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Circumcision

 
  

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The Planet of Sound
13:25 / 18.02.02
Why is it that Western society sees male circumcision as an acceptable practice, when female circumcision/clitorodectomy is seen as barbaric? Is it still true that most males born in American hospitals are circumcised as a matter of course? Is it because this infant psychological-gelding process is necessary in creating as many worker-slaves as possible? Is it because fathers who have been mutilated themselves as children prefer to see the tips of their own sons’ genitals being sliced off rather than face the reality of their own condition? Is it because some women prefer men that are desensitized to sexual sensation, and more likely to ‘last’ (plus, ‘all men should be like daddy’.). Is it because an uncircumcised penis is more prone to disease, in much the same way that spaniels’ tails can no doubt be proved to be superfluous and that foxes enjoy a good hunt? Why doesn’t this get discussed much?
 
 
Bill Posters
13:56 / 18.02.02
I tread in fear of making an anti-Semitic or anti-Islamic statement here; however, here's my ten cents worth; these observations are not meant to be consistent, and nor are they.

1. It is interesting that female circ. is seen as barbaric by many when male circ. generally isn't. That said, the female process is indisputably worse and hence is often referred to as female genital mutilation (FGM) because the two are simply not very comparable; for eg, FGM is much more likely to be fatal than male circ., and there are absolutely no medical benefits. (There are closer practices: subincision, the slitting of the penis, would be more comparable in terms of danger, pain and blatant unnecessariness.)

2. It's a fact of cultures generally that less concern is displayed for males. Check the gender and suicide thread for a good example. I think a meme, conscious or otherwise, of 'oh they can handle it, they're boys/men' must be at work here, though is by no means the whole story.

3. Male circumcision has been shown to have medical benefits for men and women (i.e. less cancers, and lower HIV-spread). On that evidence, then there's surely a good case for it, at least if medically carried out rather than done without anaesthetic with a rusy sardine tin in a shed.

4. There are moves to outlaw male circumcision. I don't have time to Google it, but they won't be hard to find.

5. Dunno about the Freudian/Lacanian subtext, the symbolic castration thing. Maybe...

6. I'm str8, but in my limted experience of such matters, I'd rather blow a cut dick.

7. Seeing a Turkish boy immediately post-circ. screaming like fuck at what must have, subjectively, been a sick and shocking assault struck me as one of the most inhumane things I've ever witnessed. (No offense to Turkey or Turks intended; I'm not saying the West isn't full of inhumanities , 'kay?!)

8. Did you hear the one about the Jewish surgeon?

<ducks and runs>

 
 
odd jest on horn
14:04 / 18.02.02
quote: Why is it that Western society sees male circumcision as an acceptable practice, when female circumcision/clitorodectomy is seen as barbaric?
clitorodectomy removes the part of the woman that in most females has the greatest amount of sexual sensitivity. the point is usually to let the woman be incapable of enjoying sex. other aspects of female circumcision are the removal of the outer labia and subsequent sewing together of the inner ones. again to minimize enjoyment of sex. (actually to change it into pure agony).

on the other hand it has not been proven (and has been contested) that the removal of foreskin results in less sensitivity in the sense that you suggest.

i would suggest the "Desert flower" for a first hand account of female circumcision.
you should easily be able to find someone who can discuss the male variety and what effects it has had on their lives. to compare the two seems to me rather a pointless exercise.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:09 / 18.02.02
Or, possibly, just that compared to female circumcision male circumcision is pretty fucking minor...
 
 
Bill Posters
14:29 / 18.02.02
Er, apart from the pretty fucking minor fact that is can result in fatality, castration partial or total and alleged psychological damage? Sorry, but I beg to differ there, on the grounds that I know doctors who've had to do what little they could to clear up the mess it can make.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:30 / 18.02.02
There was actually some research recently suggesting that removal of the foreskin decreased the chances of catching some STDs (including HIV) as the foreskin is an ideal virus trap, apparently.

I think the ritual is sometimes rather grim. That's not quite the same as the practice itself. Unlike female circumcision, about which, as I understand it, nothing positive, and much that is negative can be said.
 
 
Bill Posters
14:36 / 18.02.02
Hmm, Nick I noticed in a UK black newspaper (can't recall wch one) though that the feeling in some African countries is that the allegedly neo-colonialist WHO can get lost and leave people to it. Women still opt for it, and claim they have every right to.

Me, I against, but I'd be wary of putting a metaphorical pith helmet on and going to Africa and trying to mess with a cultural tradition.

Also worth noting that in The Beauty Myth Naomi Wolff (?) argues that breast implants are no less barbaric. We're all savages, apparently...
 
 
Sauron
14:37 / 18.02.02
I'm more shocked that this thread has even sprung up at all. Male circumcision is administered for hygienic reasons. Female circumcision is administered so that women do not feel pleasure during sex and thus will not be unfaithful to their husbands (?!?!?!!).

How the fuck can you compare the two?
 
 
Sleeperservice
15:07 / 18.02.02
He didn't compare the two. PoS asked why one was 'allowed' and the other not. Fair question in my book. And most of his post was actually about male circumcision. Which has puzzled me as a subject. You think nature made a mistake?
 
 
Sauron
15:27 / 18.02.02
PoS asked why one was 'allowed' and the other not.

I'll say it again, one is infused in religious law because it is more hygenic. The other mutilates the body so that pleasure cannot be obtained.

For me this covers the allowed/ not allowed argument fairly well.

Re: nature. It's a good question. I don't think nature got it wrong, I just think man got it better.
 
 
Ganesh
15:29 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
There was actually some research recently suggesting that removal of the foreskin decreased the chances of catching some STDs (including HIV) as the foreskin is an ideal virus trap, apparently.


What little consistent research has been produced has shown only tiny differences in rates of infection, if differences exist at all - certainly nothing to justify the routine mutilation of male children. We teach our kids to wash behind their ears; we don't amputate 'em...
 
 
Ganesh
15:31 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Sauron:
I'll say it again, one is infused in religious law because it is more hygenic.


Very very little evidence that it's more hygienic. Not a given at all...
 
 
Sauron
15:36 / 18.02.02
OK, Ganesh, without meaning to get technical/ gross here (and I know you are far more qualified in this area than I am (medicine, rather than being technical/ gross)), if you do not wash under your foreskin this can lead to a smegma build up which can in turn cause infection. It has also been mooted that this can cause infection in your partner and could be a catalyst to cervical cancer. OK a simple wash will ensure this does not happen, but surely circumcision helps alleviate this risk. Typo corrected for Dr Ganesh.
 
 
Ganesh
15:39 / 18.02.02
Yes, but it's a) a teeny-tiny risk (more theoretical than observed, really) and b) easily alleviated by washing. So teach your kids to wash!

I'll hunt out the statistics if I can be bothered but, basically, the "increased risk of STDs" is pretty damn notional - and, as I say, doesn't really (<sigh> okay, IMHO) justify mutilating little boys' willies.

Possessing breast tissue carries a much higher cancer risk - by your logic, we'd be removing womens' breasts at birth. Y'know, just to be on the safe side...

(And I presume you mean "smegma".)

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Bill Posters
15:45 / 18.02.02
And anyway functionalist analyses of religious laws are totally discredited.
1. There's no way ancient Israelites could have done an epidemiological study of any sort.
2. If all religions were about health all religions would recommend a mainly vegetarian diet, regular exercise and a good night's sleep, as opposed to fasting, warmongering, drug-use and abstenance from medical treatment as they sometimes do.
3. For example, I fail to comprehend how it could be argued that Al Quaida flew planes at the WTC for reasons of hygiene, genital or otherwise.

Er, 'Nesh, you're the doctor here but I was under the impression that women don't get born with breasts; don't they turn up later?
 
 
Sleeperservice
15:47 / 18.02.02
"get the chop & you won't have to wash as much" sorry but that's the way it comes across.

I've always found this 'ritual' really strange (regardless of sex). I find the "it's cleaner" excuse just that. An excuse.

I agree with nearly all that Bill Posters said (in his first post) but in my experience, once it's 'up' cut or not makes little difference to a BJ
 
 
Sauron
15:47 / 18.02.02
I'm not circumcised myself, but the reason I'm arguing so vehemently here is that male circumcision does not have detremental damage on the rest of your lefe. Female circumcision will make sex far far less enjoyable for the rest of your life.

And there is an argument that male circumcision weakens the sensitivity of the bell- end (apologies do not know technical term, but would be interested- ganesh?), but this can be nothing to having your clit mutilated.
 
 
bitchiekittie
15:53 / 18.02.02
good point, ganesh

and I understand what you are saying, sauron - theres very little comparison between the two, one is a simply barbaric and violent (not to mention often performed in totally unhygienic circumstances) assault and the other a more regulated happening.

I do not mean to suggest that Im for male circumcision, or that its in no way traumatic or dangerous. I think its a very likely unnecessary procedure and that more organization needs to go into coming up with a definitive "yes/no, this is something that should/should not happen to our little boys
 
 
Bill Posters
15:54 / 18.02.02
I think bell-end might be glans. Not sure though.

Sleeper, I was under the impression that cut peni are less smeggy. I am however guilty of generalising from a very small data sample. (The number of BJ's I have administered is small I mean, not the peeners in question. They seemed fine to me in that regard. )

And someone correct me, but it has been argued that the clit is huge, that the bit that's cut away is but the tip of the iceberg and so pleasure is not necessarily prevented.
 
 
Sauron
15:57 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Bill Posters:


And someone correct me, but it has been argued that the clit is huge, that the bit that's cut away is but the tip of the iceberg and so pleasure is not necessarily prevented.


Irrelevant. The penis is a big gland too, but would you want to lop the top of yours off?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:59 / 18.02.02
Like most other men born in the US, I am circumcized, and I don't feel particularly bad about it. I don't have any complaints about feelings of sexual pleasure, nor do I care enough about the possibility that I could've had more were I not circumcized that I feel particularly cheated. I think that you would have to have been on both sides to make a proper judgement of which is better, and that would mean the person would have had to have had the circumcision at an older age, and I think that might color a person's judgement some, right?

If I had a son, I'd want him to be circumcized - mostly for the hygiene issues, but also for the fact that so many men are circumcized that it's common for some people to get a little freaked out by uncut penises...

I'm going to agree that circumcision for men really has very little in common with female genital mutilation... and hence the rationalization of one, and not the other.

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
16:01 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Bill Posters:
And someone correct me, but it has been argued that the clit is huge, that the bit that's cut away is but the tip of the iceberg and so pleasure is not necessarily prevented.


It's probably worth advising you that the amount removed is usually determined by the culture that is doing it. In some instances pretty much everything is removed. that include the clit, the hood, the lips, everything.
 
 
invisible_al
16:12 / 18.02.02
Saw a Channel 4 documentary on this a while back, Unecessary Genital Surgery was the term they used.
I'm sorry the argument 'but it prevents infection' is a bit dodgy on the grounds that so does not doing unecessary surgery to a infants body.
Also its not just doctors performing circumcision, its rabbi's. Now qualified they may but in many things but they ain't doctors. And they also are not using anestetic.
It isn't necessary to do this to kids, as Ganesh says washing behind there does the same job, so why bother.
 
 
Ganesh
16:13 / 18.02.02
Bill: yeah, the vast majority of breast tissue shows up later - but then, it was a deliberately absurd example. Sexually-transmitted diseases, if we're using this as our justification, aren't generally much of a childhood issue, either - so why circumcise so young?

Yeah, it's the 'glans penis'.

The only definitive 'medical' indications for circumcision are phimosis (painfully tight foreskin that can't be retracted) or paraphimosis (retracted foreskin that can't be brought forward again, and is cutting off circulation to the glans.

"Hygiene issues", as is my point, are largely in the mind, and fairly readily addressed. For whatever reason it originally started, I think it's carried out in the States merely because it's become cultural habit - with little or no justification other than religious or, IMHO, almost entirely baseless fear of germs/disease.

You might have gathered I'm not a fan of the procedure...

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
The Planet of Sound
16:51 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
... that would mean the person would have had to have had the circumcision at an older age, and I think that might color a person's judgement some, right?

If I had a son, I'd want him to be circumcized - mostly for the hygiene issues, but also for the fact that so many men are circumcized that it's common for some people to get a little freaked out by uncut penises...

I'm going to agree that circumcision for men really has very little in common with female genital mutilation... and hence the rationalization of one, and not the other.

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]


To quote myself: "Is it because fathers who have been mutilated themselves as children prefer to see the tips of their own sons’ genitals being sliced off rather than face the reality of their own condition?"

...and here we see the living proof. Flux, if you lived in a society where, to take Ganesh's example, it was customary to have children's ears lopped off at an early age, they would no doubt find ears (your ears, for example) a 'freakish' and harrowing sight. That doesn't justify the operation. On this thread we have a qualified medical practicioner stating that there are no real 'hygiene issues'. Does that change your opinion at all? Would you give any thought to the idea that your own conformity on this issue, and possibly on many others, might be a product of your infant experiences? Have you ever previously thought about the issue, or done any research; would you simply have allowed this operation to take place on your (hypothetical) son, without this?

I would argue that male circumcision has a great deal in common with female circumcision, although obviously clitorodectomy etc is far worse in its level of physical damage. (Also: in some societies vaginal sewing takes place, as a guarantee of virginity; the vagina is literally sewn together until a bride is 'burst open' on her wedding night.)

Re; sexual feelings. I'm sure circumcised men are probably far better lovers due to the fact that their sensations are numbed. This probably isn't a bad thing. But leaving sex aside for a second, what about psychological implications? If Dr Freud is right about our early experiences shaping our characters for the rest of our lives, what effect must having an intimate and sensitive part of your anatomy hacked at have on you? Whether it's at a few days old, or at the age of seven, eight, nine?
 
 
Not Here Still
16:56 / 18.02.02
I don't agree with human A deciding to do something to human B for reaons of belief without that person's consent, except in very rare instances.

This is not one of them.

This is body mutilation for reasons of belief, whichever way you look at it. And it is often carried out on those who have no say in the matter.

Not really on, if you ask me...
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:57 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The Planet of Sound:
Re; sexual feelings. I'm sure circumcised men are probably far better lovers due to the fact that their sensations are numbed. This probably isn't a bad thing.


risking sounding awful, Ill have to say, from the female POV, I havent noticed any significant differences, in either my personal sensations or longevity
 
 
Ganesh
16:58 / 18.02.02
<thinks>

Oh yeah, and recurrent balanitis - that's another legitimate medical indication.
 
 
Ganesh
17:37 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The Planet of Sound:
On this thread we have a qualified medical practicioner stating that there are no real 'hygiene issues'.


Don't take it from me: there's an interesting rundown on different countries' viewpoints here and a more general database here.

I'd always vaguely assumed the US's idiosyncratic attitude on male circumcision reflected that country's generally lower tolerance of germs, 'ickiness' and anything which might be considered a bodily imperfection...

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:49 / 18.02.02
I think, ganesh, that its rather more a case of not challenging the "norm"
 
 
Ganesh
17:51 / 18.02.02
Why's it the norm?
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:53 / 18.02.02
...also I dont think the question isnt broached by the obstetrician - possibly leading the mother/parents to believe that its the natural, normal and healthy thing to do. people put a lot of faith in their doctors, to the point where they allow them to make all the decisions for them
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:55 / 18.02.02
Ive never come across an american man(born here, that is) who isnt circumcised
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:13 / 18.02.02
Whilst I'm aware of the arguments against male circumcision and would wholeheartedly agree with most of them, I really feel that comparing male circumcision to female "circumcision" is totally inappropriate. The operations are just not analogous.

Look here, here, here or here if you want to know what female "circumcision" really means, but you'd better have a strong stomach.

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:19 / 18.02.02
Oh, and WRT bitchiekittie's comments, 'Nesh, I believe that all male babies born in America are circumcised as a matter of course (Someone correct me if I'm wrong).
 
  

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