions across time and space, but are in fact often enacted in the modern context by individual consumer choices. In the colonial context, one can clearly speak of the fashion in which a hegemonic force within the colonizing culture set the pace and tone of cultural exchange, but nowadays:

…to what degree is the appropriation process, both upon an intellectual and a superficial/material [exceeding rough distinction, don't hold me to it] normal? I mean, in anthropology/archaeology/social history we refer to the process of "cultural diffusion," which was one attempt to characterize this process of individual appropriation and exchange of cultural memes, potentially leading to change in the overall societal framework, or simply the budding of new microcultural forms. This process of appropriation/exchange would seem to be intimately related to economic [material] consumption, particularly in the realm of the non-essential goods and services, both across time and space. One could almost speak of the pursuit of novelty, a la the beginning of "100 Years of Solitude," as an element of consumption history. In the case of trans-cultural, trans-ethnic interactions, one can further establish a marked category of the "consumption of the exotic": the purchase of material products that are "other"...non-locally produced, scarce because of circulation, and lacking in recognized enculturated structures of use...because they are other. This can be seen in the microscale, as in farmer's markets comprising the fruits of multiple villages' labor, and the macroscale, such as import/export companies such as Pier 51 or Cost Plus.

European/American liberal intellectuals as third-parties were less my concern than local, involved voices advocating this kind of cultural lateralism, but the point stands for both, and I didn’t initially consider the cultural imperialist interpretation of this stance. Ultimately, though, the feasibility of the position makes it a voice in the hinterlands relative to the current flows of cultural exchange:

The sick thing is there's really no going backwards. I'm not sure the appropriation process can be checked either direction, and attempts to "return" to an uncontaminated culture are not so much a reversion as an impressionistic interpretation of the past. Perhaps the latter is the way to go...Albert Memmi certainly suggests this type of methodology, that the "West" should simply go away and leave the colonized to sort out their culture on their own, independent of the value systems ingrained in European thought [in other words, the closure of the dialogue between colonized and colonizer, "center" and "other"]

While arguably Memmi’s model of postcolonial lateralism would be best for “developing” nations, in terms of weaning them from dependence upon both the idea- and production/material- culture (to say nothing of economic and industrial stability) of their old colonizers, the call is akin to Canute ordering back the tide…the process of ebb and flow is beyond the control of an institutional force (not that various governments haven’t…and still aren’t…trying).

But if the dialogue remains open do we have to examine the parameters of appropriate and inappropriate consumption of cultural artefacts and memes?
For example, is it acceptable to incorprorate the sarong into fashion because it is an item with no strong second-order meanings? Similarly, is it entirely inappropriate to acquire an item considered sacred - such as a Maori Te Moko (the characteristic tattoos, which are sacred) copied from a photograph?

The final questions are really questions for people to ask themselves more than anything else: I don’t think any conclusion will be hashed out here. I’m guessing I have reservations that a lot of people on this board wouldn’t, but I’m guessing my sense of concepts of tradition, ancestry, and community is a pretty radically different, too.

The issue of what is, should, and should be shared (or taken) is of grave concern to me, but I have no total answer. The example of the Maori tatus fits my personal quandary best: I ran across a website maintained by a Aotaroan culture group that was essentially a gripe about one of their more distinct, and closely-held, traditions, a style of tatu known as te moko, appearing on the bodies of non-Maori who lacked the cultural and spiritual creds (mana) to have them. Now, there is a pretty gruesome back history relating to the habit of latter-day cultural butterfly-collectors and anthropometrists of just plain killing Maori with nifty tatu and exporting their skin and heads for study and conversation pieces…but anyone with a decent eye or a camera could copy these patterns and get them inked. Yet there is tremendous solidarity within the Maori community that these are not other people’s business. Other forms of Maori tatu are not considered off-limits or unacceptable; just the one sacred form. So what does it means when you take something after the other party has barred the transaction, even it is an idea rather than a material object? Does the ugly past affect the modern day consumer, and should it? Should sanctity (versus mundanity) affect this acquisition process? Should it give us pause?
 
 
some guy
19:57 / 11.01.03
I think part of the problem here is that the issue is framed by one side - this is the guilt-ridden Western middle class liberal view in full force, one that IMO collapses completely when we look at the bigger picture. The absurdity of the position is amply demonstrated by two questions:

1) Do you object to the rampant appropriation of Western cultural artifacts by other cultures?

2) Should China rid itself of the moving picture, and indeed everything else the Chinese did not invent?

Where is the moral outrage here for Japanese anime, which is the result of cultural appropriation of early Disney stylistic techniques?

If the question is sanctity of spiritual artifacts, I submit that the West has no sanctity for its own religious artifacts (see Piss Christ an so forth) and so, at the very least, there is no double standard here.

The example of patenting grain does not apply here, because that ventures into economics rather than concerning itself with a cultural artifact.
 
 
The Monkey
11:17 / 12.01.03
It's someone else's position, and it is very unreasonable...which does not mean it is absurd. Indeed, the very point, from the perspective of a radical thinker (and actor) like Memmi, or even a group such as Al-quaeda, is the unreasonableness of the stance not to transact: to close the circulation of idea-culture and material culture with the (hypothetical) West, and likewise to sever the economic bonds of import-export consumption.

Your claims are predicated on the idea that cultural exchange of ideas and material objects is inherently good, and that cultural change and syncretism is good. To the post-colonial subject, there is a great deal of personal and macroeconomic data that challenges this position: an obeservation of their own past suggests that the promise of mutual benefit is a red herring...sort of a sense of "Greeks bearing gifts." "Exchange" in the past has created the current economic imbalances, marginalizing "developing" nations in to strip-mines for natural resources that are then bought on the cheap by European industry, processed and sold back at vast profit, and has created the regional tensions that have blossomed into wars and genocides. Observation suggests that perhaps "exchange" hasn't been good for all parties.

Many people feel (and I am not one of them, and this is the point where I entirely lose sympathy for both intellectual and grass roots thinkers) that the fetishization of Western goods, fashions, etc. is a by-product of colonial hierarchy (a position that denies individual agency in consumption and aesthetic choices) and the process of Sanskritization found within the dynamic between the ruled and the ruler, a microcosmic manifestation of the dependencies fostered by the dominance of the West. There is in this case vehement objection to the further consumption of Western consumables (and their accompanying ideas), and indeed sometimes even actions to retrogradely expunge the influence of such. Because the microscale of cultural consumption contributes to the macroscale imbalance in which most capital flows back to the West, there is a tremendous concern over what individuals want and purchase.

To the best of my knowledge, not many nations or communities have attempted to completely expel Western influences or material goods...in the sense of expunging vital technological components of their infrastructure. There is, more often than not, a recognition of the impossibility of going truly backwards. There are, however, processes of de-emphasizing, marginalizing, and shunning technologies...making them more "exterior" to both daily living experience and ritual significance.

I am unsure precisely why or how you are divvying up culture and economics, as though they were seperate entities, particularly when we are discussing cultural interchange...which is primarily conducted, even within the realm of ideas, via economic transactions that lead to consmption.
 
 
some guy
13:07 / 12.01.03
Your claims are predicated on the idea that cultural exchange of ideas and material objects is inherently good, and that cultural change and syncretism is good.

No, they're based on the idea that these things are not bad, which is different. There's a very uncomfortable sense of misguided elitism that permeates the argument against cultural change for non-Western societies, as though they were quaint little toys. It might even be a side effect of the rapid pace of change in the West - maybe it makes us uncomfortable, and so we project that onto other cultures (because it's always much harder to think objectively about ourselves). But this seems awfully silly to me. What's American culture? Circa 1954? Circa 1977? Circa 1993? These are almost distinct cultures.

I think I may have asked this earlier, but why should all cultures be preserved? Why specifically? I'm not talking about the Aztecs here, but something like Japan, which if anything is even more ravenous when it comes to cultural appropriation than the West. If Japan is radically different in 10 years - so what? And then we move that "down" to the "quainter" cultures, the African tribes who now have a telephone in the village, who wear blue jeans.

"Exchange" in the past has created the current economic imbalances, marginalizing "developing" nations in to strip-mines for natural resources that are then bought on the cheap by European industry, processed and sold back at vast profit, and has created the regional tensions that have blossomed into wars and genocides.

This is shifting the goalposts of the conversation. I thought we were talking about appropriating specific cultural artifacts - dreamcatchers, tshirts, tattoos, blue jeans and Disney? On some level this is divorced from economics, natural resources and war. Dreamcatchers, tribal tattoos. How are these things different from the appropriation of Disney as the basis for traditional Japanese anime, or the global spread of the telephone?

I am unsure precisely why or how you are divvying up culture and economics, as though they were seperate entities, particularly when we are discussing cultural interchange...which is primarily conducted, even within the realm of ideas, via economic transactions that lead to consmption.

Because otherwise it's like dicussing the impact of video games on Western society and getting hung up on how cheap the boxes are, how expensive the games are, how many households spend X amount on new releases and so on. It misses the real point. Nobody's arguing that there are negative economic results from colonialism, so why bang on about it when we can discuss something much more vexing, which is the actual artifacts themselves. Robbie Williams sporting a Maori tattoo does not have economic implications, so let's move on already. If we're going to criticize his ink, let's do it from a more fruitful perspective. That's all.
 
 
The Monkey
18:01 / 12.01.03
Lawrence, I'm not qualified to answer your questions. You keep insisting on proof of the superiority or necessity of the position I'm describing.

I have been trying to present a mindset that I have little agreement with, but a little sympathy for, that I thought tied in with the thread's purpose and would introduce new questions, not answers. I feel that I have managed to present the cons of the position...it's markers as a *belief system* chased through with structures of affect, it's elitist assumptions and its denial of individual choice, at the same time that I haved described its internal thought-structure. I have not tried to present cultural lateralism as a positive or negative, but rather an alternate system of thinking about a pattern in the world.

Secondly, I have tried to explain that microeconomics and individual consumption are seen by inidivduals such as Memmi (but also Mohandas Gandhi, Mao Tzedong) as blocks accumulating to create the tectonics of macroeconomics: objects and their circulation as individual purposes are never divorced from their economics, nor in the course of this entire thread have I attempted to deal with objects seperate from their commerce, nor have I attempted to spread apart culture and economy. I have consistently dealt with appropriation as consumption.

Rather than telling me I'm wrong yet again, make a case for how a object whose cultural significance is altered by the process of being bought/sold across cultural/national boundaries isn't intertwined with an economic process.

Furthermore, you doggedly label my arugmentation as "liberal white guilt" without justification and in the face of my careful statement that I was evincing a position comprising both collegiate-academic and indigenous modes of thought.

Finally, you seem insistent on the idea that I am describing the casting of culture in amber, preserving some specific moment as "true culture." I'm tired of referencing the bits in my own posts where I have explained that this isn't what has been described. I've tried to capture the stubborn, unreasonable aspects of cultural lateralist, or "preservation," movements...which is very much a part of the idea of sealing off transactions with the West....

You have returned over and over to the "proof" of the fallacy of this position --that culture is in continual flux, and thus there is no singular point to return to or maintain. Perhaps I have been unclear, but I don't think I have ever put forward (even acting as a third-party representing the position of a small slice of hinterland indigenous-rights thought) that cultures should *always* stay the same. I have claimed that both academics and radicals have put forward the idea of closure of ties between the West and post-colonial nations...allowing the latter to develop their own culture (and infrastructure, economy, etc.) seperate from Western schemas. That is a very different thing from what you have been tenaciously holding onto as a projection of "my point."

I have tried to bring up something different in this discussion, a position that otherwise wouldn't be manifest in the flow of the conversation...one that in many ways goes against the general themes of universalism that this board takes for granted. I enjoy playing with ideas, even ones that I do not hold - it did not occur to me that the only product of this project would be to generate the equivalent of rams butting heads. I am tired of trying to grind all of my thoughts out in English; it has been a very long time, even in an academic environment, since I've had this much trouble simply describing a position. This single thread has brought me more doubt about my ability to express myself in English than any other occurence in my recent history.

Your argumentation has taken the form of a series of dismissals: that each hesitation I note is irrelevant, each process I describe extraneous.
I shall no longer lay out ideas for you to reject as chaff. I await your grains of truth.
 
 
The Monkey
18:10 / 12.01.03
Actually, no I don't.
 
 
some guy
21:37 / 12.01.03
I've snipped a bunch of things here, because I think what is happening is that I'm tossing out some general ideas and problems for the group, whereas I gather Monkey thinks my posts are addressed directly to him. Monkey - sometimes I might take elements of your posts and run with them, but I haven't really been engaging in a dialogue, or obviously I would have tackled the meat of your arguments. I'm sorry if I wasn't making this more clear...

You keep insisting on proof of the superiority or necessity of the position I'm describing.

Where have I done this?

Rather than telling me I'm wrong yet again, make a case for how a object whose cultural significance is altered by the process of being bought/sold across cultural/national boundaries isn't intertwined with an economic process.

Do you think Robbie Williams' Maori tattoo is intertwined with an economic process?

I'm not interested in exploring the economic imperialism thing because I imagine we're all in agreement about its presence and effects. But I also believe it doesn't paint a very accurate picture of the real world, hence we should get directly involved in questions of cultural appropriation of specific cultural artifacts and the fact that Western culture is appropriated as often as we nick elements from other societies.
 
 
pomegranate
16:57 / 06.03.03
This is taking it back a ways, but i wanted to comment on the whole 'calling people white trash' thing.
first of all white trash don't have to come from the southern US; I'm from Michigan originally and we have loads of white thrash up there.
Is it classist to say someone is white trash? Well, I do it all the time. Cos I *am* classist; not in the economic sense, but as in, I judge you whether or not you have any. I don't call all lower-income whites white trash; if you don't have money, that's fine, but if yr ignorant and trashy (usually I mean trashy in a stylistic sense), yr white trash (in my eyes at least). I used to work for a woman that I considered to be very much white trash. She used to be lower-middle-class, but had since made more money. She now lived in a nice home in the nice part of town and wore nice clothes, but she was still white trash to me, cos of her attitudes and ignorance.
Also, what's with all the hate on the college girl with a dream catcher? Is that so much worse than eating Chinese food?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:55 / 06.03.03
I think we've got a lot of interesting linguistic tensions in PM's post here. Obviously, we have "classist", which ze defines as judging whether or not people have class rather than whether or not they have money, which stands distinct both from the financial view but also, to an extent, from the UK view of class hierarchies, which are related both to being "classy" and to finance, but only tangentially.

Then there's "nice", which is associated with homes, parts of town and clothing, and presumably is therefore related to cost as well as aesthetics. Ze is describing what I would probably, as a Britisher, describe as nouveau riche - somebody whose financial arrangements have given them purchasing power beyond their station, but also that's where the definition of "nice" becomes important - famously, nouves don't know how to dress, and so wear things that are expensive but tacky.

PM's identification of white trashhood rests on "ignorance" and "attitude". I don't know exactly what is meant by "attitude" here, but "ignorance" traditionally means an absence of knowledge, or of willingness to learn. And I have to wonder whether this can be separated entirely from questions of finance...in the same way that comparatively few prostitutes are middle-class, to what extent is an ignorant adult the fault of the mechanisms that raised him, and to what extent in turn are they concerned with finance or capital?
 
 
pomegranate
20:54 / 06.03.03
In this case, my former boss, I mean her attitudes such as her racism, something that is common in trashy peoples (in my experience). As far as whether or not it's her 'fault' for being ignorant...I want to make it clear that I'm not classifying people as ignorant simply cos they are uneducated. You can always learn about things on yr own, and I'm sure most of us have met people who are smarter without degrees than some of those with.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:55 / 06.03.03
I read a very interesting article on that (probably in the Guardian) a while back, but am frustrated to find that I can't locate it... the gist of it was, that while there is no difference in ability/intelligence/potential (call it what you want) between yer average poor and well-off children at the age of two, by the time the same childen reach primary school the poorer children have started to fall behind. This situation is subsequently exacerbated by the ability of well-off parents to send their little ones to crammers, private schools, etc., while the poorer children are left further and further behind. The fact that most of the money in the education system is directed at secondary schools and colleges/universities only makes things worse, as better funding at a nursery and primary school level might help to make the difference. I'll try and find the reference...
 
 
Quantum
09:36 / 07.03.03
on kit-kat's post above- better diet as children is said to be the prime factor in the academic success difference between rich & poor (especially when comparing 1st world and 3rd world countries), but is just one of the advantages that exascerbate the disparity- I agree we should weight investment more toward the young when it will have more benefit.
On the topic- Everyone is bigoted in one way or another, surely the difference is whether or not you are aware of your bias. I am prejudiced against white boys in shell suits, prejudiced in favour of Jamaicans with dreadlocks, I approve of 'smart' people and dislike 'stupid' people, etc. I am unable to have no prejudices at all, so surely the next best thing is to be aware of my bias and weight against it when trying to be objective.
*disclaimer* Before I get flamed I am not condoning racist, homophobic, classist, creedist or any other stance as rationally defensible or any justification for violent, hostile or rude behaviour, I am commenting on the 'invisible' discrimination I and many others are prone to. If I meet someone from a group I'm prejudiced against I am deliberately tolerant and polite to find out about the person themselves, before making a judgement on them. Is that enough?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:28 / 07.03.03
Interesting thoughts on the diet thing; I'm hopeless on the physiological stufdf, but would suggest that one of the main differences would be the difference in the availability and quality of schooling, and the resources available to schools. Somebody spending one day a week in a school without electricity becaus ethe other days they have to work to help to feed their family is presumably less likely to have access to the same opportunities to become, say, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist than somebody who could spend five days a week in a school with the latest computers and textbooks.

However, I think that your point re: being aware of one's instincts and prejudices is a very good one, and provides a very useful tool. It also locates prejudice internally, whereas there is a tendency to locate prejudice externally. However, if one is aware of a bigotry, can one still coherently hold it? Or it least is it possible not also to attemnpt to critique and destroy it generally as well as its effects an a case-by-case basis?

I think PM's you can always learn about things on yr own comment leads quite interestingly into Quantum's comments about both education and locating prejudice internally or externally. We have now the identifiers "trashy" and "racist", with racism being an identifier of trashiness and possibly trashiness being a prior event leading to racism, both being connected to a correctable ignorance. So, are we letting those less educated down by not providing them with more opportunities to imnprove themselves, or is it their fault, and if so how best should we deal with it?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:48 / 07.03.03
I'm tempted to say that it's never enough, and the trick is to realise that and try to make things better on a day to day basis (but maybe I've just been watching too much Angel). I also think that there are two very different ways of thinking that can be described in similar ways when someone says that we have to accept that we're all prejudiced. One is simple self-justification - "we all have our prejudices, these are mine, and I'm not changing for nobody" - as can be seen demonstrated in, say, the recent thread about class. The other is what it seems you're describing, where you accept that as a result of the society you've been raised in you will have prejudices (however unconscious) which are likely to be in line with the dominant ideology of that society (however much you like to think you oppose it) - and from that standpoint you try to understand, work through and ultimately change those prejudices. I see this as pretty much the only way to be - amongst other things, it helps avoid reactions like "I'm not a racist, are you calling me a racist, how dares you call me a racist, I'm leaving Barbelith", etc, when someone questions the assumptions that may be present in something you say...
 
 
pomegranate
19:38 / 07.03.03
I too agree that everyone has innate prejudices. Whether we're born to be ethnocentric or raised that way, we still are. And yes it's something we should be aware of, as enlightened individuals...w/the hope that we can adjust our behavior accordingly. Sort of our own personal affirmative action?
Haus, I appreciate yr sentiment of helping lower-class peoples, but I'm not sure...do you mean pulling a Pygmalion on them or something, to give them culture (or whatever)?
How bad does yr diet have to be to affect yr growing brain? I'd say pretty bad. Personally, I'm not even really talking about dirt poor people in the ghetto, I'm talking about the lower-middle to upper-lower classes, I guess. My former boss (just cos she's a point of reference now) wasn't stupid like she hadn't gotten the correct nutrients or something (chuckle), she was just ignorant...had no desire to learn things, to get, in my opinion, some "class".
 
 
Quantum
10:45 / 10.03.03
Poor diet includes eating McDonalds every day. I'm not talking about starving famine victims, I'm talking about people on state benefits/minimum wage This has some more details on Nutrition and brain growth but is a bit simplistic. This is the most relevant bit:
"The brain of a human fetus grows rapidly from the 10th to 18th week of pregnancy, so it is important for the mother to eat nutritious foods during this time. The brain also grows rapidly just before and for about 2 years after birth. Malnutrition during these periods of rapid brain growth may have devastating effects on the nervous system and can affect not only neurons, but also glial cell development and growth. Effects on glial cells may change myelin development especially because myelin continues to form around axons for several years after birth.
Babies born to mothers who had poor diets may have some form of mental retardation or behavioral problems. Also, children who do not receive adequate nutrition in their first few years of life may develop problems later. Often the effects of malnutrition and environmental problems, such as emotional and physical abuse, can combine to create behavioral problems. Therefore, the exact causes of behavioral disorders are difficult to determine.
Some effects of malnutrition can be repaired by a proper diet, so not all of the effects of poor diets are permanent. Researchers believe that the timing of malnutrition is an important factor in determining if problems will occur. This means that missing out on a particular nutrient at the time when a part of the brain is growing and needs that nutrient will cause a specific problem there."

Mantis's boss has no excuse though : ) and my point is that there are reasons to make judgements about people based on wealth, background, culture etc. Everybody uses heuristics (shortcuts, guesses) but what we object to is people treating their guesses as facts, and not educating themselves out of their ignorance (Mantis' boss again). Racist/classist attitudes are offensive when they're presented as truth rather than opinion.

Haus, you're assuming that educated people ('us') have a responsibility to the less well educated ('them') which in turn assumes a power over 'them' that 'we' don't have. Rulership by the intelligent is a long way off : ) But yes, I think those in power should strive to provide opportunities to people to improve themselves- social justice. Of course you can't force someone to improve, some people are just wankers, but everyone should have the chance to better themselves.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:55 / 10.03.03
Haus, you're assuming that educated people ('us') have a responsibility to the less well educated ('them') which in turn assumes a power over 'them' that 'we' don't have.

Really? Where? I can't see it myself....rather I'm suggesting that government, whether full of the well-educated or the poorly-educated, should be trying to maximise the access of citizens to education. Also, you've correpted "well-educated" and "intelligent", which is a little dangerous.
 
 
Quantum
12:40 / 10.03.03
So, are we letting those less educated down by not providing them with more opportunities to imnprove themselves, or is it their fault, and if so how best should we deal with it? (Haus, above)
My bad, I didn't realise you meant 'we, the government' I thought you meant 'we, the posters on this board'
The corruption of intelligent and well educated was in jest, but I stand by it- as long as it's understood that by 'educated' I don't mean academically qualified but rather knowledgable- self taught people count as educated, 'you can always learn about things on yr own' and that learning is just as valid (or more) than institutionalised education.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:18 / 10.03.03
Corrept, not corrupt, and you've just done it again, to "knowledgeable" and "intelligent". Correption means, among other things, turning a long syllable into a short one, and I'm using it here to suggest that one of the reasons long descriptions exist is because they do things short descriptions do not. "Educated" is not the same as "intelligent", which is not the same as "knowledgeable".

The passage you quote above was taking Praying Mantis' binary division, which personally I don't accept, of people who are (self)educated and have class and people who are not (self)educated and do not, and suggsting that in many cases these distinctions are treated as if they are both natural, immutable and solely the fault of the individual concerned when in reality I doubt very much that they are any of the above.
 
 
Quantum
14:43 / 10.03.03
Please defne intelligent for me Haus, as my vocabulary is so impoverished and my grasp of the nuances between knowledge, education and intelligence is so inadequate. Use words of few syllables for my poor simple brain, if the words are too long for me perhaps you could corrept them for me.
But seriously, how can you be pedantic about the use of the word 'knowledgable' and in the next breath (so to speak) bandy the word 'class' about?
..binary division...of people who are (self)educated and have class and people who are not (self)educated and do not, and suggsting that in many cases these distinctions are treated as if they are both natural, immutable and solely the fault of the individual concerned when in reality I doubt very much that they are any of the above.

I agree with you (the binary division is simplistic and I don't subscribe to it, the distinction is artificial, temporary and results from interaction between the individual and society, and even internally within the individual between innate and acquired causes) but what do you mean by class there? Certainly not socioeconomic class, it seems more like you mean it in the same sense as Mantis (...she was just ignorant...had no desire to learn things, to get, in my opinion, some "class") but at least ze put it in quotes. God forbid I should misinterpret you, what do you mean by 'class' in that context?

It's clearly a synonym for something people who are (self)educated would approve of, care to unpack it a little?
(note- I'm not saying you subscribe to the binary division, or that you ascribe 'class' as a quality to anybody or even that you admit there is such a thing as 'class', this is a question of usage- what did you mean)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:58 / 10.03.03
Please defne intelligent for me Haus, as my vocabulary is so impoverished and my grasp of the nuances between knowledge, education and intelligence is so inadequate.

I know I'm not Haus, but... surely intelligence is the measure of one's mental capacity or potential; education is a process through which that potential is developed; and knowledge is what one acquires during the educative process. So that one can be intelligent without being 'educated', and it's possible for someone who has been educated to be less natively intelligent than someone who has not had the advantage of education. Especially when educative processes tend more to the rote acquisition of knowledge for exams than to the development of intelligent thought. Having lots of knowledge isn't much good if you can't use it properly...
 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
  
Add Your Reply