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since we're talking about it so much lately: trans education 101

  
  

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Disco is My Class War
05:10 / 26.01.02
Ganesh said:

"Also, I don't think it's a bad idea for psychiatrists to be the specialists charged with prescribing and monitoring the hormones, as these can have unpredictable effects, particularly on mood."

Yes, maybe, well, no. Endocrinologists usually prescribe hormones for ftm's because of the necessary monitoring of lipid levels and bloodwork, plus effects on the liver. Unless you have a 'gender work team' (as the Harry Benjamin Standards submit as an ideal situation) you're not going to have access to both, I'd imagine.

And also,

"It's taken me a while to work out which pronoun to use in the medical records. Basically, in the 'Personal History' section, when describing the individual's early life and upbringing, I refer to them in terms of physical birth sex; everywhere else, I refer to them in terms of "chosen" gender. I use their favoured name but usually make a single reference to birth name in the background section, to avoid confusion."

I'm not sure precisely what context you're talking about this in regard to (actually treating trannies in practice or simply writing about them) but is it possible to ask your patients what kind of gender pronoun usage they'd prefer to be used in medical records?

"I feel quite sorry for transgender people because the "success" of their transformation is inevitably judged, by the outside world, on the degree to which they're able to "pass" as their chosen gender - based on fairly stereotypical notions of femininity and masculinity."

Yeah; I think what you're getting at is the GID/DSM IV or so-called 'Harry Benjamin' standard of talking about transsexuality. The positive thing (and a good reason why you should never feel sorry for me, 'nesh *g*) is that spaces do seem to be opening up where doctors and trans-and-allied communities are celebrating the diversity of how people want to transition, rather than being stuck to a code of 'you must pass and if you don't, you've failed'.

And a big 'you're welcome' to people who appreciate me starting this thread and thanks for the good luck calls, although actually I feel pretty ambivalent about the thread now. It all feels a little close to home.

(edited 'cause there was a massive possible misunderstanding just up there somewhere.)

[ 26-01-2002: Message edited by: Rosa d'Ruckus ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
05:24 / 26.01.02
as a point of interest: the trans issue did not come up at the gig i organised last week. the rep from justice for women agreed to my request for a discussion on the issue/their attitudes, which i'll post on barbelith for anyone who's interested.

terminology is my main sticking point. i understand, rosa, about simply asking transpeople how they would like to be referred as, but quite frankly i feel quite awkward/stupid in asking. and if someone id's primarily but not exclusively as a certain gender, what then? this may seem - and possibly is - a dumb question. but i have been asking this in various forums for a while and have not got an answer.
 
 
Bill Posters
06:42 / 26.01.02
IMHO the words s/he to = 'he' or 'she' and hir to = 'his' or 'her' could be introduced into everyday spoken and written language. (I presume those who use them on this site got them via Robert Anton Wilson or possibly Timothy Leary.) But like, that's an ideal world type answer so possibly not that useful in practical terms.

(Message edited twice due to brain haemorrhagingly large hangover.)

[ 26-01-2002: Message edited by: Bill Posters ]

[ 26-01-2002: Message edited by: Bill Posters ]
 
 
Disco is My Class War
07:39 / 26.01.02
I don't know, sfd. At all. I'm still going by 'she', just to clarify, and I'll let y'all know when it's not appropriate anymore.

But there's no easy answer and it depends on the person involved, eh. I know the confused feeling it produces; a couple of years ago when an ftm friend transitioned, I found it incredibly difficult to ask about pronouns; I pretty much just assumed he'd want to be referred to as 'he' after I found out he was transitioning. Also, he changed his name -- twice. It's always difficult, especially when people aren't visibly easily pin-downable; far less so when and if the T or oestrogen kicks in and people start to slide under the radar a little more. But I think asking is very good etiquette. For example, if I hadn't already said, you coulda asked me and I would *so* not have minded. But then I'm really very at the beginning of this and it's not like I look like a guy, or am taking hormones. It may change, depending on how obsessed I am with talking about trans stuff in general and/or how sick of talking about it I am.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:56 / 26.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ria:
I noticed that they referred to Max as "she" rather than "he". it always bugs me when the media does that. in the US at least journalists make it a formal pratice to use pronouns for pre-op TS'es based on their "birth" sex. archaic and insulting IMHO.

Well, to be fair, I was quoting from the Radio Times, so they can perhaps be forgiven for not being up to date on gender theory. I'll watch the show tomorrow and let you know what they call him by the end of it...
 
 
Ganesh
12:15 / 26.01.02
Ria: Schizophrenia (and other, related psychotic illnesses) can present in different individuals in a variety of ways - and the "raving madman" stereotype is way off the mark. They certainly don't all stand out from the crowd.

Rosa: I'm talking about the initial psychiatric interview; it's generally recorded under a set of sub-headings ('Past History', 'Family History', 'Current Circumstances', etc.). Given that one section relates to the individual's early life - and therefore their birth sex - I use the birth sex pronoun in that particular paragraph. Everywhere else, I use whatever pronoun they prefer - and yes, I do ask.

I'm hopeful that the notion of "passing" is fading out amongst those professionals who actually deal with transsexuals (although a male-to-female patient of mine recently complained that she'd been pressured by the Charing Cross people to wear "frumpy Laura Ashley dresses" rather than the vaguely fetish-orientated stuff she preferred) but it's still a common yardstick amongst the general public. Almost every conversation I've had about transsexuality has included elements of X being better than Y because "you'd almost never guess" - the implication being that those who fail to pass were somehow wrong to pursue transformation...
 
 
Ria
18:25 / 26.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Loz' Sweet Exile:

Well, to be fair, I was quoting from the Radio Times, so they can perhaps be forgiven for not being up to date on gender theory.

yes. well how typical of them though. actually that gives me the idea of e-mailing a complaint to them about their terminology.
 
 
Ria
18:28 / 26.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Ria: Schizophrenia (and other, related psychotic illnesses) can present in different individuals in a variety of ways - and the "raving madman" stereotype is way off the mark.

Ganesh, I have met enough people with schizophrenia to realize this. suppose some of my irritation comes about my friends false diagnosis with schizophrenia by a therapist he had seen for *months*, unbelievably enough. he has Asperger's so he does act a little odd. he does not have schizophrenia. (he did not end up insitutionalized as a result though luckily for him.) it boggles me that anyone would think that he does. so you see my jumpiness when it comes to the topic.

[ 26-01-2002: Message edited by: Ria ]
 
 
Ganesh
11:46 / 27.01.02
Sure. I've seen several Aspergers people misdiagnosed on account that their odd behaviour can initially appear similar to the initial "withdrawal" stage of schizophrenia. Over months, though, the "therapist" (and I'm assuming he/she was a psychiatrist with at least some previous experience) really should have gathered sufficient information to establish a more correct understanding of their behaviour.

All of which, while helping me understand your viewpoint, doesn't necessarily invalidate my own point about generalising. I repeat that not all psychotic individuals are "barn-door" obvious. As an exercise, try substituting the word "transsexuals" for "schizophrenics" in the following paragraph

quote:Ganesh, maybe I have spent a lot of time around schizophrenics (I mean this literally, not flippantly) but I fail to see how they could avoid standing out.

and understand why this sort of statement tends to make me a little shirty...
 
 
Ria
17:10 / 27.01.02
that depends on whether you mean people who have a TS inclination or people who have actually transitioned.

Ganesh, I will start a new thread and we can jettison the TG content and begin anew there.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:29 / 28.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ria:
yes. well how typical of them though. actually that gives me the idea of e-mailing a complaint to them about their terminology.

Well, I watched the program and they actually did get it right and with hardly any of the "dance freak dance!" of past years, so a big hearty yay for me, though not exactly telling me anything new. They did seem to do lots of filming of him in a bra and pants though...
 
 
Ria
13:55 / 31.01.02
I watched a (literally) award-winning Canadian tv MTF documentary and found it condescending, the unseen narrator (who sounded bemused) speaking for the subject when she could have spoken for herself.

possibly not any worse than other documentaries on general subjects though.
 
 
grant
16:29 / 31.01.02
Documentaries are notoriously artificial.

So, I want some more education. I want to know if it's possible to be considered TG without changing anything (or intending to change anything) on the physique. Maintaining the plumbing, but swapping societal roles.

Or is that only *theoretically* possible, or an instance of "drag" or "passing" rather than "genuine"?

(sorry for all the "quotes" up "there.")
 
 
alas
17:41 / 31.01.02
isn't what grant describes denoted by trans-sexual?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:41 / 01.02.02
Short answer, grant: yes.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:41 / 01.02.02
Okay, now I can answer properly, because I've finished work for the day and whatever.

"Or is that only *theoretically* possible, or an instance of "drag" or "passing" rather than "genuine"?"

Well, I don't know. It all depends on who you talk to and what investments they have: the Brandon Teena case (where he was female-born and didn't have surgery but passed) was claimed by lesbians as 'a lesbian who had to pass as a man so she could fuck women'. Which is ridiculous: Teena referred to himself as a man. And then again, other people would say that this is just cross-dressing and not 'proper' transsexuality; that the condition of transsexuality is surgery.

But really, it's up to the individual. It's definitely not 'theoretical', there are heaps of cases of people who have passed and do pass incredibly successfully in their chosen gender. Sometimes involuntarily, sometimes not. Also, I'm not sure where the boundaries lie between 'medical' interventions on embodiment and prostheses like breast-binding or packing or electrolysis and growing one's hair or tying back; some ftm's just strap and pack for their entire lives.

(Definitions of the above listed strategies may follow when I have moer time... gotta split.)
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:41 / 01.02.02
Originally, 'transgender' was used to refer to biological men who identified/lived as women without medical intervention, to distinguish them both from cross-dressers and transexuals. The term is now pretty controversial, some feel is is just used by people who want to "play" with gender, who are appropriating transexual experience, etc., for others it is a neutral-ish coalition term for various communities/identities, while others (i.e. Kate Bornstein) have more of a 'we're all transgendered' line. My short answer would be, it depends who you are talking to, and what you mean by transgendered.

BTW, Rosa, I think you are simplifying Brandon Teena a little...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
23:09 / 02.02.02
Yeah, you're right. Actually I was simplifying everything. Errr. Hard not to simplify when you're writing posts on the run at work.

And it's kind of off-topic, anyhow, so if you want the complex version, go read either Femakle Masculinities by Judith Halberstam, or a chapter in Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism, by Pat Califia.
 
  

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