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Ethics: Barbelith, Magick, Revolutionary Purity

 
  

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QUINT
17:44 / 06.03.02
I've just been letting off steam at someone in the Magick forum. A poster wants to use magick to induce someone to sleep with him. Stripped of the niceties, that seems to mean that he wants to affect her mind by subtle force majeur, and constrain her to do so.

Magick has a long tradition of love potions and so on, so it sort of slips by, where otherwise it might not.

But it got me thinking about something which may have a more general application than thinking about magick, which to many people is a load of hooey:

Instrumental (goal orientated) Magick is usually thought of as a kind of dodge, a way of evading obvious physical causalities - find a lost object, get a job, make or find money, whatever. But here it seems to be a way of avoiding ethical causality and consequence.

Why? Partly, perhaps, because as a slap in the face for conventional, consensus ontology and reality, it's inherently revolutionary; partly because it may just be a load of hooey, and therefore isn't a real transgression; partly because there doesn't seem to be any direct corrleation between act and result (if any).

The first two, at least, seem to be common to other radical and revolutionary positions, and are equally spurious in those contexts as well.

The word is the thing is the action, as any cabalist or media analyst knows well.
 
 
cusm
18:52 / 06.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Good Will Hurting:
partly because it may just be a load of hooey, and therefore isn't a real transgression; partly because there doesn't seem to be any direct corrleation between act and result (if any).


Bingo.

Until it can be proved to the general public that magic has a tangible, measurable effect and exactly what that effect is through some measurable medium such as "energy", casting a 'love spell' is nothing more than an advanced case of wishfull thinking. A lot of folks here feel quite differently about it than that, but one can always fall back on this as an excuse to justify their actions. "Its just magick, it doesn't really do anything, right?"

Well, I suppose if you use that cop-out, it won't, now will it?
 
 
grant
18:54 / 06.03.02
The tricky thing with magick is that it (supposedly) alters things on the causal level; rather than forcing someone to do something against hir will, it changes hir will altogether.
Y'know, like a good line of patter. Or an advertisement.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
19:40 / 06.03.02
Retrospective consent?
 
 
Rev. Jesse
20:07 / 06.03.02
right...

I've had friends "accidently" enchant against another person's car, almost enchanting against the man himself.

His car was wrecked in a terrible crash, but he was unharmed.

No way it was his "will" to crash his car
 
 
SMS
01:27 / 07.03.02
I can't see how using magic to try to get someone to have sex with you is any different than using fashion, a good sense of humour, conversation, a nice car, and so on...

If the magic wears off at dawn, and the person in question now suddenly finds you repulsive again, then the magic is acting like a drug, and it would be morally equivalent to drugging that person.

If xe, at first, does not find you terribly attractive, but you make a little love god, and xe suddenly thinks all your jokes are funny, and finds you generally quite charming, and this continues for several months, then the magic is acting like actual charm, and is morally equivalent to that.

If you use magic to destreoy someone's car, then it is equivalent to using a sledge hammer.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:40 / 07.03.02
Brainwashing's allowed, then?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:16 / 07.03.02
I don't think people were as uncritical as this thread suggests. Several posters took mind-control boy to task.
 
 
QUINT
08:16 / 07.03.02
Several didn't.

Basic banishings and cleansings can be interepreted as setting aside an area of sacred space - as the Masons do at the beginning of a lodge meeting, and religions do in consecrating an area, and so on.

The received wisdom is that this prepares the ground for a working, readies the mind, clears out any unwanted influences, and possibly creates that single stable point with which to move the universe.

What it seems to be for some people is a self-sanctifying, a move to a universe where actions performed within this circle are moral-neutral.

I like Nick's point about retrospective consent - several political traditions have that; Leninism and Maoism, for example.

The 'it'll never happen' defense is common in revolutionary politics, too. As is the notion that the project on which one is engaged is inherently revolutionary and therefore sanctified, set apart, and can do what it likes, because

1. it defies convention (shades of the Knowledge)

2. the goal will make everyone happy in the end...

...like the 'pulling spell'.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:26 / 07.03.02
quote:Originally posted by SMatthewStolte:
I can't see how using magic to try to get someone to have sex with you is any different than using fashion, a good sense of humour, conversation, a nice car, and so on...


Depends on the intent and specific focus of the magic. If you do magic to make yourself as attractive as you can be then maybe that's the same as making sure your hair is clean, deoderant is on, clothes are ironed, spinich isn't between teeth.

If your intent is to get a specific person to fuck you. Whether they want to or not then I see it a bit more like using drugs to influence someone into having sex with you. You are attempting to control their natural responses in a way that they wouldn't consent to if given the choice.

As for the other thread, after JJ made his history and intent of continued magickal attacks on the person in question known, nobody backed his position. Up until that point I think people were giving him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't as nasty as that.

By the way, why is this one in the Head Shop and not the Magick?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
14:40 / 07.03.02
In gutreactionland it seems about the magical version of using rohypnol.

I understand that there are complexities surrounding this involving belief, faith and intent but that's my reaction to what people are describing as the perceived scenario.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:01 / 07.03.02
quote:Originally posted by H:
In gutreactionland it seems about the magical version of using rohypnol.



In the case in question, I think this is definitely the magical version of rohypnol.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
15:10 / 07.03.02
If that's the case then I'll happily state my opinion that it's basically wrong and should be treated with the same severity as date rape.

I'm not going to step out a limb and say for definite that magic does or does not work but simply that I remain unconvinced in a skeptical manner.

However the intent is there and should the magic fail, what is to say that this person will not attempt other means to achieve their chosen ends.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
15:21 / 07.03.02
so if you do a spell for peace in the middle east and everybody stops fighting and the palestinians stop agitating for more space is it the same as threatening to nuke the area and everyone gives in? is the equivalent of sedating and mind-controlling the area with insidious scifictive technology?

or what if when you do the "have sex with me" spell you are creating an alternate quantum universe in which you are desireable to the target? or what if the spell sets off a non-local reaction in which you both become people who are in love with you? maybe it was, in fact, your target, from the future, now in love with you, forcing you to cast the spell?

or what if all you ever do in magick is find the true will of the universe, and when you do the "have sex with me spell" you are removing all the unnatural blockades in the universe that are keeping you two apart.

if you hang out with a person and you don't like each other all that much and then you both take mdma together and wind up in the sack, that's obviously a whole different thing than using a daterape drug.

in short, i think we would need to understand the mechanics of the spell to describe it's ethics. i've never seen a "love me" spell in action, so it's hard for me to know what's really happening.
 
 
—| x |—
15:31 / 07.03.02
!!!

quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Brainwashing's allowed, then?


quote:Originally posted by Lothar:
If your intent is to get a specific person to fuck you...You are attempting to control their natural responses in a way that they wouldn't consent to if given the choice.


!!!
 
 
—| x |—
15:47 / 07.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Gypt:
so if you do a spell for peace in the middle east and everybody stops fighting and the palestinians stop agitating for more space is it the same as threatening to nuke the area and everyone gives in?


NO. A spell for peace seems to me to be a willful intent to cause people to WAKE UP out of the brainwashing that is influencing them to act in ways counter to maintaining appropriate relations with the "other." A “threat” is a way to instill fear and has little if nothing to do with "self" love.

quote:or what if when you do the "have sex with me" spell you are creating an alternate quantum universe in which you are desireable [sic] to the target? maybe it was, in fact, your target, from the future, now in love with you, forcing you to cast the spell?

I agree with what Lothar says above, if the magick is directed at yourself in such a way to make you more desirable, then you are not transgressing anyone's freedom. If the spell is directed at the person you lust for, then you are merely attempting to satisfy ego drive-desire and deserve to have the spell rebound on you 3x nasty.

The last question, above, is interesting, but again, trying to dominate another through magick [ed. to add: or through any other means for that matter! (except, of course, in some consensual play)] seems inherently misguided.

quote:or what if all you ever do in magick is find the true will of the universe, and when you do the "have sex with me spell" you are removing all the unnatural blockades in the universe that are keeping you two apart.

Seems to me that a "have sex with me" spell has less to do with the universe and more to do with individual ego drive-desire. The "unnatural blockades" you point to seem more to do with walls in the person who is operating from such a drive-desire position and less to do with how the "external" objects are relating to that individual.

quote:if you hang out with a person and you don't like each other all that much and then you both take mdma together and wind up in the sack, that's obviously a whole different thing than using a daterape drug.

Tentatively agree.

{0, 1, 2}

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:00 / 07.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Gypt:


in short, i think we would need to understand the mechanics of the spell to describe it's ethics. i've never seen a "love me" spell in action, so it's hard for me to know what's really happening.


Agreed. It all comes back down to the intent of the magician and the way that intent was worded and the subsequent way that the ritual was designed around the statement of intent.

As for the your other hypothetical ethical questions, every practitioner has to make their own choices and the fine line between rationalization and responsibility is a tough one to walk. Especially in magick.

Maybe if I did 'fuck me' magic of the manipulative kind I'd really be creating another quantum reality. But all the evidence I have is that I would manipulating another person in this reality.

A lot of magicians fall into the trap of complete egocentrism where they are the only thing real in the universe and that everyone else is either there for their amusement or because they were created as part of the reality that the magician lives in.

Also, if anyone hasn't seen a person who was the recipient of successful manipulative magic, it's not a pretty sight. The person in question doesn't come out of it unscathed usually.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:17 / 07.03.02
quote:Originally posted by modthree:


Seems to me that a "have sex with me" spell has less to do with the universe and more to do with individual ego drive-desire. The "unnatural blockades" you point to seem more to do with walls in the person who is operating from such a drive-desire position and less to do with how the "external" objects are relating to that individual.



That's an excellent way of putting it.

One of the other dangers that magicians' 'egos' face is the whole 3 times return thing.

I completely agree that if someone believes in the 3 fold return then it will probably happen to them. But before and after Gerald Gardner penned that law, many cultures and people didn't believe in it and there has never been any evidence that it is a hard fast law of nature. If it were then magic wouldn't have evolved the way it did pretty much everywhere except for western Europe. And even there I think we've only seen the 'sanitized' post-victorian take on the matter.

This comes to my point: There are plenty of magicians that do 'amoral' or 'unethical' magic. I've met more than a few that the '3 fold law' has NOT slaped in the face when doing manipulative magic. Because they pay lip service to the 'law' they take this lack of response as justification for what they did.

"See everything worked out ok. The universe must have thought this was just."

Kind of the magical version of 'it's ok as long as I don't get caught'.
 
 
—| x |—
05:02 / 08.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
Also, if anyone hasn't seen a person who was the recipient of successful manipulative magic, it's not a pretty sight. The person in question doesn't come out of it unscathed usually.


And that is because what you do when you do do such a heinous act is basically psychic assault that, IMO, is on par with rape.

{0, 1, 2}
 
 
—| x |—
05:17 / 08.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
There are plenty of magicians that do 'amoral' or 'unethical' magic. I've met more than a few that the '3 fold law' has NOT slaped [sic] in the face when doing manipulative magic. Because they pay lip service to the 'law' they take this lack of response as justification for what they did.

"See everything worked out ok. The universe must have thought this was just."

Kind of the magical version of 'it's ok as long as I don't get caught'.


[sarcasm w/ serious undertones]

And these are the people that I'd like to hit with some kind of hammer--the heavier the better!

[normal voice]

You'll note that I said "...deserve to have the spell rebound...3x nasty" and not "...do have the spell..." It is unfortunate, IMO, that such vile souls do not always get what they deserve. But I suppose that there are many unethical people (not aware of their magick) who do not get the “instant karma smack down” that they also deserve.

As an aside, I've sometimes toyed with the idea of launching a servitor that would seek out people who work such operations and make sure they get what's coming to them, but I've never been able to decide if it is my place to do so or not.

<shrug>

Like you say Lothar, "...every practitioner has to make their own choices and the fine line between rationalization and responsibility is a tough one to walk."

m3
 
 
QUINT
06:28 / 08.03.02
Lothar: quote:By the way, why is this one in the Head Shop and not the Magick?Because I wanted people to discuss this in the light of what it means about Barbelith and revolutionary thinking, rather than purely the endless debates about magick and responsibility. Isn't it odd that The Magick should be a completely separate forum? The others all spill over into one another.

Mytery Gypt: quote:what ifNot relevant. The issue here is intent and readiness to compromise someone else's will, self-control, and identity. 'What if' all a drug does is unleash the normal desire within to fuck everything in sight? 'What if' you murder someone who secretly wants to die? Yes, you have achieved their desire for them - but you're still a murderer.

quote:i think we would need to understand the mechanics of the spell to describe it's ethicsDo you need to understand the mechanics of society to identify wrongdoing? Perhaps. But we are happy to function on an ad hoc basis all the time. This board is premised on the notion of revolution - if we can't identify bad ethical choices, we have no right to engage in that project. You're throwing obstacles at the notion of ethics in magick which you don't use in everyday life. Why?

This is what I'm getting at. People seem desperate to isolate Magick from morality and in quest of this they apply and frequently get away with reasoning which would be laughed off the board in other fora. Which is why we're in the Headshop with this.
 
 
Tom Coates
11:21 / 08.03.02
I think this is a tremendously interesting conversation to have in the Head Shop - because it cuts to a primal issue across all morality - if you have the power to change the world to meet you desires, is it appropriate to do so? how about when your desires are to make the world a better place?

The big conversation that I'm sensing brewing everywhere I look at the moment is IF YOU BELIEVE IN SOMETHING DON'T YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR IT? This is just an extension of that question -and the big questions of how to guage 'rightness' of belief, 'rightness' of action, the requirements of 'being true to oneself' etc. all apply here too...
 
 
Cat Chant
12:14 / 08.03.02
Sorry. A few very disconnected points here.

1. This is a great thread.

2. Good Will H said:
quote: Instrumental (goal orientated) Magick is usually thought of as a kind of dodge, a way of evading obvious physical causalities - find a lost object, get a job, make or find money, whatever. But here it seems to be a way of avoiding ethical causality and consequence.

Which is interesting to me because the little ethical philosophy (Kant/Levinas sorts of thinking, I think) that I've picked up says, I think, that it is *never* ethical to use a person as an 'instrument' - the Other is always to be seen/thought of/treated as an end in hirself.

My own thinking on the ethics of a love spell, as sharpened by the first few posts about whether it should be compared to drugging or to 'natural' charm, is - and I'm not sure whether I'm just making the same point as Margin Walker - that the problem is not specifically with the spell, but with the whole set of structures that make having sex with someone a 'goal' to which the other partner is the 'means'. By which I mean that the problem is primarily the conceptualization of relationships in terms of seduction, winning over, conquest, the hunt, etc, and only secondarily the means by which you go about 'conquering' the other person.

Which means that Tom might be right about the subtextual questions behind all this...
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:18 / 08.03.02
Back to Mystery Gypt's peace spell, if you cobble something together to compell people to be nice to eachother, is that still a 'good' thing? Not to be confused with stripping away someone's prejudices for a bit.

Tom, don't think it is a case of 'Should you fight for your beliefs', but more 'What beliefs are worth fighting for?' Thanks to the information age it's getting easier all the time to see both sides of any conflict, a lot of them so far away we have little personal stake in the outcome. Any situation where there is no 'Us' to back and no 'Them' to hate will generate this kind of discussion. Which is great.

I figure it all boils down to choices. Any action that generates choices for yourself or others is a good thing, anything that blocks choices is not so good. Necessary, perhaps, but never good. In context of the love spell, making yourself attractive is OK (dumb maybe, but OK), making another attract-ed ain't. Even if it doesn't work.
 
 
ciarconn
12:55 / 08.03.02
That's why they had such a heavy intelectual, moral, and volitive preparation for wizards/magic(k)ians in the old times.

And that's why it was hidden (esoteric) in the old times.

Magic is really easy to do (as The Drummer says: "it's the cheat codes of reality"). It can be done by everyone. If you give it to a person with little intelectual preparation, or with zero morality, the odds are high that he will mis/use it. But the "theory" is that using magic(k) will eventually push you into spiritual evolution, but that's not evident in the reality we live on.
 
 
ciarconn
14:44 / 08.03.02
BUT, complementing my other post, the temptation of using magick to bend people your way is way too great. I would have a hard time believing anyone if s/he said s/he has not used magick in an selfish way.
I have done it, more than once.
 
 
grant
17:25 / 08.03.02
But how much "consent" do you give you who you're attracted to to begin with?

I mean, if I could control who I was attracted to, I'd have lived a much happier life thus far.....
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:16 / 08.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Good Will Hurting:
Lothar: Because I wanted people to discuss this in the light of what it means about Barbelith and revolutionary thinking, rather than purely the endless debates about magick and responsibility. Isn't it odd that The Magick should be a completely separate forum? The others all spill over into one another


Excellent point. As one who is all too aware that sometimes The Magick is thought of as 'The Freak Pit' (as Ierne mentioned a week or so ago) I thank you for bringing this out to the headshop.

And for slapping me with some perspective.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:24 / 08.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Tom Coates:
I think this is a tremendously interesting conversation to have in the Head Shop - because it cuts to a primal issue across all morality - if you have the power to change the world to meet you desires, is it appropriate to do so? how about when your desires are to make the world a better place?


It is very interesting and I hope I can contribute in a positive way. This particular subject is a bit close to home, especially with the Jimmy Jazz example, because part of my 'job' when I work or assist in a shamanic capacity is to address exactly these types of things when they produce victims.

Jimmy Jazz asked something to the effect of 'come on. Hasn't everybody done something like this?'. To which the answer is 'No, and as a matter of fact it's in my remit to oppose such actions.'

For me it's a bit like a beat cop being present at a convention on the psychology and theory of crime.

"Don't tell me about his fucked upbringing! You didn't see the poor girl's body."

I'll do my best to keep my knee jerking to a minimum.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:34 / 08.03.02
quote:Originally posted by ciarconn:
I would have a hard time believing anyone if s/he said s/he has not used magick in an selfish way.
I have done it, more than once.


There's a difference between using magic for a selfish purpose and doing magic that is not only selfish but also knowingly harms another.

quote:A point that Tom made that I forgot to respond to

if you have the power to change the world to meet you desires, is it appropriate to do so? how about when your desires are to make the world a better place?


I think there may also be a cultural issue here. In western magical circles, there is the assumption that you are only allowed to help someone (i.e., do magic for them) if they ask for it. If not, it's not your right to assume they need help. Outside of magic this doesn't exist to such a degree. If you see someone getting robbed most people don't feel that they need their permission to call the police.

In some other cultures, such as Nepal. The magician, shaman, etc. is under no such restriction. If they see a wrong that needs to be addressed then they do it. Sometimes the client will know, sometimes not.

What areas of 'help' or 'change' need or don't need consent and why?
 
 
ciarconn
02:18 / 10.03.02
Gee, a lot of heavy question, hard to answer as a magickian, clearer to perceive as a philosopher.

The "power means responsability (TO AID)", is a double-edged sword. Many of us (at least me) grew up reading such imperative in the mass media (mainly comics). and yet, I had started questioning it as my reading of The Authority. (I know, wrong company). This wuys were powerful and forced their aid into the world. Many didn't like me at the WS forum because I said I didn't agree with what the Authority was doing (deposing the Indonesian government, pushing China out of Tibet and Rusia out of Chechenya). My point was that they were IMPOSING their own world view upon the world.
If the magickians/wizards of the world got to craft a spell otgether, and stopped all wars and made everyone "good", Would it be right?

And there's the other point. Aiding someone against/without their will. Some would argue that the will of the recipient is necesary for receiving aid (magickal or otherwise), but those with knowledge of psychology can argue that sometimes people can NEED aid and not to recognize it consciently..

Most of us accept that bending the will of anothe rperson for personal benefit is ethically bad, but, there are some other points it might not be as easy.
And power means responsability, to use it correctly, according to (rationally universal) ethical criteria. Sounds good in the words, but it's hard and heavy in the deeds.

Peace.

Norbert Schwartz
 
 
Seth
16:54 / 10.03.02
The obvious problem with helping people without their knowledge or consent is that the need for help and the means with which it is delivered are all decided only by the helper. I'm willing to bet that most would act with the best of intentions, but that doesn't necessarily make the outcome good. I've been the recipient of many well meaning acts of divination and prophecy that have been confusing, untempered, delivered without a framework of support, or just plain wrong. I can deal. Some can't.

I think the code of conduct should be to introduce oneself, talk about what you perceive your abilities to be and how they may be of assitance. Make sure the person/people know there is a framework within which they have continued support, and within which they can feedback to the person using the magic. I'm also a strong believer in accountability: I wouldn't trust any practitioner with a barge pole if I couldn't approach a human agency (their mentor, a magic circle they're involved with) to make a complaint if I felt it was necessary. If anything else, it shows that they have enough belief in their character and ability to have worked successfully in community for some time, and that they are comfortable being under authority. It shows they have the guts to be put out of business if they're consistently performing poor or destructive workings.

If anyone is serious about using their magic to help people, they'll ensure they safeguard that person at every stage - even if it potentially means a safeguard against the practioner themselves. The debate crosses over into the therapy industry. We've all heard stories of therapists who prolong psychological symptoms because they're paid by the hour. There's a massive problem in that our ability to effect change in other people (if we apply ourselves to learning the right techniques) can be wholly unregulated by any agency outside ourselves.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
11:37 / 11.03.02
Expressionless: sounds reasonable, but you are wandering into 'who watches the watchmen' territory. How do you know the mentor/magic circle/whatever will do their job?

Certainly agree with the bit about talking to the recipient, though. Has to be the first step.
 
 
Seth
16:49 / 11.03.02
It's very hard to know that they're doing their job. I guess we'd need an industry regulator!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:40 / 11.03.02
I think part of the reason that people seem to want to leave their ethics at the door when it comes to magick is that they don't think of it as "real".

It's like having an affair on holiday: it doesn't matter because it happens outside of the normal context of your life, and therefore it doesn't count. People who'd never dream of inflicting physical violence will lay tricks without even thinking about it. People who'd never dream of spiking a girl's drink will try to use magick to get her into bed.

Oh, but your belief system has no truck with conventional morality, "nothing's true and everything's permitted"? Great. So you're going to go thru life using magick to get what you want, regardless of the consequences to anyone else. How do you justify that- by telling yourself that the other person was weak, that they deserved what you did? Grow up.

This is real. And it does matter what you do. Magick is a tool, of the nature of tools; you use it with care. Magick is power, of the nature of power; you do not abuse it. Live this part of your life as you would live any other.

[ 12-03-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]
 
  

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