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The Magick Forum - History, Identities and Standards

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
The Natural Way
09:35 / 21.03.03
Booshka: yr argument for not sending good vibes is, well, just so full of holes. Where do good vibes end and the humanitarian aid begin? Why do good vibes = mind control? What if the good vibes just effect situations, not heads (y'know, like that humanitarian aid I mentioned earlier)? Etc.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
12:50 / 21.03.03
Reflect, I think those are good ideas. The contadiction I saw was in trying to force others to take a particular approach, in the interest of not forcing people to take particular approaches. But I see, now, how that is different from what you're talking about.

I don't know about you all, but I find it heartwarming that Sebastian is getting such pleasure from this thread.
 
 
Quantum
13:16 / 21.03.03
bless 'm. It's nice to give out so much joy. I found the picture of *&Obelix a concise nonverbal expression of the zen master's response to the question "Does a dog have Buddha nature?" Clearly Sebastian is an ascended master sent to enlighten us with his enigmatic sigillic expressions of ineffable truths.
 
 
Babooshka
14:50 / 21.03.03
Runce: I'm not sure I understand you. My response to angel's question was not that one shouldn't send the energy; it was rather to open up one's perspectives and options concerning how to send the energy so that it's effective and useful for the recipient and not just an excercise in patting oneself on the back.

I was thinking more along the lines of good vibes=humanitarian aid, but that's only in terms of angel's specific example. In the other example, I wanted to convey that, if you want to send love & healing to someone, there's nothing wrong with telling them so and allowing the recipient to decide if that's what ze wants. That way the exchange empowers both sender & receiver.
 
 
cusm
16:47 / 21.03.03
You know, it would be nice if we could cut dry lines between intent of magick and affecting eachother. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. Magick in its purest form happens any time we intent at all, so its always going on to some extent. Every time we communicate, we work magick on each other. You can't shut it off, its just something we all deal with. As a magickian, we learn to strengthen ourselves against the constant barrage of influence upon us, and learnto work with it. Even learn to not do it so much ourselves. So in a way, it is a Darwinian situation, being involved in magick. You have to accept to some degree that you'll have to deal with energies of others coming your way, be they intentional or not, or good willing or not. The upside of it all is, its tragicly easy to shield the lot out. Unless someone is really going out of their way to attack you, its trivial to protect yourself against this. So, its hardly worth worrying about if someone is sending you "good vibes", as "good vibes" don't have much penetration value if you reject them.

On the other hand, the most effective curses are the ones a person has convinced themselves that they suffer from. One does not really even need to cast a curse, just convince someone that you did, and they'll do the rest. The lesson there being, don't underestmate the defensive power of ignoring hostilities against you, nor your own ability to hex yourself in worrying over it.
 
 
Babooshka
18:19 / 21.03.03
While I do see your point, cusm, the "ignore it and it will all just go away" idea doesn't always work. Also, there is a difference, quite a large difference in fact, between thoughts and actions. I completely agree with you that filtering out "vibes" and thoughts from other people is quite easy. It's actions that tend to cause more problems.

When someone is acting a certain way, and everyone is "ignoring it so it will go away" instead of confronting the matter, that tends to give that person more incentive to continue and expand upon the behavior, since no-one is stopping hir. That's how difficult situations get worse.
 
 
cusm
19:19 / 21.03.03
Continuing to confront difficult situations after the actions have been addressed also makes things worse, as well. Once everything has been said that can be said, there's not much more for it. Let it be.
 
 
Seth
15:27 / 22.03.03
cusm: Any proposals I've made don't relate in the slightest to people's off-board practise. No-one is able to or even wants to have an effect on that. If people want to adopt any of those precepts for their individual practise and self-regulate then that's fine, but that isn't my intention. The idea is to use them as a basis to question any on-site workings, whether it's people asking for input or using the board itself as a platform.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
19:38 / 22.03.03
When someone is acting a certain way, and everyone is "ignoring it so it will go away" instead of confronting the matter, that tends to give that person more incentive to continue and expand upon the behavior, since no-one is stopping hir.

I don't know about this, my experience is that "ignoring it" generally works to stop poor behaviour. Usually with no reaction there is nothing to keep the persons attention. Perhaps thats only trolls.
 
 
Salamander
00:47 / 24.03.03
i haven't been a part of this whole enterprise for long, but it would seem to me that even though persons can be anoying or even insulting, or just using bad logic, that to exclude even them doesn't seem to be in the spirit of these forums. My opinion is that all who wish to pay attention to someone should, and all who will ignore should. as for harrasment...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:06 / 24.03.03
I'd like to apologise for how late I am answering all of this. Forgive me if I repeat anything anyone else has said- I'm lame and forgetful.
Babooshka directed this towards me and I shall attempt to answer in the most attentive way possible.

say someone on this board feels that using Magick to manipulate other people is "ethical" according to their belief, and they start doing just that - using magickal techniques to assert their will over other posters. Would you allow this to happen because, hey, they just have different "ethics"?

I think this is totally invalid. No joke. What the hell are you talking about- magical manipulation? That's all we do, we share ideas and we manipulate each other through words and the vast majority of you people use sigils to help you out because obviously that isn't a form of magical manipulation that effects everyone around you. Hello? Living in a parallel universe much? Ethical code differs... hmm.

Haus - yes I suppose I was making the assumption that 'moral' and 'ethics' were interchangeable terms. Let me make it clearer for myself.

A set of principles of right conduct.
A theory or a system of moral values: “An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain” (Gregg Easterbrook).
ethics (used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy.
ethics (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession: medical ethics.

I rather suspect we're talking about the last definition. Hmmmm? Magickal ethics differ and we will not be able to work around that. Forget punching people in the face... this isn't going to work. I'm sorry to be defeatist. If I was Wiccan I wouldn't morally approve of sigils, as it is that is not part of my ethical code because I don't have one but I do not believe that such a code can exist on this board when it will be spread over people who practice in such distinct and specific ways.

Babooshka, Babooshka, Babooshka- I understand what you mean when you say, "there are things you don't do because you're not an idiot..." What I'm not sure of is why you feel that concept is different from an ethical code of conduct.

As explained above I don't have a code of conduct, particularly where magick is concerned, I have defensive barriers, a couple of morals, revenge, some spite and a lot of worship and invocation but no ethical code. That would be because I'm entirely eclectic, follow no tradition and do what my patron tells me to. I believe whole heartedly in revenge, I do not believe in the threefold rule and most of what I magickally do is quite self orientated, sacrificial, dark and based around the fact that I have no patience for people with no training or protection who fuck with things they don't know about. We should be able to clear up the mess if we are going to engage with magick or bow our heads and ask someone else to do it for us. This forum needs to work on a collective basis and things need to be judged by situation because when magick comes in to the rock stadium we cannot make some half arsed judgement about what is/isn't right and thus we cannot create a code to exist by.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant but I feel tired and ranty and actually really fucking pissed off all of a sudden and I don't want to post this now but I spent so fucking long writing it that I'm going to anyway.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:43 / 24.03.03
That post was totally horrible and full of defeat and arrogance and moreover in hindsight I think I'm wrong. I think you should ignore it all completely and roll your eyes at my inner cow.
 
 
Seth
07:17 / 24.03.03
Anna: No-one's responded to it yet, so you could still consider deleting the post. Alternatively, you could post why you disagree with it (because at the moment your last post doesn't make it clear which parts you take issue with). Up to you.
 
 
Sebastian
10:06 / 24.03.03
Hey Anna, try posting a pic that summarises your impressions... the boys here love it.
 
 
Seth
21:08 / 24.03.03
Sebastian: the picture seems to summarise your contempt, but doesn't give any indication of your reasoning. This is why I asked for clarification. In fact, I'd like to hear the opinions of anyone who isn't in agreement.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:57 / 24.03.03
Actually I've considered deleting it but I don't think I will because it does answer the points addressed to me by Babooshka even if it is a little heavy handed. I would like to say that it's in no way directed at your precepts Reflect because they're certainly sound and I don't see why anyone would have a problem with them unless they were intending to purposefully twist everyone in the forum to their wicked little way. Have you thought about adding-

Any working that concerns the board must be posted, for all to view, on the board.
 
 
Seth
07:45 / 25.03.03
In a perfect world the board would have access to information on all workings that relate to it. Unfortunately it can't be implemented in practise: we can't request facts or give an opinion on things that we aren't made aware of. I guess that's why it's advisable to have some means of protection, not because there are definite specific threats, but because it's just generally good practise.
 
 
D'Israeli
09:59 / 25.03.03
reflect's ideas certainly appear to make a great deal of sense:

- Deal with every subject/situation in an individual manner

... which I assume to mean that every case and every person should be treated on it's merits, or lack or. Therefore right away we're not talking about creating blanket rules that exclude certain people or methodologies.

- Treat others as you would expect to be treated

Works as well for the Magick as for any other aspect of life. Everyone has standards of behaviour that they expect from other people towards them. If you're instantly offended by anything approaching an ad hominem approach, it might be advisable if you examined your own approach to see if you yourself operate in such a manner. This is basic social arithmetic.

- Don't coerce or control the subject...

This simply moves further from the above "do to others..." entreaty to its application in magic(k). Forget whether you personally are capable of defending yourself against intrusive workings. Even if this is the case, it's my experience that invasion or coercion carries its own peculiar poison. Even if the effect fails, the fact that someone attempted the working, whatever it may be, can inflict psychic damage all on its own.

Say for example your best friend's partner attempts to seduce you. Even though you reject hir advances, your relationship with them is probably irreparably harmed, and your relationship with your best friend is also compromised to a certain extent. It may also affect the way you view the idea of monogamy in long term relationships, especially if you held up their relationship as a working example. There are many other ways this situation could affect you, and this is all without sleeping with hir.

Of course, the worker may not realise that you might react in such a manner. The best friend and his partner may have a much more open relationship than you believe. So...

...or work without their knowledge or consent

... the only way to be absolutely sure that a working, social or magickal, will not offend, damage, or cause any form of trouble, is to ask the person concerned beforehand. If your friend's partner had only told you about their open relationship and that any advances had your friend's blessing, and discussed the matter with you before... well, advancing, you could have evaluated her intentions in line with the way you feel about such situations, and about that one in particular. But she didn't bother to take you into account, and now there are schisms...

- Remain honest and accountable, providing a means for the subject to provide feedback and ask questions

...which could easily have been avoided. Your friend's partner talks to you about it, and offers you the opportunity to come back when you've had a chance to think about it, to consult with others, including her partner, your best friend. If you decided to accept after this discussion, it could actually be an incredibly positive experience. But you still have the opportunity to say NO.

- Ensure that everyone involved is aware of any potential risks and unknown variables

Which just naturally follows on from being honest and accountable.

There are some who might argue that, in the above example, the approach taken takes all the spontaneity and fun out of a casual seduction. It's possible that this might be the case. But that's only relevant if you believe that the spontaneity is the important thing, and not the person you intend to be spontaneous with.

It comes down to what you came into magick for. To impose your will on others? To work without thought or care for the consequences to others, just to yourself? If that's the person you want to be...
 
 
Sebastian
10:56 / 25.03.03
Hey, D'Israeli, we would have seen your post even if you posted it just once...

Reflect would like to listen the opinions of all who disagree, thus impyling you can either agree or disagree with... whatever this is for, but Reflect, I honestly think that matters can be more varied than this.

But before I elaborate I would like to ask one question to anybody who is still burning his eyes reading this here, before the discussion sinks to the depths. If I come to the board and say I made a little working of my own regarding -and concerning- the board, in a gathering with some other folks, and then refuse to give further information... some of you here would honestly be a little bit restless, am I correct?
 
 
angel
13:14 / 25.03.03
Sebastian, the software behind Barbelith is creaking a bit at the moment under the weight of the amount of posting happening across the Board right now. A number of people, including myself, have been caught like this recently. All D'Israeli has to do is request the two additional posts be deleted (he needs to do this as he wrote the posts) and then we will eventually see the single post I suspect he intended.
 
 
Sebastian
13:20 / 25.03.03
You suggesting that happened because of software error? I assumed he hit the "Post Reply" button three times in a row while the post was being sent.
 
 
D'Israeli
13:55 / 25.03.03
No, I hit 'post' once and went to make a coffee. Honest.

Thought about your question, and I'm afraid it just throws up further questions for me. Like what kind of (obviously hypothetical) working, and why are you doing it? When you say this hypothetical piece of work is regarding and concerning the board, do you mean the mechanical workings of the message board itself, the Underground as an entity, the members of said entity, etc? And, probably most importantly, why on earth wouldn't you divulge information about a working designed to affect others? In a situation like this, refusal to explain or clarify (or even provide details) immediately causes unease. You can see that, right, Sebastian?
 
 
cusm
15:57 / 25.03.03
True that. You are either working with people, or upon them.
 
 
Seth
21:08 / 25.03.03
Fair point, Sebastian. There are more possible stances than either/or. Let's have people's opinions, then.

Still waiting your yours.
 
 
iconoplast
22:56 / 25.03.03
Just to clarify something that occured to me, reading this:

What this thread is looking for/talking about is a set of Ethical/Normative Precepts for The Board.

Not for Magic.

In other words, we want to establish some kind of Moral Esperanto so we can collectively talk about all the weird stuff we are individually into.

Personally, I think a discussion of what kind of workings are appropriate or allowed is irrelevant - workings are private things. If people are posting their workings publically, then the working is a public thing, and is available as an object to the opinionating influences of the board.

I guess I'm still pondering the leap from discussion to action - no one seems to question that the same ethics that create a safe forum to discuss things will translate smoothly to creating a place to do things.

I dunno. Not sure if this is actually clarifying anything. I just think this discussion is doing, or not doing, something peculiar and funny, and am curious about that.
 
 
Sebastian
00:54 / 26.03.03
WOW... (make that a WOW...). Iconoplast, you are an Ace, you, jewel. I was actually going to say you are my soul mate, but I am so pedantic myself that I would have been unable to put in such simple words.

I understand and see your question D'Israeli, but from what I read above and remember from older discussions, even if I give away the details someone... or something, will have that writhing, hideous feelig inside, tenaciously guaranteeing that myself, or whomever is involved, is lying, lying. But the question I posited was actually itended to probe the overall notions of "powerlessness" that would have come up, but I'm afraid this thread may be coming to an end indeed.

And Reflect, what a demanding despot you've turned out to be, also considering you opened this thread... lucky I refrained of posting more Asterix and Obelix pictures, since you may in fact be requesting something I may or may not have, but I'll give a piece anyway.

Now, excuse me for a minute as I insult and degrade my wife a bit.

...

[SLAM!!] There she goes, two tears down her cheeks. Oh, never mind, she's my very Special Ace.

Anyway, what I was thinking these days is that what mommy and daddy try to teach to every indivdual of a living specie is, in short, that its a predatory universe: you eat, and you are most likely to be eaten. So, just as you don't walk into public or semi-public places kissing and hugging every person you feel like doing so, and as you also don't expect the greatest of graces to fall upon you, I would say you also don't do so alike when comming into much less hurtful semi-public internet boards. And if you feel like following "what your heart tells you", I would recommend that you really be prepared to meet whatever your heart will guide you too -and then it is much unlikely mommy and daddy have prepared you for this one-, myself being someone who more than once realised was not at the height of responsibility to cope with the many events and consequences that ensued from following "my heart's lead".

Now, this discussion was started with the intent to bring change, and thus change will come. Just as Grant exposed it in his first post in this discussion, by pointing to a page with the life cycles of, well, of mostly anything you can point a finger to, change is but a function of any process, living or not. But I would like to bring forward the notion of this discussion and its inherent restlessness as being rather a symptom of impending change, and not the throttle lever of change itself.

You know, we've all been casted here to play very specific roles, roles which, as becomes evident from the posts above, have been being played for quite a long time. But I would not put on the shoulders of any of the casted the responsibility of bringing forth change, whole, large, systemic change, or even having motivated the need of it. And behold, because I also do not advocate to just stop the whole thing here. In fact, I do recommend that we play our roles till the healthful end, but maybe bearing through our considerations the light and refreshing impression that we are here little more than red blood cells unable to tell exactly if we are going through veins or arteries, although with a very specific function set by, and for, the system itself, which is the sum of cells, tissues, and organs, the big, bloody, misterious, Organism. It is that light, humorous an elegant spirit I can only but honestly wish for us to go and keep alive for playing roles, responsibly playing any of our roles, even Death. Or insulting wife.

And that's still the subtle point of bringing systemic change: nobody knows for certain "how-to", and no crazy bunch of red blood cells moving through your forearm's veins can convince you to stop watching that shitty "Friends" episode on TV and go do something more oxygenating. The heart beats faster as change comes, and the blood boils they say. Introspection preceeds it, just as most of this has been so far. GO check back the Wiki Life Cycle. See you at the rebirth in splinters, whatever that turns out to be.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:15 / 26.03.03
Personally, I think a discussion of what kind of workings are appropriate or allowed is irrelevant - workings are private things

Well yes but I don't think any of this is an attempt to inhibit our own workings because that would be pretty low down dirty game playing really. If, though, you're trying to screw around with the board/users of said board- well that is what this is about. To bring it back to the very beginning (cos, like, everything's cyclical) this is just about misuse of the forum and group, board-related, workings going wrong.

(Sebastian- yeah Friends is shit isn't it!)
 
 
Seth
08:19 / 26.03.03
Sebastian: I urged you to give a more detailed response because I'm familiar with you and your contributions, and felt that your perspective would be interesting (particularly as you have a strong NLP element to your background). Your previous comments added very little to the discussion, but you've now added quite a considerable chunk for people to think over. Yeah, I did push you harder for a reponse than I would some other contributors, but I figured you could handle it (and you clearly can), as you'd already made it clear through your one-liners that you held an opinion. Thank you for adding your voice.

Re: the demanding despot comment... does encouraging people to voice opinions that are different to my own constitute misuse of power? The despot comment is fairly inappropriate because I have no real authority at all in this forum: I'm just a janitor. The act of beginning this thread has been the most controversial thing I've contributed to Barbelith so far, and people have responded to those actions with a range of opinions (on board and via PM). I'm happy to answer people's questions in a Policy thread or via PM, and I'm always up for admitting my mistakes (if I've genuinely made mistakes).
 
 
Sebastian
10:04 / 26.03.03
Okay man, c'mon, lets make that a lovely demanding janitor then... and it doesn't escape me how you've cared for this discussion, as it probably hasn't escaped you that I also love controversy.
 
 
Quantum
10:54 / 26.03.03
'we want to establish some kind of Moral Esperanto so we can collectively talk about all the weird stuff we are individually into.' (Iconoplast)

This reflects some thoughts I've been having recently on Magickal traditions as languages. If several Magicians are members of the same order (e.g. Golden Dawn, Wicca) they have a common paradigm and language they share. This allows them to talk about all the weird stuff they are individually into.
On Barbelith we are dealing with people from a wide variety of magical backgrounds. What we are attempting is the formation of a metatradition in a sense, a system that allows people to meaningfully communicate despite their different beliefs and assumptions about Magick.
As most posters are eloquent and intelligent, we can write about general magick stuff and be understood, but when we get down to details often only posters from similar backgrounds can contribute. The same with morals and ethics.

If we are establishing a 'moral esperanto', a common ground we can agree on, we are effectively founding a school (in the loosest sense) and perhaps should be aware of it.

Just a thought.
 
 
Seth
11:41 / 26.03.03


 
 
cusm
17:12 / 26.03.03
Ok, so to attemt to ground this again in manifestation, what does this all mean for the board? That is, what standards can we agree on that might be worth posting to the FAQ so people can know what to expect, and what will be expected of them?

* This is a public forum. Do not share personal details unless you are comfortable with anyone discovering them.

However, this board attempts to prepare some degree of "safe space". Therefore:

* The topics of this forum can be of a very intimately sensitive nature. In discussion, please attempt to argue the point and not the poster, seeking constructive discussion.

* Nothing Is True: Therefore, no philosophical opinions shared here should be denounced as Unacceptibly False. We accept that we use different methods and cosmologies, and on matters of religious import must agree to disagree if we can not constructively criticize. There will be no calling of heretics here. We're all heretics anyway

* No recruitment: Attempts to cull the members of this board to join your personal cult will be met with stiff resistance and mockery. Consider this similar to a ban on commercial advertisement.

* Identity: Keep in mind that personal identity is often impossible to determine here, as the persona used is often a constructed one (see: Fiction Suits). In order to maintain consistency, strive to treat a suit as it is presented, and not make assumptions about the person behind the suit. Doing so can be both offensive, and dangerous in the case of assumptions of trust.

* Castings: Please do not work magicks upon other board members without their express permission. Violations of this rule may be met with the efforts of group workings performed by the members of this board to enforce this rule. You have been warned.

This last bit, I think, should be enforced through Dabht or similar workings. Bringing this all up may be a good oppotunity for folks to actually do just that, run a charging to empower a servitor to enforce this. Should be a good exercise in community unity, yes?

* Group workings: The guidelines for group workings will be set by those organizing them, and should be followed. Workings on the board may be overseen by board servitors to enforce protection of participants. These workings may extend to off board activites. Do so at your own risk. The management takes no responsibility for any trouble you get yourself into for not being careful.

How's that for a draft? Comments, revisions, etc welcome. If this passes well enough here, it will be moved to the wiki for further refinement.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
20:05 / 26.03.03
Posted Cusm's draft to the wiki, here: MagickHistoryIdentitiesStandards
 
 
Quantum
17:23 / 16.08.05
*bump* I couldn't find that on the wiki, but my web-fu is poor.
Since we have had some poster turnover since this thread was last seen, thought I'd shine a light on it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:48 / 16.08.05
The page in the new wiki is here: The Magick Forum - History, Identities and Standards
 
  

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