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Crime and Stigma

 
  

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Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
15:32 / 26.02.02
Oh, Meghan's law works...just not in quite the way it was presumably intended to. The warnings go up, concerned parents go over and burn the house down, the offender goes underground to avoid a lynch mob and is separated from whatever counselling is available to them as well as forced out of the one place the police could keep an eye on them.

In many ways, it's genius.
 
 
Ganesh
15:36 / 26.02.02
Sure, Bitchiekittie, but the abusers are "us" too. I don't say this to be glib or trite and I'm not saying 'they need love' or whatever; I'm pointing out that if we, as a society, decide that ten years is the punishment for crime X then, ten years on, they've 'done their time' and are back within society. They don't owe more 'debt'.

Whether or not they'll reoffend is a separate matter. I don't have immediate access to the statistics either (and I can't recall them from the last time we had this discussion) but (barring the odd exception) there's no quick and easy way to predict whether someone will reoffend - and we can't just imprison them indefinitely on the off-chance. At some point, they have to go back into society.

I don't honestly know which are the lines that cannot be re-crossed. Are some people impossible to rehabilitate? How do you decide who?

[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Ganesh
15:41 / 26.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus Red:
Oh, Meghan's law works...just not in quite the way it was presumably intended to. The warnings go up, concerned parents go over and burn the house down, the offender goes underground to avoid a lynch mob and is separated from whatever counselling is available to them as well as forced out of the one place the police could keep an eye on them.


And, if our hypothetical offender does decide he wants to start a 'paedophile ring', it provides a nice, simple way for him to discover the addresses of nearby, potentially sympathetic contacts...
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:37 / 26.02.02
I agree its not fair that people cant just move on with their lives once theyve "done their time". but its doubly unfair to allow people to live unaware of the potential danger to themselves and to their children....I dont know where the line is. all I really know is that when it comes right down to it, my childs health and well being is paramount to anything else, right or wrong
 
 
Ganesh
16:46 / 26.02.02
As a mother, I wouldn't really expect you to feel any other way. The question remains, however, of how any given society reconciles the rights of the individual who's 'paid his dues' and is now considered a member of society again, and the perceived rights of interested parties to know the addresses of people who've been convicted of violent crimes in the past.

It's a thorny problem, particularly in my own little island country, where everywhere is somebody's Back Yard.

One thing that interests me and, as a parent, BK, you might be able to help me on this: assuming you are given the addresses of convicted sex offenders in your neighbourhood, how (in practical terms) would you go about protecting your child from harm? What would you do differently?

[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:05 / 26.02.02
well, personally? first of all, Im not really the nasty-confrontational sort (burning down houses or organizing lynch mobs isnt my style) - as long as you keep on your side of the fence there would be no scenes. currently, my child is too young to go around outside unattended, but if she were old enough to do so Id let her know not to have anything to do with him in particular. Ive been known to allow my child to play with other kids inside the other neighborhood kids houses without me being there (although, being how I am this is very rare) - Id like to know if that was unsafe.
 
 
Ganesh
17:12 / 26.02.02
Okay, fair enough. Wouldn't a more general 'don't talk to strangers' cover the same areas, though? What I'm getting at is, being aware of the addresses of previously convicted sex-offenders doesn't necessarily do much to minimise risk to one's child. Surely you'd need to know what he looked like too, which brings us into the faintly ridiculous sphere of 'this man is dangerous' posters or similar.

I suspect the perceived advantages of 'knowing addresses' are deceptively slight - and, IMHO, don't justify the disadvantages, both to the ex-offender (risk of being attacked by people who are the lynch-mob type) and society in general (risk that the ex-offender takes fright and, like so many, goes underground). I think being aware of ex-offenders' whereabouts is, at best, about the illusion of control of risk rather than it's actual minimisation. At worst, it's about creating a visible target for society's fear and desire for revenge...

[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Ethan Hawke
17:19 / 26.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Surely you'd need to know what he looked like too, which brings us into the faintly ridiculous sphere of 'this man is dangerous' posters or similar.


Faintly ridiculous? It's already happened:


web page

Actually, what I was going to link to was a web site from the State of Connecticut Police Department that a former coworker showed me that included mug shots, list of crimes, and addresses of sex offenders, but that's apparently been shut down due to a court order.


Edited to add an example I found online:

State of Illinois sex offender registry

[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Mr. Todd ]
 
 
Ariadne
17:20 / 26.02.02
I think that we have to at least attempt to rehabilitate people and give them another chance - because they presumably don't choose to be the way they are.

BK - what if your daughter grows up to have a sexual orientation that society doesn't condone? What if she abused a child? She would still be your child and you would, I assume, still love her while 'hating the crime'.

Think about the parents of the men (mostly) whose names are plastered round town and whose houses are burnt down. I'll bet they'd give a whole different argument to the 'these people are evil' argument, and they'd argue their offspring need help, not hatred.

And, of course, that help is only available if they don't have to go into hiding from hate mobs.
 
 
Ganesh
17:25 / 26.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Todd:
Actually, what I was going to link to was a web site from the State of Connecticut Police Department that a former coworker showed me that included mug shots, list of crimes, and addresses of sex offenders, but that's apparently been shut down due to a court order.


I was thinking more locally, really, the slightly naive idea that if one knows the addresses of nearby ex-offenders, that that alone reduces risk of harm to one's child. Presumably a description or mugshot would need to be circulated to all and sundry, and perhaps the ex-offender could be required to wear fluorescent orange or ring a bell whenever he left the house...

Facetious, sure, but how does one ensure that one's child is always 'protected'?
 
 
Not Here Still
17:31 / 26.02.02
This by Ariadne:

Think about the parents of the men (mostly) whose names are plastered round town and whose houses are burnt down. I'll bet they'd give a whole different argument to the 'these people are evil' argument, and they'd argue their offspring need help, not hatred.

And, of course, that help is only available if they don't have to go into hiding from hate mobs.


and this from Ganesh:

men beat their wives but, we're told, are not 'wife-beaters'. In the same way, I often hear the argument that, even though someone has abused his/her child, "they're not an abuser".

To some extent, it's a distinction I can accept. To call someone a 'wife-beater', for example, suggests that he habitually assaults his wife. Moreover, it conjures up a pungently evocative stereotype - an exaggerated monster - in the popular consciousness. Calling someone an 'abuser' or a 'killer' or even a 'thief' evokes other mental images.

So... it's problematic to characterise someone on the basis of their actions.


raise an interesting question as to rehabilitation in my mind:

Providing we accept that someone has done *something* wrong, but they refuse to see it that way and do not want help or rehabilitation - what does society do there?

When do we have a right to intervene and tell someone they need help? Do we?

I don't know. There has to be a line - but where it should be drawn, I find difficult to say.
 
 
Ganesh
17:42 / 26.02.02
Not Me Again: in essence, we need to accept that compromise is necessary, that a) 'rehabilitation' is desirable, but b) the process of rehabilitation cannot 'cure' (especially if someone doesn't believe they've done anything wrong in the first place) and cannot completely eliminate risk. That's not an easy thing for anyone - parent or no - to accept, but it's pretty much all we've got.

[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Not Here Still
17:46 / 26.02.02
Er.. I may be misreading that Ganesh, but it doesn't seem to answer what I was asking: "Do we have a right to try and 'cure' someone who doesn't see themselves as 'ill?'", basically.
 
 
Ganesh
17:49 / 26.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Not Me Again:
Er.. I may be misreading that Ganesh, but it doesn't seem to answer what I was asking: "Do we have a right to try and 'cure' someone who doesn't see themselves as 'ill?'", basically.


How, exactly? If someone doesn't believe they've done anything wrong, even if one assumes that offending behaviour constitutes 'illness' (which, generally, it doesn't) how would one go about forcing a 'cure'? Psychosurgery?
 
 
bitchiekittie
18:18 / 26.02.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ariadne:
BK - what if your daughter grows up to have a sexual orientation that society doesn't condone? What if she abused a child? She would still be your child and you would, I assume, still love her while 'hating the crime'.

are you saying there some sort of parallel betweeen the two? I put no expectations on my child based on the potential of her sexuality, religious leanings, or anything of the sort. however, there are simply some things which are unacceptable. Ive never said "everyone who has ever done anything wrong deserves to be tortured and diiiiiiiiiie" - however, the public deserves a reasonable expectation of awareness when it comes to danger.

no one seems to have a problem with the dangers of the environmental and health hazards of a local industrial spot, even though it might mean hundreds or thousands of jobs are lost. I see this subject as a highly elevated version of this very same thing

Think about the parents of the men (mostly) whose names are plastered round town and whose houses are burnt down. I'll bet they'd give a whole different argument to the 'these people are evil' argument, and they'd argue their offspring need help, not hatred.

again, Ive never once condoned a lynch mob. perhaps you have chosen to read into my comments what you chose, rather than what Ive actually conveyed

And, of course, that help is only available if they don't have to go into hiding from hate mobs.

help comes to those who find it

next time I see a rabid dog in your town, Ill do my best to understand its motivations and illness before notifying the authorities. might be too late for you or yours, but no one wants to violate the poor, sick puppies rights, do they?
 
 
Not Here Still
18:22 / 26.02.02
Fuck it, a huge post on this died and I can't be bothered ressurecting it all.

Also Ganesh, your edit (or my re-reading of your post properly) - seems to have cleared part of what you were saying up to me.

Basically, what I said:

I would be a little worried about forcing a cure on those who didn't see themselves as ill - but as you probably know, pschosurgery (lobotomies etc, yes?), EST and aversion therapies have been used to 'cure' the 'ill' before now.

But often, the 'ill' were 'those who society regards as wrong' which is a different thing entirely.

So there are ways to try and 'cure' people - they're just not very nice.

er... the rest will come back to me, sorry
 
 
Ganesh
18:34 / 26.02.02
quote:Originally posted by bitchiekittie:
[QUOTE]however, there are simply some things which are unacceptable.


Okay, so what's completely unacceptable? And having decided that, what happens next? Society still has to deal with the problem...

quote:however, the public deserves a reasonable expectation of awareness when it comes to danger.

But 'dangerousness' isn't that easily or accurately predictable; at best, we have an extremely vague sense of possible risk. How does 'awareness' (by which I presume you mean knowing the addresses of local ex-offenders) actually address that risk, in practical terms?

quote:no one seems to have a problem with the dangers of the environmental and health hazards of a local industrial spot, even though it might mean hundreds or thousands of jobs are lost. I see this subject as a highly elevated version of this very same thing

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean 'why do we address inanimate health hazards but not human ones', I'd have to say I don't think they're similar. Once it's established that such-and-such industrial pollutant is harmful to one's health, then the risks over time are a) relatively predictable/measurable, and b) geographically static. We know there is a risk from X amount of asbestos inhalation over time, and we know the asbestos plant ain't likely to wander off anywhere. The problem, therefore, is relatively simply addressed.

quote:again, Ive never once condoned a lynch mob.

No, but it'd be naive to suppose that publishing the address of an ex-offender (which you are advocating) doesn't place him at extremely high risk of attack from lynch mobs, whether you personally 'condone' them or not. Which, in turn, makes them far more likely to go underground.

And again, the rabid dog analogy is overly simplistic. Rabies is a well-understood disease process with a relatively predictable outsome, treated and untreated. Human beings who have committed offences in the past are a) probably not 'ill', and b) not nearly that straightforward.

[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Ganesh
18:44 / 26.02.02
Not Me Again: we haven't really stuck to any single, specific example of 'offending' within this thread, so it's kinda dangerous to conceptualise it as 'illness'. When I say 'rehabilitation' I'm using it outwith an illness context, to mean more of a process of guided reflection, adjustment and so on.

Psychosurgery and ECT have been used successfully to cure depression, sure. In the 'bad old days' (and I'm thinking back to the first half of the twentieth century), they may have been tried in an attempt to address the likes of 'psychopathic disorder'. They were generally unhelpful, though (and in many cases, made things worse) and have never been used since.

Let's try not to merge 'punishment', 'rehabilitation' and 'treatment' here. Most people who offend, even violently, are neither psychiatrically ill nor psychopaths. Seeking a pharmocological or surgical 'cure' for society's problems is seductive but misguided.

[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
alas
19:43 / 26.02.02
this topic is actually quite close to me for reasons i cannot talk about completely openly. however, as a mother i completely understand bitchiekittie's fears. my two daughters are teenagers.

but, that said, i also know that when i act primarily on the basis of fear, i make bad decisions at worst and at best do things that may offer a kind of ritualistic reassurance--like putting quadruple locks on a door in a house with paper thin walls...--things which, in the end don't really serve to make the situation move forward in a useful way, and the energy for which might very well be more productively spent elsewhere.

so where are we? some people abuse children opportunistically. others are paedophiles. some people do engage in abusive behavior, in moments arising from peculiar circumstances that are unlikely to arise again. should all these folks be treated the same by the law? how do we know which is which?

in speaking to Ganesh's point, i'm reminded of the chilling language of the Alabama supreme Court's recent decision in a custody case involving a lesbian parent, as quoted in a statement by The Rev. Troy D. Perry, founder of the MCC--
quote:
FEBRUARY 22, 2002
Justice Moore, in his ruling this past week in a custody case involving a
lesbian parent, called for the confinement and execution of homosexuals, ....
In the court's decision, Justice Moore wrote, "The State carries the power of
the sword, that is, the power to prohibit conduct with physical penalties,
such as confinement and even execution. It must use that power to prevent the
subversion of children toward this lifestyle, to not encourage criminal
lifestyle." The official court opinion also described homosexuality as
"abhorrent, immoral, detestable...a violation of nature's God upon which this
Nation was founded...and...an inherent evil."

this is an "extreme" position, obviously, and is not the position that bk is taking certainly, but i post it here to support Ganesh's uneasiness about the ways that "sexual abuse" can be defined by those in power ...

so, taking this from another perspective: i have known several women who were sexually abused as children by men who the family trusted. I can think of four specific cases right now: each case was handled differently, none was handled in a way that left no scars. three of these four were able to take much the same view as Runce seems to take of his father, in the end.

One after much therapy became perhaps the most amazingly powerful good person i know. she has made peace with her former abuser, and her family's ineptitude. One after no therapy at all--who has been one of my dearest friends for a very long time--has come to a kind of peace about her experience, although I know that during adolescence suicide was, in her words, "always an option."

a third has had a little therapy but--mainly--has a very stable home where the message that she is valued as a person, that she will be protected from others while she's a minor, and, most importantly, that she has the right to be clear and firm about her own sexuality with everyone--she has, it would seem truly overridden whatever may have happened in the past. of course one can't be 100% sure about these things, but in this case i feel pretty confident that her life has not been irretrievably broken by the event that seems to have occured in her extreme youth.

finally, however, one dear woman i know has been pretty much broken by her life experiences, and my heart sickens at the event that may be at the core of her brokeness. yet, it is still very hard to clearly point a finger of blame in her case, because her situation was/is complex, she is complex, and the decisions made by people around her after the fact were made in good faith although in the end they were often probably not the "right" ones.

hindsight is a curse, in some ways, in some situations.

I don't want to minimize the trauma of sexual abuse. I have seen its effects up close. But each case I have known has been so complex, that I don't know that the law can ever offer a one-size-fits-all solution.

alas.
 
 
bitchiekittie
10:14 / 27.02.02
well, we are stuck then: theres no way to protect yourself from the truly dangerous sorts without victimizing the ones who arent or maybe never were. clearly there needs to be changes in the legal system to counter the lack of distinctions - but what do we do in the meantime?

Im purely rabid when it comes to the safety of my child - no amount of rationalization or logic in the world can ever convince me that there is any other way for me to be. but I can see your points, there are people who did relatively very minor things that are put into the same classification as those who performed violent and/or repeated acts. which is simply wrong. so what to do?
 
 
Ariadne
11:07 / 27.02.02
Just to clear up a point where I've been misunderstood:

When I said 'BK - what if your daughter grows up to have a sexual orientation that society doesn't condone? What if she abused a child?', BK replied 'are you saying there some sort of parallel between the two?'

I meant the two as one - what if she grew up and found herself sexually attracted to children? Unlikely, maybe, but it happens. She may have the strength to never act on it, or she may not. But whatever she did, you would presumably still care about and want to help her.

Just wanted to clear that one up in case anyone else misread my post, too...
 
 
Ganesh
13:23 / 27.02.02
quote:Originally posted by bitchiekittie:
well, we are stuck then: theres no way to protect yourself from the truly dangerous sorts without victimizing the ones who arent or maybe never were. clearly there needs to be changes in the legal system to counter the lack of distinctions - but what do we do in the meantime?


Not just a legal problem; also having to face up the fact that risk can never be completely eliminated from one's (and one's child's) life.

The way ahead, as I see it, is to make a concerted effort to go along with the mechanism that yields the best possible (albeit imperfect) results rather than what feels good/righteous/reassuring. By this, I mean accepting whichever system results in the most ex-offenders being readily locatable/available to the police at any given time (ie. resisting the quasi-vigilante 'feel-good' Meghan's Law approach). In short, trying to be pragmatic and sticking with whatever (inherently flawed) mechanism actually works.

In short, we should be aiming for an evidence-based approach rather than a predominantly emotive one - and (although I know it's difficult) trying to take the long view as opposed to the NIMBY one.

[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Not Here Still
16:38 / 27.02.02
Ganesh: Ah, shit, I must really have been on a 'misunderstand me' mission last night.

I wasn't arguing for people to be 'cured', I was actually arguing against the concept.

I'm fairly sure that ECT and aversion therapy were used to treat the 'crime' of homosexuality among other crimes, and I was more questioning how we see crime than 'seeking a pharmocological or surgical 'cure' for society's problems,' which is quite defintely misguided and ain't never going to happen.

I could try and explain more, but I think I use up all my articulacy(?) in work, and can't seem to get my ideas understood here.

Ho hum.
 
 
Ganesh
10:01 / 28.02.02
Not Me Again: yeah, you're right about homosexuality but, if I remember rightly, many of the 'cures' were administered at the request of the individual concerned, because they wanted to 'go straight' - rather than being laid down formally in response to homosexuality being a 'crime'.

I think I was more concerned that the concepts of 'crime' and 'illness' were being used interchangeably, and I wanted to emphasise their distinction.
 
 
bitchiekittie
10:43 / 28.02.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
[QB]

Not just a legal problem; also having to face up the fact that risk can never be completely eliminated from one's (and one's child's) life.[qb]

when my daughter was still small, I realized something frightening that Ive since embraced. I would kill for her. easily. and that if anything were to happen to her my life would simply become meaningless. sounds overly dramatic, but its true. nothing and no one could stand in the way of me protecting her, every nuance of her happy and healthy existence is precious to me. sometimes I have to really restrain myself from being overbearingly protective of her. I cant possibly express these things without them seeming theatrically embellished, but honestly, truly, if anyone were to seriously harm my child they would be dead. I realize how stupid it seems - Id go to jail and shed have no mother, yada yada. but there you have it, no amount of logic or reasoning could change that. I also know that this isnt a feeling exclusive to me, many parents would have the same reaction. and have.

Im just afraid I couldnt live with myself if I blindly allowed my child to go into a situation (like into a neighbors home without my supervision) where she was hurt. I could not live with that, ganesh.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
10:53 / 28.02.02
Then why are you supporting legislation that will make it statistically more likely that...

Oh, never mind.
 
 
bitchiekittie
11:11 / 28.02.02
quote:Originally posted by bitchiekittie:
I am not, do not, and will not say that the justice system is a regularly just structure. its clearly not, and theres a lot that needs to be done to fix that


honestly, haus. I support very little that my government does. I just dont know what the alternatives are - are there any? fear makes us stupid, I plead guilty to that.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:37 / 28.02.02
I think Haus was referring specifically to this bit:

quote:Originally posted by bitchiekittie:
I, however, feel I have the right to know if theres a sexual predator in my neighborhood.


The drawbacks of which he described as follows:

quote:The warnings go up, concerned parents go over and burn the house down, the offender goes underground to avoid a lynch mob and is separated from whatever counselling is available to them as well as forced out of the one place the police could keep an eye on them.

Even if you'd never engage in that kind of lynch mob activity yourself, who do you respond to the argument that on a strictly practical level, making someone's conviction for a sex offence public is actually going to increase the level of risk to potential victims?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:56 / 28.02.02
To bring this back to Crime and Stigma (which I keep reading, I think as a result of the Circumcision thread, as "slime and smegma) - as BK says, fear makes you stupid. And in this case, we have the fear-inducing stigma, or miasma, of the Sex Offender, who Preys On Our Children. A beast whose activities are so repulsive to our sense of what is right that we can only react with atavistic hatred. Even if that reaction actually puts our children at greater risk. In a sense, the purity of our reaction, the way that it allows us to believe that our reaction is right and pure and shows the right attitude to our children, actually becomes more important than...um....our children.

I remember seeing a bloke with a "For Sarah" badge a few months ago on the train, and being suddenly suffused with a cold fear, because that man was a snap-in lego component of a mob, one element of a corporate entity with no brain, no heart and a hundred hands.

(Bio for Americans - "For Sarah" was a tabloiid campaign in the UK to sell papers on the back of the rape and murder of Sarah Payne. In the wake of her death, and the publicatin in said tabloid of the addresses and identities of various nonces in the community, a series of mob scenes followed in which the sword of righteousness descended on the next door neighbour of a paedophile, a bloke who looked a bit like a paedophile, and, most hilariously of all, a paediatrician who awoke to find PAEDO painted across her house).
 
 
Ganesh
13:20 / 28.02.02
quote:Originally posted by bitchiekittie:
Im just afraid I couldnt live with myself if I blindly allowed my child to go into a situation (like into a neighbors home without my supervision) where she was hurt. I could not live with that, ganesh.


Which is all perfectly laudable - but sex offenders have been known, occasionally, to leave the house and venture elsewhere. Sometimes permanently, if they reckon there's a lynch mob after them - thus increasing the level of risk for your own child and others.

[ 28-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Fist Fun
13:26 / 28.02.02
A couple of examples came to mind along the lines of crime and forgiveness.
My Dad has a big garden which has a tendency to become overgrown. A few years ago, in a bid to combat this he enlisted the labour of a group of ex-offenders at a halfway house to come over and tidy things up one afternoon. It was part of a community project which helps ex-offenders find jobs and integrate back into society.
In general it was a success but afterwards we found quite a few things had gone missing around the house.
Now skip forward some years. A few days ago I was walking home from the uni library. An old, dishevelled looking fellow started shuffling alongside and striking up a conversation. Where are you from? What brought you down here? "I work here" Can you lend me a cigarette, some money. I made polite, embarassed conversation as we walked down the road.
As we came to the end of the road he turned into the half-way hostel for ex-offenders.
"A job, it would be nice to have one of them", he said.
 
 
Ganesh
13:29 / 28.02.02
Interesting anecdote, Buk; are you trying to draw a more general point or conclusion from it, though?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:32 / 28.02.02
Possibly that old man *was* his dad...
 
 
Ganesh
13:38 / 28.02.02
Or Jesus?

[Edited to say that sounds more facetious than I meant it to. I'm genuinely interested in what conclusions, if any, you drew from the experiences, Buk.]

[ 28-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Fist Fun
13:43 / 28.02.02
I was just thinking about the two situations. I suppose the point is that you try and help someone out and you end getting burnt in a very minor but still 'told you so' way...but what are you supposed to do? Not help people, not give them a chance.
I suppose the point is to accept human failings but still try and do something constructive, ya know.

Edited to note: Don't worry Ganesh about sounding facetious. I know exactly how naff that post looks, but you know best I could do, human failing and that...

[ 28-02-2002: Message edited by: Buk ]
 
  

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