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Circumcision

 
  

Page: 12345(6)7

 
 
alejandrodelloco
23:50 / 12.05.05
*cough*
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:29 / 27.07.05
Perhaps this might be a good reason to think about snipping as an option?

New research suggests circumcision could be effective in preventing the spread of HIV among men...

The data... shows male circumcision prevented about seven of 10 infections.


As the article says, they've still to determine whether this finding is robust, but all other things being equal (which they aren't, but still...), it seems a pretty dramatic potential benefit.

If there is good reason to circumcise for medical reasons, then, is the way in which it is already done the best way to go about it? I'm not sure how humane the current procedure is, but I'd assume perhaps a circumcision founded on ingrained "ewwww, it's dirty!" cultural beliefs might be performed in a slightly different manner to a circumcision performed for strictly practical reasons...
 
 
sdv (non-human)
13:08 / 27.07.05
pingles

This is really unscientific nonsense - do the numbers and sigh...

Because this would imply that the level of HIV per American man or indeed woman would be less than in a country such as UK where circumcision is not the norm...

a barbaric practice cannot be justified by bad science !
 
 
Pingle!Pop
19:24 / 27.07.05
It may indeed by unscientific nonsense, yes; all I have to go on is what it says in the article, which doesn't state anything about methodology or suchlike. But while I've no vested interest in defending what you term a "barbaric practice" for the sake of it, I'd rather not dismiss what could be a major life-saving discovery with the assumption that the UK's and US' similar HIV rates (if this is in fact the case) couldn't have anything to do with geography, sexual practices, availability of healthcare etc...

So... do you have any evidence that this is, in fact, bad science? I'm perfectly ready to accept that this might be the case, but I think it's far from "common sense" that it is...
 
 
Lurid Archive
00:12 / 28.07.05
I'd rather not dismiss what could be a major life-saving discovery with the assumption that the UK's and US' similar HIV rates (if this is in fact the case) couldn't have anything to do with geography, sexual practices, availability of healthcare etc...

Not sure how you mean that "geography" could affect HIV rates, but by "sexual practices" and "availability of healthcare" you presumably mean that in the UK people are less likely to have unprotected penetrative sex than in the US and that the use of barrier contraception is more available? And that people in the UK have fewer sexual partners, perhaps?

Of course, if one is to believe that circumsion prevents seven in ten HIV infections, this effect would have to be huge. So huge, in fact, that I think it is hard to deny that sdv is correct. (Having said that, the numbers are actually quite hard to check rigorously.)
 
 
Pingle!Pop
06:40 / 28.07.05
By "geography" I was thinking of the historic spread of HIV. My knowledge is a bit patchy, but I'd be very surprised if its spread had nothing to do with geography. For example, according to here, India is ranked 47th in the world for number of HIV infections, but its unprotected sex rate is the lowest of all the countries surveryed here (note - Durex site, nothing alarming but perhaps NSFW if you'd not like it showing up on work computers). Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't being a little island tend to be quite good for preventing the spread of infections from outisde the country?

(The above-linked survey discounts differing unprotected sex rates as a possible reason rates aren't much higher in the UK, though; they seem to be about the same in the UK as in the US, slightly higher even).

On healthcare availability, I was thinking less of the prevalence of barrier contraception, and more other forms of healthcare; again, my knowledge is patchy, but here at least seems to suggest that certain drugs can prevent infection as well as the onset of AIDS.

Also, it should perhaps be remembered that preventing infection in 70% of cases isn't the same as a 70% reduction in infections. If someone has sex with the same HIV-carrying person several times, or has a high-risk promiscuous lifestyle sleeping with many people, it works out that they'd still not be much less likely to be infected than uncircumcised people.

There's also the possibility that the study might be correct, but that results are much more dramatic in countries such as South Africa where it was carried out than in western countries with better healthcare.

As said, I've no vested interest in proving the study right; it just seems that there are many reasons why the HIV rate might not be higher in the UK and the US, and that it takes a lot more than, "Well, the US doesn't have 70% less HIV-infected people than the US, so it can't be true," to prove it wrong.
 
 
babazuf
15:03 / 15.10.05
On the basis of the vast literature on the harmful effects of genital surgeries, one might have anticipated finding a wealth of studies that document considerable increases in mortality and morbidity. This review could find no incontrovertible evidence on mortality, and the rate of medical complications suggest that they are the exception rather than the rule.
- Carla M. Obermeyer, "Female Genital Surgeries" (1999)

It is difficult for me - considering the number of ceremonies I have observed, including my own - to accept what appears to be expressions of joy and ecstatic celebrations of womanhood in actuality disguise hidden experiences of coercion and subjugation. Indeed, I offer that the bulk of Kono women who uphold these rituals do so because they want to - they relish the supernatural powers of their ritual leaders over against men in society, and they embrace the legitimacy of female authority and particularly, the authority of their mothers and grandmothers.
- Fuambai Ahmadu, "Rites and Wrongs" (2000)

An important caveat, however, is that many members of the societies that practise traditional female genital surgeries do not view the result as mutilation. Among these groups, in fact, the resulting appearance is considered an improvement over female genitalia in their natural state. Indeed, to call a woman uncircumcised, or to call a man the son of an uncircumcised mother, is a terrible insult and noncircumcised adult female genitalia are often considered disgusting... In the rural Egyptian hamlet where we have conducted fieldwork some women were not familiar with groups that did not circumcise their girls. When they learned that the female researcher was not circumcised their response was disgust mixed with joking laughter. They wondered how she could have thus gotten married and questioned how her mother could have neglected such an important part of her preparation for womanhood.
- Sandra Lane and Robert Rubinstein, "Judging the Other: Responding to Traditional Female Genital Surgeries" (1996)

According to the Sudan Demographic and Health Survey of 1989-90 conducted in northern and central Sudan, of 3,805 women interviewed, 89 percent were circumcised. Of the women that were circumcised, 96 percent said they had or would circumcise their daughters. When asked whether they favoured continuation of the practise, 90 percent of circumcised woman said they favoured its continuation.
- Richard A. Shweder, "'What about Female Genital Mutilation?' And Why Understanding Culture Matters" (2003)

This is not to say that we should not worry about the documented 4 percent to 16 percent urinary infection rate associated with these surgeries, or the 7 percent to 13 percent of cases in which there is excessive bleeding, or the 1 percent rate of septicemia...
- ibid.

The lesson might be that a genital alteration makes it impossible to enjoy sex - but one suspects that this claim derives from our own ethno-anatomical folk beliefs rather than any hard science. Most First World intellectuals underestimate the true size and anatomy of the clitoris: about 50 percent of its tissue structure is internal and thus remains intact after any external modification of the genitals. Indeed, in spite of a lack of systematic investigations intho this topic, circumcised African women have talks about their sexual experiences in ways that strongly suggest that they can and do enjoy sex.
- ibid.

Aren't feminists funny?
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
22:53 / 15.10.05
What's your point, hiccup?

Some of those descriptions of women appreciating the practice remind me of descrptions of black slaves in the American south. Outside observers would would them dancing and singing, and assume they loved being slaves.

Cultural relativism isn't an absolute principle for anyone but ahthropologists.
 
 
babazuf
00:33 / 16.10.05
Read the second quote again. She is an anthropologist who has had her clitoris circumcised due to her religious and ethnic background. She is hardly unfamiliar with the practise, culture and emotions associated with the surgery.
 
 
*
17:11 / 16.10.05
Cultural relativism isn't an absolute principle for anyone but ahthropologists.

You know, it's funny you should mention, but we spent quite a long time on a complete tangent discussing clitoridectomy in my anthro class last year. Seems most anthropologists are of the opinion that forcible clitoridectomy is oppressive and inhumane, cultural relativism be damned. I would have suspicions about the motivations of an anthropologist who chose to undergo clitoridectomy, because I think it would be hard for it to mean the same thing to her as it does to people raised in a culture that practices it. Further, the idea that "it's just part of their culture" ignores the vast complexity of the very notion of culture— that clitoridectomy has in most cases not "always" been part of that culture, and that cultures never stop changing and growing, sometimes due to contact with others and sometimes due to pressures from within but usually both.
 
 
babazuf
21:05 / 16.10.05
I would have suspicions about the motivations of an anthropologist who chose to undergo clitoridectomy, because I think it would be hard for it to mean the same thing to her as it does to people raised in a culture that practices it.

As far as I am aware, Fuambai Ahmadu is Kono (a culture that appears quite a lot in the literature as regularly practicing female circumcision).
 
 
Ganesh
21:55 / 16.10.05
Well, if all other female Kono are in a position to make an informed decision as to whether or not to undergo circumcision, then her comments are likely to be of relevance.
 
 
babazuf
04:09 / 17.10.05
Fourth quote. From what I gather, the Kono live in Sudan.

Regardless, those figures are hardly at odds with the findings of anthropologists the world over, concerning women's opinions female circumcision within their own communities. Look, I realise that you fellows think it's a disgusting and immoral habit, but the people who it is being done to don't believe it is; if you're intent on being the liberal, high-minded people you would obviously like to be, then you may as well get over your circumcision schtick now.
 
 
*
06:02 / 17.10.05
As far as I am aware, Fuambai Ahmadu is Kono (a culture that appears quite a lot in the literature as regularly practicing female circumcision).

I am a fucking idiot. Please excuse me while I go hit myself with something heavy.

Now that's done and I feel capable of continuing with this discussion, and less likely to make the same mistake in the future.

As to the other thing, I have no issue with people being able to choose what they do with their own bodies. Gods forbid— I certainly don't want anyone telling me what I can do with mine. But in many individual cases it's more complicated than that, with people being coerced, either overtly or covertly. And in many cases these women's cases are not being heard. And it's the issue of choice I want to address, not the act itself— because I don't have the right to arbitrate the meaning of that act to another group of people.

Is a choice to make a certain alteration to one's body a free choice, in a society that (speaking generally) considers bodies without that alteration disgusting and unclean, when one's survival is likely to depend on being able to get married? I think that's more the issue that I am concerned about. And if it is not a free choice, then how can people within that society who may choose not to make that alteration go about giving themselves that room? There are a few options— they can attempt to escape the pressure, possibly by creating a marginal community or fleeing to another community, they can seek help from outside their community, or they can create change in their own societies. And while it's not right for powerful groups to impose change on a community from the outside, I think it is right for individuals and communities to respond to individuals and communities seeking outside help. If there are cases when surgical alterations are being imposed on people without their consent, then, I think withholding help from someone in that position in the name of some kind of moral or cultural purity is frankly disgusting. These are people, not a museum exhibit. And it's been demonstrated to my satisfaction that there are such cases— i.e. I have seen video interviews with women who claim that clitoridectomy was imposed on them, and I see no compelling reason to doubt their word.

So while I won't make any blanket statement about clidoridectomy being evil, I am willing to say that when it is done forcibly, I am against it. In cases where there might be covert coercion, it's much harder for me to say.
 
 
Ganesh
06:24 / 17.10.05
Fourth quote. From what I gather, the Kono live in Sudan.

I don't think that quote necessarily tells us whether Kono women in general make an informed decision to undergo clitoral circumcision. It tells us most of them approve of it and would do it to their daughtersl; it doesn't follow that, as children, their decision is an informed one. The situation seems not unlike that of male parents in the US, until relatively recently.
 
 
*
19:08 / 04.12.06
At a conference in Cairo, ten of the highest ranked Islamic scholars declared clitoridectomy against Islam.

A longer and more in-depth article.
 
 
eib
05:44 / 06.12.06
Male circumsicion is hardly barbaric. As someone who is circumsiced (for health reasons when I was a baby) I can say that it has not hindered my life in any way. Except to make it easy to be "cleaner".
I think everyone should have it done personally - it makes "it" look much more aesthetically pleasing. Most women I know say they prefer it.
Female circumsicion is something else altogether
 
 
Tsuga
11:07 / 06.12.06
I can say that it has not hindered my life in any way
Yeah, in any way that you know. I'm sure your penis has had a wonderful life, what with all the ladies doting over its cuteness and all, but you don't know what you may be missing. Frankly, I don't know either, being a skinhead and all; maybe I'm just used to my filthy cutless cutlass, and don't know the joys of a "cleaner" weenie.
Seriously, though, you might feel differently about thinking everyone should be cut if you did know everything. Maybe not. I don't know.
The studies regarding AIDS transmission are interesting, and certainly worth taking into account. If it can save lives, especially in high-risk areas, then it seems a good idea. Otherwise, it does seem a bit mutilatey (though I'm not trying to judge religious ceremony here).
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
12:21 / 06.12.06
I was reading this thread mostly to see whether David Reimer and mutilation of intersex children more generally would get a mention, and am reasonably gratified that they have, as an issue which is relatively little known but very close to my heart...

IIRC, there are conflicting sources on whether what was done to Reimer was a "botched circumcision", or in fact a deliberate full penectomy which was "explained" to his parents as such (the experiment was done by "Dr" John Money to "prove" that gender is never innate and is purely a product of social roles, a "fact" which the existence of transsexuals who are actually cured of their gender dysphoria by consensual medical gender reassignment pretty conclusively disproves IMO). What those who support Money's theories don't tell people about is his attempt to return to living as a man and eventual suicide.

IMO, the whole "degree of severity" argument to differentiate forms of unnecessary nonconsensual surgery from one another as to which is "mutilation" and which is "acceptable cultural practice" is a bit of a red herring. While i definitely wouldn't deny that what is done to an average male baby in an average "ordinary" circumcision is almost nothing compared to what gets done to many female children in many African and Arab cultures, or to most intersex children in the US and UK (usually at birth, without their parents being ever informed of it, and without it ever being written down in medical records), the difference is not of kind but of degree - it's still an invasive alteration of the body performed on a child too young to consent, and therefore by any libertarian standard unjustifiable, regardless of how much effect it has. Something doesn't (IMO) have to have devastating effects for it to be wrong (i think that it's even possible for an act which has more good than bad effects to be "wrong", but that's getting into the fundamental philosophy of ethics, which is almost certainly another thread... memories of Kant, Bentham and Mill from first year politics)...

To avoid accusations of Orientalism or pro-Western cultural bias, it's probably worth mentioning that several feminist theorists (apologies for not remembering precisely who) have pointed out that very many Western practices, including but not limited to cosmetic facial surgery, breast implants, many of the things done to disabled children with the aim of making them more "normal" rather than actually improve physical function, etc, can and should be assessed in exactly the same terms as female genital mutilation etc (either as done nonconsensually to children, in the case of the latter, or as chosen to be done by adults, in the case of the former examples).

The British adopted the custom in the ninteenth century when fighting Muslims in India and elsewhere. When the Muslims would catch an infidel, forced circumcision was one of the results.

The Muslims didn't perform the circumcisions very well, and the operations instead turned into unintentional penectomys. Then, with so many sexually non-functional British soldiers returning from war, it became accepted to circumcise them before they went to war.


Is this actually true? It looks very suspiciously like racist/orientalist colonial-era propaganda which has turned into commonly-believed-but-inaccurate "history" to me...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:41 / 06.12.06
Most women I know say they prefer it.

You're not asking the important questions, eib. What do men think about it? Go, do some research, we'll see you back here.

In fact, now that I think about it, you seem very confident about the easier to keep clean bit. How many uncircumcised men's naughties have you tried to keep clean? Over what length of time? Using what materials?
 
 
Quantum
13:13 / 06.12.06
I think everyone should have it done personally - it makes "it" look much more aesthetically pleasing.

I'll go and get the chop now then, I had no idea. Maybe I'll tattoo some attractive designs on my scrotum while I'm at it.
I must note that I've never had a problem keeping my nob clean though, I mean, it's not that much of a challenge even with a foreskin.
Personally I don't think anyone should have it done but there you go.
 
 
*
16:50 / 06.12.06
Natty, I think you've hit it right on the head, there, regarding the dubious history of circumcision in the UK.

I'm not sure about adults choosing to get breast implants being compared to girls being forced to have surgeries which threaten their lives and prevent them ever enjoying sex— but that's an issue I have with some of those feminist theorists, if they are not in fact straw women.
 
 
jentacular dreams
13:50 / 07.12.06
The British adopted the custom in the ninteenth century when fighting Muslims in India and elsewhere. When the Muslims would catch an infidel, forced circumcision was one of the results.

The Muslims didn't perform the circumcisions very well, and the operations instead turned into unintentional penectomys. Then, with so many sexually non-functional British soldiers returning from war, it became accepted to circumcise them before they went to war.


Is this actually true? It looks very suspiciously like racist/orientalist colonial-era propaganda which has turned into commonly-believed-but-inaccurate "history" to me...


Good call natty. Didn't perform them very well, despite it being a cultural norm? Admittedly, should the soldiers have been conscious at the time this may have caused complications but....

there is what appears to be a good article on male circumcision in islam here, but I have only had time to skim over it, so may be of poorer quality than I thought (also no references - boo).
 
 
Tsuga
01:47 / 14.12.06
In the NY Times:Circumcision appears to reduce a man’s risk of contracting AIDS from heterosexual sex by half, United States government health officials said yesterday, and the directors of the two largest funds for fighting the disease said they would consider paying for circumcisions in high-risk countries...
Uncircumcised men are thought to be more susceptible because the underside of the foreskin is rich in Langerhans cells, sentinel cells of the immune system, which attach easily to the human immunodeficiency virus, which causes AIDS. The foreskin also often suffers small tears during intercourse.

Unfortunately, it may be a good idea in some circumcstances. Those are pretty good results, halving the risk. I still don't think it should be standard procedure most of the time. Really, a greater push for education and condom use would be more effective at reducing transmission, wouldn't it?
 
 
stabbystabby
02:26 / 14.12.06
Really, a greater push for education and condom use would be more effective at reducing transmission, wouldn't it?

I dunno, seems more susceptible to the 'oops i forget' excuse. That said, today's Broadsheet makes a good point about circumcision being treated as a preventative, when it is clearly not. a combination of the two would be the best bet.

personal note: circumcised as a kid - family tendency towards phimosis. Think equating male circumcision with female genital mutilation is complete horseshit, and completely at odds with the lived experience of circumcised men.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
23:13 / 14.12.06
Really, a greater push for education and condom use would be more effective at reducing transmission, wouldn't it?

Or indeed promotion of non-penetrative forms of sex...
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
07:13 / 15.12.06
Actually, I know it is slightly more 'lab' territory, but can anyone comment on the relative worth/validity of this research. I've looked around and been unable to find much on the methodology of this experiement and, given how positive the findings are claiming to be, I'd quite like to know. These strike me as difficult things to measure - and it seems hard to isolate circumcision from other factors that might effect an individual's likelihood of contracting aids.

I promise I'm not being lazy - I have looked around and found very little of depth on the study. Perhaps my web-fu is weak.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
07:24 / 15.12.06
Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to add that the research seems to have been on men who voluntarily underwent circumcision. Surely, in addition to the healing period, this would have a significant impact on the individual's sexual activity. I have no idea what it might feel like, myself being sans penis, but I imagine it is quite a significant reminder of what you have had done and why every time you go to have sex for quite a while. What period was this test done over?

I also feel a bit concerned about this phrase that seems to crop up in reports about the tests that says the researchers felt it was 'unethical' to continue given the positive nature of the results. Hmmmm.

I'm not being anti-science about this - I probably just need some more information.
 
 
stabbystabby
12:49 / 15.12.06
my guess is that they thought it was unethical to let the uncircumcised men go on shagging... but that's just a guess.
 
 
Ticker
14:59 / 15.12.06
Think equating male circumcision with female genital mutilation is complete horseshit, and completely at odds with the lived experience of circumcised men.

Well on a person to person basis it's all subjective. There are accounts of women in cultures that practice female circumcision who feel very strongly that it is the appropriate configuration for their genitals and are quite happy about it. If I remember correctly there is a link upthread to an article regarding women's experiences on the matter.

So if you have one man who is happy with it and one woman who is happy with it or a larger group those experiences don't automatically provide the absolute experience. I know many men who have an extremely different view of the altering of their infant bodies. For them the choice was made without their approval and has left traumatic emotional, psychological, and physical damage.

My personal feeling is that the ideal for any altering of the body should be based on an adult owner of that body's decision. As for the issue of physical discomfort when the procedure is performed on an adult versus an infant again I believe an adult is more capable of understanding the reason behind the pain than an infant. for those who say they do not recall the experience I'd refer them to the many who say it has made an impact. It's not a gamble I would take on behalf of another being when they most certainly can decide for themselves.

In the article on AIDS and circumcision in the NY TImes I read yesterday they gave the stat of 70% of American men are currently circumcised. No source was given for the figure however.
 
 
grant
15:56 / 18.12.06
The latest Nature is repeating the claim that circumcision prevents HIV transmission.

he evidence is now overwhelming: circumcision can have a huge effect on the spread of HIV, cutting risks of infection in African men by about half. Now it's up to the World Health Organisation to decide whether they should advise certain countries to offer circumcision on a massive scale.

...

Three trials of circumcision have now been cut short as in each case it became clear how much protection the operation provides against HIV. First, in 2005, a trial in South Africa was halted early when it was found that circumcision cut the risk of infection by 60%. And this Wednesday, large clinical trials in Uganda and Kenya were also stopped when researchers found that the circumcised men were so well shielded from HIV (with cuts in risk of 53% and 48% respectively) that it became unethical not to offer the practice to the other, uncircumcised group.

If we had a vaccine this good against HIV, people would be falling over themselves to use it.

The idea is all the more credible because biologists think they understand why circumcision works. Cells which are particularly susceptible to HIV cluster under the foreskin. No foreskin, no easy entryway to the body. According to one estimate, male circumcision could avert two million new infections and 300,000 deaths over the next ten years in sub-Saharan Africa. There are hints that the practice may help save women from infection too.


So. Hmm.
 
 
Ticker
16:28 / 18.12.06
There are hints that the practice may help save women from infection too.

which practice? Male circumcision saving female partners?
 
 
stabbystabby
23:55 / 18.12.06
which practice? Male circumcision saving female partners? yes, this really need clarification.
 
 
Queer Pirate
00:16 / 20.12.06
I've been thinking about this study for the past few days. I've always been staunchly opposed to circumcision of infants without very good medical reason, as I believe it violates the child's right to physical integrity. If I had a 3-year-old daughter, I would not get her ears pierced for the same reason. Body modification is a decision a person should make for herself when she feels old enough to do it.

However, if circumcision could significantly reduce IN THE LONG TERM the chances of HIV infection for men who penetrate, I would seriously consider getting one (I'm uncut and proud of it, BTW).

Yet, I am concerned about the fact that the studies were interrupted for "ethical reasons". Considering that being infected once with HIV means being infected for life, I believe that a long-term study of the impact of circumcision might reveal that it delays infection, but that over the course of many years, it has little impact in preventing infection in people who use safer-sex methods inconsistently. Given the potential negative impact of erroneously presenting circumcision as an effective prevention method, I can't help but think that interrupting the research was a risky decision. The benefits of circumcision in regards with preventing HIV may nonetheless be significant even in the very long term, but this needs to be studied further before making bold claims that circumcision will save Africa and justifying rerouting money away from promoting safer-sex practices to promote circumcision instead.

* * *

Regarding female genital mutilation, it's a given that in a community where clitoridectomy is a strictly enforced norm and an important tradition, women who would not undergo the "rite" risk severe ostracism. Under those circumstances, even verbal opposition to the practice could stir trouble. Speaking of informed consent in regard to the practice in this context is very out of place.

* * *

Circumcising children more or less removes the need to manipulate their genitals to clean them. Is it possible that circumcision became widespread as a way of preventing little boys from finding out that rubbing their glans feels really nice? Masturbation was considered a serious mental illness for a long time.
 
 
Elettaria
15:57 / 02.01.07
I think there are two separate issues here: why the practice of circumcision began, and why it is still continued. They're not the same, and they're completely different for male circumcision and FGM. A fairly simple theory I've heard as to why male circumcision began in Judaism and Islam is that it was of practical value to nomadic desert tribes in avoiding physical discomfort. I understand that sand in the foreskin is really, really unpleasant. This would also account for soldiers posted in desert countries opting for circumcision. Once the practice has got into a culture and become the norm, it's hard to backtrack. If you admit that it's wrong and/or unnecessary, you're admitting that the majority of people of whichever gender we're talking about, the ones who've been circumcised, have genitals that are undesirable (which I don't mean in the sexual sense, although that's one element of this). Who wants to get up and say, "We don't like the state of most American penises?"

It's also about a sense of belonging to a community, and I know as a Jew that this sense is a very strong one. The highest risk attached to male circumcision, after all, was for males in Europe between 1939 and 1945. All someone had to do to see whether you were due to be killed was to pull your pants down. People can get very emotional about issues that people in their community have died for, it strengthens the sense of identity.

Anyway, once something is customary all sorts of ideas will spring up to justify it with hindsight, much as there are various theories as to the reasoning behind kashrut but no hard proof. (Personally I like the anthropologists' idea that it's about maintaining cultural differences, that concepts of holiness are linked to concepts of separation.) Something could start because of sexual ideology and later be ascribed to hygiene, for example.

One of the hygiene myths that I've heard is that male circumcision lowers the risk of cervical cancer because it lowers the transmission of HPV, because there's a lower rate of cervical cancer amongst Jews. Actually, what was happening was that HPV simply happened to be lower amongst Jews. Relatively closed communities generally have different levels of prevalence of various conditions, some will be higher while some are lower. When the communities become less closed and the proportion of mixed relationships rises, as has happened with Jews, the prevalence of medical conditions gets closer to the norm of the larger society they are assimilating into, and this is what has been happening with HPV and cervical cancer.

I've always been bewildered by arguments as to whether circumcised or uncircumcised penises "look prettier" and I suspect that it's a transference of other values. For instance, my great-grandmother apparently told my mother that sleeping with an uncircumcised man was like sleeping with a pig, presumably as a means of putting her off having non-Jewish boyfriends. We'll assume she hadn't actually tried sleeping with pigs, and refrain from pointing out that it's a horrible, prejudiced thing to say since that's obvious. I'd put that down to fear of assimilation and loss of Jewishness (bear in mind that my great-grandmother was alive during WW2) as well as sexual prudery (bear in mind that my great-grandmother was born in, er, I'd estimate 1900 or earlier, and was famed for her prudishness amongst her descendents). I find it significant that she chose the pig, the archetypal non-kosher animal and thus a symbol of ultimate bestiality in this context. A marker of physical difference at the genital level is a profound one, and I've a feeling that anti-Semites in Europe used to focus on this quite a lot, with much disgust. I don't know if it's ever been mentioned as part of Islamophobia, but since what I know of that is mostly the modern phenomenon of Islamophobia in the US, where male circumcision is the norm anyway, it's hardly going to crop up as an issue of difference in that context. From dim memories of reading articles about the circumcision bit in Othello, I think the case would have been the same as with Judaism in, for example, early modern Europe.

Personally, if I ever have a son I would refuse to have him circumcised, just as I'd tell the doctors to leave the hell alone were I to have an intersex child, rather than the current norm of "fixing" the baby's genitalia to be one gender or the other. I imagine I'd have to argue a bit with my parents, and that the arguments would be as insane as they were when I chose to start wearing a kippa [skullcap] and tallit [prayer shawl] for synagogue (at one point I had to say, "How can wearing a small round object on my head be penis envy?"). My parents would cope, and my community (Liberal Jewish) would respect my decision. If I want Jewish kids, I'd do it by giving them a Jewish upbringing, not by lopping bits off them. Judaism for me is principally a matter of belief and practice, not a matter of bloodlines or penis configuration.

I'm torn about the HIV issue, because there actually may be a good reason there. I tend to get stuck in disbelief at the point where the proposed solution to the problem of HIV being spread by widespread refusal to use condoms, rape and complications arising from FGM, is to mutilate male genitalia.
 
  

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