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Love

 
  

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Captain Zoom
20:32 / 12.02.02
I love tomato plants.
Not tomatoes, mind you, but the plants have this excellent smell and I remember my Aunt's greenhouse from when I was very little and they had all these tomato plants.

(D'oh. I promised myself I wouldn't thread rot here. Bad Zoom.)

Zoom.
 
 
The Monkey
20:55 / 12.02.02
Back in the days when I was more of a high-school cynic-wannabee, I would say things like, "Love is a chemical reaction" and feel that somehow dismissed the entire "l-word" issue.
Now older and more of a curmudgeon than a cynic, I still think it doesn't matter...love, hell, even the delusion of love, is vast, incredible and terrible.

I think of the infinite varieties of love like microrganisms...depending upon the context in which they are cultivated and they fashion in which they link with everything else, can vary the entire range from beneficial to fatal.
Then again, I spent at least some of my formative years in a culture that uses the same word to describe cholera and romantic love...musthana...because they have the same symptoms. Great word. Heh.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
09:05 / 13.02.02
I had a friend who used to have regular sex with melons, but maybe that's getting too oblique... his boyfriend was in prison at the time.

even as a tomato plant, you would only be safe from Eros for a limited period, w1rebaby.

it occurs to me that I was just arguing that love is beyond reason and it brought to mind
Goya's The Sleep of Reason produces Monsters.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:05 / 13.02.02
Personally, I like not being able to define love. I mean, ugh. It's so sticky and gluey and weird.

I personally think monogamy has bugger all (pun intended) to do with love. At least, emotional monogamy (which is not the same as sexual monogamy, even though I'm not a fan of either, really.) I'm in love with at least three really close friends aside from Crunchy and would never want it otherwise. And that's aside from extra sex, which is not particularly frequent but nonetheless reeks of some kind of 'love', otherwise I wouldn't bother doing it.
 
 
alas
09:05 / 13.02.02
It seems like people are playing, from my admittedly not altogether well-informed p.o.v., somewhat fast and loose with ideas loosely derived from evolutionary psychology, yeah? Which personally I believe to be a problematic approach to all things human, but I'm not claiming any kind of expertise on this. A quick websearch found me this fairly recent, more complex picture of the evolutionary psych take on love, polygyny, serial monogamy, infidelity, developed in Robert Wright's, The Moral Animal: Evolutionary Psychology and Everyday Life (Pantheon 1994); Time Magazine did a cover story on it. BUT WAIT! Don't touch that link--just yet...

Despite my generous provision of a link to that brand of thinking, I encountered one persuasive feminist critique of this kind of analysis (a lecture, last year) that demonstrated that by focusing on chimps & apes (very hierarchical societies, violent, even instances of gang rape, etc), rather than, say bonobos, evolutionary psych reaffirms/ reifies conservative stereotypes of male and female sexual behavior, and heterosexist views of sexual behavior, pair bonding practices. Give me a little time and I'll find a source on this ... but, arggh, since my internet connection's suddenly gone very slow and may give out on me, here's what I recall:

The research suggested, I believe, that we are apparently equally related to Bonobos as to chimps. Bonobos' behavior however is more like a kind of communal hippie primate orgy--they have sex, a lot, for lots of reasons, with lots of partners. The theory is that in their social units sex--rather than being strictly a reproductive practice--is more of a social glue, or social lubricant? (depending on the sex, I guess, and whether the species has developed KY jelly...<=lame attempt at joke). In other words: our desire for sex and mating may not be strictly or even primarily designed for reproduction. The researcher I heard discuss this argued that it was the ghost of our culture's patriarchal and religious traditions that keeps that reproduction/sex connection so firmly in place, even for scientists, and even when---obviously!--- most of us, even most Roman Catholics living in the US, today, do not PRIMARILY have sex SIMPLY to have babies. (Rinse, repeat that last sentence.) Surely, that's also true of most 'lithers????

This researcher argued that it's at least equally plausible, and clearly more useful, and definitely more progressive, to view sex primarily as a way that human beings, who evolved to be group animals: to survive, we must create bonds with other members of our tribe. And it's important, also, for us to, communally, "recreate" ourselves. (I think the talk also challenged the idea that men really feasibly can have so many more babies than women, smtg to do with sperm counts going down with excessive orgasm ... which was quite fascinating, but I can't remember the specifics of that part of the argument.)

Even so, however, both the fairly conservative evol. psych. link I provided above and the feminist research I heard agree that it's clear we have evolved to be unfaithful as much as we've evolved to be pairbonders.

But lets get back onto other, more cultural grounds, shall we? yes, Love is a many splendored thing and a multifaceted way to get hurt. I'm not going to dispute either idea. But--maybe I'm old and cynical--I'm not sure I buy the utter "uniqueness" of each love experience argument completely. I also believe that falling in love often plays out/plays on a lot of old stories, patterns, that have shaped my life.

Not to slavishly reinscribe Freud's family romance (promise!), but most of the time I have fallen in love, and when I've had time to look back on the love relationship, it's typically true that some area of my own evolving self's personal love genealogy has fused with another person in a way that connects, deeply to old relationships, old losses, old fears, old desires....

Tell me any of you who haven't been afraid to look too closely at the way your lovers resemble, say, mum & dad?

Yipes!
alas
 
 
Dr Doom
09:05 / 13.02.02
I think a part of what confuses me, or seems to be revolving around is the difference between love as a basic emotion that we as humans are born with and romantic love. Both we seek. As a newborn we cry until we are comforted, nurtured and loved. Studies have proven without a doubt of all the many things that go wrong when not given these things. Is romantic love a continuation of that or an evoloution?
 
 
lentil
09:05 / 13.02.02
quote: Originally posted by Captain Zoom:

Does it override rationality? Can a person control love, or the emotion formerly known as love?


quote: Originally posted by ZoCher:

if reason had that power over it, then I wouldn't call it love in the first place.


Definite agreement with that. if you could will yourself out of love, breaking up, or having love for someone that isn't reciprocated wouldn't be a problem. what about... can you will yourself into love, or at the very least be more open to the possibility? i got together with my gf after a fairly long period of miserable pining after a girl who I'd had a failed fling with (sure would have chosen to stop loving her if i could) - during the period that i met her i had sorted my self - esteem out enough to start thinking that i could have been an attractive prospect again. I was definitely 'on the pull', or 'looking for love', and when i found it, it had the effect of blasting away those last little bits of hurt, there was something redemptive about it. obviously it couldn't be planned, i had no idea i was going to meet her in the pub that i did on the night that i did, or that she'd be willing to meet me again, whatever, but i was making a concerted effort to find a "proper" girlfriend for a "relationship" at that time. nah... if i hadn't met her that night i just would have had to wait, if i had forced myself to fall in love it'd have been over long ago.

quote:Originally posted by [monkeys violating the temple]:
I still think it doesn't matter...love, hell, even the delusion of love, is vast, incredible and terrible.


Yeah, i think I was sounding too clinical ,but that's something i was getting at; love, whatever it is, exists, and even if most of what we attach to it is superfluous, and even if it's the same chemical reaction felt by all life, It's still wonderful, fantastic, all those things... just the thought of it is making me happy right now

quote:Originally posted by alas:
It seems like people are playing ... somewhat fast and loose with ideas loosely derived from evolutionary psychology, yeah?


ya got me there. excellent post. can't believe i forgot about bonobos, particularly as they were a pet subject of my anthropolgist flatmate during her degree, and i read every issue of "The Minx" by peter milligan. i think this is the first head shop thread i've posted in, i was looking for some ed-u-ca-shun.... nice one.

<edited - just tidying up the layout>

[ 13-02-2002: Message edited by: MaChine Lentil ]
 
 
ciarconn
12:07 / 13.02.02
Gee, I feel lazy one day and an excelent thread grows too much.

First, a try to define (true) love:
It is a feeling in which a person recognizes the Other as a person, and opens Him/Her-self fully to the Other.

It is to be distinguished from infatuation (desiring the Other to be One's ideal figure) and Sartrian love (I love because I want to be loved, love as thing-ification of the Other).

There is no way one can speak of anything without one's experience' influence. Both intellectual an existencial experience.

The problem of monogamy. I believe we usually funtion as monogamous, because we are educated for monogamy. Seeing my own experience, I believe there was a time in which I loved two women at the same time, and that's talking of love strictly as a couple/relationship concept. In the christian concept of social/fraternal love, there's no exclusivity.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:15 / 13.02.02
quote:Originally posted by ciarconn:
Gee, I feel lazy one day and an excelent thread grows too much.

First, a try to define (true) love:
It is a feeling in which a person recognizes the Other as a person, and opens Him/Her-self fully to the Other.


Oh, that's just Kantianism, followed by mysticism: how does one open oneself? With legs in stirrups?
 
 
Captain Zoom
12:33 / 13.02.02
Don't knock it til you.....um.....

nevermind.

Zoom.

[ 13-02-2002: Message edited by: Captain Zoom ]
 
 
grant
17:18 / 13.02.02
Anybody mentioned the idea that romantic love grew out of the Crusades yet?

No?
 
 
Captain Zoom
17:48 / 13.02.02
Oh my. You can't just leave us with that. Do go on.

Zoom.
 
 
The Planet of Sound
19:38 / 13.02.02
Not really the crusades, Grant, and not really love, but 'romance' but yes, medieval notions of chivalry; Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and all that.

Interesting that we're not talking about parental/familial or even platonic love, much. It's all just reciprocal altruism evolved to improve our spawning and survival potential, of course, but damn! It all feels so good...
 
 
cusm
20:10 / 13.02.02
This is actually something I've spent a lot of thought on. One of my mental hobbies is picking apart complex and difficult to understand emotions in a clinical manner to define their basic components. Love has kept me busy for a long time.

I think part of the problem is that many emotions are involved in or confused for what we have come to understand on a social level as love. The biggest may be Joy.

Joy: As in, enjoying something, deriving joy from its use, observation, or mere existance. Eg, "Sushi? I LOVE Sushi!" That doesn't mean I want to put my member in a maki roll, it means I derive great pleasure from it, and so have come to associate this level of joy with the word love.

In the romantic sense, sometimes one "loves" someone because they get great pleasure from them, they enjoy them. Actually, its "like" they are experiencing, not love. Enjoyment is not love. Enjoyment is enjoyment. In this sense, enjoying one for sexual gratification and for company or conversation are on the same ground in the aspect of "love" (or rather, "like").

Similarly, pursuit is not love. The pursuit may be intense and driven, evem passionate, but that is seeking enjoyment, or fulfilling some other need for aquisition. Obession may be potent, but it is not love, it is obsession. It may be fueled by love at some level, but that is a separate matter.

So if love is not desire or joy, what it is?
One desires to attribute this to some deep spiritual sense. Here are some definitions I've come up with:

Love is a measure of the importance placed on another. Cognitively, we use an internal metric of importance to ideas, objects, etc to rank how our responses are programmed. Placing a high level of importance on another person (or object) can be seen as love. For example, importance on the happiness and well being (the very existance, in essence) of another may be indistinguishable from what is often called "Love".

Alternatively, Love is a unity, a state where one senses that another is a part of themselves, they are one being, one spirit, one consciousness. The the rules of reaction that would be applied to self survival and happiness are applied to the other. This state may have spiritual or magickal effects, as one's perception of reality dictates that the subject is a part of their internal system, essencial for their survival, and thus actually is so to the extent that subjective perceptions of reality have a measurable spiritual effect. It is this slice of love that leads to "unconditional" or "spiritual" love, through unity.

But what is an ideal or perfect love? All of the above, and any other positive and life encouraging emotions, all at once, I believe. This seems to be what we strive for. Though I feel it is made up of many smaller components we overlook in the bliss that follows fulfillment.

Dat headshoppy enough for you?
 
 
ciarconn
23:37 / 13.02.02
"Oh, that's just Kantianism, followed by mysticism..."

For me, that's a compliment

"how does one open oneself? With legs in stirrups?"

It was a metaphorical refference.
Cusm explained it a lot better than me on the penultimate paragraph of his last post
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:55 / 13.02.02
In the immortal words of Andy Warhol:

quote: Everybody has a different idea of love. One girl I know said, "I knew he loved me when he didn't come in my mouth."
 
 
SMS
02:35 / 14.02.02
I don't really feel there is a conflict between love and reason. Love, by itself, has no control over the will; it's just an emotion. The only conflict I see is between instinct and reason, both of which have an awareness of love, and must therefore consider it before taking action.

cusm did a wonderful job of describing what love isn't, and I can't think of a better description of what it is.

It is my opinion that you *can* actively destroy your own feeling of love. In this sense, you can control it, but it requires two things: a great deal of work, and very little wisdom.
 
 
grant
18:14 / 14.02.02
Here's something brief on Romantic Love and the Crusades, and something more in depth.

I've heard that there's something to the Koran's discussions of marriage, divorce, fidelity and female beauty sort of washing into the culture which was then picked up by the Crusaders - the idea of the union of lovers goes back further in Islamic poetry than in European/Christian literature. The overtones aren't necessarily what we'd recognize as "romantic," but it's certainly straddling the divide between bawdiness and respectable procreation.
One of the strong themes in Le Morte D'Arthur is the intersection of carnality and sacredness, both in the figure of knights (who are described as both "worldly" and "pious" - spun off the Templar [crusader] ideal of the monastic soldier) and of lovers (who transgress worldly unions by responding to the divine calling of love - Tristan and Isolde vs. Mark, for instance, or Lancelot and Guinevere vs. Arthur.)

Here's a nice history on the origins of courtly love (a precursor to Romantic Love).

quote:The proponents set forward a basic
hypothesis: courtly love is a spinoff of Islamic literary forms,
run through a European filter in El-Andalusia (Muslim Spain).
Here the same zeal is present as with the Romanists. With one
exception, the Arabists below are either Islamic, were raised in
the Middle East, or are Professors of Middle Eastern Studies.
A lengthy quote will serve well as an introduction to this
school of thought:
"The bold and sensuous imagery of earthly
love dominates the mystical poetry alike of
Arab and Persian. . . [This style] of love-
lyric was destined to play a part in the
history of European history. The most
noteworthy feature of this new lyrical poetry
was the emergence of a definite literary
scheme of platonic love, combined with a
social and ethical theory of love which was
the distinctive contribution of Arabia.
Already by the end of the eighth century some
of the poets at the court of baghdad were
devoting their muse exclusively to this art
of love [italics added]."<17>

Most Arabists start off their argument with the etymology of
the word 'troubadour.'
"Taraba meant 'to sing' and sing poetry;
tarab meant 'song,' and in the spoken Arabic
of the Iberian peninsula it would have come
to be pronounced trob; the formation of the
Romance verb through the addition of the -ar
suffix would have been standard."<18>
 
 
haus of fraser
14:40 / 05.03.10
Has anyone noticed that the media always represent twins as essentially the same being: we wear the same clothes, think the same thoughts, share the same emotions, in fact in an ideal world we would live together and marry another identical pair.
Scratch that. In an ideal world we'd probably marry each other.

BEEP BEEP

Oh yes, can anyone tell me whether the programme contained a feature on twin parades, and was there any circus music? Circus music is to the twin as it is to those other freaks the clowns.
 
 
Tsuga
01:02 / 06.03.10

Circus music?
 
 
Haus Of Pain
13:11 / 12.03.10
Unless someone wants to flesh this thread out - and I don't - I'm going to move for a deletion.
 
  

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