Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Head Shop >

Genderfuck you.

Page: 1(2)3 4 5 6

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:11 / 22.01.02

How about Rosa's recommended reading?

Jacob Hale

14:13 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
I'm aware that there are many ways that a lover may disappoint. I was trying to deal with the disappointment derived from a genderfuck.

Or the exhilaration? I don't think it's overly naive to question the supposition that every "gender surprise" will necessarily result in a "disappointment"...

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:14 / 22.01.02

Well, indeed.

(edited because I was taking Hale out of context)

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Rain ]

pointless and uncalled for

14:18 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:

Or the exhilaration? I don't think it's overly naive to question the supposition that every "gender surprise" will necessarily result in a "disappointment"...

Sorry, I didn't realise that the question "How would you feel?" carried a supposition.

What would be a better way for me to have asked about peoples emotional reactions?

14:21 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
Sorry, I didn't realise that the question "How would you feel?" carried a supposition.

Hey, don't get snarly. You used the term "disappointment"; all I'm saying is, being surprised that someone's gender orientation doesn't match up to (one's assumption of their) genital type may not be a wholly negative experience. Again, the sodding "Crying Game"...

pointless and uncalled for

14:23 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
[QB]

You used the term "disappointment"; QB]

Not in the original post I didn't.

pointless and uncalled for

14:28 / 22.01.02

Reviver?

14:28 / 22.01.02

posting a reply 'cos page 2 wasn't working and i'm hoping this wil fix any problems...

14:37 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:

Or the exhilaration? I don't think it's overly naive to question the supposition that every "gender surprise" will necessarily result in a "disappointment"...

I didnt consider this. personally, I think it depends on the degree of indifference one has to clinging to thier preferred sexual partner (for example, someone with a penis) as their only sexual partner. if you feel a definitive revulsion for the thought of having sex with someone with female genitalia, then the outcome would be obvious. however, if, like many people, you do have a preference but dont have an absolute aversion to any set then this is possible

....which category do you think most people fall into?

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: bitchiekittie ]

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:40 / 22.01.02

Excellent.

Right, let's try to summarise.

Wisdom - there seems to be no way that you can be absolutely sure that the beautiful girl across the table from you isn't packing a derringer. Just one of the dangers of modern dating, clearly. But if you are fundamentally repulsed by the idea of "woman" being used to mean anything other than "breasts untouched by the surgeon's knife, and a vagina that is as old as her tongue and younger than her teeth" then...well, that's your choice, as long as you keep your perversion to yourself.

But we live in a world where, although there is a *hell* of a lot of work to be done, and it will probably never get done, things simply don't have to be that simple. Jane Austen heroines can wear dresses and long for balls. Girls can become boys, and that can mean anything from declaring their boyhood to a variety of different modificatory proceddures. Boys can do likewise.

Sexual characteristics can be taken up or, in some cases, briefly adopted, used to set off an outfit or exchanged between people. Temporary and permanent prostheses and other technologies can be used to fuck about with the starting kit.

Hopefully, at some point, the world will catch up with people's capacity and desire to alter the ways they appear in and interact with it. And part of that process is ideas like "but what if you thought it was a *girl*!" are tested and critiqued.

14:42 / 22.01.02

hmmm

does it matter?

pointless and uncalled for

14:43 / 22.01.02

I was already way ahead of people on this one.

In fact I was anticipating some kind of reply in the positive.

Guess I misunderstood the kink potential of the 'lithers.

Truthfully speaking I was trying to avoid an implication that such an experience would be negative because of the presence of bisexuals on the board. Not that this is to imply that this is something that they would want or be more likely to like but more to say that there would be a raised chance that there would be someone on the board that would like this.

Sadly my inability to communicate interupted this.

I need a proxy poster who can initiate threads for me without forgetting to requalify against implications/suppostitions/etc.

pointless and uncalled for

14:48 / 22.01.02

You've misunderstood me again Haus.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:52 / 22.01.02

No, Wisdom, I have understood you rather too well.

Genderfucking need not be a bad thing, for either party. Genderfucking need not be a transitive verb.

These basic truths we hold not to be self-evident, but certainky to be bleedin' obvious.

Still, perhaps my tiny head is too tiny. Please explain more clearly.

15:11 / 22.01.02

By Haus: quote:Well, exactly. I mean, you meet some hot little number, go dancing, go back to hir place and, just because they happened to be kitted out with different plumbing than you expected, you go all scared and "don't make me gay! Please don't make me gay!"...
...and that's their problem?

It may be hard to believe, haus, but the vision of a tumescid penis (or a flacid one, for that matter) might be really a turn off to some men (the hetero kind of). If someone had the hability to deviate your attention from that little (or enormous, for that matter) detail till the last minute, congrats to them! But that would be all they would get from me.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:14 / 22.01.02

Good of you to clear that up, Jade, but what's your point, exactly?

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

15:16 / 22.01.02

Wouldn't the term "genderfucking" suggest that the person doing the "fucking" has some kind of wrongful intent?

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:19 / 22.01.02

Surely it's as ambiguous as the word 'fuck' - we use it to mean both bad and good things. In this sense I think it means bad things are being done to rigid concepts of gender. But good things, more literally related to the word 'fucking', may ensue.

15:20 / 22.01.02

By wisdom Of Idiots: quote:Say for some reason someone pulls a completely unexpected genderfuck on you. You're about to get down to business when you realise that the person your about to get down with is not of the gender that you thought they were and by dint of sexuality would not want to have sex with them. On top of that it transpires that the person intentionally masked their gender from you and knew that thier gender was contrary to your desires.

[/]How would you feel?[/i]

I think I'm answering WOI's initial question here. But isn't this, how we'd say, obvious?

(edited to say that it was also kind of a knee-jerk reaction to the meme "there must be something wrong with this heteros", ever so popular around here)

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: Marquis de Jade ]

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

15:27 / 22.01.02

That's nice . Although there may be other things about the ravishing creature with the green evening dress and the come-hither balls than whether you are attracted to their penis or not.

Although "laudatory" is quite a nice response. As if it were a skilful card trick...

Although although, have you considered that maybe you just haven't met the right penis yet? See Flyboy's post above about the need for specificity...

But, thing is, Wisdom, the "how do you feel?" idea, and the claim that you were predicting the presence of bisexuals (who are statistically more likely to go for transgendered people, guys. That's a scientific fact) is somewhat gainsayed by the fact that you specify that the gender they do have (which it might be considered, is theirs to define rather than yours, hence the distinction of genitalia and gender - the idea of "physical gender" is a far more complex one than I think you realise) is an unattractive one to the other party.

I just can't believe that I'm the only person here who has met a ravishing creature in a white dress at a party, gone home and found out only halfway through that they are in fact the Pope.

15:29 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
Not in the original post I didn't.

That'll be why I quoted the one in which you did.

Christ, and you claim Haus actively tries to miss the point...

15:29 / 22.01.02

By Haus: quote:Although although, have you considered that maybe you just haven't met the right penis yet?
Well, who knows?

Although I have the feeling that, my friend, this hypothesis shall remain in the realm of hypothesis.

pointless and uncalled for

15:30 / 22.01.02

quote: predicting the presence of bisexuals

That was based on the fact that Captain Zoom has identified himself as bisexual.

pointless and uncalled for

15:34 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:

That'll be why I quoted the one in which you did.

And that would be where I strayed into personal opinion.

(Edited to add that I can see where that my be a confused element of that post and probably deserves some clarification.)

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: Wisdom of idiots ]

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:36 / 22.01.02

Jade: answering not only for yourself, but for "the hetero kind" in general (incorrectly, I might add), with a nice little swipe at Haus to boot (what is he, gay or something?). Had you paid a little bit more attention to what you quoted Haus saying, might it have occurred to you that, once the shock discovery is made, there could be some reactions somewhere in between carrying on and getting wicky-wicky-wicky anyway, and "go[ing] all scared and "don't make me gay! Please don't make me gay!"".

15:39 / 22.01.02

I just go by their lack of adam's apple. And, actually, the fooling around stage provides enough tactile proof that I'm with a woman.

15:40 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:

And that would be where I strayed into personal opinion.

(Edited to add that I can see where that my be a confused element of that post and probably deserves some clarification.)

Thanks for clarifying. Can I explore that personal opinion further, or are you keen that I confine myself to tackling the question at the start of the thread?

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

15:40 / 22.01.02

Wisdom, I am honestly trying not to take the piss here.

One, bisexuals. The transgendered. No necessary unusual attraction. Possibly a greater degree of flexibility. Possibly not. For example, a bisexual friend of mine might like skinny women and plumptious men. Doesn't mean they will think a skinny man with a massive arse is necessarily a best-of-breed solution.

Two, I think the question as you asked it had lots of implications which you did not really think of. Like, for example, that the other party may not be "disguising their true gender". Judith Butler posits that gender is performative - that it is created by actions within and upon the world one grows up into. Which, sadly, does not mean you can wake up one day, decide to alter your response and switch gender immediately, but does mean that by critiquing the performance of gender you can destabilise binary concepts of "assigned" gender. As John Wayne might say, "it takes a lot more than a penis to make you a man". And you don't necessarily have to cut it off at the root to stop being one, or vice versa.

I don't think that occurred to you in your opening post, and accusing people of misunderstanding or perverting the thread by looking at some of the programming behind (and indeed within) it is not the way forward.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

15:45 / 22.01.02

Incidentally, I think that the other complication is that this is the Head Shop. If it was a "please respond precisely to this question", inviting answers like Jade's (never date a woman with an Adam's Apple ho ho ho it was funny on Friends and it's funny now), it probably fits better in the Conversation as a sort of transgendered "What do you find attractive in a man/woman?" thread.

15:50 / 22.01.02

I find myself agreeing unreservedly with Haus. Bloody hell.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:51 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Marquis de Jade:
I just go by their lack of adam's apple. And, actually, the fooling around stage provides enough tactile proof that I'm with a woman.

The first comment demonstrates, like we needed proof, that you know sweet FA about some of the medical/cosmetic processes that transpeople may go through. You might as well have said "I go by the breasts and lack of facial hair".

As for the second - surely the question WofI is asking relies on the idea that by that stage, it's too late? IE, say that you get chatting to a pretty girl in a club, sit down in a dark corner, get to kissing and caressing, slide your hand up her skirt only to encounter Mr John Thomas (I apologise for being crass here) - do you feel wronged/violated? Would you want to keep it quiet? Say you'd already become friends with this person - would you consider staying friends with this person once you'd explained to them that your sexuality prevented you from taking it any further?

15:55 / 22.01.02

quote:Jade: Answering not only for yourself, but for "the hetero kind" in general (incorrectly, I might add)

yeah, perhaps. If that's what you got from the text, perhaps I expressed myself badly. So to make it clear, I am talking for myself here.

quote:with a nice little swipe at Haus to boot (what is he, gay or something?)

This is what you want to read. I was defending myself as an heterosexual rather than trying to dismiss Hau's arguments based on whatever he is. I'm not a bigot.

I exaggerated a little bit, so what, Haus does the holier than thou bickering thing all the time. and he is a big boy, surely doesn't need you coming to help him all the time ugly Jade has an altercation with him. Sheesh.

15:59 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Marquis de Jade:
This is what you want to read. I was defending myself as an heterosexual

Entirely off-topic, but I'm interested in why you felt the need...

Regrettable Juvenilia

16:04 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Marquis de Jade:
I was defending myself as an heterosexual

Defending yourself against what?

quote:and he is a big boy, surely doesn't need you coming to help him all the time ugly Jade has an altercation with him. Sheesh.

What on earth makes you think I'm speaking on Haus' behalf? As someone who identifies basically as heterosexual, but obviously has a broader range of definition for "people not the same gender/sex as me" than you do, I genuinely disagreed with what you were saying... Incidentally, next time you want to speak just for yourself, you might want to omit the bit where you make explicitly statements on behalf of others...

16:06 / 22.01.02

About the adam's apple thing: It has worked so far, no unpleasant surprises. Resist the temptation of leveling the dabate with sitcom references/quotes, Haus. It's silly.

Oh,and if I'm not updated with the latest cosmetic cirurgical advances in transgendering, I'm really not to blame. I have other areas of interest.
About the other questions:

do you feel wronged/violated?

I think the other person should have shown hir respect for me telling in advance about hir appendages.

Would you want to keep it quiet?

yes. "Sorry, this won't do"

Say you'd already become friends with this person - would you consider staying friends with this person once you'd explained to them that your sexuality prevented you from taking it any further?

Not with someone that wasn't willing to be honest about it first.

I'm leaving the office now (damn). Hopefully tomorrow this thread won't have died down.

Page: 1(2)3 4 5 6