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So...Magick? For kids?

 
  

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Babooshka
18:28 / 01.03.03
I have escaped from life many a time using magics. Wizardry can provide escape from the stickiest of situations. – Shut Up Scottish

Well, it's a matter of perspective, isn't it? (sorry – I'm enjoying this.)

I would say, if you used magickal techniques to deal with a "sticky situation", you were confronting that situation, not running away or escaping from it. You're changing the situation from sticky to smooth (like butter, baby!); sort of an alchemical process, perhaps.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
18:53 / 01.03.03
I would say, if you used magickal techniques to deal with a "sticky situation", you were confronting that situation, not running away or escaping from it. You're changing the situation from sticky to smooth (like butter, baby!); sort of an alchemical process, perhaps. #Babooshka

Explain to me what the difference is between "running" away and "power leaping" through a magical doorway. Both are escaping the sticky situation, one just more efficiently than the other.

As for confronting a situation, that is best dealt with using the mind force, or a specific confrontation scroll.

Of course I recognise that life can not be escaped physically, however with the aid of magical death it can be out run!
 
 
The Natural Way
20:06 / 01.03.03
Anyway....I think it's time to wrap this thread up. Many different opinions are represented here - but most of them are wrong. I am always interested in other people's opinions, however. But you have to prove it to me.

And I am not sure anyone's got good enough counter-evidence to do that.

I feel like I'm waving to you from a very high height.

Perhaps the Moon.

Smiling down. Good-bye...... You'll get here soon - just a little further to go. I love you. Good luck.
 
 
The Natural Way
20:08 / 01.03.03
3 Tine.
 
 
Raziel
21:03 / 01.03.03
"Many different opinions are represented here - but most of them are wrong." - Runce (3 tine)

*rolls eyes*
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
21:14 / 01.03.03


Runce be warned, some othese Barbes are very powerful Wizards, however young they all are.
 
 
Pirate Ven Will Teach You To Lambada (The Forbidden Dance)
22:04 / 01.03.03
did none of the shouters, swearers or 'i'm old enough to buy fireworks actually' respondees not even chuckle a little bit when the counter-response was a huge doggone photo?

You're really not alone.
 
 
Pirate Ven Will Teach You To Lambada (The Forbidden Dance)
22:06 / 01.03.03
By the way, the Barbelith (entity, not board) reference took a second.
My brain may be a slow little thing, but it gets there soon enough.
 
 
thedude
22:08 / 01.03.03
Shit, I think I'm in the wrong place! I thought this was a Harry Potter fan site.
 
 
penitentvandal
09:20 / 02.03.03
Well, that was all very odd. On the one hand we have some very interesting ideas about the initiate/non-initiate divide, magick as cliques, magickal elitism, etc etc, and yet on the other hand we have the whole shebang wrapped up in the most dreary, uninspiring, social-realist language y'all ever did see...Sort of like a smoked sturgeon and sour-cream sandwich made with processed white bread, or whatever that shit they call a 'bun' at MacDonalds is made of...

For the record, while I do indeed own two hats, they are rather pedestrian affairs, certainly not decorated with stars and the word 'wizzard' or anything like that, and I gave up wearing them a long time ago, because I realised I looked like a twat in 'em.

glassonion - I find it hard to believe that Grantidee could have commended Runce's 'interpretation of the Invisibles' given that Runce seems to have fallen into a very baaaaaad, depressing weltanschaung of late - so if he did, I can only assume Runce has gone through some strange trauma since. Let's hope he gets better.

Blah blah...I could end bitchily by pointing out that Runce never answered any of my actual philosophical questions and instead fell back on using glassonion to make dubious claims to some special level of authority, but I'm far too nice a boy to do anything like that...

Cheerio, darlings!
 
 
illmatic
10:53 / 02.03.03
I agree with Runce - shut it down!

But first...Scottish, it's very easy to take the piss. What's harder is to put together an intelligent arguement. Can you do this? Care to start a thread establishing most of the Magick Forum posters either are a) overly self-important b) deluded? The reality or not of magick and inflated egos that sometimes accompany it are interesting subjects, after all.

All your posts thus far (not just on this thread, elsewhere on the board) have been the equivalent of showing us yer bum - sometimes funny, sometimes not - can you do any better?
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
12:01 / 02.03.03

DO NOT TAKE ME AS A CONJUROR OF CHEAP TRICKS.

This thread is starting to belittle the importance of magics. I am dismayed.
 
 
Babooshka
14:51 / 02.03.03
What? you lot aren't the Dream Police???

Explain to me what the difference is between "running" away and "power leaping" through a magical doorway. Both are escaping the sticky situation, one just more efficiently than the other. - SUS

I don't think there's that much of a difference between the two actions, although efficiency is a good indicator. It's more a matter of how than what.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:01 / 02.03.03
I was sort of hoping that this would be some big Runcetastic bicarb-and-lemonjuice volcano of an idea, something that would sit there and fizz dully for a second while the tissue melts and then spew red frothy fun down its papier-mache sides.

Still waiting. Runce, are you sure that was the baking soda?
 
 
Quantum
08:21 / 03.03.03
Children *are* magicians. They live in a magical world peopled by spirits and fairies, imaginary friends and rituals. Then they get trained and taught that none of that is 'real' and become Runcelike. Then they (we) try and get back to that state of childlike innocence and regain the magic we lost. Why is the reality we are taught by school more real than the reality we inherently believe in?
Did you know that in Philosophy 'Common Sense' is known as Naive Realism?
Disney is The Devil, and The Beastocracy- coincidence that Invisibles villains have papier mache animal's heads? I think not...
 
 
Stone Mirror
21:01 / 03.03.03
Once, at a chess tournament which was being held while some world-crisis-or-other was going on, Bobby Fischer wandered up to a bunch of other players who were discussing that morning's newspaper. After listening for a minute or two, he asked, "What's any of this got to do with chess?"

What's any of this got to do with magick?

(And I'm more than twice Runce's estimates, as it happens. I may well have been at this longer than a number of you have been at anything.)

The only thing I've found sillier than the inception of this particular thread are the couple of "we Uber-Powerful WIZARDS(!!!) are gonna get your ass, sucker!" postings which have ensued as a result.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:41 / 04.03.03
Where is the sense?

Take a good look at this thread - where is the sense?

The. Sense.

Sorely lacking.
 
 
Sebastian
10:36 / 04.03.03
Ooohh... I haven't read this thread till this very minute. What Runce needs is an initiation. Make that an INITIATION. Actually, he is screaming for it. Maybe we can set up a magick brigade or sort of a task force for cases such as this. Are you way too fixed in your seemingly boring Universe of bouncing objects? Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawkins have said all there is to say? There is no more magick in your life since you started wanking? Well, then let us know, linger around for a while, and the walls will come tumbling down.
 
 
Smoothly
11:18 / 04.03.03
Whoah-there!...*cough...splutter*..hang on for just a minute. You really wear hats?
 
 
Smoothly
11:21 / 04.03.03
Whoah-there!...*cough...splutter*..hang on for just a minute. You really wear hats?
 
 
The Natural Way
11:42 / 04.03.03
Yes. Hats and capes.

I like it when: posters force my shit to make sense. This is a really creative thread. If only it wasn't so full of people shouting "I AM 25!"
 
 
Gary Lactus
12:34 / 07.03.03
I am 12. My hat will not unlock level six. Am I using the right hat? SHUT UP SCOTTISH, where do I find the power scroll?
 
 
Professor Silly
19:22 / 07.03.03
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law,

First off I will say that the level of territorial-emotional pissing throughout this post seems staggering.

That said, how about I try to shed some sensible light here. In case any of you wonder, I am a thirty year old professional artist with a B.S. (the S stands for Science) in pyschology (graduated with honors). Yes, I played D&D as a kid, which I think prepared me for my studies and practices in magick. I've been seriously studying Thelemic Magick (including all the works in the student curriculum for Crowley's A.'.A.'., the Hebrew language, the deities of the Egyptians, Korzybsky's general semantics, quantum physics.,) for just over five years, and I still feel I'm only scratching the surface.

Having the background in science, I don't have to worry about beliefs: I've banished them all. I have an open mind for any and every explanation concerning that which can not be measured (i.e. God, afterlife.,).

None-the-less, people have experiences...and these can not be measured...they can not be truly shared between individuals in any measurable way.
This doesn't mean that human experience has no meaning.
History shows us that certain experience affect massive changes to an individual's personality and direction. I would argue that any name from our history books represents this to a certain degree. According to some, those individuals that religions were based on represent this to the ultimate degree.

Check out the first part of Crowley's Liber ABA (Book 4) or

William James (the first American psychologist)'s Varieties of the Religious Experience

I'm very interested in these experiences. I want to know if anyone, meaning me, can force these experience to occur and reap the resultant changes. I've had just enough success to keep me going. This leads us to my final point.
It seems we have many different understandings of the very word "magic"--I use the spelling magick to differentiate from the illusionism of Blain, Copperfield,.

I use the folling definition (again, Crowley's):

"MAGICK is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.
"(Illustration: It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts within my knowledge. I therefore take "magical weapons," pen, ink, and paper; I write "incantations"--these sentences--in the "magical language" i.e. that wihch is understood by the people I wish to instruct; I call forth "spirits," such as printers, publishers, booksellers, and so forth, and constrain them to convey my message to those people. The composition and distribution of this book is thus an act of MAGICK by which I cause changes to take place in conformity with my Will.)" Liber ABA, Part Three: Magick in Theory and Practice

I realize that this puts me in the minority here, among the Chaos Magickians...and yet this doesn't make either of us wrong per se. One of the things we all strive for is balance...there's a reason why some call the tarot's "Magician" the "Juggler."

Runce might be amazed how many Americans from twentieth century history have had connections to these studies, let alone the Masons (i.e. most of our Presidents). To dismiss the possibilities without investigation constitues a prejudice...a conviction, which as the Discordians tell us creates CONVICTS.

...and for those of you who already know all of this, thank you for humoring my attempt at helping the others.

Love is the law, love under Will.
dAb
 
 
Spaniel
00:42 / 08.03.03
i am twenty five and i am into phlegm magic. It is quite chaotic when i am pissing!
 
 
penitentvandal
17:00 / 08.03.03
Where is the. Non! Sense? That's what I want to ask...

Can I just add to dAB's point here something that occured to me after his mention of Korzybski. Korzybski's name pops up time and again in any serious magick-related reading (RAW etc) not because of any actual magickal connection, but because of his theory of General Semantics, which basically holds that (and I am severely compressing complicated ideas into simple phrasing here, so be warned) the language we use to describe things governs the way we think about them, or, to put it more bluntly, our language creates our 'reality'.

Korzybski's mention here caught my eye, though, not because I've been reading about him in a magickal connection, but in terms of education - as some of y'all may know I have decided to get Quixotically involved in the world-class hames that is the British Educational System, which is one reason I quite like Runce's 'sixth form is for kids' line. As part of my officially unsanctioned wider reading, I was looking at Neal Postman's The End of Education, the final chapter of which looks at the way in which language shapes reality, and has a hefty section on Korzybski...

All of this set me thinking about education in terms of the ideas I've came across in my magickal practice: the SNAFU principle, the eight-circuit theory, etc. And I realised, once again, that these ideas we label 'magick' or 'magick-related' can not be kept in a neat little box, and apply across the board, because, as Uncle Al might have said, magick isn't just for ALL, it is ALL...

I know a guy who comes to the school I'm teaching at who's running a therapy course for young male delinquents which basically involves putting them through initiations: dumping them out in the woods with no food, far away from their friends and all the support networks they've came to rely on, and making them get food, and then cook it, and then find their way out of the woods, etc. Again: magickal theory finding its way into reality in a 'non-magickal' context. Move somewhere else, do something else, become someone else. 'There is no 'I'. Nothing 'is'.'

...which, of course, is why we're not 'mages', in the same way we're not 'gay' or 'straight' or 'young' or 'old' or 'American' or 'Muslim'. All those are just labels...

As I've been pointing out, Runce's use of the language of 'common sense' limits his imaginative landscape and makes it conform to a dull, prosaic notion of reality. It also limits our perception of where he's coming from - presumably why some posters (thisself included) immediately jumped on Runce in predictable circuit two either/or fight mode, and the more thoughtful posts (of which I would hope this could be one) have came only now, when the linguistic commands are being interrogated. It may be that Runce intended this from the get-go: I certainly find it interesting that he uses the example of his friend the MC as a representative of 'common sense', because MCing has always struck me as something of a magickal act when done well: creating a specific psychological state in the audience through the use of language. Yet at the same time the MC has taken on notions of some dubious 'street' realism, as exemplified by that dreariest of all calls to arms from a few years back, 'keep it real'.

Pah! Keep it surreal, that's what I say...I don't know fish.
 
 
glassonion
12:54 / 09.03.03
my turn again. if the 's' stands for 'science' does the 'b' still stand for 'bull'? how about shedding light and reason here equating a misunderstanding of context that the real world always thinks self-proclaimed mages are full of? [and burns them for.] any of you fucked thought or fought your way out of a wet paper bag lately? if it helps, the wet paper bag is this thread and no, you haven't.
 
 
Seth
20:47 / 09.03.03
The thought never occurred to me that you might be lying, that there is nothing behind these words. I am a strange guided principle seeking a face in the text - there is nothing except clouds. All it takes is a second to sit back and admire the beauty of all this strangeness.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:00 / 09.03.03
The wet paper bag is not this thread - it is a metaphor. It is very boring to see you proponents of 'common sense' still throwing around loaded words like is, is it not?

Or to put it another way, don't you be making any filthy prepositions to me...


Also, glassonion, the third and fourth sentences of your post make no liguistic sense whatsoever. And also, you are once again preferring to use territorial posturing in order to prove your point, rather than actually adressing your arguments. You've even used a synonym for shit (bull...) in so doing. You are a casebook in second cicuit thinking...

...are you not?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
00:32 / 10.03.03
Glassonion: the BS is Belief System. BS is the pair of glasses that colours your whole world. That is unless you have a patented Mage BS which, like VR glasses completely remakes your whole world.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:10 / 10.03.03


The archmages above are powerful in the extreme. As we can see, they are still very young and they have yet to learn that that "power" is pre-pubic and not ver good imagine.

You see?

It is good to know that some posters are 30.

Yes - where is the "nonsense"? You tell me, velvetvandal! If you can!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:35 / 10.03.03
What is thread about exactly? I'm all for taking peoples mystical magickal pretensions apart, but it's being approached in such a troll-ey manner that all we've had is pages of thread rot on both sides.

I get that the 'magic is for kids' angle is in the same vein as the recent 'comics are for kids' thread - but all its really led to is a load of people coming out of the woodwork claiming to be 25.

This forum is often considered as the 'ghetto' forum, and that certainly isn't going to change if we fill it with pointless rambling threads like this. If this thread were in the Head Shop it probably would have been deleted after a few posts, or shaped into a coherent toic for debate. I don't see why any different rules should apply here.

If your intention is to critique the impulse that leads people to have an interest in 'magick' , then that's all well and good. If the original poster were to respond with a clear argument on outlining their position, which other posters could then agree with or rebuke, then that would probably make for a decent thread. Otherwise I'd suggest this thread be deleted or moved to the conversation.
 
 
illmatic
12:28 / 10.03.03
I too would move for this thread being deleted where it not for the photo above, that's fucking great. Clearly mages of great power.

I suspect Runce's inital impulse was just to take the piss - see above, it was started on a Friday night so drunkness can't be ruled out. Everybody (including me) reacting with predictable defensiveness. Interested to tease out why this might be so- is it because there's very few areas where we can talk about Magick seriously, without fear of ridicule? So when it does occur we blow up a bit, maybe. I don't think anybody whose being trollish here wants a "proper" chat, just want to prod a bit and get a reaction. Which is fair enough but gets a bit boring after a while.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:23 / 10.03.03
Yep, the silliness has run its course. But what a course! Along the way we've met mages of great and terrible power; heard whisperings of the deep and foreboding "level 6"; enjoyed the boys in their hats; tipped our hats to the common-or-garden familiar; started a sub-thread entitled "How old are most wizards?" and imposed a heck-load of order on a smattering of stupid-chaos. Wonderful! And Velvetvandal's laid down the truth about "isness", how to write properly and low-level, second-circuit thinking! Great! I can't wait for glassonion's swift and speedy counter-argument!

C'mon, get down off 'a' yr high-horse and giggle like a grown up! Nobody was supposed to get hurt.....



Y'know: for kids!
 
 
thedude
15:16 / 10.03.03
Goddammit! I never claimed to be 25, I bloody am! If I wanted to seem cool and all ascended master and shit, I would have claimed to be 21 and into all this shit since I was 3 or something. Sorry, had a bit of a drink this afternoon. But pretty much, yeah, what he said.
 
 
penitentvandal
15:49 / 10.03.03
Runc - you've been had about those kids. The one on the left of the picture (our left) is an all-powerful mage, but the kid on the right's just a chancer. Look. You can see it in his eyes...

This has been a strange, drunken brawl of a thread, but in the best drunken brawl tradition it's actually been rather fun and I have to say I've found myself rather liking all the participants.

However, I would like to point out that I dislike the assertion that I've 'laid down the truth' here, as obviously I think truth is a fairly relative concept. Indeed, if we consider the aforementioned thesis of Korzybski...(continues on in this vein for several loooong paragraphs, before ending with vaguely camp remark...)
 
  

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