Barbelith Underground > Temple > The Magick Forum - History, Identities and Standards

Before the obligatory Haus-bashing ensues:

How can we operate as a community while living within the constraints of the message board medium? Is it possible to trust other members of the board when all we are faced with is a fictionsuit? What are the implications of online requests for magickal workings or assistance in a medium in which identity is so fluid a construct? Magick is so sensitive a subject: how can we be sure the people we're talking to are who we think they are or who they say they are?

This is a difficult question to answer. Personally I have come to the conclusion that it is not possible to trust potential magickal partners when all I have to go by is an online construct. Despite how others may “feel”, it is physically and psychically impossible to accurately ascertain the motives and machinations of online fictionsuits. However much one may “like” someone’s online persona, it is not the same as actually getting to know and understand a real live human being via physical cues, face-to-face interaction, access to alternate sources of information about that person and seeing how this person handles other areas of their life.

Deluding yourself that you’ll just “have to place trust/have faith” in an online persona is not only lazy thinking but very dangerous. Assuming that you’re “smart” or “psychic” enough to suss out who’s right and who’s shite based solely on what someone posts to a bulletin board may stoke one’s ego at the expense of seriously fucking with one’s psyche.

And if folks really think the magickal workings aren't focused enough, try to find any other board that even tries. – chris23

That’s probably a very smart move on their part, to “not even try”. Perhaps we should follow their example and stop trying to do things that aren’t ethically doable with this medium.

What constitutes harrassment? Is there a mechanism we can put in place to deal with this kind of behaviour?

Before I answer this (and I do intend to answer this!), I will state outright that comparing harassment/abuse via text and harassment/abuse moving off the board into real life is completely irrelevant to what reflect is trying to discuss. Such comparisons serve as distractions, as a means to avoid the issue. Clearly if a poster is harassing people off the board this should be dealt with IMMEDIATELY via the appropriate authorities (police, ISP providers etc) and this person should be taken off the board. Abuse is not free speech.

There is a consistent tendency in the Magick Forum to conflate criticism of someone’s methods or behavior with an attack on the individual. This is a clever way for the person with dubious methods/behavior to gain the sympathy vote without actually having to answer to the criticism. Once again, lazy thinking: The idea is not the person, and an attack on the idea should not be construed as an attack on the person. Unfortunately, some folks on this Forum cannot make this simple distinction. Hence problems. Hence this thread.

Harassment does not leave room for discussion or debate. For example: receiving Private Messages every day, at the same time each day, with no pertinent message except a declarative sentence with the word “pink” in it does not invite any response but “WTF?”. The receipt of Private Messages spewing forth threatening sub-satanic drivel would, under normal circumstances, usually garner a chuckle and a delete. When they combine and alternate, coming at the exact same time each day, from the same person, I would say that is abuse of the Private Message function. Private Message interaction with the intent of causing discomfort to another poster, even if the content isn’t specifically threatening, constitutes harassment.

Responding to criticism or questioning with remarks of a racist, sexist or homophobic nature is abusive behavior and should not be tolerated. However, it should be noted that accusing someone of using aggressively sexual behavior as a means to obscure issues is not the same as calling someone a “skanky slut”. The difference lies in the opening to allow the other person to respond.

Recently while poring over the archives, I noticed that a certain poster was undergoing the peculiar trauma of being followed from forum to forum by certain posters who ze had strongly disagreed with; these posters were not responding to the topics at hand but instead made desperate attempts to annoy and aggravate said poster by means of threadrot. This seems to fall under the category of stalking, which falls under the category of harassment.

How to deal with it? I don’t really know. Maybe start taking people seriously when they state that they’re being harassed, and take the risk of “hurting someone’s feelings” by bringing the accusation to the accused’s attention and asking for an explanation.

Should the quality of debate in the Magick forum be any different to that seen in the rest of the board? How would people feel if their ideas were taken to task as rigourously as in the Headshop, for example? Is direct challenge the only way to improve the standard of debate?

No, it shouldn’t be any different and yes, the Magick could really use a dose of Headshop-oriented tactics in terms of discussion and debate. There’s too many assumptions and too much blind faith, misplaced trust and sheer laziness going on, because nobody wants to be questioned and “criticism is MEAN.” Those who whine about “ad hominem attacks” are leaving out a very crucial point: the attacks are most often made not by the criticizers, but those being criticized.

As for “cliques”…well, I won’t even go into that. It's a perpetually tedious subject. The patterns of interactions and "friendships" in this particular Forum are rather obvious, really, and they are what they are. Glass houses, stones, all that.

When someone is directly challenged, ze has to respond – it’s part of the process. If ze has put enough thought and care into hir idea or concept, ze will not only respond, but ze will appreciate that someone took the time and effort to tell hir the idea/concept sucks. This means that ze can assimilate feedback, go back to the drawing board, and make improvements. If someone isn’t prepared to fully explain hirself, lay bare and explore hir motivations, and handle criticism, then ze shouldn’t bother bringing hir ideas to the table, because it will just end in tears and ill will. Nobody learns from the experience, except that so-and-so is MEAN and such and-such is sensitive.

I suppose if the Magick Forum required an equal level of intellectual rigor as the Headshop or the Switchboard, we’d lose quite a few people. That might be a good thing.

The Magick Forum has historical conflicts that keep recurring. How can we deal with this and move on?

The emphasis, of course, should be on the words “deal with this”. The reason these conflicts keep occurring is because no-one is dealing with them. There are various reasons for this, I suppose: fear, lack of interest ("If it isn’t happening to ME then it’s not MY problem"), denial, helplessness in the face of a medium that allows people to completely avoid responsibility for their actions. Nevertheless, the issues will not go away until they are directly confronted. To an extent, I suppose, hence this thread.

Had the situations in question been dealt with swiftly and effectively at the time, things would be very different. But they weren’t. It is at best naïve and at worst deeply offensive to expect survivors of abuse, stalking or harassment via this Forum to “move on” where there has been no closure. There can be no closure until the perpetrators of the abuse are directly confronted and made to admit to this behavior. No Justice, No Peace, as Smith & Mighty would say.

At this point, for the particular situations we are (not) discussing, questions of “proof” are pretty irrelevant (although going forward proof must be expected and given as soon as accusations are made). Enough people behind the scenes are aware of the various situations; what is required is the intestinal fortitude to say, “Look. You did this, we know it, come clean and DON'T FUCKING DO THIS TO THE BOARD AGAIN.”

Discussions about “personal issues” or “ego” evade the issue completely. It is to the advantage of the abuser if, when someone complains about being harassed or attacked on this board, that poster is accused of “personal conflicts” or “ego battles”. That’s the board’s way of chickening out and not dealing with problems when they arise. This allows the abuse to perpetuate and deepen until the only way out is to leave the board. Then it’s “GOLLY GEE! WHATEVER HAPPENED TO SO-AND-SO???”

There isn’t a lot of ego gratification to facing reality and dealing with bitter painful truths. And there isn’t a great deal of personal glory in returning to the scene of the crime (by specific request), speaking out and getting utterly SHAT ON by people who a) can’t face these situations and b) are directly responsible for the situations. Try to remember that before you collectively get all smug with the “personality conflict” bullshit.

Can we institute a general code of conduct for workings on this forum? Is there a set of universal precepts that will ensure a high standard of methodology, reasoning, and accountability to what we do?

I genuinely don’t know if that’s possible. It sort of goes back to my response to the first set of questions: This medium is neither safe nor appropriate for communal magickal work because there is really no way to ascertain the honesty and ethics of the people who post here. You’ll definitely need to clean house before even considering codes of future conduct or universal precepts for going forward.